Not to step on anyone's toes here. I really do love the Pathfinder series so far. But in the spirit of speaking my mind as a consumer and also constructive criticism, some of the artwork is really pretty stank. Sorry.
The covers are things of beauty, every single one. The Eando Kline journal art is likewise great. The guy who does most of the portraits is top notch (mostly, except for that weird picture of Haldmeer Grobaras in the PPG...).
Then on the other hand, there's the stuff that's just disappointing--like the Goblin Warchanter, Warchief Ripnugget, Nualia (this one was a crying shame since if anyone NEEDED to be done justice by her art...*sigh*) and Malfeshnekor (who I was waiting the whole product to finally see he sounded like such a hardcore--and ended up looking like a bunny-yeti *groan*). I was frustrated by the bad art of Crowfood, since his description was so awesome and it seems like the peice that introduces the Grauls more or less (though Mammy Graul was perfect!) Likewise that stone giant peice at the end was just laughable. I felt bad, because it's such a great scene, but it's a ridiculous peice of art.
A lot of the other bad art isn't terrible. There's a fair amount that's just meh. The problem is the bad stuff really takes down the rest of it. If the worst stuff was gone, the rest would be okay to awesome and that's fine.
Anyhow, sorry. Just trying to steer you guys right. Still a dang fine product.
I agree with Grimcleaver here. The 'cartoon' art is really hit and miss. There is some stuff there I think is pretty good but there is a lot of this material in this style that I don't really like.
The Goblin Warchanter on p. 12, Aldern Foxglove p.16, Korvus p. 29, Brathazmus p.45 etc. Not everything along these lines makes me wince but I'd like it if less did.
I agree. Burnt Offerings' cartoon-style was bad, and Skinsaw Murders didn't improve much. The illustrations of Aldern, the lamia and the head honcho for the cultists are just awful. They look like worse than skinny top models. I really don't know the names of various artists and such, but for the love of [insert name of goddess of art here] please contact the artist(s) from Red Hand of Doom and pay them whatever they want to work for you.
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Ah art, so subjective, I for one found the nualia art great, but then again I like Arnold Tsang's style. The cartoon ones like the warchanter, those are imo also not worth the money, though some can be saved while others are to be flushed down the toilet.
Now #2, there the adventure was allmost completely miss for me, I did not care much for that horrible elf constable justice (or how he is called), same with aldern in nr 2 and the cultists, ugh.
The one doing the chapter art in nr 3 can be dropped as well according to me, his action shots look so wooden.
Then again, art is subjective and I'm sure there are fans of the artwork of nr 2 and those that don't like Nualia.
Though the goblin cartoon art seems to be a miss over all.
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Add to this my general agreement. Some of the art is great, some is so-so or so.
I think the picture of Xanesha is a little meh, and I know I'll show the 'default picture' of the Lamia Matriarch at the back of the book. Something about the arms looking too thin, and the fingers too long just doesn't do it for me, nor the scribble of hair.
In the Hook Mountain Massacre, I don't care much for the art that depicts human/elf/gnome/half-orcs etc. of Varisia. There are a lot of extra lines through the faces.
In Skinsaw Murders (page 18) the art here is kind of interesting, but it is very dark. Not something I can show the players without passing it around. As much as it is nice to have good art for the DMs sake, try to keep in mind that many DMs will like to turn the page around and say 'This is what you see'.
Personally, I love art that looks 'realistic'. People look like people, and while some might be unusual, you could imagine seeing someone like that walking down the street.
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My 2 cp:
I like good art. Good art evokes the feel of a setting/adventure. However, I believe you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Given Paizo's new venture, I think if it were more of a "we're trying this various artists out" in similar vein to "rpg superstars" then I am willing to let the bad art slide. I'll let the next pathfinder redeem itself via art. I can let them ride these artists out.
I like good art. Good art evokes the feel of a setting/adventure. However, I believe you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Given Paizo's new venture, I think if it were more of a "we're trying this various artists out" in similar vein to "rpg superstars" then I am willing to let the bad art slide. I'll let the next pathfinder redeem itself via art. I can let them ride these artists out.
I agree with you except about the judging a book by its cover. Good art is very important to me when buying adventures. I am definitely willing to pay a little extra for it. To me, Pathfinder's beautiful maps and Wayne Reynolds covers add a lot of value to the book. The bad art pieces (like the depiction of Iron-whats's his name in Pathfinder 2) are just something I have to wait out. I'm hoping that Paizo, flush with funds from 1-6, will have great art throughout 7-9.
