In my mind, yes. There is a Dreamlands counterpart to Golarion. Not sure if that'll ever get dovetailed into official canon, though.So... does Golarion have a Dreamlands counterpart?
Obviously not Earth's Dreamlands, but it's implied that every inhabited planet in the waking world generates a Dreamland version -- the Moon, Saturn, Yuggoth...
Given your mention of Leng and Kadath in the blog, it loks like it has... but aren't those specifically part, again, of Earth's Dreamlands? Or does Leng just sort of transcend all geography, dream and physical, in its enormity? :)
ETA: Wait, you pointed out that they are other realms. Still might be too close a connection to Earth for some. (Not me, I'm fine either way.)
In my mind, yes. There is a Dreamlands counterpart to Golarion. Not sure if that'll ever get dovetailed into official canon, though.So... does Golarion have a Dreamlands counterpart?
Obviously not Earth's Dreamlands, but it's implied that every inhabited planet in the waking world generates a Dreamland version -- the Moon, Saturn, Yuggoth...
What if Golarion's Drow lived in the Dreamlands instead of the Underdark? Or some of them, anyway. I'm sure the 3rd adventure path will have some drow in it.
What if Golarion's Drow lived in the Dreamlands instead of the Underdark? Or some of them, anyway. I'm sure the 3rd adventure path will have some drow in it.In my mind, yes. There is a Dreamlands counterpart to Golarion. Not sure if that'll ever get dovetailed into official canon, though.So... does Golarion have a Dreamlands counterpart?
Obviously not Earth's Dreamlands, but it's implied that every inhabited planet in the waking world generates a Dreamland version -- the Moon, Saturn, Yuggoth...
That's a genuinely great idea- coming to steal you away from your beds...
It's back!
I have an issue with the frequent use of cthulhu creatures.
First let me say that I have absolutely no objection to a nod to the genre- mindflayers, creatures from beyond, things that dwell at the edge of your vision, wierd geometry. I have no objection to a creature that sleeps beneath the waves and commands fish-like humanoids and whom it is said when this creature wakes it shall be the end of time, or a realm which bleeds into the world a madness and in which dwells a king in yellow who may be summoned by strange ritual practices.
I dont mind having deep ones (generic enough phraseology) maybe even Night gaunts (same)-- I didn't mind the Hound of Tindalos because I thought it is a bit jarring but once in a while, why not.
My issue is with meeting creatures from Leng, or Shoggoths or a temple to Azathoth. These are from a very specific sub-genre of fiction.
James says that Cthulhu has always been in D&D- yep too true, though most often it is as a nod to the mythos not the mythos itself (save the early dieties and demigods) and I think this is different.
Also what is the difference between using a shoggoth and say a rakshassa? Well my answer is that the former is from a specific genre of fiction and doesn't make me think immediately of 1920's pulp horror whereas the latter is a mythical evil spirit.-- That explanation didn't come out well. I guess my response is to say why not use Sauron, or Thor, or Aslan, Ming the Merciless, the priory of sion, tarzan, the freemasons, the hermetic order of the golden dawn, the oompah lumpahs (apart from copyright issues). It is entirely different to have a Hammer of Thunderbolts (nod to Thor) or even a barbaric bearded deity of the frozen north who kills giants-- Than it is to have Thor.
I guess what I am saying is..
A nod to the mythos = good
Using the actual names of the mythos = bad
Given these are the two options when one wishes to evoke a mythos like feel to a part of the world or a creature I dont really understand why you choose to use the names that have other strong and established connotations and connections
From my point of view if the mythos stuff could be less blatant that would be great.
Dont get me wrong love the quality, love the original ideas.
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Hmmmmm. I can kind of agree with that. I mean, things like the Hounds are okay, since by their very nature they can be anywhere, anywhen. Nods, blatant or subtle, are great, but porting so much mythos stuff might be a slightly less-than-great idea. Leng might be pushing it, but It was well-implemented.
Dont get me wrong; I LOVE the mythos in Pathfinder, but Azathoth and Shoggoths just seem a wee bit much to handle.
I'd like to see more "lovecraftian themses" rather than direct porting of Mythos creatures. take aboleths, for example.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Add another vote to the "Too much of a good thing" list, for me. Leng in Xin'Shalast was putting a foot across the line, to be honest, and it seems its for taking a walk, rather than a halting, soon to be retracted step.
Please, don't overdo things the way you're currently heading. I like dark scenarios, but for me, the mythos is very strongly tied to modern themes, and really does not mingle all that well with fantasy.
