So I've been thinking about how the way the Ninja are portrayed historically has changed over my life time. When I was a kid there was crap like the American Ninja movies. Then people started writing serious histories of the Ninja and guys like Masaaki Hatsumi in Japan popped up claiming to be masters of Ninjutsu. There were heaps of books released and the general idea became that Ninja clans existed as outcasts in the Japanese feudal system, and hired themselves out as assassins, terrorists etc to lords because they were willing to fight dirty, unlike the Samurai.
Now the general opinion among miltary historians seems to be that these clans didn't exist at all, and that in fact Ninja as people generally think of them didn't exist. The Samurai were no more honourable than any military class, ie, they fought with every weapon available to them, including espionage, terror and ambush. Some families like the Yagyu codified these techniques into "ninjutsu", but it was not like there were Ninja and Samurai operating independantly. The Ninja were Samurai. "Ninjutsu" was just the medieval Japanese equivalent of modern special forces training. Some Samurai families taught it, others specialized in things like horsemanship or were famous duellists or strategists.
It's really hard to know the truth seeing as the very subject is murky. One thing I DO know is that no Ninja-To has ever been found that dates from before the 20th century. Ninja, if they did exist, used guns, bows, katana and wakizashi just like any other Japanese warrior. The straight-bladed Ninja sword was invented by Hollywood, so how much else was?
Anyone have any knowledge/opinion (crazy or otherwise) about the real Ninja? I reckon it's pretty unlikely that I'm the only gamer who has ever looked into the history of the Ninja.
PS. I fully recognize that a certain number of smart-arsed comments about pirates etc. is an inherent danger of a thread like this, so I'd just like to say... knock yourselves out :)
The Discovery channel's Mythbusters looked at a few myths surrounding the mighty ninjas last weekend... I started to watch it, but then Discovery Channel got 'technical difficulties', so I missed most of the show. It will pass again as a rerun this Wednesday (in Canada). Cool stuff...
Ultradan
My surprise at learning this: nil.
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There is a certain difficulty in divining the truth of any organization which deliberatly cultivated lies and myths about its own existense and/or capabilities.
The fact that Ninja existed is indesputible, their origins and capabilities are debateable.
Most of their art (mystique may be a better word) came from being trained to the outer limits of human capability, and doing so for years. Not to mention years (possibly hundreds of years) of innovation and development of techniques for doing the impossible.
Legends say they could walk through walls because they could get into places with "impenetrable walls". Of course this may have been accomplished by bribing a guard, circumventing the wall (sewer crawl), or even having a brother with a ladder.
As for the ninja-to mytho-history... they probably had a subset of swords they used. I would bet they looked more like waki's then straight blades, but lacked the traditional folding and artistry. The main reason being that formal blades (kats and wakis) were valuable, rare, and generally traceable. If you had to drop one during a 'shadowrun' (tm) it would be bad...
I saw a history program which said as much; ninjas were just samurai with camo instead of armor. It's hard to know exactly how prevalent 'ninjaism' was because when a feudal lord ordered his samurai to take off their armor and put on their camo, the lord would never actually record it as so in his dear diary. He would just write something like 'My samurai defeated my rival, lord Hiroshige today'.
Whatever the historians say, it is fun to play games that involve thieve's guilds and ninja clans.
Well, I thought I read somewhere that they were peasants who used unconvential methods to fight against the ruling class, Samurai, etc. I believe they were effective because they were discrete and unpredictable. They used whatever weapons were at hand. And I suspect they could "walk through walls" because they were servants (or friends of servants) who were already on the inside. The "uniform" came from theatre back in the day.
