Another thread got me thinking about this.
Are there any MALE homosexual/bi-sexual protagonists in fantasy literature? I'm sure there has to be a female bi-sexual out there. Female bi sexuality in fantasy (or any genre) wouldn't surprise me all that much (what ever pleases that 18-34 year old male demographic).
Has there been any other gaming product that presented a homosexual character in a serious way before Pazio did with Burnt Offerings?
Also I was wondering if any players out there have ever played a Homo/Bi sexual PC in a game. And if so how were you received by the other gamers?
The Herald-Mage series by Mercedes Lackey.
Yeah, Cutter in Iron Council is gay and I think he also implies that one of the characters in Perdido Street Station is a lesbian, but not through any "catering to the heterosexual male 18-40 crowd" way.
Not fantasy, but I know Clive Barker wrote a horror novel about a gay protagonist that a lot of horror enthusiasts ridiculed him for.
Are there any MALE homosexual/bi-sexual protagonists in fantasy literature? I'm sure there has to be a female bi-sexual out there.
I suspect that would depend on your definition of literature. I am guessing you mean traditional print, rather than manga, for example?
If you step outside of traditional print, it isn't difficult to find. But in traditional print, I don't have a clue.
Also I was wondering if any players out there have ever played a Homo/Bi sexual PC in a game. And if so how were you received by the other gamers?
My group, our D&D DM has extra attributes. One of them is Preference. You roll a D10: 1-7 "straight," 8-9 "bi," 10 "gay."
Me, I'm not too thrilled about it. Not so much because it is there... But because I don't have the foggiest about how I should even try to play a bi, or gay character. Sure, there is an argument for "like a straight character..." But if I were to do that, why even roll the stat?
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Has there been any other gaming product that presented a homosexual character in a serious way before Pazio did with Burnt Offerings?
Also I was wondering if any players out there have ever played a Homo/Bi sexual PC in a game. And if so how were you received by the other gamers?
Ptolus has a gay character in it that is portrayed fairly well. White Wolf has had a number of characters with varying levels of sexual preferences.
I didn't realize Burnt Offerings had a gay character. I haven't had a chance to really read it over yet. If it does not spoil anything for anyone else, which character is homosexual?
I have had some players create sexually undecided characters and one player decided her character was pretty much bisexual. In my game it goes over well enough but my group is probably slightly unique. I am the GM and I happen to be gay.
Which leads me to a great big "thank you" to Paizo. Whether hero or villain, man or woman, homosexual and bisexual characters get the short shrift in most RPG material. There is a larger portion of gay, lesbian and bisexual players out there people might realize. It would be nice to see just a few more NPCs that represent this portion of the RPG playing population.
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Lythande, from the Thieves' World anthologies and other short stories, is a female who makes a unique sacrifice to gain magical power. She sacrifices her gender, sort of ...
Her "secret" (think phylactery) is that she must forever disguise herself as a male. While there is no overt explanation of her sexuality, she laments on several occassions she can't express her love for some of the female characters that she encounters as her true self. In one tale, she must use glamour and a false doppleganger to complete a sex act as "male," in order to break a spell of compulsion on the other female.
The stories sometimes have tragic-twinged "Twelfth Night" quality about them (sans the comedy). None of the stories are written to titillate, however. And considering the era, late 1970s-early 1980s, were fairly provacative in that as fantasy they explored gender roles.
It was was an analog for closeted homosexuals, I think. Lythane, as a cost of having magic, can't ever be open about her true self. That part must remain hidden and secret, so she could continue to move freely as an adventurer in her world.
Two words: Ann Rice. Is anyone in her books NOT a homosexual?
It's not literature, but I vaguely remember Erik Mona introducing a gay character in the LG Journal a couple years back. I think he was a prince, but I can't for the life of me remember of where.
Anyway, peoples of other persuasion have been in Paizo's publishings for years. As far as I can tell, it's always been in the manner of "Here is this protagonist. Oh, and he also happens to be gay." Or "here's this antagonist. Oh, She also happens to be a lesbian." Makes it easy to ignore if the group is uncomfortable with that kind of material. As far as I can tell, that's about as respectful handling of the material any company can do.