Protoplasmic: made of protoplasm. Protoplasm: the goo inside a cell.
So anything like an ooze, that behaves like a giant amoeba, can be described, loosely, as "protoplasmic."
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Toss me in with the pro-mythos crowd. I totally nerded out when I downloaded J3 and found an official Golarion Shoggoth awaiting me. It felt like Christmas, Thanksgiving and my birthday all rolled up into one... if they were all gobbled up by a nightmare inducing madness monster.
I can understand why some may not be comfortable with mythos creatures in their game, but I feel that its ultimately a matter of taste. Which parts of our mythological culture do you most want to see in your game? While I don't want the entirety of the Lovecraftian feel in my campaign, of course, when its handled properly it can serve to make things feel just different and alien enough at just the right times to really keep to keep my players totally hooked.
It's certainly a good feeling when one's personal tastes are so well sated, when a campaign setting comes so close to what one could want in a DND product without writing that product oneself. And it's why Paizo's going to keep getting my money.
I personally love the use of the Mythos in Pathfinder. Creative things happen at the intersections of different mythologies. I liked the references in RotRL to the plateau of Leng, and loved the apperance of the Hounds of Tindalos and Shining Ones. I hope that the Golarion Setting can continue to mine the pulp classics for inspiration, and that this homebrew feel is what will make the Paizo setting stand out from others. The Planet Stories line is competing with Pathfinder for the attention of the Golemworks at Paizo, and there are many interesting harmonies and convergences possible there. Free use of pulp inspiration is what made Greyhawk so vibrant in the beginning. I read the reading list in the old DMG and I see how many different fantasies are possible. I am glad that innovations in the genre such as the work of China Mieville and Clark Ashton Smith can get an airing in Golarion. If I wanted more vanilla fantasy, I would be playing Forgotten Realms.
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Toss me in with the pro-mythos crowd. I totally nerded out when I downloaded J3 and found an official Golarion Shoggoth awaiting me. It felt like Christmas, Thanksgiving and my birthday all rolled up into one... if they were all gobbled up by a nightmare inducing madness monster.
something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ftld7Ohojg
The carol of the Old Ones has been stuck in my head while I was teaching.
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As of the most recent chat, something strange has happened with Golarion. Apparently the Great Old Ones are schedualed to visit. Not sure how I feel about this. I guess it's mainly how it's handled.
Up till now D&D has never really crossed the line to be a mythos product. They've claimed inspiration and introduced realms like the Far Realm and...that one place in Eberron. But these things have never BEEN mythos before. Some of what I've read seems to imply that these beings are the very same beings from Lovecraft Earth. I don't know if this isn't a little too crossovery for my tastes. It's mentioned that Cthulhu won't show up because he's obviously on earth, but other planet hopping ones can and will show up.
But D&D DID do a crossover with Mythos. The first Deities & Demigods featured the Lovecraftian mythos along with the others. The only reason it was removed was because of copyright issues. So really as far back as the early late 70s early 80s D&D was planned to be involved with the Mythos.
I have an issue with the frequent use of cthulhu creatures.
I cannot disagree with this more. Keep the mythos crossovers coming. So far, they have all been interesting, appropriate and fit well within what we know about Golarion. Keep up the good work.
I just don't get the problem. It'd be one thing if they directly adapted one of Lovecraft's stories into an adventure, but just using elements of the mythos such as critters and gods? I mean, do you have a problem with them using Pazuzu and Lamashtu?
I understand if its just a "don't care for the mythos" thing, but otherwise, d&d is a hodge-podge of many culture's myths and legends. Using Azathoth is no different than 99% of the other things you see in d&d (in fact, its an easier pill to swallow since Lovecraft encouraged use and re-interpretation of his mythos.)
I just find it jars. Cthulhu stuff to me feels 1920's horror- maybe it is because I have almost all the Call of Cthulhu game stuff from Chaosium. I explained the difference in my earlier post between shoggoth and Rakshassa (maybe not eloquently).
I guess you are right about the D&D hodge podge argument - though it is more the real world stuff that is taken directly, stuff from authors tends to be more used as inspiration- though there are exceptions (orcs for example)
Would you have a problem coming up against Sauron or Tarzan or Ming the Merciless? I am not saying some powerful dark lord who is seeking to recover part of his mystical essence trapped in a piece of jewellery that can only be destroyed by a specific process (ie a nod to Sauron) but actually Sauron. To me it would jar - though at least it would be derived from a source that is consistent with the fantasy genre.
