Hello all,
Sorry if this has been asked/answered before (tried to find on the boards, with no luck).
I've read through the Pathfinder Player's Guide and the first two Adventure Paths, and I am having trouble visualizing the Human Ethnicities outlined in Pathfinder.
I'd like to know if there exists a crosswalk/comparison (on the boards or other) of how the Human Ethnicities in Pathfinder compare (visually) to Real-Life Ethnicities.... What do they look like? -- In terms my players can quickly visualize/identify.
---Like:
Are the Chelaxians; Asian?
Are the Shoanti; Black?, Hispanic?
Are the Varisians; Arab?, European?
Or do they resemble: Greek, Hawaiian, Italian, German, Russian, Irish, Chinese, Aboriginal, Philippino, Brazilian, Swedish,... etc, etc.
The **more specific** the better
– it really helps to be able to visually identify with something you know… Real-Life comparisons.
Thanks-
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Varisians:
Rather obviously directly inspired by gypsies (roma, if you want to be prickly about that sort of thing). The differences are obviously that these Roma have a homeland to call their own, and seem a wee bit more settled, though still quite mobile comparatively. You could also throw in some spanish or mexican themes if you want.
Shoanti could be seen as a synthesis of african and native american cultures, (call it 40%/60%). Use the same spiritual mumbo-jumbo for flavor, at least among the druids, but you could up the "zulu warrior" vibe for the barbarians. Remember, Varisia is more likened to a rather rocky, cliffy california than midwestern forrest or sub-saharan africa, so dont go for a straight port.
Chelaxians are self-importaint city-slickers. Their actual real-world-analogue ethnicity is immaterial. Where ever snooty rich people have gathered together to drink wine and make snide comments about eachother, there are this world's chelaxians. Culturally, they probably vaguely resemble the roman empire a little before it's fall, although they arent actually falling rapidly so much as decaying. their peripheral settlements seem to be doing quite well. They are, for the most part, though, the "Normal" humans, the ones we white middle-class people would likely most personally identify with. But, if you plan on not just playing a "normal human" (few humans could be considered to be normal) and playing a chelaxian to the hilt, it can be quite fun. look to the east-coast "old Money" of america for examples (lois's family from Family Guy, or Elliot and her family on Scrubs, to name one or two examples off of my head). Regardless of actual financial situation, they all act rich.
That's my perception, but I'm sure others could explain it better, and come up with more (and better) examples.
I'd like to see Pathfinder work to avoid one for one exchanges for culture. Earths historical cultures are products of history, geography and maybe genetics. There probably is more to it then this but my point is that these aspects just don't really apply in a fantasy world. In a fantasy world there are different factors influencing things.
Now I don't expect the designers to completely invent things or make the groups blue skinned or anything but trying to completely copy Egyptians also seems to stretch things. The cultures might be inspired to a certian extent by our cultures but they should reflect the reality as it exists within the fantasy world.
Varisians:
Rather obviously directly inspired by gypsies (roma, if you want to be prickly about that sort of thing).
I wouldn't say prickly, rather more precise, since the term gypsy has been tagged on many non-Roma, the Irish Travellers, for instance.
In anycase, apart from the Varisians, I'm also having a hard time visually nailing the ethnicities, something that only came up when my prospective gaming group asked specific questions I couldn't really answer off the top of my head.
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Having a bunch of pseudo-Roma whose villanous gangs are Szcarni seemed a bit close to the bone to me.
Perhaps it doesn't translate across the ocean but in Britain "Carnis", Carni-folk" and related terms are something of a slur - in fact there's a unspoken "theiving" before the term Carni in most conversations that employ it.
Whilst this is very apt for the in game Szcarni it does feel a bit off to build a bunch of thieves from a racial slur.
Or do they resemble: Greek, Hawaiian, Italian, German, Russian, Irish, Chinese, Aboriginal, Philippino, Brazilian, Swedish,... etc, etc.
The **more specific** the better
My wife really appreciated that you threw Filipinos in there, although them Pinoys like to write it with the F and one p because it confuses the hell out of the rest of the world.
