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Watcher – if you’re out there, I hope you will receive this message the way it is intended – not as a criticism. I’ve talked to you a little, here and on the chat, and I respect you and enjoy your company as a member of this community. This is in regards to the discussion on the Beacon of Hope thread.
I know you had invested a lot in the Superstar contest. I know that you had asked a lot of questions, clarified a lot of grey areas in the rules. I know that you put A LOT of effort into the development of your item. And I can see why you might be frustrated that a number of items that did not seem to “follow the rules” made it to the top 32, and that there seemed to be mixed messages from the judges at times.
But I hope you’ll rethink your position on distancing yourself from the boards.
Keep a few things in mind; this is a new thing for the judges as well as the rest of us, and I think they’ve acknowledged that they’ve made a couple of errors along the way. They are however, pretty respected gaming professionals and designers – that doesn’t mean we need to agree with all their choices and reasoning, but I think we need to respect that they might have an eye for these sort of things, might be seeing things beyond just the mechanical and technical issues.
Also keep in mind that this competition was HARD. There were 858 entries – or about a 3.7% chance of making the top 32. And of course the selection process is going to be subjective to a certain degree. I was very disappointed that I didn’t make the cut, but I have to acknowledge that at least 30 of the 32 chosen items were better than mine – and as for those last two … well, I trust the judge’s opinion over my own biased one.
This community is probably one of the few where you can have such a dialogue with the staff, designers, and professionals. This is a good thing. Sure, there might be differences of opinion, and sometimes comments may be construed as condescending, but I for one would prefer to see this sort of openness continue – and take advantage of it! Sure, don’t worship blindly, but listen to what these guys say, talk to them when you can, and I think you’ll learn a thing or two … and just maybe do better the next time they run one of these comps.
I don't know Wolfgang, but I don't think he was trying to dismiss your opinion. I think he was trying to give an insight into his reasoning on this item
Anyway … I hope you decide to stick around, and I'll see you around here or on the chat soon.
Man, I really dug Watcher's item and I can understand his indignity.... I hope he comes back.
On the other hand, I've been a competitor, spent more than a decade presenting myself and quite literally slugging it out against others--and a guy just needs to buckle down and swallow stuff like this, then get up, brush himself off, and kick ass the next time.
Well, Watcher, cheers! We'll miss you dude.
Director of Narrative
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Yeah, man. Don't get tender. I was pissy for a bit at first, so I feel you, but that is no reason to ditch this awesome community. You've obviously been interesting enough for us to give a s%*~ about your mindset to call out to you. Don't let us down because of a contest. There are more important things you can contribute.
I think everyone goes thru a phase where they think they've done the right thing only to get slapped down by the editors/judges. Hell, I had a breakdown in the "Black Hole/Critique My Query" Dungeon Mag threads about 1 1/2 years ago. I thought I had all the bases covered (cool location, twist on a monster, blablabla) and then the form letter rejection came in an email. I freaked out. Its IS ok to be hurt for a while, but you cant let that stop you. Do keep reading these forums! Come back after a bit and try another thing. These guys are having contests out the yingyang.
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What was Watcher's item, anyway?
On another note: I was a little pissed at first (approximately five minutes), but then realized that making the top 32 is sort of like winning the lottery. I never win the lottery (except when they do those f#!%ing random searches at the airport), so I gave the whole situation a big "meh", and proceeded to ask for constructive criticism on my entry. No big deal.
I agree with a lot of what you said Watcher - it did feel like mechanics was being emphasized a bit more than the results would seem to show. I think that message was probably not meant for you and I who are stronger on the mechanics than the norm (no offense to anyone else).
I fully agree with Mothman here - we would be very sad to lose you, I'm always impressed with your posts.
So give a good growl or scream, and lets dig into the countries when they come up :)
First off, a shout out to Mothman. For sage advice, but more importantly for caring about strangers. The world doesn’t see that enough. To run with the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Theme, to quote Gene Wilder, “So shines a good deed, in a weary world.” But having said that, I’ll cut the drama. One only is allowed so much drama and then you need to deal with disappointment maturely, and that’s where I am now. After all, life doesn’t stop having it’s disappointments just because you feel indignant about one in particular. As you, Kruelaid, Daigle, Drunken Nomad, have all pointed out- you have to dust yourself off, get back up, and get your game face back on.