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Well, with many of the mythos monsters, there's a real, in-game reason for them to be in a D&D world. These creatures werent exactly native to earth, either, Yog-sothoth, Bayakhee, and Hounds of tindalos, and to a lesser extent, Elder things and Mi-Go, are all extraterrestrial, and extraplanar isnt a huge leap for them.
I can agree that direct stuff like shoggoths might be pushing it, but I'd look to WotC's Lords of Madness. It's very lovecraftian. Paizo upped the ante, and I laud them for it.
but Yes, I can see how the shoggoths might be pushing it.
Hey, no less an authority than Abd al-Azrad claimed that there were no shoggoths on Earth.
He was wrong about that, but the statement still implies there might be some elsewhere... :)
Everyone is entitled to their opinions in regards to how and in what fashion the Cthulhu mythos are integrated into Paizo products, and no one opinion/belief is better than the others.... ..... ....
Having said that, and as someone who had servants of Nyarlothotep and Shub-Niggurath in his Greyhawk campaign (explicitly so, with no filing off of serial numbers), I say bring it on, and in enormous quantities!! :) :)
Cthulhu + D&D = Wonderful stuff (even if the heroic flavour of D&D doesn't always blend perfectly with stacked-odds cosmic horror.....it's a peanut butter and chocolate thing to me :) so put me down as a customer in favour of Lovecraftian goodness (and of course bits and pieces of the other authors who contributed to/built the "mythos" over the decades).
Cheers,
Colin
Everyone is entitled to their opinions in regards to how and in what fashion the Cthulhu mythos are integrated into Paizo products, and no one opinion/belief is better than the others.... ..... ....
Having said that, and as someone who had servants of Nyarlothotep and Shub-Niggurath in his Greyhawk campaign (explicitly so, with no filing off of serial numbers), I say bring it on, and in enormous quantities!! :) :)
Cthulhu + D&D = Wonderful stuff (even if the heroic flavour of D&D doesn't always blend perfectly with stacked-odds cosmic horror.....it's a peanut butter and chocolate thing to me :) so put me down as a customer in favour of Lovecraftian goodness (and of course bits and pieces of the other authors who contributed to/built the "mythos" over the decades).
Cheers,
Colin
I agree with your comment about each entitled to own view and am glad to have the views of others in this forum to help bounce ideas off. Agree with me or disagree about this element it is a gripe for me -not enough, not nearly enough to stop me loving the product in general.
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-not enough, not nearly enough to stop me loving the product in general.
Truth. For each thing that has twinged about Pathfinder so far, with me, there are a dozen things I love; Paizo's production of something of quality is a wonderful thing, and it isn't hard for me to adjust the things that I feel I need to adjust to suit me.
Lando mentions how he came across it on this out-of-the-way planet that referred to the beverage as 'hot chocolate.'Ewww...but at the same time, I love the way the Hitch Hikers Guide has *every* race/planet/culture etc in the universe seperatly inventing a drink called "Gin and Tonic"...
And how in the Babylon 5 universe, J. Michael Stracynszki has stated that every sentient race has a meal that's identical to our Swedish meatballs. (Not the same name, the same foodstuff.)
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
And for people wanting to use Cthulhu in Pathfinder . . .
Why not just go for the demon lord Dagon instead? To me, he seems to be Cthulhu in most every aspect except name.
Also, I know that the skum were created by the aboleths and they generally worship them, but couldn't some of them worship Dagon as well?? ;-)
And what did the pro-Lovecraftians think of "Carrion Hill," anyway?
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
And for people wanting to use Cthulhu in Pathfinder . . .
Why not just go for the demon lord Dagon instead? To me, he seems to be Cthulhu in most every aspect except name.
Also, I know that the skum were created by the aboleths and they generally worship them, but couldn't some of them worship Dagon as well?? ;-)
And what did the pro-Lovecraftians think of "Carrion Hill," anyway?
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
Carrion Hill rocked.
If we go by what Lovecraft wrote...
Cthulhu is the high priest to the Great Old Ones on Earth. Therefore Golarion either has a high priest of their own (unlikely) or their Cults worship the Great Old Ones directly (as evidenced by, well, what Paizo's written on the subject thus far).
My two cents is that the entirely Earth-based elements, Cthulhu, the conical Great Race, the Elder Things, etc, should stay on Earth. However, demon lords, the swarm-based Great Race, Cthulhu's Star Spawn, etc, are fair game and works to place not just Golarion into our consciousness but to place Earth and out universe into Golarion's cosmology.
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Wow, someone called forth this dead but dreaming thread with it's essential salts.
Just a few thing's I'd like to throw out....