My understanding (and please take this with a grain of salt) is that the black uniform associated with Ninjas was originally worn by people who would come on stage during plays to remove furniture and pieces of the set while actors were still on stage. I guess they didn't have it set up with a curtain that falls, so these guys would come on stage while the actors were still there and fans of theatre became accustomed to just tuning out the guys in black. So it was as if they were "invisible." Subsequently, when the need arose to depict a Ninja--someone who could sneak up on you invisibly--they chose to have the Ninjas wear the black uniform of the set hands. Which makes sense--if you're a member of a "secret" clan or what have you, why would you ever have a uniform denoting membership? Anyway, I could be completely wrong, and there are probably folks around here who would be offended at such a perception (or even mention) of Japanese culture, but that's how I understand it.
For further "information" (and silliness) about Ninjas, I give you (those at work might want to turn down the volume) the following, um, "scholarly" web page on Ninjas:
http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm
Now the general opinion among miltary historians seems to be that these clans didn't exist at all, and that in fact Ninja as people generally think of them didn't exist.
That's what they want us to believe now that their secrets are penetrated. Maybe you are one of them!
Anyone have any knowledge/opinion (crazy or otherwise) about the real Ninja? I reckon it's pretty unlikely that I'm the only gamer who has ever looked into the history of the Ninja.
This is not meant to be a wise ass post. I just wonder if there is anyone around who has actually been to Japan, or perhaps lives in Japan right now and can shed some light on this topic... because this is the third or fourth thread I have seen on 'what is the history of Ninja' over the past few years.
The dollar value needed to carry out my idea may be above that which the average gamer can spend researching Ninja, but have you considered actually traveling to Japan and taking a look around?
Take like a two week vacation, fly into Tokyo and then take the Shinkansen (bullet train) around the country.
Then, meet the locals, hang out at coffee shops, play some games, and possibly question real Japanese historians - most learn some English in Japan so language should not stop you cold.
The best thing to do would be to visit some Martial Arts studios and ask where the historical Ninja cities and shrines are located (just like playing an adventure, gather clues) to get you on your way.
Plus, there will be many other tourists to talk to (think of them as NPCs).
Take lots of pictures, keep a journal, and post when you get back!
The best thing to do would be to visit some Martial Arts studios and ask where the historical Ninja cities and shrines are located (just like playing an adventure, gather clues) to get you on your way.
That would be a fun trip. But if the Japanese are as clueless about their own history as most Americans, you'd get more accurate information from Wikipedia (and that's just sad). Reminds me of my friend who lived near a reservation; he got to be friends with some of the residents, asked them how they learned their dances, etc.--oral tradition from great-grandparents? They replied, "Hollywood movies."
That's what they want us to believe now that their secrets are penetrated. Maybe you are one of them!
Do not listen to this man.
That would be a fun trip. But if the Japanese are as clueless about their own history as most Americans, you'd get more accurate information from Wikipedia (and that's just sad). Reminds me of my friend who lived near a reservation; he got to be friends with some of the residents, asked them how they learned their dances, etc.--oral tradition from great-grandparents? They replied, "Hollywood movies."That's partly why I asked the question. I have a book about ninja I got when I was a teenager, by the British historian Stephen Turnbull, written I think in the late 80s/early 90s. It has a chapter about a Ninja Theme Park in Iga province, and a supposed Ninja castle with sliding doors etc. The locals are very proud of their supposed Ninja heritage, but all the touristy stuff they sell is pretty inaccurate and the author says so.
Then he goes and gets a lot of his info about "the real Ninja" from Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, who is a martial artist who claims to be the descendant of a Ninja clan. I think at the time he was seen as being authentic, but now there have been aspersions cast on Hatsumi's credibility, as there are on everyone who claims to be a Ninja. It seems the only reason he had any in the first place is because he was the first Japanese (as opposed to American, French, etc) who claimed to be a Ninja. But now people are thinking just because he's Japanese doesn't mean he isn't a con man.
If anyone's seen the movie Bloodsport, Frank Dux is another guy from the 80s who claims to be a "real" Ninja. When questioned about his lack of evidence he just says "well, Ninja are secret." So you've pretty much got a bunch of wild myths kept alive by ordinary Japanese folk, a bunch of questionable martial artists who claim to come from a secret tradition, and a few genuine historians who have nothing to go on and so, like historians do, they've ended up saying "if there's no evidence then they weren't real."
