Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Folks,
It has come to our attention that two items, the Maw of Urgathoa and the Kraken Crown, came in over the 200-word limit dictated by the rules of the RPG Superstar contest. We wanted to be flexible on this rule because different software can count certain words differently, but these two items were beyond what we felt was a fair threshold.
We have replaced both items with the first and second alternates, in this case the Gloves of Adaptive Combat by Daniele Nanni and Tinnil's Stirring Rod, by Michael Kogan.
Our apologies to the authors of the disqualified items for not doing the word counts on what appeared--at first--to be normal-sized items. Sorry to give you a taste of the glory and then snatch it away like this.
To the promoted alternates, good luck on the next round of RPG Superstar!
Ah. 'Tis a shame, but really, I can see that both of those items gained a lot of "cool" from the going over the alloted amount, so this sounds like a fair choice.
:-(
That is a shame. I liked the items.
Well, I should have done a word count of my own before submiting, so it's my own darn fault.
Good luck to everyone else out there!
At least I can still use the Kraken Crown in my own campaign.
I should have done a word count. I could have edited to read thusly:
The Kraken Crown appears to be a headband of metallic blue tentacles braided around the wearer's head. The tips of the tentacles bend upward, forming eight points of the crown.
The Kraken Crown has three powers. First, the Kraken Crown can stretch out one of its tentacles up to 20 feet long, allowing the wearer to make melee touch attacks, including touch spell effects, up to 20 feet away. This ability is activiated as a free action, lasts for 1 round, and can be used up to 5 times per day.
The second power of the Kraken Crown allows the wearer to use Black Tentacles twice per day. Activating this ability is a standard action.
The third power of the Kraken Crown allows the wearer to Dimension Door up to 800 feet away, leaving behind a region of inky darkness centered at his point of origin. The region of inky darkness is 40 feet in radius and provides total concealment to all within it. It persists for 10 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action. It is usable once per day.
Moderate conjuration; CL 10th; Craft Wonderous Item, Reach Spell, deeper darkness, dimension door, black tentacles. 32,000 gps.
193 words by my count.
Oh, well. No use crying over sour grapes.
The contest was fun to enter but there have been a few aspects which have been handled very poorly IMO this is the worst. The contest rules kept changing and evolving to much over the course of the contest IMO.
Judges posted that entries could go over 200 words during the contest but contestents would be taking a risk doing so. It was wrong to pull them after the 3 judges unanimously advanced them, a few words didn't make that much of a difference when others get to completely ignore mechanics in a RPG Superstar contest.
I acknowledge some design is selective but more than a few of the Top 32 completely ignored game mechanics, even have a judge comment regarding copying from the magic item compendium or were unaware of the SRD crafting rules for an original magic item most experienced players will never use in game building a character.
If there is little or no utility for the item and pricing using suggested wealth by level why whould I or other players ever choose to add them to my character sheet in a game? I'll use another cool magic item that has some utility to cost. It's like playing a commoner in game it's doable but why would you normally with all the other options?
I was really looking forward to seeing the Top 32 magic items I'd want to have on my character sheet and I was disappointed I liked quite a few of the Losers a lot better because I could enjoy using them in a game and have them on my character sheet. My favorites have been the Top 32 items with utility to cost that followed the game cost mechanics and I am really looking forward to their countries.
It was a first time contest, there were bound to be issues, some might say mistakes. Not sure anything really rises to the level of a mistake, but room to grow all the way around.
In the end, I think what stands out about the early stages of this contest is how closely the judges worked with the viewing audience and contestants. Now, add in the fact that the vast majority of the audience was also a contestant and possible customer of the company producing the contest, and you begin to see just how complicated this siuation is.
Most companies I've seen do this (WotC, Bioware) would never have been so overtly involved in the community discussion or provided the insight that the Paizo judges offered.
So, the question you have to ask is do you prefer the open communication or the appearance of universal judging. Cause you have to know that no judging is actually perfectly tied to the criteria explained--it's all a bit subjective.
I wanted to tie this to other non-gaming companies that run online contests/bounties (I read Wikinomics earlier this year), but that goes beyond what most would be interested in reading, I think.
The judges narrowed the field and the community will have its say. I'm nt sure the end product will reflect the time the community will have invested, but that's part of the experiment.