In "The Call of Cthulhu" when Lovecraft refers to the Great Old Ones, it seems more to be in reference to Cthulhu's race than to what the term has become in the CoC game...a blanket terms describing vastly powerful beings that still fall far below power-wise the Elder Gods or Outer Gods (again, classifications that the CoC game invented). And although Cthulhu is described as their priest, it's never really implied that he is exceptionally larger or more powerful than any other member of his race. Hell, I like to believe that the monstrous entity that chases the ship at the end of the story is Joe Star Spawn, not Cthulhu himself.
While the conical and beetle-like bodies of the Great Race are firmly associated with Earth, that doesn't mean that other body forms of the Great Race couldn't find their way to Golarion. After all, the conical beings were not the original bodies, merely one of those that the Great Race migrated to en mass.
Creative Director
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If we go by what Lovecraft wrote...
Cthulhu is the high priest to the Great Old Ones on Earth. Therefore Golarion either has a high priest of their own (unlikely) or their Cults worship the Great Old Ones directly (as evidenced by, well, what Paizo's written on the subject thus far).
My two cents is that the entirely Earth-based elements, Cthulhu, the conical Great Race, the Elder Things, etc, should stay on Earth. However, demon lords, the swarm-based Great Race, Cthulhu's Star Spawn, etc, are fair game and works to place not just Golarion into our consciousness but to place Earth and out universe into Golarion's cosmology.
Going by this rationale, we could have some other member of Cthulhu's race on Golarion, but he/she/it would have a different name, and that's kinda silly, I think.
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In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil.
I know I'm late to the thread, but I only just now saw it.
When I first saw a picture of the Sandpoint Devil, I knew what it really was. I was also glad to see an NPC with a surname connected to the Jersey Devil.
I can only saw that I hope Paizo continues to do cryptozoologists proud!!!
Going by this rationale, we could have some other member of Cthulhu's race on Golarion, but he/she/it would have a different name, and that's kinda silly, I think.If we go by what Lovecraft wrote...
Cthulhu is the high priest to the Great Old Ones on Earth. Therefore Golarion either has a high priest of their own (unlikely) or their Cults worship the Great Old Ones directly (as evidenced by, well, what Paizo's written on the subject thus far).
My two cents is that the entirely Earth-based elements, Cthulhu, the conical Great Race, the Elder Things, etc, should stay on Earth. However, demon lords, the swarm-based Great Race, Cthulhu's Star Spawn, etc, are fair game and works to place not just Golarion into our consciousness but to place Earth and out universe into Golarion's cosmology.
Considering the Great Old Ones are pan or multi dimensional wouldn't it possible for them to exist in several places at once. Cthulhu could be high priest on many worlds at the same time.
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Creative Director
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In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil.I know I'm late to the thread, but I only just now saw it.
When I first saw a picture of the Sandpoint Devil, I knew what it really was. I was also glad to see an NPC with a surname connected to the Jersey Devil.
I can only saw that I hope Paizo continues to do cryptozoologists proud!!!
I hope we will!
Over the last month, we've worked up stats for death worms (not Mongolian death worms, for obvious reasons) and mokele-mbembe for upcoming products. And the chupacabras are never far from my heart (which is bad, because they drink blood). And my blog's called "Bigfoot Country." And I still plan on making my first trip out of the USA one to Canada to look for Ogopogo.
Cryptids will remain a part of Pathfinder as long as I do, in other words! :-)
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Creative Director
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Considering the Great Old Ones are pan or multi dimensional wouldn't it possible for them to exist in several places at once. Cthulhu could be high priest on many worlds at the same time.
Honestly... I wouldn't be surprised to see Cthulhu show up in some way in Golarion some day. It almost feels like leaving money on the table, not producing a Golarion or Pathfinder product with the word "Cthulhu" in the title...
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In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil.I know I'm late to the thread, but I only just now saw it.
When I first saw a picture of the Sandpoint Devil, I knew what it really was. I was also glad to see an NPC with a surname connected to the Jersey Devil.
I can only saw that I hope Paizo continues to do cryptozoologists proud!!!
I hope we will!
Over the last month, we've worked up stats for death worms (not Mongolian death worms, for obvious reasons) and mokele-mbembe for upcoming products. And the chupacabras are never far from my heart (which is bad, because they drink blood). And my blog's called "Bigfoot Country." And I still plan on making my first trip out of the USA one to Canada to look for Ogopogo.
Cryptids will remain a part of Pathfinder as long as I do, in other words! :-)
WOOT!
Get started on that phylactery so you will be immortal!
my blog's called "Bigfoot Country." And I still plan on making my first trip out of the USA one to Canada to look for Ogopogo.