Tensor, I'd love to go to Japan and research the Ninja. Anyone wanna help out?
*passes hat around*
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When a majority of the specific training was handed down orally, the individual schools had a very active interest in keeping their training methods secret, and individuals not chosen for initiation into all the grand "secrets" of a system had an interest in striking out on their own, just how much "reality" can be expected of any claims made about such things?
Add in the direct economic interest since the 19th century, and everything is as questionable as any other advertising campaign.
And then there is the Liberty Valance Factor.
If I had a nickel for every "ancient martial arts secret of" I have heard touted that turned out to be just another bit of self-promotion, I'd have enough money to fund research into a time machine so someone could go back and check firsthand if there were ever any real ninjas. (I'd be checking other stuff, but I'd let someone borrow it. If the ninjas let me of course. ;))
Back in the day, I saw a 'ninjutsu' fighter in an open martial arts tournament in Red Deer, Alberta. It didn't take long for his first opponent to rack up a few points against him and he never broke through the other guys guard.
I watched him and his people stretching a little later before the weapons displays and asked him what was up, and they explained that their techniques were too dangerous to use in the tournament.
I'm not a complete dick so I said nothing and sauntered away, but really, all of us in an open tournament, full contact or no, are prohibited from using our dangerous techniques.
That's my real run in with a 'ninja'. It was very disappointing.
You should have sneered at him so he would have flipped out and killed a village.
You should have sneered at him so he would have flipped out and killed a village.
what she said
So I've been thinking about how the way the Ninja are portrayed historically has changed over my life time. When I was a kid there was crap like the American Ninja movies. Then people started writing serious histories of the Ninja and guys like Masaaki Hatsumi in Japan popped up claiming to be masters of Ninjutsu. There were heaps of books released and the general idea became that Ninja clans existed as outcasts in the Japanese feudal system, and hired themselves out as assassins, terrorists etc to lords because they were willing to fight dirty, unlike the Samurai.
Now the general opinion among miltary historians seems to be that these clans didn't exist at all, and that in fact Ninja as people generally think of them didn't exist. The Samurai were no more honourable than any military class, ie, they fought with every weapon available to them, including espionage, terror and ambush. Some families like the Yagyu codified these techniques into "ninjutsu", but it was not like there were Ninja and Samurai operating independantly. The Ninja were Samurai. "Ninjutsu" was just the medieval Japanese equivalent of modern special forces training. Some Samurai families taught it, others specialized in things like horsemanship or were famous duellists or strategists.
It's really hard to know the truth seeing as the very subject is murky. One thing I DO know is that no Ninja-To has ever been found that dates from before the 20th century. Ninja, if they did exist, used guns, bows, katana and wakizashi just like any other Japanese warrior. The straight-bladed Ninja sword was invented by Hollywood, so how much else was?
Anyone have any knowledge/opinion (crazy or otherwise) about the real Ninja? I reckon it's pretty unlikely that I'm the only gamer who has ever looked into the history of the Ninja.
PS. I fully recognize that a certain number of smart-arsed comments about pirates etc. is an inherent danger of a thread like this, so I'd just like to say... knock yourselves out :)
Ah, the Ninja-to issue...
When it comes to swords, I am no expert, but I know a couple of things. Given japan's location and history, and the existence of tachi-style blades, a short, straight blade was probably somewhere in the works, but *possibly* the existence of a ninja to was simply a wakazashi created in this style with a lot of PR around it, OR a re appropriated(certainly not stolen! ;-) ) mongol weapon. Most ninja were, as you said, regular troops with a lot of special forces training, and a LOT of PR (others would say mystery) about them, so I would say the idea of the ninja to has it's origins more in widely and intentionally circulated "peasant" myth than hollywoodland.
BTW..I really need to get a ninja to...
Back in the day, I saw a 'ninjutsu' fighter in an open martial arts tournament in Red Deer, Alberta. It didn't take long for his first opponent to rack up a few points against him and he never broke through the other guys guard.