I agree that the judges tried hard to work with us but I think they made something of an error in regards to the way they were talking about the word count. Now I know my item was under so I'm sure thats not why I did not make the cut. Still I have to say I kind of feel for those that might have been a bit over.
I think, in this aspect, a better system would have been to straight out tell the submitters that there was an absolute 200 word cap but that the judges would allow a small (but never defined) amount of leeway due to the fact that different programs count words differently. After that the Judges should probably have auto-rejected anything over 210.
It seems to me that the judges were sending mixed messages in this regard. Eric, in particular, seems to be something of a stickler on this point while Clark posted messages along the lines of 'don't worry if you item is a little over we probably won't even notice'.
That said I understand that this was a learning experience for the judges as well as the submitters.
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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While I am well-recorded on what I think of some of the selections, I want to point out that it is the first contest of its kind, when you include transparency, and the level of detail the judges gave us to describe what they're looking for.
The winner of this contest will be a true Superstar, and like Erik says, those who struggled to write their submissions in compelling fashion won't make it past this round if they don't work really hard.
I'm so anxious to see the country submissions and try really hard not to compare it to my entry.
Not only will we submitters learn from this experience, but Paizo will also. Maybe they go on to Superstar 2 next year. Maybe they never do this again because some of us contestants didn't give them (or some of the contestants) the respect they deserve. If there is a Superstar 2, it will be better because of this experience. Despite some of the complaining, this is the most fun and most intriguing contest of its type. So the next one will be even better!
I think this year's Superstar winner should be a judge in next year's contest if there is one. Show us what they've learned about design in one year.
In the end, I think what stands out about the early stages of this contest is how closely the judges worked with the viewing audience and contestants.
Most companies I've seen do this (WotC, Bioware) would never have been so overtly involved in the community discussion or provided the insight that the Paizo judges offered.
So, the question you have to ask is do you prefer the open communication or the appearance of universal judging. Cause you have to know that no judging is actually perfectly tied to the criteria explained--it's all a bit subjective.
The judges narrowed the field and the community will have its say. I'm nt sure the end product will reflect the time the community will have invested, but that's part of the experiment.
The judges were great but I want some consistentcy. They dropped the ball here IMO and I want them to pick it up. If there is open communication from a judge it has to be honored. IMO in this contest later entrants were favored over early entrants because the rules kept evolving as the contest progressed. I have no issue with that, however at least one judge said you could go over the word limit at your own risk. They could have been disqualifed over entry length at any point in time before noon Pacific time today but they weren't.
IMO all the Top 32 contestents should be held to the same contest standards not just a word count standard. IMO more than a few of the other 32 are not meeting ALL the RPG Superstar contest standards because it is a lot easier to be creative and make a Wow entry that ignores standard cost mechanics and design than one that adheres to them and that is where I feel most of the contestents were cheated in this contest because as a player using suggested wealth by level I would not use most of those items except to sell them for 50% for their cost to utility in a game and maybe that makes me a munchkin but I prefer my expensive magic items to come without a high cool cost factor at the expense of game mechanic cost and utility.
IMO it is unfair to disqualify two contestents who were advanced to the second round for being slightly over word count, after All three judges unanimously signed off on the two entrants as being keepers before advancing them and after announcing the fact in public.
To bad, they took a risk (calculated or inadvertant) like a judge said was acceptable, they were slightly over the word limit but their entries were so good they were advanced to round 2 because All 3 judges and the screening program failed to notice it.
It was wrong to disqualify them after qualifying them. IMO they should be allowed to compete since they were qualified for round 2. That shouldn't be impossible to rectify at this point in time. Barring that they should each get a consolation prize of some sort like having their entry published in a Paizo product with an authoring credit for a minor ego stroke.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Yeah, we're definitely learning.
Part of the reason we have to be stickers on the word count more than anything is because this is ultimately a contest based on publishing, and in publishing the number of words on a page is a HARD LIMIT. If you come in short of your word limit, the editor must write additional text to fill work that you have been contracted to write. If you provide more words than asked for, the editor must again do your work for you and cut down words that shouldn't be there in the first place.
We should have said something like 200 words, with a tiny margin of error to account for different word count methodologies of different word processors.
We also should have been more clear about what format we expected the entries to be in.
We also should have run a word count on these two items before moving them to the keeper folder, let alone before announcing them as winners. But once we realized both were substantially over (one by 39 words and one by 69 words), we decided it would not be fair to the other contestants who followed this critical rule.