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Anyway, peoples of other persuasion have been in Paizo's publishings for years. As far as I can tell, it's always been in the manner of "Here is this protagonist. Oh, and he also happens to be gay." Or "here's this antagonist. Oh, She also happens to be a lesbian." Makes it easy to ignore if the group is uncomfortable with that kind of material. As far as I can tell, that's about as respectful handling of the material any company can do.
I can agree here. I don't think I want a big label that says GAY CHARACTER HERE and then have the plot intimately tied to that fact. I think its nice when the situation is handled very matter of factly, like any heterosexual character would be. No need to make a big deal out of it. But it is nice that such a state is the "norm" at Paizo.
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I can agree here. I don't think I want a big label that says GAY CHARACTER HERE and then have the plot intimately tied to that fact. I think its nice when the situation is handled very matter of factly, like any heterosexual character would be. No need to make a big deal out of it. But it is nice that such a state is the "norm" at Paizo.
Ditto.
I'm on a Yahoo! Group for gay gamers, and there was some discussion recently of a D&D RPGA scenario for Xen'Drik Expeditions (CSH-6 "What Rough Beast") that offended some gay gamers with one stereotypically over the top gay character. From the original email:
An NPC in the scenario is a gay pirate named "Looish". At first, I thought it was coool to have a gay character in RPGA (it's very rare), but it ended up as the same old tired and insulting stereotype. The NPC has a big, pink ship and toy dog named "Sparkles" (complete with pink bowtie). The pirate's catch phrase (as written on his npc sheet which I saw) was "What a rough beast, I like 'em rough".
So yes, it's nice to see gay characters (whether villains, heroes, or just plain old NPCs) who are actual people, rather than comic-relief cardboard cutouts.
Two words: Ann Rice. Is anyone in her books NOT a homosexual?Jesus?
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
Damn. You beat me to it.
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An NPC in the scenario is a gay pirate named "Looish". At first, I thought it was coool to have a gay character in RPGA (it's very rare), but it ended up as the same old tired and insulting stereotype. The NPC has a big, pink ship and toy dog named "Sparkles" (complete with pink bowtie). The pirate's catch phrase (as written on his npc sheet which I saw) was "What a rough beast, I like 'em rough".
...
<stunned silence>
...
Okay, it took me a second to completely process that. Wow. I used to play a number of RPGA events and I dropped out because of boredom. I am happy I missed this.
I remember one in a Tanith Lee or CJ Cherryh (?) book from the 80s. I won't be able to search my library until Tuesday or Wednesday night.
I hope I can find it.
I've talked about another RPGA scenario at <http://archlords.livejournal.com/2007/07/16/>.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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...<stunned silence>
...
Okay, it took me a second to completely process that. Wow. I used to play a number of RPGA events and I dropped out because of boredom. I am happy I missed this.
I'd like to beat whomever came up with that. I've played bi characters, more often female than male (first and last bi-male character I played died when the campaign did).
One of my friends has a 'damaged transponder' he's hit on by men all the time, we've no idea why he shows up on the gsydar. I've made a point to not hit on any of his characters in game to avoid spoiling his fun.
Two words: Ann Rice. Is anyone in her books NOT a homosexual?Jesus?
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
I don't get it--probably because I got tired of her writing style halfway through the first book. Is there a character named Jesus in some of them? Or is this in reference to the "gays are against God" tripe in the news? Or a sly reference to Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene in Dan Brown?
I was glad to see so many well fleshed-out NPC's, including gay characters. Definitely a bright spot in the book.
I played a Gold Dwarf Bard as fairly stereotypical gay, but he was closeted (and in his twin brother's body) for most of the one-shot game.
I also had the father of the party's half-orc barbarian end up being gay (and a bard, and a king)... Orc princes can give into peer pressure too you know.
As for Fantasy literatures, I'm blank at the moment. I can only think of McCaffrey's Pern (and The Powers That Be series), and Cherryh's Cyteen. Both of those are SciFi though.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't get it--probably because I got tired of her writing style halfway through the first book. Is there a character named Jesus in some of them? Or is this in reference to the "gays are against God" tripe in the news? Or a sly reference to Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene in Dan Brown?Two words: Ann Rice. Is anyone in her books NOT a homosexual?Jesus?
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
Anne rice wrote a book about jesus christ before he knew he was the son of god. She also had lestat drink from him while he was on the cross in a difft book.
I was trying to make the joke that jesus was in her books and was not gay. Mostly being silly - not trying to get into the magdeline thing.