Cryptids will remain a part of Pathfinder as long as I do, in other words! :-)
Hello James
I recommend a podcast called Monster Talk . - Its a group of skeptics and scientists talking about cryptids. It gives a good background on the monster and they talk about how and what a cryptid would need to survive.
In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil.I know I'm late to the thread, but I only just now saw it.
When I first saw a picture of the Sandpoint Devil, I knew what it really was. I was also glad to see an NPC with a surname connected to the Jersey Devil.
I can only saw that I hope Paizo continues to do cryptozoologists proud!!!
I hope we will!
Over the last month, we've worked up stats for death worms (not Mongolian death worms, for obvious reasons) and mokele-mbembe for upcoming products. And the chupacabras are never far from my heart (which is bad, because they drink blood). And my blog's called "Bigfoot Country." And I still plan on making my first trip out of the USA one to Canada to look for Ogopogo.
Cryptids will remain a part of Pathfinder as long as I do, in other words! :-)
WOOT!
Get started on that phylactery so you will be immortal!
Cryptids have a venerable history in medieval legend. Cynocephali, Woodwoses, Arimaspi, Griffons, etc., were all their version of Cryptids... The Cynocephali turn out to be baboons, as far as the specialists think. Note that Saint Christopher was a Cynocephalos. I'd like to see at least the first two Pathfinderized.
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Considering the Great Old Ones are pan or multi dimensional wouldn't it possible for them to exist in several places at once. Cthulhu could be high priest on many worlds at the same time.Honestly... I wouldn't be surprised to see Cthulhu show up in some way in Golarion some day. It almost feels like leaving money on the table, not producing a Golarion or Pathfinder product with the word "Cthulhu" in the title...
I approve of this future product and consider it already purchased and on my bookshelf.
Though, I'm sure that comes as no surprise...
On the subject of "C'thulhu blongs or not"....how come there was people in Star Wars, but they ain't had dogs? Princess Leia needed a snarky boston terrier to snort and bark at Vader, and yank on his cape.
Maybe bite his bionic arm off.
I think wookies of Golarion would be corny though, whether or not Lucas would allow it.
Uh...when has Lovecraft NOT been in Golarion?
But including the Cthulhu mythos lets you make the players fight so many wonderful things. Like ratthings, mi-gos, flying polyps...
And my personal favorite, the much-overlooked colour out of space.
And by fight I mean run away from in the last case.
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Going by this rationale, we could have some other member of Cthulhu's race on Golarion, but he/she/it would have a different name, and that's kinda silly, I think.
I don't really see why that would be silly. I've always thought that too many people put way too much emphasis on Cthulhu. He's the leader of the Xothians here on Earth, but that doesn't mean he's the only one...or even the most important member of his race in the universe at large. I'm an American, not a Obama Spawn. :P
It doesn't help that Derleth labeled the whole collected myth cycle as the "Cthulhu Mythos" despite Cthulhu being only a mid-level power in the Mythos.
Uh...when has Lovecraft NOT been in Golarion?
Take a look at the dates. This post goes back to EARLY Pathfinder.
I think the Lumley version of the Mythos is more fitting for Pathfinder. Lovecraft's heroes were just too timid whereas Lumley's heroes took the fight to them.
But Lumley has... a Good version of Cthulhu... uugh.
I thought the point of alien monstrosities was that they are too alien to think of humans as being much more than bugs.Plus part of the fun in CoC is all the lesser of two evils stuff-- learning spells, losing sanity, initiating into Yog-Sothoth, etc., to defeat a more immediate threat.
Uh...when has Lovecraft NOT been in Golarion?Take a look at the dates. This post goes back to EARLY Pathfinder.
THANKS. Thread necromancy, why aren't you always my friend?
I said he was more fitting. I didn't say he was very good. I have just about everything Lumley has written and his take on the Mythos kinda goes like this: Early stuff shows promise and his later stuff the promise never showed up.I think the Lumley version of the Mythos is more fitting for Pathfinder. Lovecraft's heroes were just too timid whereas Lumley's heroes took the fight to them.But Lumley has... a Good version of Cthulhu... uugh.
I thought the point of alien monstrosities was that they are too alien to think of humans as being much more than bugs.
Plus part of the fun in CoC is all the lesser of two evils stuff-- learning spells, losing sanity, initiating into Yog-Sothoth, etc., to defeat a more immediate threat.
I agree. I actually enjoyed his early stuff. But it wasn't Lovecraftian for me - more standard pulp.