Certain things are disqualifiers, and certain things are part of the subjective element of what makes one item better than the other. Both of these passed the latter test in spades, but failed the former.
I wish we'd noticed earlier, and I agree that this is the lamest part of the contest so far.
I just feel a little bad about it because my extra words were just clarifying points, like statting out the grapple check, duration, and range of the Black Tentacles. I should have done a word count, but forgot to do it prior to submitting, and didn't think I could re-submit it with edits. Oh, well. Live and learn.
At least now I'll include more material of the Gnollish Gynarky of the Pirate Priestesses of the Crater Sea in my regular campaign. I might even have Gynark Krokuta wear the Kraken Crown. I'm definitely moving one adventure locale because of this contest, so it's not a total loss.
I dont think we ever said that overages of the size of the ones involved in those two entries were ok.
We said we would allow small overages to account for different programs.
I dont know where anyone is getting the idea that we said we werent enforcing the word count. In fact, my posts said just the opposite.
I feel responsible since I was the primary word nazi. I was the one that usually ran the word count. It wasnt my specific "job," but i tended to be the one to do it or comment on it and reject for it. I dont know why those didnt get checked.
But the feeling was that the overages were so large it wasnt fair to advance them.
We had two options: 1. fix it, or 2. pretend we are infallible and say "the great and powerful oz has decided".
In this case, I think we had to do #1.
This isnt about us saving face, it is about a good, fair competition.
The judges were great but I want some consistentcy. They dropped the ball here IMO and I want them to pick it up. If there is open communication from a judge it has to be honored. IMO in this contest later entrants were favored over early entrants because the rules kept evolving as the contest progressed. I have no issue with that, however at least one judge said you could go over the word limit at your own risk. They could have been disqualifed over entry length at any point in time before noon Pacific time today but they weren't.
IMO all the Top 32 contestents should be held to the same contest standards not just a word count standard. IMO more than a few of the other 32 are not meeting ALL the RPG Superstar contest standards because it is a lot easier to be creative and make a Wow entry that ignores standard cost mechanics and design than one that adheres to them and that is where I feel most of the contestents were cheated in this contest because as a player using suggested wealth by level I would not use most of those items except to sell them for 50% for their cost to utility in a game and maybe that makes me a munchkin but I prefer my expensive magic items to come without a high cool cost factor at the expense of game...
This is just flat wrong. If someone said that you could go over the word count, show me please. We said you could go over at your peril--meaning peril of being rejected for going over the word count. I'm not sure how anyone interprets that as permission to go over the word count. In fact, if you actually read the threads it is CLEAR that a few words over and you were auto-rejected. I think you are selectively quoting to make a case that we were not fair, and that is bunk.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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I have no issue with that, however at least one judge said you could go over the word limit at your own risk. They could have been disqualifed over entry length at any point in time before noon Pacific time today but they weren't.
I didnt do a word count for the Kraken Crown, the Maw was the only one that struck me as grossly over limit. In 269 words I could have smoothed out my 'too busy' pillow and added another great ability, or rewrote the resonance stone to make it more unique in concept. They should have been autorejected. It might not seem fair that they were selected and then canned, but I think the perspective should be that they were over limit and survived longer than they should have. Their owners can't complain (and haven't) - they turned in an entry outside the rules and could not be rewarded for it.
I don't like seeing language like 'lamest part of the contest so far'. I appreciate that the judges accept responsibility for not noticing earlier, but at the same time, this is a landmark opportunity and a great contest. Even with its first-time flaws, it is transparent, honest and intriguing. We are all learning together.
There should be room for a critical eye cast toward the process (and Paizo has been great in their patience with that), but anyone with any disappointment so far should stop short of true sour grapes, and realize who they are talking to.
Where would this hobby be without those three guys?
Edied: AS fixed what I posted about here.
It's a very ineteresting contest. I wouldn't call it groundbreaking, but it's quite fun. The internet contest is becoming a way of life for designers and researchers.
I think the critical element occuring on this forum is actually the part of the contest that has the most opportunity to possibly become groundbreaking.
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I think the judges did the right thing once the overage was noticed. It was a hard call but a good one.
Sure 38 and 69 words don't sound like massive overages, but when you look at the cap of 200 word thats like 20% and 35% over (I suck at math so may be wrong). Those aren't insignificant overages, thats pretty hefty.