I’m also in EST, so I wrote that at 12:30 am, and I’ve been running on 5 to 6 hours of sleep all week. Not just because of the contest, but I’ve been guilty of lurking on the boards when I should be getting a normal amount of rest. Add playing in one face to face Feng Shui game (set in the Resident Evil universe), an Amber PBeM that I am neglecting, and a bi-weekly Runelords face to face game (which has been going awesome, my people love Burnt Offerings), and my job which is estimating and competitively bidding on building materials to General and Mechanical Contractors for commercial construction. I’m all over the place, and you get emotional when you string yourself out long enough.
I’m a strange hybrid in that I love writing and role-playing over game mechanics, but my job is dissecting technical specifications and pouring over blueprints with an eye for detail. I’m like a chameleon that can’t quite find the mood.
Kruelaid! I got it back together, thanks for the praise.
Daigle Spot on. If you care enough to call me out, apparently there is a place at the Paizo Bar for me. I’d be a fool to give up my seat once I carved a niche for myself in the community.. So I’ll seeya Tuesday night.
Drunken Nomad thanks for the empathy. I got punch drunk on sleep deprivation and caffeine. I hear ya too. I’m not the first guy who thought he just re-invented the wheel only to find out the market is flooded with ‘tires’ and the people are actually going nuts for pogo-sticks.
Eldritch Mr. Shiny you’ll find my item in the Losing Items thread that I started in the RPG Superstar General Forum. It’s a big a$$ post because I was cocky enough to write design notes on my 200 word item. :) You see, Ancientsensi may talk a big game, but I only I was ready with my acceptance speech! It had built in humility and everything (which I cut out, but the design notes are there).
It was good item, but I see the issues with it.. It sounds dry and it’s dangerously close to a plot device no matter how much I tried to balance the mechanics. Essentially I’m pulling off Sensitive to Psychic Impressions from the original AD&D Psionics by tapping into an application of Legend Lore, and like 35 other slobs, I didn’t think anybody else would try a ‘divination’ item.
Hey, Watcher, I'm not Wolfgang, but I hope you'll stay around a bit. I can definitely see why you think Wolf was talking down at you, even though I am sure that he was not.
All of the things that you listed in you post, and all of the things that judges emphasized in their posts to the forums, played a part in our selection process.
From 855 we narrowed the field to 71 items we thought rose above the pack in one way or another. Some had very strong mechanics. Others had interesting flavor, or a novel form. Very few items were perfect in all regards. There are a lot of finalists with excellent game applications for their items but useless, superfluous "lore" sections. Others have great names and everything going for them, but are undercosted.
All of the items, more than anything else, had to be interesting and cool in the minds of the judges. That's the first and most important criteria. If an items is mechanically brilliant but bone dull it is not the work of an RPG Superstar.
Perfection is a goal, but it is not something that is required in an amateur contest. People will get better and sharper as the contest goes on, or they will find themselves out of the contest.
Your concerns about prerequisites are valid. That is a good criteria by which to measure an item's quality. But it is not the only criteria, and some rank more highly when it comes to judging which item should advance over another.
That's all Wolf was saying, and I hope you understand our points of view.
First of all, Wolf didn’t sound bad at all. I was being bitter. I read a lot of staff posts, including the consultants (like Wolfgang and Clark), and he’s always one of the most laid back people.
I also recognize that I was bringing a lot of heat down on Rennie for the Beacon, Alex for Talisman, and Sam for the Migrus Locker. I know that they’ve be selected and tearing them down now doesn’t change that. Particularly when they have to be diplomatic in order to garner votes. Unlike debating with Nick Logue and Steve Greer (just as an example), it’s not fair because right now they are in the Court of Public Opinion and trying to get a “job”.
So my apologies for that and to them. Let’s talk about the contest and what we can learn.
I do understand your point of view. I’m not a professional, but I don’t think you have to be in order to understand what you’re saying.
To reflect on how I felt last night and what you’re saying now, I’m suggesting you have two different issues happening in the First Round-
1.) Following the directions and making a good item.
2.) Getting into the mind set of what the Judges are looking for most.
Number One is absolutely part of the contest, no question about it. However, ask yourself “Is Number Two part of the contest? Or is that something that comes about from trying to accomplish Number One?” Let me go back to what you just said, ”All of the items, more than anything else, had to be interesting and cool in the minds of the judges. That's the first and most important criteria.” (SNIP) ”But it is not the only criteria, and some rank more highly when it comes to judging which item should advance over another.”
Bear in mind, I’m not talking fair or unfair here. The contest must move forward. I’m discussing this purely from the learning experience angle, which might help in a future contest or even your follow-up post mortem document.