Then on the other hand, there's the stuff that's just disappointing--like the Goblin Warchanter, Warchief Ripnugget, Nualia (this one was a crying shame since if anyone NEEDED to be done justice by her art...*sigh*) and Malfeshnekor (who I was waiting the whole product to finally see he sounded like such a hardcore--and ended up looking like a bunny-yeti *groan*). I was frustrated by the bad art of Crowfood
110% disagree, but then again, art is subjective.
Likewise that stone giant peice at the end was just laughable. I felt bad, because it's such a great scene, but it's a ridiculous peice of art.
I did think this one was pretty "meh". I understand the need to dynamic art, but would have been happier with something a bit more static (that didn't include the Iconics.) Occasionally, I crop the art and make flip books for my players (a la Dark Sun).
I did think this one was pretty "meh". I understand the need to dynamic art, but would have been happier with something a bit more static (that didn't include the Iconics.) Occasionally, I crop the art and make flip books for my players (a la Dark Sun).
I remember those. Those were fun as hell.
As for the art, this has already been discussed thread after thread with the same answers with a wide spectrum.
I personally don't care if the Pathfinders had any images in them.
Whenever I come across any roleplaying book/ supplement, I never like 100% of the artwork regardless of the company. If I did enjoy 100% of the art, it would only be because I was the editor-in-chief using my own artwork and not giving a damn what customers thought about it. As a result, I always go by the text alone, and the Pathfinders have been solid thus far. I don't have the same abdominal pains I sometimes get when reading some of the competition out there.
Creative Director
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I agree. Burnt Offerings' cartoon-style was bad, and Skinsaw Murders didn't improve much. The illustrations of Aldern, the lamia and the head honcho for the cultists are just awful. They look like worse than skinny top models. I really don't know the names of various artists and such, but for the love of [insert name of goddess of art here] please contact the artist(s) from Red Hand of Doom and pay them whatever they want to work for you.
For those playing the home game... keep in mind that the production time of the first few volumes of Pathfinder overlapped with the last few issues of the magazines. That said... we're using a fair number of artists from the magazines in Pathfinder now, including Ben Wootten and Warren Mahy (the artists who handled the entire Savage Tide campaign), Eva Widermann (the artist who did about half the art for Age of Worms and lots of art for other Dungeon adventures), Andrew Hou (a staple artist from both magazines), etc. We're also trying out some new artists now and then.
That said, art is certainly subjective. I myself wasn't a big fan of the art in the Sandpoint backdrop, for example, but I do quite like the art for the NPCs in Skinsaw Murders. But that said, we're certainly varying the artists we've been using, so chances are that sooner than later you'll see art you like.
...we're certainly varying the artists we've been using, so chances are that sooner than later you'll see art you like.
This is the best news I have heard regarding the art. People have strong opinions about the art in Pathfinder but I will be happy as long as things stay fresh and new. Fantasy art is extremely subjective and the range of styles that are possible pretty much guarantees a vocal minority of haters every time. Variety is key.
I'd say less that you should get new people--since invariably that's going to lead to conflict between the art that I like versus the stuff that this other guy likes. Eh. People have different styles.
Mostly the overwhelming opinion I'm getting here is to let the artist know you aren't looking for cartoony art. If it looks like Downer, you won't print it.
Use whatever artists you like, but keep the art level looking professional. Like those incredible scenic shots of Magnimar and the incredible cover art--wow, just wow. Different styles are fine, people like different things, but just make sure that what gets in was a seriously produced finished work, not a sketch that got inked and colored.
That said, there's a few artists I've seen in the Pathfinders--I don't know who's who, but I think we've all spotted their work--where they're going to really need to pick up the ball and produce some eye-popping wow content...or really it's not gonna' work out.
Ben Wooten. That's the best name ever. Woot.
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Creative Director
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Use whatever artists you like, but keep the art level looking professional. Like those incredible scenic shots of Magnimar and the incredible cover art--wow, just wow. Different styles are fine, people like different things, but just make sure that what gets in was a seriously produced finished work, not a sketch that got inked and colored.
Trust me, we're on it. But keep in mind also that some readers don't like Wayne's art because it's "too cartoony" or "comic booky" too. Best we can do is put art in Pathfinder that WE like, and hope that our readers like it too.