I watched him and his people stretching a little later before the weapons displays and asked him what was up, and they explained that their techniques were too dangerous to use in the tournament.
I'm not a complete dick so I said nothing and sauntered away, but really, all of us in an open tournament, full contact or no, are prohibited from using our dangerous techniques.
That's my real run in with a 'ninja'. It was very disappointing.
I met a few guys who practiced ninjutsu back in the day when I was looking for something to take up. They seemed similar to this guy, although I knew them a bit better on a personal level. EVERYTHING they did was in an attempt to confuse people about what it was they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy lost intentionally to 'protect himself and everyone else', as they said. No sarcasm intended, as the few ninjutsu techniques I've seen were meant to break arms and necks and do little else. If this special forces training as the original poster said, then I understand- to this day, noone knows for sure what my half-sister does for the air force, and I don't think anyone wants to know.
So I've been thinking about how the way the Ninja are portrayed historically has changed over my life time. When I was a kid there was crap like the American Ninja movies.
Hey! Don't knock the american ninja movies! One guy had a laser in his ring. Come on, a LASER! Ninjas have LASERS, right?
Bizarro am not sad at all to hear people not believe in ninja. Bizarro not get this letter from little girl who heart not broken by History channel meanies.
It am not reading thus:
"Dear Bizarro,
The History Channel tells me that there were no ninjas. If there aren't any ninjas, what about Snake Eyes, and Storm Shadow, and Zartan, and the Hand, and Electra, and all of those guys in the last Batman movie?
I don't know if I want to live in a world with no paid shadowy assassin clans wearing pajamas. Next someone will tell me there is no Santa Claus.
Love,
Virginia"
Bizarro not answer little Virginia this way:
"Yes Virginia, there are no ninjas. There am no ninjas every time you am beating up someone while wearing black pajamas, and there am no ninjas whenever you am dreaming of hiring assassin to off the head of a rival comic book company. So long as we am not dreaming of hiring martial arts killers in black pajamas with throwing stars to kill our enemies, ninjas am not living in the heart of every person dreaming of murderous intent."
Oh, and before Bizarro forget, Bizarro must post disclaimer that the majority of the ninjas not mentioned in Virginia's letter were not the property of the Fat Joey Comic Book Company or Hasbro, or both, or something not like that.
ninjas... no there aren't any ninjas... anymore... they were lurking in my threads... they should have known better... *smacks lips*
Tensor, I'd love to go to Japan and research the Ninja. Anyone wanna help out?
*passes hat around*
Me too! When do you want to go???
Who else is going? ( We need a Cleric ! )
That would be a fun trip. But if the Japanese are as clueless about their own history as most Americans, you'd get more accurate information from Wikipedia (and that's just sad). Reminds me of my friend who lived near a reservation; he got to be friends with some of the residents, asked them how they learned their dances, etc.--oral tradition from great-grandparents? They replied, "Hollywood movies."
Hmm.. interesting point. My opinion is that any country that is geographically about the size of California (one of our states) that has an economy that rivals our own (actually, I am not sure of the GNP figures but it seems like they do) probably has a good education system and a generally smart population.
I can't say anything about the average Japanese high school graduate versus the average American high school graduate, but it seems to be a good conclusion they would have a smaller standard deviation of ‘smarts’ than Americans based solely on the fact they have less people (a general rule of thumb in statistics is standard deviation goes as the square root of the number of data, N)
So, talking to a Japanese person picked at random, they would probably know more about Japanese history than a randomly picked American would know about American history.
My point being, I think it would be safe to walk around asking Japanese people if they know anything about the history of Ninja and getting a reliable/informed answer. I really don’t know if they would know about Cowboys & Indians or the Civil War, but that is not why we are going to Japan anyways.
