But I'm trying to make horse juice!!!
What's a dead horse's a.c.? I wanna max my power attack on this baby.
AC 12 wait... I'm prone, what's the mod?
*five minute delay*
-4
=AC 8
HP: 15 (except I'm dead so that's ummm...)
(this math is tough...)
*five minute delay*
(ummm)
(-10?)
(-10?)
According to the Dead template (which you can apply to any creature when it dies), -10 is right.
Where's the ignore function on these boards?
I find that once I'm good and hammered I don't even notice threads like this.
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I find that once I'm good and hammered I don't even notice threads like this.
Agreed, and yes I'm all lit up again.
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Kruelaid: As far as I can see, before Crosswiredmind shot the dead horse and left, he was endeavouring to communicate to you that since the MAJORITY of people in the circles that HE moves in have a problem with power attack, it is perfectly sensible- indeed the entirely logical thing to do- for WotC to 'do something about it'. With his 'judge' status he is apparently extremely Lawful, and feels duty bound to play with every rule whether he likes it or not- although that doesn't stop him from loathing such rules.
My apologies, Crosswiredmind, if I have not understood you correctly.
spot on mate - spot on
I find that once I'm good and hammered I don't even notice threads like this.
So alcohol is the answer again? That stuff rocks. I know several guys who weren't happy at work, and alc solved that problem (showed up drunk, got fired, no more job stress!) :P
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Well, I think I saw the horse move again, so I'll give it one last whack. Some people, Crosswired Mind being one of them, have had the experience that power attack seems to slow down combat when used by some players. A lot of people don't seem to have this problem with the feat, and see it as a valuable tool for melee types (particularly wielders of two-handed weapons)that lets their damage output scale with their attack bonus. Here's a good question. With power attack and other similar feats being replaced by book of nine swords type maneuvers, will it really speed up game play? If a player takes five minutes to decide whether he wants to power attack for 5 or 6, will it really take him any less time to decide which manuever (spell) he wants to use this round? Then when he decides which one to use, he has to crack open the PHB to read the full description of what it does, whereas, he already knows what power attack does. So with what we know about 4th edition fighters (yes, I know it's limited), will game play really be hastened, as opposed to 3.5?
So with what we know about 4th edition fighters (yes, I know it's limited), will game play really be hastened, as opposed to 3.5?
I'm inclined to say "no, it won't."
But every time I brought that up before, I was lumped into the "irrational 4th Edition hating" group. (Note: I am not trying to say it was undeserved - that is for another thread.) So, the point was ignored/dismissed.
But I still believe that combat won't be any faster. And with the addition of "social combat" rules, I can't see how the game as a whole will be faster.
I still strongly believe that WotC has falsely marketed the new edition. But I can still be proven wrong.
Here's a good question. With power attack and other similar feats being replaced by book of nine swords type maneuvers, will it really speed up game play?
It's easy to ask: What is faster: Deciding on the power attack level and resolving it or deciding on a spell and solving that?
My personal experience (which could be a singular case, but I suspect otherwise) is that power attack takes seconds, but magic can take minutes. Especially when the number of sources goes up.
So, for 5e, expect all magic and magic-like stuff is gone, and Wizards will bad-mouth the guys who had the nerve to put it into the game and make it the major ability for every single class. ;-)
This past gaming session, a player in my group said he was going to grapple. I secretly looked at my watch and noted the exact time. 47 seconds later the DM was onto the next person. I interruped him and said, "See. Was that so hard? Why do we need a whole new edition just for that?" I later thought that we should videotape that, send it to WotC and let them know that they can cancel 4E. (Of course I also think I should be appointed ruler of Alpha Centari, but that's another tale.) Why did it take us so little time? Because we know the rules.
IME, those that are slowed down the most by things like Power Attack and Grapple can fit into one of three categories: 1) those that don't know the rules 2) munchkins, and 3) those that are generally indecisive. #1 is the easiest to fix of the three and it just happens to be the one that the dumb WotC video displayed at GenCon as to why Grapple's a bad thing.
This is true with ANY game...
My point exactly.
I don't know whetehr those things won't make it worse in 4e
Not knowing the rules: If you think it was bad with grapple and power attack, wait until every class gets spells (a spell by every other name...)
Munchkins: D&D will always be Munchkin Central. No chance of that ever being different. Unless they stop doing new rules all the time (fat chance)
Indecisive: Again, giving everyone powers that work like spells will be worse than letting someone choose whether they use 2 or 3 points of power attack
Lack of Sleep, distractions, and so on: Again, I can see it only getting worse.
