I'm sure it'll be fine. If the feat/spell/class/prestige class/etc. is good enough for their level, and you're the same level as them, then not to worry!
The Order of the Bow Initiate is very powerful. Basically you exchange shooting tons of arrows for the ability to make single really strong attacks. I.e. Ranged Precision.
The Arcane Archer is a decent choice, but you'd need 1st level Arcane Spells (Ranger spells don't count for that).
The Deepwood Sniper from the FR book, Silver Marches is nice as well. Its mainly ranged Sneak Attack and cover reduction for enemies.
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I'm playing a fighter in one game, and a cleric in another.
The fighter is straight PHB.
The cleric has one feat out of the PHB II that lets me trade turn undead attempts to do touch spells as ranged spells, and a domain out of the Eberron Manual.
I'm not the expert guy on rangers, but I think you'll be fine.
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I generally stick to the PHB, although I’m quite partial to some of the variant class features that are out there (in the PHB and elsewhere).
For a ranger, particularly a scout / archer, I think sticking to the PHB should serve you pretty well. A lot of people speak well of the Scout class from Complete Adventurer in this role – I’ve never really used a scout, so I can’t say whether a scout or a ranger would really do the job better.
Some people see the ranger’s animal companion as more of a liability than a help – probably depends on your point of view and what you plan to use the companion for, but there is a decent variant class level in the PHB2 that replaces the animal companion.
An elf is probably not a bad choice for an archer with the dex bonus – and the spot bonus and low light vision could be useful too. The other obvious choice to me would be human, with the bonus feat.
One day I swear I'll play that ranger build...
The only problem is finding a DM that will let me play a Greenspawn Sneak rogue/ranger.
I have the mini! I'm great with LE characters!
My suggestion would be a Rogue/Ranger, Fighter/Ranger, or Sorceror/Ranger gesalt. If you go S/R, then I'd suggest prestige to Arcane Archer/Ranger gesalt. I'm not much of a bow person, so I don't know any other ranged classes off hand. However, I am good at making chars...especially high-powered ones. D*** do I love my Dread Fang... I think he's the best I've ever done.
Gesalting give you a +1 ECL, and you take the best of both classes. You can't gesalt multiple prestige classes, but you can do a prestige and a main class together.
I'm sure others here can explain it. Otherwise myself or my co-DM can explain it to you...and maybe help you be a little ahead of the rest of the party!:P
However, you could go with another gesalt we've thought of. A Cleric/Monk or Sorceror/Monk. What's better than punching someone while casting detrimental touch spells on them at the same time?
As I can't think of any usful feats or classes/variants/prestiges other than the stated (I'm more the guy who loves to make over-powered villains using the Book of Vile Darkness, Libris Mortis, and Heroes of Horror (among other sources that are generally for evil N/PCs)). My co-DM might get on some time and throw out some useful things.
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It depends who you're playing with.
If you're playing with normal RPers and a decent DM you should be fine. The only problem will be if you're playing with power-gamers, in which case i would advise you to find another game as an inexperienced player with just the phb will just sit around looking bored (rping a character who stands around looking bored).
In most games a normal PHB ranger will be a useful party member with a bunch of good RP opportunities for the DM.
You'll need to know more about the group you're gaming with before you can make a lot of decisions about your build. If your group is using lots of other books you might want to page through a few of them yourself. The animal companion feature for a straight ranger isn't that useful in all campaigns, but the PHII has a useful variation. Ranger spells aren't something I find all that useful (but to each their own), and there's a variation in the PHII that lets you trade them for a few bonus feats. Then there's the spell-less ranger in the Complete Warrior, which gets faster movement and a few extra spell-like abilities. I'd recommend the PHII if you want the ranger with the feats to be a great archer. The Complete Warrior variant is a bit more rounded, I think.