I can't really think of any gay fantasy characters other than those already mentioned, but you can definitely expect to find them cropping up in our products from time to time. (I mean, come on, we're based in Seattle... half the people here under thirty are queer*, and the other half try to dress like it.)
Also, if you haven't already checked it out, gaygamer.net has a hilarious list of the top 10 gayest RPG characters of all time. The complete list requires a bit of searching, but here's a link to the winners.
*which I use to mean bi/gay/questioning/trans/whatever.
the Rose of the Prophet series by Weis and Hickman had a gay protagonist.
In the Shackled City campaign, I thought it was clearly implied that Adimarchus and Athux had a gay relationship. When I ran the STAP, I expanded this theme somewhat and even had Athux join the party in the last chapter, professing that he loved Adimarchus and repented his betrayal (of course in the end Athux double-crossed the PCs and grabbed rulership of Occipitus for himself, but he is Chaotic Evil after all!)
My group has two gay players (including me), sometimes our characters are gay and sometimes not. Most of the time it really doesn't come up, our games are more about killing monsters and not so much about sex or relationships. In games I've been in where I've seen flamboyantly gay PCs, this is sometimes met with derision or annoyance, sometimes with lots of ribbing, and sometimes with delight (of course, I've seen the same reactions to gnome PCs).
I was really happy to see some gay NPCs in the Sandpoint background, portrayed in a positive way and widely accepted by the community. In general, Sandpoint is portrayed as being pretty liberal, which is cool.
Vamros Harg, the halfling magistrate of Falcon's Hollow is gay. He plays no real role per se in Crown of the Kobold King, or Carnival of Tears really, but he might someday.
My group has two gay players (including me), sometimes our characters are gay and sometimes not. Most of the time it really doesn't come up, our games are more about killing monsters and not so much about sex or relationships. In games I've been in where I've seen flamboyantly gay PCs, this is sometimes met with derision or annoyance, sometimes with lots of ribbing, and sometimes with delight (of course, I've seen the same reactions to gnome PCs).
I played in a fantastic Shadowrun game once where my character, this rough and tumble cop, ended up going gay over another PC (a suave FBI agent). It was an awesome role-playing aspect of the game that developed really slowly.
Also, if you haven't already checked it out, gaygamer.net has a hilarious list of the top 10 gayest RPG characters of all time. The complete list requires a bit of searching, but here's a link to the winners.
Awesome link.
Can I just say how hilarious I find it that people have drawn the comparison between gay PCs and gnome PCs, in terms of group reactions? :)
P.S: And you can all rest easy because, unlike gnomes, I'm pretty sure there WILL be gays in 4th Edition. Probably.
Vamros Harg, the halfling magistrate of Falcon's Hollow is gay. He plays no real role per se in Crown of the Kobold King, or Carnival of Tears really, but he might someday.
I'm not sure Vamros will appreciate being outted like that. Don't you think you should leave that up to him? Did you talk to him about this before making this revelation public. I mean, he's said nothing to me about any of this. Although last time I saw him, he did compliment me on the shirt I was wearing. All that means is that he has excellent fashion sense, is all.
And what does Gavel think of all this? I mean, everyone knows that Harg is firmly in Gavel's pocket but it is rarely uttered in public by those who value their lives.
You'd better watch your back, Nic, or Gavel will getcha, you gossip monger!
:)
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Contributor
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A couple of really minor characters I can think of...
In A Song for Arbonne, a minor character, who is the husband of a major character, is gay. They are nobles married for political reasons, with an understanding in their relationship. This is an interesting one because the portrayal of homosexuality and particularly certain characters' views of homosexuality early in the book can make enlightened folks cringe, but it becomes clear that this is not G G Kay's view.
In Harry Tutledove's "Misplaced Legion" series, two of the characters are gay, and their relationship forces the main character to reconsider his views on homosexuality.
I've talked about another RPGA scenario at <http://archlords.livejournal.com/2007/07/16/>.Interesting. That does remind me. One of the deities in Faiths and Pantheons (I'm thinking Sune) is mentioned as taking a male and female lover during the Avatar thing.
Liira actually, and that was part of the entry specifically written by Erik Mona, if I recall correctly. Although I would not doubt that Sune has had female lovers.
I was trying to make the joke that jesus was in her books and was not gay. Mostly being silly - not trying to get into the magdeline thing.