I haven't gone through and reexamined all the art, but I just so happened to be looking at PF#3 and have a comment on the racial "underwear lineup" art on pages 64 and 65. That comment would be: YUCK! I strongly dislike the "everybody has the skin texture of Ben Grimm" look. The Final Fantasy gnome girl is the worst of all of these, but for a different reason. I am really not a fan of video game/animation/cartoony styled art, and the gnome pushes all the "hate it" buttons I have. Of all the good, bad, and mediocre art in the books, this is only the second piece I have commented on, and if I had seen this one first I think I would have taken back my comments on the other piece.
Even with the art I didn't like, I would not go so far as to call any of the artwork *unprofessional.* I did not get the impression that any of the art was slap dash.
EDIT: As much as I found some of the artist' work in earlier Pathfinders not to my taste, I did find the "underwear lineup" to die for. When I looked at those, I drooled and said yum-yum-gimme-some. When I saw those, I made up my mind that I just have to try some Elf meat one of these days.
I want to chime in to respond to some of the opinions about the racial chart in PF3: I LOVED IT. Granted, I cut my teeth on a lot of manga back when I read comics regularly (Blade of the Immortal, Appleseed, Gunsmith Cats), so my bias might lean toward that style. But still, I loved that artist (sorry, I don't have the name on hand) yet I can completely understand the opinion of others who dislike the style choice of overshading and line usage. However, I was completely and utterly satisfied with this style of art - KEEP IT COMING!
I like the "Underwear Issue", I like the art style.
And actually that gnome is one of the highlights. It's not one of the "we're not pretty, but we're nice" shots I've become sick of over the years. They look like they don't quite fit in. Since they're sort-of fey, that's exactly what should be the case.
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I'll be honest, I haven't disliked any of the art in Pathfinder thus far, though I have certainly favored some pieces over others (the picture of Magnimar at the beginning of the city description in PF #2 stands out in my mind as the most amazing to date). I didn't mind the racial pictures in PF #3. They were comic-bookish and highly stylized, but that's not a bad thing, just different. If every single piece of artwork looked photo-realistic, then there wouldn't be enough variation to keep things interesting.
With that said, if you can get Todd Lockwood to do anything for Pathfinder, that would be amazing. He is my favorite fantasy artist of all time and I don't care that WotC seemed to use his work in every book they released. It was damn good stuff. I bought the Draconomicon for the art alone.
Ben Wooten. That's the best name ever. Woot.
Grim, you are the second person to shorten my name from Wootten to "Woot", maybe I should give up and sign my work that way ;)
Y'know. I liked that "underwear model" picture too. It's the first peice of art I've really seen that gave me a sense of the aesthetic for the setting as a whole. I like the big elves (holy crud they're big!) and the fact that they have those huge Lodoss War style bunny ears. It gives them a really fresh "not usual D&D look" I appreciate. Likewise after hearing a lot about how gnomes in Pathfinder are different, it was great to finally get a look at one and see--that yeah, they are different, pastel colored skin, anime eyes, rainbow sherbet colored hair and all. I also thought it was interesting that the half-orc has a nose and doesn't look like his name's Billy-bob. In fact he looks cool, like you could be friends with him. It really has been the launching off point for my ideas about the Golarion races.
That said, the Ben Grimm skin texture comment just about made me fall out of my chair.
Grim, you are the second person to shorten my name from Wootten to "Woot", maybe I should give up and sign my work that way ;)
If you did, you'd be my hero. Heh. So what stuff is yours? I've been through all the art so I'm pretty sure I've seen it.
If you did, you'd be my hero. Heh. So what stuff is yours? I've been through all the art so I'm pretty sure I've seen it.
Grim, you are the second person to shorten my name from Wootten to "Woot", maybe I should give up and sign my work that way ;)
In PF2 I did the Desna article, and PF3 the illos of Viperwall, repairing the keep, and Riddleport.
I can only hope none of that stuff hurt your looking parts.
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I also thought it was interesting that the half-orc has a nose and doesn't look like his name's Billy-bob. In fact he looks cool, like you could be friends with him.
Yeah I really liked the fact that the half-orc didn't look like a Neanderthal and more like a Uruki. I have never liked to play a half-orc for that reason and now I might have to give them a try.
Re: Cartoony Art.