We seek Ninja ! <-- Unnecessary YouTube link…
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I met a few guys who practiced ninjutsu back in the day when I was looking for something to take up. They seemed similar to this guy, although I knew them a bit better on a personal level. EVERYTHING they did was in an attempt to confuse people about what it was they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy lost intentionally to 'protect himself and everyone else', as they said. No sarcasm intended, as the few ninjutsu techniques I've seen were meant to break arms and necks and do little else. If this special forces training as the original poster said, then I understand- to this day, noone knows for sure what my half-sister does for the air force, and I don't think anyone wants to know.
As Kruelaid said, we are ALL prohibited from using our dangerous techniques.
Or, perhaps more accurately, we are all prohibited from doing more than sports point fighting.Every technique has its base in ending a fight. You do that by breaking something vital - arm, leg, neck, internal organ. You can work lesser variations of techniques which don't go so far, but unless you are doing Slap Fighting Fu, the origin of the techniques is always in something lethal.
So no, I don't buy that "protecting bystanders" shtick in the least.
So I've been thinking about how the way the Ninja are portrayed historically has changed over my life time. When I was a kid there was crap like the American Ninja movies.Hey! Don't knock the american ninja movies! One guy had a laser in his ring. Come on, a LASER! Ninjas have LASERS, right?
That was totally rad in American Ninja III when he got almost fatally shot and he ran into the jungle, where he meditated and then flexed his chest and the bullet popped out.
No one should post on this thread unless their post can also be written in Kanji. ;)
So what you really mean is that nobody should post on this thread unless they themselves can also write their posts in Kanji.
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So what you really mean is that nobody should post on this thread unless they themselves can also write their posts in Kanji.
No, they don't have to know Kanji or Japanese. But if the posts are not able to be written in Kanji then they will sound inauthentic and silly to any Japanese lurkers on these boards.
I met a few guys who practiced ninjutsu back in the day when I was looking for something to take up. They seemed similar to this guy, although I knew them a bit better on a personal level. EVERYTHING they did was in an attempt to confuse people about what it was they were doing. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy lost intentionally to 'protect himself and everyone else', as they said. No sarcasm intended, as the few ninjutsu techniques I've seen were meant to break arms and necks and do little else. If this special forces training as the original poster said, then I understand- to this day, noone knows for sure what my half-sister does for the air force, and I don't think anyone wants to know.As Kruelaid said, we are ALL prohibited from using our dangerous techniques.
Or, perhaps more accurately, we are all prohibited from doing more than sports point fighting.Every technique has its base in ending a fight. You do that by breaking something vital - arm, leg, neck, internal organ. You can work lesser variations of techniques which don't go so far, but unless you are doing Slap Fighting Fu, the origin of the techniques is always in something lethal.
So no, I don't buy that "protecting bystanders" shtick in the least.
Some styles really lean towards interdenominational(or whatever you'd like to call it) point fighting competition, others don't. Maybe "intentionally lost" wasn't the best choice of words, but then again neither is "protecting bystanders"- all competent practitioners take the safety of the person they are working with seriously and will walk away/dive/ignore if they don't think themselves capable of pulling their punches.
Ninjas do not currently and have not ever existed.
What you mean is that "Hollywood" Ninjas never existed. I am sure somewhere in Medieval Japan at least one guy put on black clothes and tried to assassinate somebody with a blow gun... hahaha!
Did you ever see the original movie "Roller Ball" with Janes Caan. I love that movie, especially the death-blows used by the Tokyo team.
Modern day Ninjas are probably really good at roller derby.
Ninjas do not currently and have not ever existed.What you mean is that "Hollywood" Ninjas never existed. I am sure somewhere in Medieval Japan at least one guy put on black clothes and tried to assassinate somebody with a blow gun... hahaha!
Did you ever see the original movie "Roller Ball" with Janes Caan. I love that movie, especially the death-blows used by the Tokyo team.
Modern day Ninjas are probably really good at roller derby.
Holy crap, ROLLERBALL! I've got to rent that. The original was the best, the update was damn disappointing.
Ninjas do not currently and have not ever existed.