She thinks the fact that Filipino culture is a little pastiche might pose a problem though. She was just b&$*!ing about a news stream from Manila--the broadcasters can't stick to one language for more than 20 seconds....
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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She thinks the fact that Filipino culture is a little pastiche might pose a problem though. She was just b~#@~ing about a news stream from Manila--the broadcasters can't stick to one language for more than 20 seconds....
I noticed that watching the Filipino Who wants to be a Millionare on AZN once. I don't speak Tagalog (and I do know to pronounce it Ta-gal-og, not Tag-a-log) It was like that farside cartoon "blah blah blah one million dollars blah blah blah question blah blah."
Left me confused as all hell.
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I lived in the Philippines for a couple of years via the Peace Corps. It's such a varied place, geographically and ethnically, you could set a whole campaign there. From the mega urban sprawl of the capital, to tropical islands with fishing villages and pirates, to mountain tribes complete with retired headhunters, to exotic sultinates. It's almost a misnomer to talk about "Filipinos" because of all the different cultures crammed into 7000+ islands - Tagalogs, Ilocanos, Viscayans, Moros, Igorots, etc. Crazy, wonderful, frustrating place :)
By the way, the lady who hosts Game Ka Na Ba ("Are you ready for a game" = Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?) is/was Chris Aquino, daughter of Corazon Aquino, the lady who became president after Marcos got the boot.
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Speaking of ethnic equivalences, does anyone else use Everchanging Book of Names as a name generator? (Or, for the Paizo folks, how do you choose your names?) Are there good culture chapters to use there when you need a new name, or are there plans to put together Golarion chapters, as there currently are for Greyhawk and the Realms?
Thanks,
Drew Garrett
Thanks for the responses-
Some really good stuff – cultural stuff from Jodah, Mike M. outlining some skin/hair coloring-
However… not quite on point of what I am actually asking.
I think the cultural stuff is great and the brief dark hair/light skin thing is a great start-
But what do the different humans **look** like?
Who do they resemble (visually) in real-life?
For instance- The Sherriff appears black in the picture found in the Players Guide (actually sorta looks like Bo Jackson to me-gotta love Bo,, one of the best!)… so does that follow that the Sheriff’s brother is/looks Black/African’’issh?
Mike M. – just need more clarification on your post:
“Shoanti range from pale to dark skin and from pale to dark hair. Really, a mish-mash.”
Shoanti: Does this then mean; some Shoanti look Black, some look Asian, some look Caucaisian? – all with the bald heads, etc. or course..
“Chelaxians have pale skin, sharp features, and black straight hair”
I’m just confused- is this Russian, Asian …some kind of combo???
Varisians have tan skin and black wavy hair.
Still confused- Italian, Mexican… (half-n-half)?
I’m just having a real hard time visualizing…
Sorry if I’m being a pain in the a@@... I can’t be the only guy with a mental blank on this one…
Again- I'm really looking to visualize the LOOK (racially) of the humans (not the dress or culture)
Thanks again guys – let me know
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You know as one insomniac to 2 others, Master Ninja McArtor and Doctor James Jacobs it may be worth it for all of us to pitch in and get the bulk discount for ambien.
Back to thread.
I tend to go to bed at a reasonable time. But not always. Jacobs and Vic are really the ones who need to go to sleep once in a while. I've seen posts from Vic at 3am!?!?!
Perhaps it doesn't translate across the ocean
It doesn't translate across the ocean. In America, "carnie" just means someone who works at a carnival. If we tried to make every single fake word non-offensive to every one of Earth's languages, we'd never be able to name anything ever.
We're mindful of the terms we know are offensive, which is why we avoid using the word "gypsy," since in Hungarian (or was that Romanian?) it means "trash."
However… not quite on point of what I am actually asking.
I think the cultural stuff is great and the brief dark hair/light skin thing is a great start-
I know. But you might have realized by now that we're trying really hard to not just compare one of our fake ethnicities with a real-world ethnicity. Which of our products do you own? I can point out the Golarion ethnicity of every character we've illustrated if you want.
At the risk of being un-PC, here's my interpretation.