There's one we missed:
Just Plain Stupid: If you're really stupid, you'll be lost with grapple, and the calculations involved with power attack will kill you. I must say, though, that the terminally stupid aren't drawn to D&D all that much, despite what Wizards seems to think. I haven't really had a case where someone had problems due to sheer stupidity. There's one guy that comes close, but it's more lack of attention there. We never let him play spellcasters.
And, like many others, this could get only worse if you have to manage powers with every character.
As long as those special abilities involve thinking rather than mashing buttons, like they do in Diablo or games like that, that level of complexity will slow down the game more than power attack ever could, even if you started to make it percentages or something (5% less attack = 5% more damage or something)
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It's not that grapple is difficult or time consuming - grapple is overly complicated for what it actually does.
Roll to hit touch AC
See if AoO is generated.
If so defender swings.
Does the defender hit - no? Ok.
Now both roll grapple checks.
Make sure that all modifiers are accounted for.
Ok - attacker wins.
(now is usually where confusion sets in ...)
Who moves into which square? When do I do grapple damage. Damn - I forgot my armor spikes. If someone shoots at the defender can I accidentally hit the other guy? What if the grappled guy tries to cast a spell? When does that pinned thing happen? Are fists a light weapon? What if someone bull rushes the grappled guy?
MAKE IT STOP!
Simplicity is not always the search for the lowest common denominator. Some times simplicity can create truly elegant solution that make thing work better. If you can reach the same outcome with less crap to pile through then I am all for it.
OMG, why did we have to bring grapple into this.
It's not that grapple is difficult or time consuming - grapple is overly complicated for what it actually does.
*snip*
See case 1) not knowing the rules. A color spray or web spell can be just as complicated if you are not familiar with them. This is a player problem, not a system problem. Unless you drastically simplify the combat system to make all effects into an attack/damage mechanic (sound familiar?), which also drastically limits the options of the combatants, this problem will remain. Heck, even if you do dumb down the game to the "play a maneuver/power card" level, there will be people who will find things complicated.
It's not that grapple is difficult or time consuming - grapple is overly complicated for what it actually does.
Roll to hit touch AC
See if AoO is generated.
If so defender swings.
Does the defender hit - no? Ok.
Now both roll grapple checks.
Make sure that all modifiers are accounted for.
Ok - attacker wins.
(now is usually where confusion sets in ...)
Who moves into which square? When do I do grapple damage. Damn - I forgot my armor spikes. If someone shoots at the defender can I accidentally hit the other guy? What if the grappled guy tries to cast a spell? When does that pinned thing happen? Are fists a light weapon? What if someone bull rushes the grappled guy?
MAKE IT STOP!
Simplicity is not always the search for the lowest common denominator. Some times simplicity can create truly elegant solution that make thing work better. If you can reach the same outcome with less crap to pile through then I am all for it.
Fix #1: Learn the rules. Its not that hard if you just know what you're doing. If players don't know what they're doing, why are they doing it? (Common Counter #1: How else are they going to learn the rules? A: Watch someone else who knows what they're doing while they're playing something else.)
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He's right.
The rules for grapple are needlessly complicated. Even experienced players who can figure grapple rules often have to stop and look things up because of some of the more complicated maneuvers, like removing an item from a pinned opponent.
That said, just because grapple could use some streamlining doesn't mean that we need a new edition. The thing that makes 3.5 so appealing is how easily rules like that are changed.
Bigger problems are how some rules are built upon things like expected wealth per level guidelines - that isn't easily fixed by addressing only a single issue - it ties in to multiple issues (CR, XP, ECL, etc).
In any case, obviously some people will look forward to a 4th edition. I'm in support of future editions in principle. I'm just not happy with WotC, and I'm not happy with the bits and pieces I know about 4th edition.
Maybe, though, it will be the wake up call to make 5th edition everything that 3rd edition could be with some streamlining and tweaks, and maybe it will involve the Triumphant Return of Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
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We can only hope. I also agree with new editions and progress if they are done for the right reasons, and not right one top of each other. The ink was barely dry on the core 3.5 books when they started working on 4th edition. 4th edition just seems like it is really just about fleecing customers's pocketbooks, not about improving the game and giving customers what they want and expect. Do we really need a new edition to fix grapple and power attack? No! Obvioulsy WotC thinks they need a new edition to boost sales to appease their coprorate overlords, and not to make the game better.