Yeah, it would have been great if the overages where caught sooner but they weren't. I really liked the Crown entry but I still respect the call to DQ.
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At least now I'll include more material of the Gnollish Gynarky of the Pirate Priestesses of the Crater Sea in my regular campaign. I might even have Gynark Krokuta wear the Kraken Crown.
Find some place and post that. Do it. Do it NOW.
No, really, I am interested in your country and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
:D
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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To continue the American Idol analogy (yes I watched part of the damnable show because I was curled on the GF's couch and she was hooked) I know there were cases where later on in the competition people we disqualified for various reasons (wanted felons being the most amusing).
Should they have gone back and offered the golden ticket to -everyone- who was beat out by that guy? No.
I appriciate (as someone who didn't enter) the alternates. Heck I look at some of the items and my mind never went down the paths some of the rejections took, or the winners for that matter.
Rules are rules. If I'd submitted something from Untapped Potential, filing off the serial numbers and making it arcane rather than psionic, there'd be no complaints if after it was accepted someone went "Hey! I know that item!" In this case, Plagurism and over the word limit are the same thing, breaking rules and DQ events.
I'm sure we all remember the 'Paladins are screwed' arguments in Savage Tide. It was a learning experience then, as is this. The idea that bargining in the Abyss would break a paladin never occured to James. That these two slipped by the word count didn't occur to Eric, Wolfgang and Clark. *shrug* Live and learn.
Maybe I'll post a write-up of it on here. Maybe somewhere else. We'll see. I don't want to lose the copyright.
This is just flat wrong. If someone said that you could go over the word count, show me please. We said you could go over at your peril--meaning peril of being rejected for going over the word count. I'm not sure how anyone interprets that as permission to go over the word count. In fact, if you actually read the threads it is CLEAR that a few words over and you were auto-rejected. I think you are selectively quoting to make a case that we were not fair, and that is bunk.
Clark I know I was overcount and my entry was flawed. I just don't care for how the first two Top 32 contestants were dropped from the contest after naking it to the second round.
Do the the precontest week posts still exist here at Paizo? Because I'll go through them one by one. It was clear to me that you wanted contestants to be under the 200 word count but I'd already submitted by then so it. There was at least one post that said a contestant would be taking a risk if he went over 200 words but it wasn't necessarily an automatic disqualifier and the amount of words wasn't clearly specified.
If I really wanted to win this contest I wouldn't have started this thread at Giant in the Playground to increase the competition:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62565
I wanted a great contest. I believe two Giant's made to the Top 32 and more competed here.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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One understated, very cool part of this endeavor was how much campaign work got done. It's been mentioned a little ("At least I have a cool item for my campaign), but some of us were already forming each of the other stages and getting busy. I have partial or majority drafts for FIVE countries to add to the setting concept I'd like to sell one day.
Even losing, it could be a turning point for some developers in the contest. Thanks for making us work hard!!
(PS I won't be posting any of my future rounds like some said they were: the remaining players deserve our concentration, not me. And now I'm putting all my work into my other attempts. You won't see those without a shiny dollar!
Eh...maybe a dingy dollar. Bloodstained is okay, too, really....)
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I should have done a word count. I could have edited to read thusly:
The Kraken Crown appears to be a headband of metallic blue tentacles braided around the wearer's head. The tips of the tentacles bend upward, forming eight points of the crown.
The Kraken Crown has three powers. First, the Kraken Crown can stretch out one of its tentacles up to 20 feet long, allowing the wearer to make melee touch attacks, including touch spell effects, up to 20 feet away. This ability is activiated as a free action, lasts for 1 round, and can be used up to 5 times per day.
The second power of the Kraken Crown allows the wearer to use Black Tentacles twice per day. Activating this ability is a standard action.
The third power of the Kraken Crown allows the wearer to Dimension Door up to 800 feet away, leaving behind a region of inky darkness centered at his point of origin. The region of inky darkness is 40 feet in radius and provides total concealment to all within it. It persists for 10 rounds. Activating this ability is a swift action. It is usable once per day.
Moderate conjuration; CL 10th; Craft Wonderous Item, Reach Spell, deeper darkness, dimension door, black tentacles. 32,000 gps.
193 words by my count.
Oh, well. No use crying over sour grapes.