I'd have to say Wayne Reynolds' style in the Pathfinder I've seen so far (I don't have #2 and #3 yet, but I have seen the preview images on this site) has straddled the line between realistic and stylized in a really good way. I'm really digging those images, and I don't think they are too 'comic book' or too 'cartoony'.
The portraits for most of the characters in #1 have been a little more stylized than I'd like, but I'm not turned off by them too badly, and would photocopy them for my players for handouts.
The Goblin Warchanter in #1 really didn't impress me, and it wasn't just the shriveled breasts that turned me off.
I like Kyle Hunter's cartoony art generally.
I always enjoyed the stylized monsters and characters in the 'table of contents' pages and around the titles of articles in the mags. I'm not sure what that kind of 'general purpose' art is called.
For use as character portraits or as descriptions of scenes, it wouldn't be my choice of style though. A more realistic take would be appreciated. Of course, Hunter's style on the portrait for Downer's Critical Threat was expected.
That said, I certainly can't draw as well as any of the artists in Pathfinder, so congrats to their mad skillz. I just wanted to chime in with an opinion that might reach the publishers.
In PF2 I did the Desna article, and PF3 the illos of Viperwall, repairing the keep, and Riddleport.
I can only hope none of that stuff hurt your looking parts.
I have seen references to Ben Wootten's artwork a few times but wasn't what was yours before now. I am now officially a Ben Wootten fan.
However, I don't think I'll be the one to start the Woot for Wootten campaign. (would be amusing though)
Grim, you are the second person to shorten my name from Wootten to "Woot", maybe I should give up and sign my work that way ;)
That might be fitting-- for my money you've the best eye for fantastic settings I've seen yet-- indeed, your backdrop of Sasserine is what hooked me on the "Savage Tide" campaign. Just wanted to let you know that the work you do *DOES* make a difference!
However, I don't think I'll be the one to start the Woot for Wootten campaign. (would be amusing though)
"Woot" maybe sounds a bit too much like an owl with a lisp!!
I don't know where it comes from--but Woot! on these boards and a few other places on the internet is an expression of enthusiasm and support, like Yay! or Whoo-hoo! or Yippie! So yeah, that's why you get that a lot.
Looking through your stuff I really love the Keep picture you did and the Riddleport coast. I think that stuff is really, really good. Certainly none of your stuff is bad enough to be the focus of my comments here. Don't worry, you done good!
Woot!
Woot! on these boards and a few other places on the internet is an expression of enthusiasm and support, like Yay! or Whoo-hoo! or Yippie! So yeah, that's why you get that a lot.
I'm 99% sure it started as an online gaming thing, and was originally w00t!
w(zero-zero)t
I think the art in Pathfinder has been getting better with each issue. There's still room for improvement though.
Okay...so what does W-double-zero-T mean? Anything?
Im not sure...I guess its like "pwned!" meaning getting a butt whoopin or if something is cool its "roxxorz!".
As long as Ive been on message boards I've seen "w00t!" as an expression of excitement like Huzzah!
I usually dislike internet speak but I liked woot and use it even in verbal conversation. :)
I've never asked where it came from.
Oh! And staying on topic...
The race lineup I liked.
But with the very tall and buff elf with really long ears..and with the cute gnome with the unatural colored hair I cannot help but think they are inspired by WoW.
Be honest...they are arent they?
In PF2 I did the Desna article, and PF3 the illos of Viperwall, repairing the keep, and Riddleport.
Ben! It's awesome to see your work in Pathfinder. The Viperwall illustration was one of the best background pieces I've seen so far. And I sincerely hope you keep contributing.
Also, I don't know if you remember, but we met at GenCon in 2005 at an off-site cookout with The Game Mechanics crew. You had a portfolio with you for King Kong at the time. Great stuff as well!
Best wishes,
--Neil
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Creative Director
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Oh! And staying on topic...
The race lineup I liked.
But with the very tall and buff elf with really long ears..and with the cute gnome with the unatural colored hair I cannot help but think they are inspired by WoW.Be honest...they are arent they?
They certainly are. And I don't have a problem with that, since a lot of what World of Warcraft does is actually really cool. And also to be honest... there's a lot more in WoW that's been inspired by D&D. (Gnolls, anyone?) It's certainly a two-way street.
The art in the Pathfinder series so far has been great. The maps are as good as I would expect them to be. But what has really stood out for me so far is the city and monument portraits..they really capture the feel of the places and that is invaluable in stirring the imagination.