Was the most important criteria identified? Or were all criteria identified as of equal importance? If the most important criteria was spelled out, was it as clear as you have made it above? (Not a rhetorical questions, but you don’t necessarily have to answer them, I’m just conceding that maybe it was and I missed it)
Now what did bug the piss out of me that had nothing to do with the Judges, is that you had a lot of posters jumping up and saying “You shouldn’t need to ask those questions. It should be obvious. Follow the directions. They shouldn’t need to spoon feed you. If you have to ask those questions you’re not an RPG Superstar!”
To a degree they have a point, but they miss a subtlety.
Is the Round about making the best item-
Or is it about anticipating what the judges might like best? Because those are very different goals that lead to similar, but not exactly the same results.
Example:
“You have to make an item. Here are the format rules. Here are the criteria. Everything must be satisfied.” That produces result ‘X’ from some contestants.
Versus..
“You have to make an item. Here are the format rules. Here are the criteria. Everything must be satisfied, but this one specific criterion will trump the other criteria.” THAT, Erik, will produce result ‘Z’ from some contestants, because the judge’s bias is identified and compensated for (in a positive way).
Easy summation: Are we judging the quality of the writing on it’s own merits, OR- judging whether the contestant knows the RPG business well enough that they have the instinct to fall back on an editor to compensate for not meeting all the criteria if they have to write something really attention getting. :) Those are not the same!
Because not meeting all the criteria might not have been seen as an option for some people, so they sacrificed getting your attention in order to meet the other demands. If they hadn’t, you might have gotten more entries that fell into category of stuff you really liked.
Well, I’ve belabored this enough. Thanks for engaging me in discussion on the other thread. I welcome your reply if you have one.
So give a good growl or scream, and lets dig into the countries when they come up :)
Majuba! I'm here!
But pause for thought.. We have to be fair to the 32. We'll dig into them for quality, but not just for the sake of digging. (I know you're not saying that, but I'm making the remark just in case anybody gets the wrong idea). They're getting their chance, we need to honor that and see what they do with it.
Anyway, I replied to Erik. He's got big shoulders and he can take it, so he's a legitimate target. :) Maybe he'll favor me with a reply.
Good job, Watcher. Your class humbles me. It's good to have you back.
Good job, Watcher. Your class humbles me. It's good to have you back.
You are too kind HH!
And Chris M? You flatter me. Don't let it fall into the hands of low levels.
I love the clarity, tact, lucidity and comraderie of the Paizo forums. There are eloquent posters here.
Kobold Press
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Easy summation: Are we judging the quality of the writing on it’s own merits, OR- judging whether the contestant knows the RPG business well enough that they have the instinct to fall back on an editor to compensate for not meeting all the criteria if they have to write something really attention getting. :) Those are not the same!
Apologies for my Beacon reply; I think I may be expressing myself poorly here.
My earlier point was this: "judging the quality of the writing on its own merits" is part of the contest. So is "knowing how to win over an audience". They aren't mutually exclusive, and all the question threads that Clark and Erik answered about the rules were (to my mind) missing one important element. A Superstar has to know the rules, but that's never enough.
The audience in the first round was three judges who have seen 800+ other items. To have any hope of catching their eye, an entry had to do something original. The sense of "item burnout" hit pretty hard after the first few hundred entries.
So yes, we weighed originality pretty high. The questions we got never asked about that during the submissions process, but that doesn't mean it wasn't important.
As gamers, we tend to focus on rules and mechanics. As designers, though, you need to think about the broader implications for the play experience and for the audience. As judges, those questions came up again and again. I don't think it's an unfair criterion, and I don't think all judging criteria need to be spelled out before a contest.
Man, I've rambled. The point is, this was a first-time judging process and an attempt to do something new. Yes, the hours spent judging were long, but I think the threesome filtered entries both promptly and effectively. The contest seemed remarkably well run, and I think the final results show some very strong design potential. We'll see how the next rounds go.
And let me say, it's good to have you back.
I love the clarity, tact, lucidity and comraderie of the Paizo forums. There are eloquent posters here.
Word. After 4,000 plus posts and two plus years on these boards, I still get excited when new folk show up.
Watcher, I completely understand about work & life dishing you out a double-sized dose of Stress, but those things come first, and we'll miss you while you get that handled. In the meantime, pop on the boards once in a while, and the Tuesday chats. I must give out my glompings! :D
Having said all that, Watcher, I like your Lantern and will probably use it in an upcoming campaign.
Me too! And I have been a bit of a lurker, recently, but have enjoyed what you have to say, Watcher, and would be said to see you go.