On the other hand, a straight PH ranger still rocks.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Unearthed Arcana Ranger has fast movement and wildshape. www.d20srd.org
A more complex ranger varient is in Hamunaptra, the wild walker.
d10 HD
They lose the normal fighting style and animal companions, they gain the following:
COMBAT STYLE (EX)
At 2nd level, a wildwalker must select a combat style to
pursue: bow, dagger, flail, sling, spear or dual-weapon. This
choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict
his selection of feats or special abilities in any way. At this
time, the wildwalker gains a bonus feat based on his chosen
combat style: Rapid Shot (bow or sling), Weapon Finesse
(dagger), Power Attack (flail), Combat Expertise (spear) or
Two-Weapon Fighting (dual-weapon).
The wildwalker does not need the normal prerequisites for the
feat. The benefits of the wildwalker’s chosen style apply only
when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his
combat style when wearing medium armor
TALENTS
At 4th level, the wildwalker may choose a talent from the
following list:
Animal Companion (Ex): The wildwalker gains an animal
companion. This ability functions as the druid ability of
the same name, except the wildwalker’s effective druid
level is one-half his wildwalker level.
Bonus Feat: The wildwalker gains a bonus feat chosen from
the following list: Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal Affinity,
Athletic, Diehard, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy or Toughness.
The wildwalker must meet the prerequisites of this feat.
Command Nature (Su): The wildwalker gains the ability to
rebuke or command animals. This is similar to the ability
to rebuke or command undead, except the wildwalker’s
level is treated as half his class level (round down) for
purposes of all turning checks. Command nature has no
effect on creatures other than animals. Otherwise, this
ability works the same as rebuking undead.
Fast Movement: The wildwalker’s land speed increases by 10
feet, but only while wearing no armor or light armor and
not carrying a heavy load.
Great Provider: The wildwalker can find food and water for
one person for each point his Survival check exceeds DC
10, rather than one person per two points, as normal.
Trackless Step (Ex): The wildwalker leaves no trail in natural
surroundings and cannot be tracked. He may choose to
leave a trail if so desired.
Uncanny Dodge: The wildwalker has an acute sense of
danger. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)
even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible
attacker. However, he still loses his Dex bonus to AC
if immobilized. If the wildwalker already has uncanny
dodge from another class, then he gains improved
uncanny dodge.
IMPROVED COMBAT STYLE (EX)
At 6th level, a wildwalker’s aptitude in his chosen combat
style improves. The wildwalker gains the following bonus
feat: Manyshot (bow or sling), Improved Feint (spear), Cleave
(flail), Spring Attack (dagger) or Improved Two-Weapon
Fighting (dual-weapon). The wildwalker does not need to meet
the normal prerequisites for this feat.
As before, the benefits of the wildwalker’s chosen style apply
only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of
his combat style when wearing medium armor.
IMPROVED TALENTS
At 7th, 8th and 9th level, the wildwalker may choose an
improved talent from the following list. If desired, the
wildwalker may choose a talent in place of an improved talent.
Bonus Feat: The wildwalker gains a bonus feat chosen from the
list of talent bonus feats. The wildwalker must meet the
prerequisites of this feat.
Evasion (Ex): The wildwalker can avoid even magical and
unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful
Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals
half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no
damage. Evasion can be used only if the wildwalker is
wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless wildwalker
does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The wildwalker cannot be
flanked and can react to opponents on either side of him
normally. The wildwalker must have the uncanny dodge
talent to select this talent.
Sand Stride (Ex): The wildwalker may move across sandy or
desert terrain at normal speed, without taking damage or
suffering any other impairment. However, the wildwalker
still requires water, food and rest as usual.
Swift Tracker (Ex): The wildwalker can move at his normal
speed while following tracks without taking the normal
–5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the
normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed
while tracking.
COMBAT STYLE MASTERY (EX)
At 11th level, a wildwalker’s aptitude in his chosen combat
style improves again. The wildwalker gains one of the
following feats, depending on the chosen style:
• Improved Precise Shot (bow or sling), Whirlwind Attack
(dagger or spear), Great Cleave (flail) or Greater Two-
Weapon Fighting (dual-weapon).