Shoanti: A little bit of everything, as they're not racially grouped. (American Heinz-57 if you will.)
Chelaxians: Jewish.
Varisian: Arabic.
The hardest thing I have with the races of Varisia is that I can't seem to justify them in my head with the geography. How do the darker skinned Shoanti and Varisians live so far north of the pale skinned equatorial Cheliax?
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The hardest thing I have with the races of Varisia is that I can't seem to justify them in my head with the geography. How do the darker skinned Shoanti and Varisians live so far north of the pale skinned equatorial Cheliax?
The Shoanti is an easy answer: They are not native to the area.
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The hardest thing I have with the races of Varisia is that I can't seem to justify them in my head with the geography. How do the darker skinned Shoanti and Varisians live so far north of the pale skinned equatorial Cheliax?
Keeping in mind that Varisia and Cheliax are technically post-apocalyptic locations, you'll have a lot of refugee populations moving around and resettling areas. The Chelaxians might have come from a more notherly part of Thassilon that's currently deep underwater. And 10,000 years isn't necessarily enough time for microevolution to make a big change in pigmentation.
Shoanti: A little bit of everything, as they're not racially grouped. (American Heinz-57 if you will.)
...so (just indulge me here) – just to get this one clear in my mind:
A Shoanti can look like a bald; Brad Pitt, Halle Berry, Edward James Olmos, Samuel Jackson, or Demi Moore? (just using big names to relate) --- correct or I’m way off?How about the different Tribes within the Shoanti – any racial/ethnic groupings?
Hey Mike M. –
I can absolutely/totally see where you’re coming from –
It actually **would** be very helpful (at least to me) to have a listing of Golarion ethnicities of all characters illustrated to date.
I’m pretty sure I own all the GameMastery and Pathfinder print product to date... so it might be somewhat of a task/list...
But, I’ll take you up on your offer, if it’s not too much hassle :-)
I'm puzzled by the text descriptions of the Varisians and their incongruity with the image of Seoni. How is she dark-complexioned and dark-haired?
I'm puzzled by the text descriptions of the Varisians and their incongruity with the image of Seoni. How is she dark-complexioned and dark-haired?
Dye job.
The hardest thing I have with the races of Varisia is that I can't seem to justify them in my head with the geography. How do the darker skinned Shoanti and Varisians live so far north of the pale skinned equatorial Cheliax?
...that's easy.
A wizard did it.
Creative Director
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I'm puzzled by the text descriptions of the Varisians and their incongruity with the image of Seoni. How is she dark-complexioned and dark-haired?
Seoni is a sorcerer, and therefore has some sort of alien blood in her heritage. I suspect one of her parents or grandparents was an aasimar or tiefling or something like that. In any event, her appearance is certainly unlike the average Varisian, but then again... not all Varisians are tan and dark-haired. Just most of them.
The Shoanti is an easy answer: They are not native to the area.
Keeping in mind that Varisia and Cheliax are technically post-apocalyptic locations, you'll have a lot of refugee populations moving around and resettling areas.
These are good answers and I guess I didn't see the scope of the end of Thasillonia. Is this something that will be revealed to PCs at some point or is it supposed to be common player knowledge?
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By the way, the lady who hosts Game Ka Na Ba ("Are you ready for a game" = Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?) is/was Chris Aquino, daughter of Corazon Aquino, the lady who became president after Marcos got the boot.
This is a very true story... A long time ago, in a country far, far away, i took her to prom... bleh (by the way how do you people know this stuff, that stuff actually freaks me out)
I tend to go to bed at a reasonable time. But not always. Jacobs and Vic are really the ones who need to go to sleep once in a while. I've seen posts from Vic at 3am!?!?
Umm i post at 5 am EST
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Hey Mike M. –
I can absolutely/totally see where you’re coming from –
It actually **would** be very helpful (at least to me) to have a listing of Golarion ethnicities of all characters illustrated to date.
I’m pretty sure I own all the GameMastery and Pathfinder print product to date... so it might be somewhat of a task/list...
But, I’ll take you up on your offer, if it’s not too much hassle :-)
Let's focus on Pathfinder, then, since that seems to be where most of your questions lie. (And yeah, these might be off a little because not everyone is pure-blooded in one ethnicity or another.) :)
James can correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes...