That said, just because grapple could use some streamlining doesn't mean that we need a new edition. The thing that makes 3.5 so appealing is how easily rules like that are changed.
Exactly. Is there a single change mentioned thus far that couldn't work quite well in Unearthed Arcana II?
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Yes, yes. Learn the rules. Been there and done that.
But here's the thing. The rule comes up so infrequently and has far too many steps. That combination often requires a rules check.
There are games out there that do not require that kind of complexity and they still work.
So print them out and tape them to your DM screens. Or take a few hours and come up with some solid house rule that doesn't need to be referenced every time it occurs.
Or, alternatively, throw out the entire game and go find one that doesn't have grapple rules.
Which will you choose? ;)
So you're complaining about something that comes up once every leap year?
We don't need a new edition for that. That's like saying because I don't like how 3e handles boots of elvenkind, I don't play 3e (okay, that's exaggerated, but it's along the same line).
If something comes up so infrequently that no one remembers the rules, just ignore that rule. Since it is so rare, the game won't break down because of it.
That having been said: Since I frequently use grapple, we're all pretty much know the rules by heart. Many of the options you can do with a grapple check are usually ignored, and due to usual creature abilities, the AoO (and the "do you still get to grapple" step) are usually ignored
So print them out and tape them to your DM screens.
My DM has printed out on cards all the less frequently used rules and gave us all a set of those cards at first session (or when we joined, in my case). They're simple, easy to use and great for quick reference. With an 8ish font size, they all fit on two sides of an 8-1/2 x 11 piece of paper.
PC gets fatigued: Look at the card to find out the effects. Getting grappled: Look at the card to find out how to get out of it. What are fear effects again? Look at the card and find out.
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When I need to know the rules for grapple I ask my 7-year-old. He remembers them no problem and tells me. Can't be that hard, eh?
Seriously, I haven't invested that heavily in 3.5 but I see no reason to switch either. I go where Paizo goes.
Implication - if you do not know all of the grapple rules you are an idiot.
Nice contribution to the thread.
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So you're complaining about something that comes up once every leap year?
We don't need a new edition for that. That's like saying because I don't like how 3e handles boots of elvenkind, I don't play 3e (okay, that's exaggerated, but it's along the same line).
If something comes up so infrequently that no one remembers the rules, just ignore that rule. Since it is so rare, the game won't break down because of it.
That having been said: Since I frequently use grapple, we're all pretty much know the rules by heart. Many of the options you can do with a grapple check are usually ignored, and due to usual creature abilities, the AoO (and the "do you still get to grapple" step) are usually ignored
Ignore rules. Ok.
So rules get ignored and others get house rule treatment. If you get enough of those then the rules need to be fixed - a new edition perhaps.
I believe that 3.5 has hit that point.
I played the world wide game day this year while traveling for business. I played with a group with four people that play together all the time their GM, me, and one other wanderer.
They had many house rules and rules they did not play as written but did not realize it and rules they just plain ignored. The two of us at the table that were not a part of their group were constantly correcting their understanding of basic mechanics. It was as if they were playing a completely different game.
When I asked them about 4E they said that they were looking forward to it so the whole thing could be fixed.
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When I need to know the rules for grapple I ask my 7-year-old. He remembers them no problem and tells me. Can't be that hard, eh?
Seriously, I haven't invested that heavily in 3.5 but I see no reason to switch either. I go where Paizo goes.
Implication - if you do not know all of the grapple rules you are an idiot.
Nice contribution to the thread.
Not at all. Tarren Dei admitted he/she didn't know the rules, and had to ask his/her 7 year old. I doubt that the person is self-identifying as an idiot...
If you inferred something different, that's your issue.
Nice troll, though. ;)
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That having been said: Since I frequently use grapple, we're all pretty much know the rules by heart. Many of the options you can do with a grapple check are usually ignored, and due to usual creature abilities, the AoO (and the "do you still get to grapple" step) are usually ignored
Ignore rules. Ok.
That's not what I read him saying. People don't exercise the other options when grappling. I can say the same thing about my group - we rarely use the many options... it's usually just trying to get free of the grapple (or doing damage if the grapple was initiated by the PC). As for the second use of the word ignore, that was because the rule just didn't come into play as it was overridden by a creature feat (Improved Grapple, I assume, or other mosterly feats/abilities that disallow an AoO).
So rules get ignored and others get house rule treatment. If you get enough of those then the rules need to be fixed - a new edition perhaps.
I believe that 3.5 has hit that point.
