I wonder if there are any plans for some ancient mythology of Golarion, like creation myths and ancient stories of the gods.
My reason for asking is that when I played Middle-Earth, understanding the myths of the Silmarillion added a lot of depth to our campaign world, and even came up during role playing now and then.
I mean something that explains creation, explains and gives color to the relationships between the gods, explains the presence of good and evil, and so on. All of those topics that we come to expect in our mythologies, but are sometimes lacking in campaign worlds (we tend to see some bios of the gods and a little bit of fluff). This stuff really interests me.
You guys are working on this, right?
Are other Dms and players interested in this?
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I'm very interested in a new setting's mythology but, frankly, I think developers drop the ball. I don't know if it's ingrained D&D mentality or that gods are usually farmed out individually for development, but they’re fragmentary. Most gamers simply define divinity in a framework of domain portfolios, like trading cards, and overlook why pantheons are so interesting: they’re patterned after families – dysfunctional families. Warring brothers, estranged sisters, jilted spouses, dueling lovers, fallen children, it’s these relationships that give mythology its punch and help delineate mankind’s ideologies. A good pantheon is a soap opera. I know there’s a lot to be said for the assimilation and re-branding of regional gods as cultures mix, but this game should be a platform for drama, from the top down.
I’m intrigued with the Pathfinder gods, but I hope they do more to tie them together. The Desna chapter was great, but she’s unambitious and childlike, a poor introduction to godly politics.
If they go the direction of the Forgotten Realm gods – like they were spat from a celestial casting call – I’ll be sad.
The archaeological bent of the Pathfinders and the Pathfinder Chronicles gives our friends here the perfect opportunity to do something like this.
You guys are working on this, right?
Are other Dms and players interested in this?
I'm interested.
I think they're fighting deadlines and the demand for more information than they squeeze out fast enough, and still not contradict themselves later.
(I say that because I've been a pretty demanding fan, and I get the sense they're really dancing as fast as they can)
I'm very interested in a new setting's mythology but, frankly, I think developers drop the ball. I don't know if it's ingrained D&D mentality or that gods are usually farmed out individually for development, but they’re fragmentary. Most gamers simply define divinity in a framework of domain portfolios, like trading cards, and overlook why pantheons are so interesting: they’re patterned after families – dysfunctional families. Warring brothers, estranged sisters, jilted spouses, dueling lovers, fallen children, it’s these relationships that give mythology its punch and help delineate mankind’s ideologies. A good pantheon is a soap opera. I know there’s a lot to be said for the assimilation and re-branding of regional gods as cultures mix, but this game should be a platform for drama, from the top down.
I’m intrigued with the Pathfinder gods, but I hope they do more to tie them together. The Desna chapter was great, but she’s unambitious and childlike, a poor introduction to godly politics.
If they go the direction of the Forgotten Realm gods – like they were spat from a celestial casting call – I’ll be sad.
I see what you're saying from a cautionary point of view, as in 'please consider this, don't do that'.. I don't know if this development team has actually dropped the ball yet in regards to what you're saying.
Desna has been depicted as an 'outsider', or specifically an 'alien god' to Golarion. I guess she's already outside of this Greek style family pantheon that you're hoping for..
I've mixed feelings Selk. I see where you're coming from, but I'm undecided if whether they don't go in the classic Pantheon paradigm, whether that is actually a failure. Giving it some more thought.
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I see what you're saying from a cautionary point of view, as in 'please consider this, don't do that'.. I don't know if this development team has actually dropped the ball yet in regards to what you're saying.
Desna has been depicted as an 'outsider', or specifically an 'alien god' to Golarion. I guess she's already outside of this Greek style family pantheon that you're hoping for..
I've mixed feelings Selk. I see where you're coming from, but I'm undecided if...
It doesn't necessarily need to be Greek style. Norse, Hindu, Japanese, Mayan, Egyptian - any style is fine with me as long as the gods actually have relationships that can be parlayed into archetype and myth. I'm just not a fan of the 'pet god' treatment, where developers just bring their own god to the table and only bother to loosely associate them with other gods. Some gods need to be married, some need to be lovers and some need to be children of other gods. Without the basics they're just epic level placeholders.