We'll let it lie, then. I thought maybe you were being exceptionally sly, in a popular fiction sort of way.
the Rose of the Prophet series by Weis and Hickman had a gay protagonist.
If you're talking about Mathew, IIRC, he wasn't gay, he just looked like a girl.
Robert Adams' "Horseclans" series of fantasy novels were filled with homosexuals. He revelled in portraying the Greek invaders of post nuclear war America as the worst stereotypes, with the Horseclans being paragons of virtue and heterosexual values countering the obvious 'depravity' of the invaders.
He did have a homosexual undying lord protagonist who became an ally of his main character, Milo Morai and Bili the Axe, after his lands were conquered by the neo-Nomad American tribes who could communicate with saber tooth tigers telepathically and were brothers to horse, cat and mutated wolverines.
I enjoyed the books a lot when I was a teenager, but even back then I took it all in context...they're very entertaining in a brutal, pulpy way. GURPS even did a Horseclans supplement, which I have and is pretty good.
Robert Adams excels at describing medieval military tactics and the absolute horror of getting shot with arrows, cut with swords, brained by maces and his battle descriptions were very evocative....one of the main strengths of his writings if you care to look beyond his tiresome gay bashing.
In Harry Tutledove's "Misplaced Legion" series, two of the characters are gay, and their relationship forces the main character to reconsider his views on homosexuality.
That's common in Turtledove's writing. I've found it in the "Island in the Sea of Time" series as well. I loved Turtledove's writing until he plagiarized battle scenes from the movie "Zulu" in that aforementioned series and now I won't read another book of his.
Thanks for all the info everyone. I will have to pick up a few of the books mentioned above.
Also I was wondering if any players out there have ever played a Homo/Bi sexual PC in a game. And if so how were you received by the other gamers?
Yes I've had a few Gay characters show up (since I DM they tend to be NPC's).
In a werewolf game I ran, I had a Gay 'Get of Fenris' show up (first gay NPC I ever had show up). All my players where straight, It went fine, I came out not long after that.
Made the NPC Paladin in EtCR Lesbian, and my version of Graz'zt, likes the ladies, but if there is a really hot guy, WELL, he's pretty open minded.
Director of Narrative
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While not 100% on topic, I saw this article recently and thought it had some relevance.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Also I was wondering if any players out there have ever played a Homo/Bi sexual PC in a game. And if so how were you received by the other gamers?Made the NPC Paladin in EtCR Lesbian, and my version of Graz'zt, likes the ladies, but if there is a really hot guy, WELL, he's pretty open minded.
I wonder how many people have 'tested the waters' with characters.
And I always just assumed that about Graz/zt.
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I had a female player in a LOtR campaign, I GM'd, who played Legolas's lover, and who was banished from the Woodland Kingdom because it became a little too well known about thier daliances. It was quite funny especially when she caught up to the characters from the book and found out Legolas was hanging out with a dwarf.
Not my cup of tea but she did make it quite enjoyable for the group.
While not 100% on topic, I saw this article recently and thought it had some relevance.
Great link, thanks Daigle.
the Rose of the Prophet series by Weis and Hickman had a gay protagonist.If you're talking about Mathew, IIRC, he wasn't gay, he just looked like a girl.
It's clear in the series that Mathew is in love with Khardan. Frankly, it's not even particularly subtle.
- Ashavan
the Rose of the Prophet series by Weis and Hickman had a gay protagonist.If you're talking about Mathew, IIRC, he wasn't gay, he just looked like a girl.It's clear in the series that Mathew is in love with Khardan. Frankly, it's not even particularly subtle.
- Ashavan
Agreed. The very first page he's introduced touches upon his blooming romance with another guy. Khardan even says he isn't ashamed to know that a man is in love with him at the end of the novel.
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While not 100% on topic, I saw this article recently and thought it had some relevance.
Good link.
There is an interesting book...
http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Unions-Premodern-Europe-Boswell/dp/067975164 5
..that concerns the subject of same sex unions in Medieval Europe.
I would imagine that demons in the D&D game would do pretty much anything they could get their claws on regardless or sex, race, etc.... That doesn't make them gay, but I think a lot of demons would proposition characters of any gender, which could make for interesting role playing options in the Savage Tide campaign.
At the other end of the spectrum- Devils would probably be much more stict and rigid about such matters, and homosexuality would likely be condemned and punishable by torture and death.