Oh no, they did, but they were all killed by Pirates...
I don't know how accurate this article is, but at the very least it's an interresting read.
It sounded reasonable, but did anyone find any sources for that other than the Ashton translation? If there aren't any, it's kind of weak.
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Some styles really lean towards interdenominational(or whatever you'd like to call it) point fighting competition, others don't.
That's fine.
But then what they are practicing is not actual combat techniques, but point fighting techniques, and it is whatever combination of pretense and self-delusion they want to make it to suggest that they have the "secret techniques of ultimate death and destruction," they just can't show them in public.Maybe "intentionally lost" wasn't the best choice of words, but then again neither is "protecting bystanders"- all competent practitioners take the safety of the person they are working with seriously and will walk away/dive/ignore if they don't think themselves capable of pulling their punches.
No they won't.
All competent practioners and sportsmen will compete according to the rules, and within the limits of their training.If they have trained to pull punches, they will pull pull punches.
If they have trained to worry about the competence of their opponent, rather than letting his trainer worry if he is over his head, or letting the judges decide if the fight should be called early, then they will consider that as a factor.
I've seen many very competent fighters who simply have no respect for other people, whether by choice or training, and don't care if they pull their punches or not.
Conversely I have seen many very competent fighters who learned about respect as much as they learned about fighting, and who would never think of failing to control a technique against someone who shows them the same respect.
If you train martial arts, you train martial arts.
If you train martial sports, you train martial sports.
It is possible to train both.
It is critical to understand both, and the differences between them. Very few bother to learn what they do, let alone distinguish it from other practices.
Some styles really lean towards interdenominational(or whatever you'd like to call it) point fighting competition, others don't.That's fine.
But then what they are practicing is not actual combat techniques, but point fighting techniques, and it is whatever combination of pretense and self-delusion they want to make it to suggest that they have the "secret techniques of ultimate death and destruction," they just can't show them in public.
Well, that's a horse of another color isn't it? I'm sure the guy Kruelaid was talking to was being a jerk, but I know the guys I was talking to weren't- just because someone doesn't want to show off doesn't mean they are being rude.
Maybe "intentionally lost" wasn't the best choice of words, but then again neither is "protecting bystanders"- all competent practitioners take the safety of the person they are working with seriously and will walk away/dive/ignore if they don't think themselves capable of pulling their punches.
No they won't.
All competent practioners and sportsmen will compete according to the rules, and within the limits of their training.
If they have trained to pull punches, they will pull pull punches.
If they have trained to worry about the competence of their opponent, rather than letting his trainer worry if he is over his head, or letting the judges decide if the fight should be called early, then they will consider that as a factor.
I've seen many very competent fighters who simply have no respect for other people, whether by choice or training, and don't care if they pull their punches or not.
Conversely I have seen many very competent fighters who learned about respect as much as they learned about fighting, and who would never think of failing to control a technique against someone who shows them the same respect.If you train martial arts, you train martial arts.
If you train martial sports, you train martial sports.
It is possible to train both.
It is critical to understand both, and the differences between them. Very few bother to learn what they do, let alone distinguish it from other practices.
Okay, we're starting to get into permutations with would, should, and could. A competent practitioner SHOULD know their limits. Competing according to the rules is well and fine, but if one feels they cannot abide by them, it is their responsibility to bow out.
My opinion is that any country that is geographically about the size of California (one of our states)... a general rule of thumb in statistics is standard deviation goes as the square root of the number of data, N.
Beleive it or not, I can name all 50 states, and find them on a map (unlike Ms. South Carolina), mostly because I've lived in about 15% of them. I can also perform elementary statistics (although I often have to use a cheat sheet when I get into eigenvectors). Sigma is proportional to the square root of 1/N times the sum of squared differences, though, so a smaller population will often show a larger standard deviation... and I'm also painfully aware that many American teens believe that the U.S. was at war against the Russians during WWII.
By the way, I LOVED that YouTube video. Even my wife thought it was hilarious. Thanks!