The wildwalker does not need to meet the normal prerequisites
for the feat.
As before, the benefits of the wildwalker’s chosen style apply
only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of
his combat style when wearing medium armor.
MASTER TALENT
At 13th and 17th level, a wildwalker may choose a master
talent from the following list. If desired, the wildwalker can
choose a talent or an improved talent in place of a master
talent.
Bonus Feat: The wildwalker gains a bonus feat chosen from the
list of talent bonus feats. The wildwalker must meet the
prerequisites of this feat.
Camouflage (Ex): The wildwalker can use the Hide skill in any
sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant
cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain,
the wildwalker can use the Hide skill even while being
observed. The wildwalker must have the camouflage talent
in order to choose this talent.
Wilderness Mastery (Ex): When using Hide, Listen, Move
Silently, Spot or Survival in a wilderness setting, the
wildwalker can take 10 even when distracted or under
stress.
No spells, but a lot more flexible than the PHB ranger.
So, with all your knowledge and experience, and all the books and supplements at your disposal, how would you build and develop the perfect scout/archer? I'm leaning towards an elven ranger for obvious reasons, but you all know better than I. What about other classes, prestige classes, races, skills, feats, unique equipment, tactics and tips, etc? Thanks for the help!!!
An elf ranger as an archer/scout works well as long as you have another PC to act as the bruiser/tank. Concentrate on the Point Blank Shot feat tree for the archer role. Concentrate on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot for skills. Purchase/make a composite longbow built for Str and arrows made from alchemical silver and cold iron ASAP. Pair up with a battlefield control spellcaster and pick off the disabled opponents while they're vulnerable. If up against a spellcaster with minions, be prepared to use readied actions to disrupt spellcasting. As far as PrCs go, arcane archer (DMG)*, darkwood stalker (CW), highland stalker (CAd) with some modification, and order of the bow initiate (CW) are strong choices.
*- If you want to go the arcane archer route, I recommend burning a feat for Armor Proficiency (Heavy) and taking one level of the spellsword (CW) PrC or take levels in either warmage (CAr) or beguiler (PHBII) instead of sorcerer or wizard so you can cast spells while wearing certain types of armor. Another option would be to trade off the magical arrow abilities of the arcane archer with the straight spellcasting of the eldritch knight (DMG); this option requires a greater investment in arcane spellcasting, though.
My suggestion would be a Rogue/Ranger, Fighter/Ranger, or Sorceror/Ranger gesalt. If you go S/R, then I'd suggest prestige to Arcane Archer/Ranger gesalt.
Munchkin alert!!
Elf ranger 11-arcane archer 9/wizard 15-spellsword 1-archmage 4
Elf Ranger 1/Elf Wizard 1; Substitution levels from RotW, Animal Companion instead of Familiar (UA/SRD), Flaw: Non-combatant (UA/SRD), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Ranger 2/Wizard 2; Combat Style (Rapid Shot)
Ranger 3/Wizard 3; Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
Elf Ranger 4/Wizard 4; Substitution level from RotW
Ranger 5/Wizard 5; Craft Wand
Ranger 6/Wizard 6; Improved Combat Style (Manyshot), Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Arcane Archer 3/Wizard 9; Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Ranger 7/Spellsword 1
Arcane Archer 4/Wizard 10; Widen Spell
Arcane Archer 5/Wizard 11; Spell Focus (Evocation)
Arcane Archer 8/Wizard 14; Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Ranger 9/Archmage 2
Elf Ranger 10/Archmage 3; Substitution level from RotW, Empower Spell
Arcane Archer 9/Wizard 15; Quicken Spell
Ranger 11/Archmage 4; Combat Style Mastery (Improved Precise Shot)
Full BAB and arcane spellcasting, some divine spellcasting (including cure spells), all arrows fired are treated as magical, unrestricted arcane spell access, and archmage High Arcana. The most useful High Arcana choices are: Arcane Fire, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, and Mastery of Shaping.