Excellent, then I guess enjoy yourself playing 4e. :) However, they aren't fixing anything... they are starting from scratch and just using the same names for things that are no longer the same. That is just going to introduce a ton of new problems and inconsistencies that are possibly the same, likely different, from the existing problems and inconsistencies that people have already fixed on their own by using house rules or not using some rules at all.
I played the world wide game day this year while traveling for business. I played with a group with four people that play together all the time their GM, me, and one other wanderer.
They had many house rules and rules they did not play as written but did not realize it and rules they just plain ignored. The two of us at the table that were not a part of their group were constantly correcting their understanding of basic mechanics. It was as if they were playing a completely different game.
Did they appreciate being constantly corrected for using their own house rules that they obviously enjoyed playing by? Were they not playing right?
When I asked them about 4E they said that they were looking forward to it so the whole thing could be fixed.
So first you indicate that they are boobs for not knowing the existing rules that have been around for several years, then you use them as an example to illustrate that people are looking forward to 4e? They couldn't follow the original RAW so what makes you think they'll do any better with 4e? It would be disingenuous to say that 4e is a natural extension of 3.x since the rules are so different. They might as well switch to M&M or GURPS if they want a different set of rules to fix things.
AC 12
prone -4
=AC 8 (calculate that power attack)
HP: -10
AC 12
prone -4
=AC 8 (calculate that power attack)
HP: -10
It just occurred to me that we have been beating this thing so long that we may have offended its collective horse spirit . . . we may be dealing with an undead horse soon.
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Did they appreciate being constantly corrected for using their own house rules that they obviously enjoyed playing by?
The two of us that were outsider made the assumption that things worked as described in the book. We made choices based on the rules. When we were told it did not work that way and that their way was actually an incorrect application and not a house rule then of course we corrected them. When house rules came up too often the other guy asked them to go by the book since he and I did not know what game they were playing.
They did not like it.
Then again he and I were completely put out having to play Calvin Ball D&D where the rules seemed to change on a whim. The store owner happened to be walking by and asked the GM to go by the book because other slots later that day would also expect to go more by the book.
They saw our perspective, agreed to it, and we played on.
The rest of the game went great and they asked us to join their regular group and appreciated that we both knew the rules so well. They did not have time to figure them all out and just went with what they felt was right.
Were they not playing right?
No they were not. When you run a demo game, public event, or an RPGA event, then the house rules need to be left at the door. The players at the table will not have a common baseline other than the rules as they appear in the PHB, MM, and DMG.
When playing D&D outside of your regular group the choice to play by house rules is not playing the game the right way.
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It just occurred to me that we have been beating this thing so long that we may have offended its collective horse spirit . . . we may be dealing with an undead horse soon.
AC 12
prone -4
=AC 8 (calculate that power attack)
HP: -10
Cool.
Let's see if we can get a few other templates on it - fiendish, dire, half dragon, undead horse ... of legend.
I'm not really posting on a 4e thread as much as giving KEJr a shout out, so this doesn't count.
Well, given that my post was post commenting on a post that was commenting on the overall activity of the thread (kind of a metapost), I'd say that my post effectively counts as an off topic digression, which means that your post really doesn't count as having anything to do with the topic at hand.
So for purposes of your vow of sanity, you have broken anything yet.
I finally figured out what's up with crosswiredmind.
He's not as arrogant as he comes across, he's just having trouble saying what he means and so he continually has to post to clarify what he's saying.
CWM:
Dude, you continuum model as first posted sucked. When you tell us you are correcting people you sound like a dick. When you bray about playing by the rules and being a judge you come across as sounding self important (and then say elsewhere 'who uses spell failure' = hypocrite?). I'm thinking you really aren't like this, that there's a nice guy in there who is just having trouble rephrasing stuff so people click to what you are saying.
I'm happy to see a 4th ed, too. But 3.5 ain't broken, it's just not what some people want. And frankly, until 4th comes out, this is all just a bunch of hot air.
If we are going to do something useful, let's post house rule improvements to awkward rules and contribute instead of nipping away at each other like a bunch of fools. I really appreciate all the guys who have done that on this thread, and elsewhere, because I've only been playing 3.5 for a year, I can't churn this stuff out as easily, and I haven't had the time to test anything like that.
It just occurred to me that we have been beating this thing so long that we may have offended its collective horse spirit . . . we may be dealing with an undead horse soon.
Maybe we can just get a Paladin to smite all of 4E. At the very least, maybe they can smite it into 2010, where it belongs.