Kudos to a top notch effort so far.
Im not sure...I guess its like "pwned!" meaning getting a butt whoopin or if something is cool its "roxxorz!".
As long as Ive been on message boards I've seen "w00t!" as an expression of excitement like Huzzah!
I usually dislike internet speak but I liked woot and use it even in verbal conversation. :)I've never asked where it came from.
Well from what I understand "roxxorz" comes from rocks--like "that rocks!" and the much disparaged -zor is a gamer all purpose suffix added to anything to make it cool and leet.
Pwned I always took to mean "pawned" like the little worthless chess pieces that endlessly get killed. I discovered from a friend however that it's apparently pronounced "poned" and apparently is just a more jargoned version of "owned".
They certainly are. And I don't have a problem with that, since a lot of what World of Warcraft does is actually really cool. And also to be honest... there's a lot more in WoW that's been inspired by D&D. (Gnolls, anyone?) It's certainly a two-way street.
THEY ARE?? Whoa. I really didn't expect that! Granted I'm not a huge WoW player, but I'd always thought the gnomes there were the little pudgy hobbit type. So is it just the look or was the gnomish culture based on stuff in WoW too?
If it is I might just grab my WoW junkie friend and have him give me the rundown (he loves that).
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Creative Director
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They certainly are. And I don't have a problem with that, since a lot of what World of Warcraft does is actually really cool. And also to be honest... there's a lot more in WoW that's been inspired by D&D. (Gnolls, anyone?) It's certainly a two-way street.THEY ARE?? Whoa. I really didn't expect that! Granted I'm not a huge WoW player, but I'd always thought the gnomes there were the little pudgy hobbit type. So is it just the look or was the gnomish culture based on stuff in WoW too?
If it is I might just grab my WoW junkie friend and have him give me the rundown (he loves that).
Actually, Warcraft gnomes are in fact little pudgy guys. They do have colorful hair, though; that's the part that was Warcraft inspired for them, really. The actual gnome shape and body proportions are actually not very Warcrafty at all.
Gnome culture in Golarion is VERY different than in Warcraft. In Golarion, they're mischievous fey nature types. In Warcraft, they're engineers and tinkers, more like the Dragonlance version of them.
In PF2 I did the Desna article, and PF3 the illos of Viperwall, repairing the keep, and Riddleport.Ben! It's awesome to see your work in Pathfinder. The Viperwall illustration was one of the best background pieces I've seen so far. And I sincerely hope you keep contributing.
Also, I don't know if you remember, but we met at GenCon in 2005 at an off-site cookout with The Game Mechanics crew. You had a portfolio with you for King Kong at the time. Great stuff as well!
Best wishes,
--Neil
Hi Neil, thanks for the great comments, nice to talk to you again. I would love to get back to Gen Con , if only New Zealand wasn't so far away.
Hi Neil, thanks for the great comments, nice to talk to you again. I would love to get back to Gen Con , if only New Zealand wasn't so far away.
And here I was thinking I'd love to get to New Zealand sometime, if only it wasn't so far away... ;-)
Runelord of Envy,
--Neil
They certainly are. And I don't have a problem with that, since a lot of what World of Warcraft does is actually really cool. And also to be honest... there's a lot more in WoW that's been inspired by D&D. (Gnolls, anyone?) It's certainly a two-way street.
Thats cool with me...WoW is cool. And yes there is TONS fo stuff from D&D that WoW has lifted...Its only fitting that it goes the other way around sometimes.
I do think its interesting that you assumed I was being negative when I asked if they were inspired by WoW. Not that I'm surprised though.
I wonder why so many D&D players are so anti-WoW.
Well I like most the the art. There are a number of really great pieces.
The overall look, however is somewhat diminished by such art as in PF#3 p22 or 2. This is personal taste only, but i can't get used to the ugly, block-like look of pictures such as these.
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Through all the books only one piece of art has really stood out as bad; the shot of Barl Breakbones on his throne whilst his bodyguard chucks a boulder at Valeros and Seoni.
Meanwhile there is a lot of good stuff; Lamatar Bayden, Riddleport, Terek "Earthbreaker" Charok, Seoni vs. the Vargouille, Valeros vs. Malfeshnekor, Aldern as The Skinsaw Man and all of the covers and bestiaries.
Yes, there's a fair share of average, but for me the good is outweighing the bad by a fair margin.