RotRL PG
Page 3: Varisian
Page 4: Varisian
Page 13: Chelaxian
Page 14: Chelaxian
Page 15: Chelaxian
Page 16: Shoanti
PF 1
Cover: Chelaxian or Taldan, I'm guessing
Page 16: Chelaxian
Page 17 (background): Chelaxian
Page 23: Tian
Page 28: Varisian (not typical)
Page 46: Who knows?
Page 50: Garundi
Page 65: Chelaxian or Taldan, I'm guessing
Page 67: Varisian
Page 68: Tian
Page 70: Chelaxian
Page 82: Who knows? Probably mixed-blood.
Page 84: Who knows? Probably mixed-blood.
PF 1
Cover: Varisian (not typical)
Page 6 (background): Kellid or Ulfen, I'm guessing
Page 10: Shoanti
Page 17: Who knows? Probably mixed-blood.
Page 29: Looks half-Varisian/half Chelaxian OR Chelaxian
Page 61: Varisian?
Page 69: Who knows? Probably mixed-blood. Likely part Varisian.
Page 73: Who knows? Probably mixed-blood. Likely part Varisian.
Is that a good start?
Ya, VERY cool - thanks Mike,
I'll check them out and see if I get less.. or more confused.
I'm shooting for less :-)
... add the GameMastery stuff whenever you get a chance-
Thanks again- this thread has been **very** helpful :)
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The hardest thing I have with the races of Varisia is that I can't seem to justify them in my head with the geography. How do the darker skinned Shoanti and Varisians live so far north of the pale skinned equatorial Cheliax?
But we have the same situation in the Real World, too. Eskimos, Innuits, Laplanders, etc. are all dark-skinned peoples living far north of pale-skinned peoples. So is there really a need to justify the same situation in Golarion?
I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."
That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.
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I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.
Yes, I read about it in an article years ago. It is believed that the original gypsies [or Roma or Romany] might have migrated from India. The name "gypsy" was attached to them by Europeans that weren't aware of where they came from.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.
Hmm, related to tinkerers...
Maybe it should be pronounced Ypsy?
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1]A change in pigmentation isn't evolution.
What would it be, then? Magic? Intelligent Design? If one population is born with more melanin than another population, there has to be a genetic basis.
2]10,000 would be enough time for a separate gene pool to change pigmention. But yes, I agree that it wouldn't necessarily HAVE to happen.
That's what I said.
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What would it be, then? Magic? Intelligent Design? If one population is born with more melanin than another population, there has to be a genetic basis.
1]A change in pigmentation isn't evolution.
What it would be is variation among a species. Possibly a new race. A human population developing a new skin color is still a human population. Africans, Asians, Europeans, etc. might have different skin colors, but they're still all the same species. None of them have evolved past human.
We’re making this far too complex.
There is a much easier way to differentiate between Shoanti, Varisian and Chellaxian. Simply attack. If you get your butt kicked, you have just met a Shoanti. (You may perhaps make a Heal check to examine your bruises to see if you can determine which specific clan has torn you a new one).
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might have different skin colors, but they're still all the same species. None of them have evolved past human.
No one is claiming they're no longer human. People who don't develop wisdom teeth are not inhuman, but it's evolution driving the loss of wisdom teeth in the human species. There was a reason I used the very specific term "microevolution" in my initial post.
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I see a lot of discussion about what a Varisian/Chelaxian/Shoanti/Whatever should look like. In fact, physical appearance is one thing, but cultural background is another when determining things like that.
For exemple, Seoni's ancestors might be from another culture but came to live with the Varisian for whatever reason. After a couple generations living among Varisians, you can consider Seoni a Varisian because she has the habits/culture of a Varisian, even if she doesn't look like one. It could also happen if she was an orphan who grew up with Varisian adoptive parents. And it would perfectly explain why she would have Varisian Tatoos even if she doesn't look like a typical Varisian at first sight.