Contributor
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I think we're not going to get into creation myths too much. Frankly, our creative energies are better spent dealing with current events in the world. Maybe once we have as much information as the Forgotten Realms we'll start delving into the beginnings. But for now, it's almost all about the here-and-now.
I think it would be interesting to see a pantheon based around themes like: The burning god (god of wrath, light, suffering, etc.), the drowned god (god of oceans, secrets, etc.), the hidden god, and so on; basically a collection of epithets that are universally applied across the nations and races, but each nation/race has their own names for each god as well.
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What? I thought you had an army of writers and an unlimited budget.
Hmm.
Creation myths 'on the fly' can always be fun though. Just ask some basic questions about nature and use religion as the vessel of explanation.
Why is the sky blue?
Why does the sky change color at sunset?
Why do rivers flow into the sea and not the other way?
What are stars?
Why do we have ten fingers?
Why are there half elves and half orcs but no half dwarves or half halflings?
Why do flowers smell good?
We, posters with time to kill, could create a whole body of myth answering childlike questions. :)
Why are there half elves and half orcs but no half dwarves or half halflings?
I dont know about halflings, but dwarves are too proud to get funky with other races (even when they're drunk), and they're too ugly for other races to get funky with them (heck even the female dwarves have whiskers...gross).
I agree with the sentiments of the thread. Having a world with gods and clerics that channel them, I envision gods that can't help BUT to constantly interfere: causing wars, naming curses and blessings, sowing their seed in the ladies and having their way with the boys, bringing mountains low and raising valleys high, throwing down plagues with a bat of their eyes, and in general not playing fair. If someone says they're better at doing something than a particular god, they actually get a visit and a challenge, coming to regret such bragging.
My initial reaction is good regarding the Golarion Pantheon. It's smaller and feels more unified. By unified, I mean that it's not a hodgepodge of various actual historical mythologies thrown in the pot without actually connecting the dots (How would Osiris play chess with Odin? Is there an annual Lawful Good gods convention for a week of Soma in the Hindu plane, do they all don their togas when going to Mt. Olympus? Do they interact at all??). They seem to all have a place, interact with each other, and have formed an association with each other ranging from ally to foe.
As the gods, etc. have become elaborated, I enjoy the elements in particular that come out of the old fertile crescent that have come to inspire the stories of H.P. Lovecraft and, hence, the Necronomicon. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, and Pazuzu being included delights me. In that vein, I wonder if the essential "big picure" of all of these gods mean that they are all essentally a part of everyday life: the calandar includes months named after evil gods; mothers fear the encroachment of Lamashtu's interference, but does that mean they actually invoke the aid of Pazuzu even though the mother is usually good but Pazuzu is also "evil?" Are all of the gods essentially given their due regardless of the alignment of people? If a god is neglected and offerings not given, how much of a reprisal do people need to worry about? For example, if a ruler forgets about Desna, will ruin come to the kingdom? If a mother doesn't invoke Pazuzu, will Lamashtu succeed in slaying her child?
If the gods otherwise engage in a laissez faire attitude, where clerics are the only means of having a glimmer of awarness of their existence, I would imagine devotion and/or awe of such beings to be rather insignificant. Places of worship would be rare, and clerics found irkesome by most people as most try to ignore or placate them just to keep them sedated.
I have seen evidence of those child-like questions and mythical stories mentioned, and I have savored every morsel. There's the creation story of the Lamia Matriarchs, there's the story of why animals no longer remain immediately friendly with humans, there's the story of star metal/ adamantite, and there's the story of how the ancient ruins must have been built by giants (although in this case, "were" built by/and or for giants). It is anguishing to have to wait for small bits here and there, but, I understand that it's the particular process the staff for Pathfinder is using to get the AP's out first and then flesh out the world first. A kind of generating interest first via en media res rather than putting out a tome first that feels stale and stuffy and nothing published to use that tome with.
As long as halflings don't walk around shoeless with hairy feet, smoking longbottom leaf and not wanting to be bothered by "adventures," I'm confident that the staff will continue to dazzle and amaze with their take on traditional D&D elements.