My suggestion would be a Rogue/Ranger, Fighter/Ranger, or Sorceror/Ranger gesalt. If you go S/R, then I'd suggest prestige to Arcane Archer/Ranger gesalt.Elf ranger 11-arcane archer 9/wizard 15-spellsword 1-archmage 4
Elf Ranger 1/Elf Wizard 1; Substitution levels from RotW, Animal Companion instead of Familiar (UA/SRD), Flaw: Non-combatant (UA/SRD), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Ranger 2/Wizard 2; Combat Style (Rapid Shot)
Ranger 3/Wizard 3; Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
Elf Ranger 4/Wizard 4; Substitution level from RotW
Ranger 5/Wizard 5; Craft Wand
Ranger 6/Wizard 6; Improved Combat Style (Manyshot), Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Arcane Archer 3/Wizard 9; Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Ranger 7/Spellsword 1
Arcane Archer 4/Wizard 10; Widen Spell
Arcane Archer 5/Wizard 11; Spell Focus (Evocation)
Arcane Archer 8/Wizard 14; Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Ranger 9/Archmage 2
Elf Ranger 10/Archmage 3; Substitution level from RotW, Empower Spell
Arcane Archer 9/Wizard 15; Quicken Spell
Ranger 11/Archmage 4; Combat Style Mastery (Improved Precise Shot)Full BAB and spellcasting, all arrows fired are treated as magical, unrestricted arcane spell access, and archmage High Arcana. The most useful High Arcana choices are: Arcane Fire, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, and Mastery of Shaping.
Not quite sure what that has to do with what I said, but nice. A gesalt class takes the best parts of two classes and puts them in one, estentially leveling to classes at once. However, you don't get the stacked bonuses like you would if you simply multiclassed. You take the best bonus, best hit die, best base attack, best skill points. You get all the skills as class skills and all the other specs for each class.
Not quite sure what that has to do with what I said, but nice.
IMO, the most powerful archer/arcane spellcaster gestalt, and how to advance it through 20 levels.
A gesalt class takes the best parts of two classes and puts them in one, estentially leveling to classes at once. However, you don't get the stacked bonuses like you would if you simply multiclassed. You take the best bonus, best hit die, best base attack, best skill points. You get all the skills as class skills and all the other specs for each class.
Also, you can only have one prestige class at any given level, so the other class being gestalted at that charater level has to be a base class. Sometimes this requires careful planning.
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Gesalting give you a +1 ECL, and you take the best of both classes. You can't gesalt multiple prestige classes, but you can do a prestige and a main class together.
Where do you get the +1ECL from?
All I can find in UA is that gestalts should not play with non-gestalt characters and monsters should either be one or two CR higher.
Gesalting give you a +1 ECL, and you take the best of both classes. You can't gesalt multiple prestige classes, but you can do a prestige and a main class together.
Where do you get the +1ECL from?
All I can find in UA is that gestalts should not play with non-gestalt characters and monsters should either be one or two CR higher.
You're right on that - Gestalting is an entirely different world of house-ruling - which I'm sure is where that +1 ECL came from. Gestalt characters are far more powerful than simply +1 ECL.
On the OP's question, I agree that rangers are one of the better classes from the PHB to use just PHB resources on - as long as you pick the right favored enemies, you're well off. Classes like Ranger, Druid, and Monk with lots of class features are hard to make Prestige classes for (witness the Horizon Walker) and so don't get as overridden. Plus there aren't tons of feats to be choosing.
Uneartherd Arcana (I believe) has a section all about gesalts (explaining everything), and gives a few suggestions. The +1 ECL is there.
Have you considered playing a rogue? I have an awesome rogue.. Only problem you would have with being able to play him is that he is a drow. Not sure your DM would allow that. There are racial levels for the drow to keep it at the same level as base race PCs. With my settup, one only needs a brilliant energy weapon and they'd just have to roll against an AC of 10 doing 15-20d6 sneak attack damage. Rather nice:P
And I agree about gesalts being more powerful than +1 ECL, but the book says it. I don't know exactly where, but my co-DM does.