Another example would be Ameiko. Her parents are from Xian-Tia, a far away Asian-like country, but would you consider her 100% Tian? Yes, she knows the language, heard stories from there and learned some cultural habits, but I would likely have her be more at ease around Chelaxians since she was born and raised in that culture.
When my players asked me about the different cultures of humans presented in RotRL PG, I told them more about the culture/habits of each one rather than any physical ressemblance. They had the few bits they needed to create their own look in the PG and I didn't ask them to look 100% like a purely native of an ethnicity.
My point is that, it's a lot more telling to me if I read/hear "Varisian BEHAVE like Gypsies (or whatever nicer word there is for it)" than if I read/hear "Varisians LOOK like Gypsies"...
But we have the same situation in the Real World, too. Eskimos, Innuits, Laplanders, etc. are all dark-skinned peoples living far north of pale-skinned peoples. So is there really a need to justify the same situation in Golarion?
LIES!!
By which I mean, of course, valid point. And I would buy that counter argument if the Shoanti lived in an arctic environment. As it stands, they live in the hot-sounding Cinderlands. I'm seeing a dark-skinned society living in a desert/badlands environment inexplicably far north of the pale Chelaxians.
Since I've completely re-envisioned the Shoanti in my home version of Varisia, it's not a big concern, but that was one of the reasons I altered them in the first place.
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Another example would be Ameiko. Her parents are from Xian-Tia, a far away Asian-like country, but would you consider her 100% Tian? Yes, she knows the language, heard stories from there and learned some cultural habits, but I would likely have her be more at ease around Chelaxians since she was born and raised in that culture.
Very close. She's ethnically Tian and her family is from the continent of Tian-Xia and the country of Minkai. :)
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By which I mean, of course, valid point. And I would buy that counter argument if the Shoanti lived in an arctic environment. As it stands, they live in the hot-sounding Cinderlands. I'm seeing a dark-skinned society living in a desert/badlands environment inexplicably far north of the pale Chelaxians.
Since I've completely re-envisioned the Shoanti in my home version of Varisia, it's not a big concern, but that was one of the reasons I altered them in the first place.
Once again. Shoanti isn't an ethnicity. It's not a morphology. It's a culture. Shoantis are best thought of as the Americans of Varisia, as they come from numerous ethnicities and have been jumbled together into a mixing pot of sorts. Culture. Not ethnicity.
Culture.
Not ethnicity.
Shoantis are best thought of as the Americans of Varisia, as they come from numerous ethnicities and have been jumbled together into a mixing pot of sorts.
SPOILERS...maybe?
Does this have anything to do with their past existence working with the Runelords?
It would honestly make for a compelling mystery for the PCs to discover why the Shoanti are a mix of various Golarion cultures and ultimately discover how the Runelords brought them there. Will there be an opportunity for a reveal like this?
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SPOILERS...maybe?
Does this have anything to do with their past existence working with the Runelords?
It would honestly make for a compelling mystery for the PCs to discover why the Shoanti are a mix of various Golarion cultures and ultimately discover how the Runelords brought them there. Will there be an opportunity for a reveal like this?
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I think . . .
There are two elements here that do not need to conflict.
The first is a need to categorize and identify.
If the various ethnicities of Golarion, or any campaign world for that matter, can be directly linked to real world ethnicities, and cultures to cultures for that matter, it makes it easier for many people, myself included, to identify and relate to them.
The second is the contrasting views on how much linkage is useful for a setting. How far should links should be taken.
These do not have to be in opposition.
There can be mixing and matching between ethnicities. (Body type this way, hair that way, skin pigmentation another way.)
There can be mixing and matching between cultures. (Romans but with Mesoamerican religion and such.)
There can be mixing and matching between ethnicities and cultures. (They look Asian but act European. They look African but act American.)
Between the two, you can come up with a few quick and easy labels to give a basis for identifying a group, while still keeping them completely distinct from any real world group.
That is what I would like to see. So even if the Shoanti are culturally like X with some Y and Z mixed in, they can be ehtnically like A, B, and C. I now have a shortcut to how they behave and what they look like, and I am not locked into them being just some cheap fantasy knockoff verging on stereotype of any of those groups.