Creative Director
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The majority of the deities in Golarion are kidnapped from my homebrew world, which has the benefit of 25 or so years of development. There's CERTAINLY a lot of mythology there. And since a fair number of the deities of Golarion are from there, a fair amount of that mythology will be creeping in as well. The gazetteer isn't the place to get into all of that, unfortunately. For now, the deity articles we'll be running in Pathfinder twice per adventure path will be where you go for the big and detailed mythology stuff.
We chose Desna as the first one for several reasons, but one of those was that she was kind of self-contained and didn't have a lot of interwoven relationships with other deities. Still... she's got some, between her and Lamashtu, her and Ghlaunder, and a few others. The point of that article was to present Desna in detail, not to present any overarching mythology or the like.
All that said... we're limited by what information we can present about Golarion by the simple logistics of how much we can produce. It'll take us a long time—years, I suspect. But we'll get there eventually!
I understand that it's the particular process the staff for Pathfinder is using to get the AP's out first and then flesh out the world first. A kind of generating interest first via en media res rather than putting out a tome first that feels stale and stuffy and nothing published to use that tome with.
And that style works for me. I found Forgotten Realms too front loaded.
Interestingly enough I found ancient Greyhawk (late 70's and early 80's) too back loaded. I didn't know what to do with the Gazeteer, and the modules didn't connect any dots. (Of course I was a teen and on a limited budget)
Pathfinder as it is, is doing a good mix that works for my taste.
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It's important to remember that the forgotten Realms have well over 20+ YEARS of development time worked into them.
Getting into the realms now means having to absorb a lot of that, leading to the 'front loaded' problem, but for people who've been playing in the realms for a long time, it's less of an issue.
Give the Paizo guys some time - Golarion'll get there.
It's important to remember that the forgotten Realms have well over 20+ YEARS of development time worked into them.
Getting into the realms now means having to absorb a lot of that, leading to the 'front loaded' problem, but for people who've been playing in the realms for a long time, it's less of an issue.
Give the Paizo guys some time - Golarion'll get there.
I don't disagree with you at all Sean, except I found that to be true even when Forgotten Realms was new. If you were replying to me, I think you misunderstood.
But I've seen that a lot in the evolution of role-playing. Old Runequest, by Chaosium, prior to Stormbringer and Call of Cthulthu was good for that. Specifically Greg Stafford introduced a global environment and grand sweeping struggles of the gods and tons of creation myths, all based on his studies of anthropology and Joseph Campbell and very little to actually base any practical gaming on (such as it was, it was called "Apple Lane").
Old Greyhawk, as I recall, gave you big colored hex maps and a booklet of population demographics. Lol. Okay, maybe a little bit more.
Forgotten Realms was better still, the best that had been up until that time by my recollection, but it was still fairly front loaded.
No Sean, I'm not rushing Paizo. There's a few bits and pieces I'd like to see sooner or later, but I'm cool. I get what need from the forum comments.
I always liked the adage that the journey was it's own reward, that climbing the mountain just as fun, that something something about the silver shaft was as pleasurable, etc.
All that said... we're limited by what information we can present about Golarion by the simple logistics of how much we can produce. It'll take us a long time—years, I suspect. But we'll get there eventually!
Great! Of course I'm not asking for someone to do this now, and I sure don't have any problem doing it myself if Paizo isn't planning to. I'm sure some groups just don't care about this, so sketching the big picture is sure to fall way back in priorities.
In the meantime I'll do what I've always done and pillage my Comp Lit notes and Joseph Campbell for big picture storyline.
EDIT: I've just got to add that my reason for posting this is as follows. EVERYONE wants to have some idea of where it all came from and why, be it God, Illuvatar, a giant turtle, the big bang and evolution, or that the world fell out of a ham sandwich. Characters involved in the study of religion or magic would all, as scientists and theologians do today, have a cosmological model to answer questions about this stuff. Therefore it behooves me as a DM to inform my players of such models, and I often provide variations to different kinds of characters so they have something to quarrel about around the campfire..