Dan, your item just RAWKS. Consider it stolen for my home campaign. ;)
I'm sorry about your word count. Just wanted to share this is a clear winner to me. I particularly like the way you treated the octopus thematic. The dimension door with the ink cloud is what made it, as well as the touch-attack ability which is both useful and flavorful. Thanks for your participation!
Except for all the stuff I DIDN'T post yet! :-P
Congratulations to Ms Nanni and Mr Kogan...Daniele Nanni is also a Mr.
Yikes! Dropped and gelded.
CastleMike,
I appreciate your concerns. We have the same ones. In fact, we learned alot about how to do this in Round 1. I hope you see the changes to things in the instructions we gave for Round 2. In retrospect, we obviously needed to do that for Round 1.
None of us liked having to cut 2 great items that were over. I mean, the people with egg on their faces were us three judges--we didnt catch the overages. Its embarassing for us. But we responded the only way that we thought was fair--and believe me that was a "lesser of two evils" decision. Its not like there was a different decision that would have made everyone happy. There wasnt.
But we certainly accept responsibility.
Its time to get past this issue. Instead, turn your attention to seeing if we are doing better now for Round 2. I personally wrote the instructions for round 2 with the Q and A format to make it more clear and I sought input from all of you to do it. And you can see that all of the stuff you guys raised I answered. If you think there is stuff we should have done for round 2, let me know so we can do it in round 3.
Lets get on to reading those killer items and then, when it is time, judging those countries!!!
We want your help in this process, we have asked for it, you have given it, and we have incorporated it. I dont know alot of competitions where that happens. We are very proud of our transparency and openness.
Thanks for your input and keep it up!
Clark that was an old post and I have moved on. We're all human and we all make mistakes. I'm sorry this is "Paizo" and I unfairly held Paizo to a higher standard during a first time event where the unplanned always intervenes.
The contest has been very enjoyable to me personally and a positve experience for the majority of the community from most of the posts I have seen.
The most impressive thing regarding this contest is how candid and helpful all the judges have been with the community particularly yourself. It is a rare treat for the community to be able to glean some pearls of wisdom directly from industry vetrans of your stature.
I have been particularly impressed by your personal commitment to "Making the Time" to be available to answer and respond to so many community questions when you are outnumbered several hundrefold. Must help being an undead demon lord and not need to sleep.
Several of my posts have been strongly opinionated but quite a bit less tempered than normal for a day or so. I am a guest at Paizo, if Paizo has any concerns or reservations regarding even a "Single" one of my posts and feels it would be more beneficial to the community if they were removed "Please" feel to delete any or all the Castlemike posts.
CM,
Emotions ran high that first day when results were posted, even mine I admit. You have nothing to appologize for. I like your posts, and they reflect the ebb and flow of our discussion here. No need, in my view, to delete anything. But I'm not Paizo so I dont make those rules. But I also dont see anyone here asking you to do anything. Just keep doing what you are doing. Your posts are very helpful.
Maybe allow re-writes or consultations with the 32 winners. If they submit a country and it has 1002 words or they forgot to list a capital or there is some taboo item, contact the author and ask him/her to edit it instead of auto-disqualifying the entry.
There's a learning curve on both sides of the judges' screen, you know?
Maybe allow re-writes or consultations with the 32 winners. If they submit a country and it has 1002 words or they forgot to list a capital or there is some taboo item, contact the author and ask him/her to edit it instead of auto-disqualifying the entry.
There's a learning curve on both sides of the judges' screen, you know?
I would answer this with a big NO!
RPG superstars have to be professionals as well, so stick with the rules and directions you were given.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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We have promoted one more alternate to the Top 32, replacing a contestant who has withdrawn from the competition. We have already notified the alternate; we'll make the actual announcement on Monday.
I hope whomever it is just had time consraints or something.
We have promoted one more alternate to the Top 32, replacing a contestant who has withdrawn from the competition. We have already notified the alternate; we'll make the actual announcement on Monday.I hope whomever it is just had time consraints or something.
Nope, check the boards...
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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First of all, 1002 words is within the margin of error we're allowing, so no one is going to get disqualified for going two over. Two OTHER Round 1 winners went over by 5 and 8 words respectively, and they're both here.
I do not suggest that any of the Top 32 forget to include one of the items we've asked for. That could very well result in a DQ.