An Elven Ranger built straight from the PHB should be able to compete relatively well with the rest of the party (providing they don't optimise up the wazoo)
It gets even better if one of them has the Spell Compendium and yo ucan borrow it to get some great spells for your ranger. Just copy out the ones you want. It'll take you a couple of hours, but it will be time well spent. Something to do while watching the cricket (or other, long term slow moving summer pastime. Baseball?)
If you are going with an archery ranger, then don't neglect your strength. It seems like it isn't needed, but with a composite bow, you can add your strength to your arrows, and when you are firing 4 or 5 or 6 arrows a round, those extra +2 to +4 sure add up quick.
Perhaps the weakest aspect of the Ranger class is the animal companion. It is basically flavour only, and really weak at higher levels, likely to die in every combat. I strongly suggest replacing it with the Spiritual Guide alternate class feature in Complete Champion. Basically, anytime you are in the "wilds" you get a bonus on Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Search, Spot and Survival Checks. And can cast commune with nature once per day (and can add it to your ranger's spell list.
As for skills, obviously for a scout Move Silently, Listen, Spot and Hide are key. Keep some ranks in survival so you can track, and the Knowledge skills always come in handy for identifying monsters and their strengths and weaknesses. Check out the knowledge skill in the PHB for what they can do.
As for feats, obviously focus on the Archery feats. Point Blank Shot and Precises shot are no brainers for shooting into melee, after that pick ones that seem good. It may also be a good idea to pick up power attack, Rangers can still use stinking big swords, and if you get into melee, it will let you finish things off quickly.
Rangers are only proficient with Light armor, and shield. You can strap a buckler to your forearm and still use a bow without penalty, so I would get one of them ASAP.
DON'T take heavy armor proficiency as a feat. If you want heavy armor that badly, take a level or two in fighter. But since you will be pumping your dex anyway, you won't need heavy armor.
DON'T take the Arcane Archer Prestige Class (PrC) either. For the level it gives you bonuses, you will be able to buy much better arrows anyway. And if you can use Spell Compendium, the Rangers spells in there are pretty sweet.
A simple Elven Ranger (Archer) would look something like this (assuming 28 point buy).
Strength 14 +2
Dexterity 18 +4 (16 +2 racial)
Constitution 12 +1 (14 -2 racial)
Intelligence 10 +0
Wisdom 12 +1
Charisma 8 -1
Gear, Studded Leather Armor, Buckler, Longbow, Greatsword, 20 Arrows, Standard Adventuring Gear (Backpack, bedroll etc)
AC 18, Touch 14, Flat Footed 14
Attack
Range +5 Longbow (1d8 x3)
Melee +2 Greatsword (2d6+3) (You take a -1 from the buckler)
Saves Fortitude +3, Reflex +5, Will +1
Feat: Point Blank Shot
Hitpoints: 9
Skillpoint, 4 ranks in Hide, Move silently, Spot, Listen, Survival and Knowledge (Nature).
As you advance, take precise shot, and whatever other archery feats take your fancy. You don't need to keep all those skill maxed out. But I would keep Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen maxed if you want to be a scout.
Above all remember, your Are Not a Frontline Melee Combatant!! Leave that job to the Fighters / Barbarian (Cleric / Druids). They have the hitpoints and the AC to do it. Your job will be to stay at range and riddle the enemies with arrows. If you get into melee, something has gone wrong.
If you have any more questions, just ask, and we'll do our best to answer them.
Gesalting give you a +1 ECL, and you take the best of both classes. You can't gesalt multiple prestige classes, but you can do a prestige and a main class together.
Gesalting gives you +1 ECL but is otherwise open?
Thats not the way I think more then 90% of DMs would view this. Either everyones Gesault or no one is. You can't just decide to Gesault your character in a game where the players are making non-Gesault characters.