Calm down fellas. No need go down these roads when we can't even meet, have a beer, and scrap. Or start a thread for talkin about the arts.
If you trained you know you can train. If you sparred you know you can spar. If you point fight you can point fight. If you fought for real, you know you can fight for real. Until you do it, it's all guesswork. I don't see any point in us (martial artists) coming in here and puffing up about the distinctions. We know who we are.
And, as the saying (cliche) goes: walk softly and carry a big stick.
The ninja dude wasn't really a jerk, he wasn't scary enough. In fact he was nervous, probably because I was standing in front of him, bald and ripped, but somewhat taped together because of dislocations, in heavy gauge white cotton with no logos, wearing a worn out 8 year old belt. I don't think he meant he couldn't use his techniques on me because they were too dangerous; I think he meant he couldn't use all his arm bars and eye clawing and sai to the throat moves.
The ninjitsu I saw there, and in a campus club a decade ago or more, was nothing more than karate mixed with a little jujitsu all done with an emphasis on repetition drills of stuff that is a little complex but really dangerous, like armlocking, breaking holds, gouging eyes and ripping balls off. It was good for self defense I suppose, but a little weak on fundamental skills, and fundamental skills to me are essential and must be drilled painfully and endlessly in order for them to come together when you really need them.
Personally, I think the ninjitsu thing was a spin some guys put on their teaching to attract some customers and make a few bucks. A lot of people don't have the patience for the rigorous and basic work done in a traditional karate dojo (like standing in horse stance rehearsing blocks for 60 minutes), and they like to think they are learning stuff that is truly lethal.
Beleive it or not, I can name all 50 states, and find them on a map (unlike Ms. South Carolina), mostly because I've lived in about 15% of them. I can also perform elementary statistics (although I often have to use a cheat sheet when I get into eigenvectors). Sigma is proportional to the square root of 1/N times the sum of squared differences, though, so a smaller population will often show a larger standard deviation... and I'm also painfully aware that many American teens believe that the U.S. was at war against the Russians during WWII.
By the way, I LOVED that YouTube video. Even my wife thought it was hilarious. Thanks!
Heh, I watched that video twice in a row because I thought is was so funny.
Btw, (not trying to be a bore) but the square root of 1/N is for the standard deviation of the Sample Mean ( X_bar ). I was speaking of the Population standard deviation, Sigma. Using the square root of N is only a rough, rule-of-thumb for estimating an unknown population std dev when you have nothing else to go on.
And, speaking of averages, I really do not know anything about either Population's Mu, and would not know how to measure it either. IQ tests simply do not work. Maybe SAT scores, but again I would not know how to normalize the cross-cultural differences.
I have heard quotes about Math scores and American students sucking at it, but I do not think that being good at math would imply you know about the History of Ninja!! So, that doesn't help either.
{ Btw, the square root of 1/N is how in the "Law of Large Numbers" the variance of X_bar around Mu approaches 0, because as N gets really large, then 1/sqrt(N) gets really small (or zero if 'really large' is infinite) and X_bar (sample) -> Mu (population). That is, the mean of the sample equals the mean of the population because, in essence, you are now using the entire population as your sample. }
I wonder if Ninja were utilized during WWII …
Btw, (not trying to be a bore) but the square root of 1/N is for the standard deviation of the Sample Mean ( X_bar ). I was speaking of the Population standard deviation, Sigma. Using the square root of N is only a rough, rule-of-thumb for estimating an unknown population std dev when you have nothing else to go on.
Tensor, you know some math! Excellent... and point taken on "s" vs. sigma; we're not likely to interview every person in Japan!
But in this case, pure statistics are somewhat misleading, as you pointed out. Think of it like this: if we interview 170,000 American kids, we'll get a big spread of possible knowledge about cowboys, for example, ranging anywhere from "huh?" to "I've seen 'em on TV" to "they're gay in that movie!" to "my great-grandfather used to ride herd in Wyoming Territory and I grew up listening to his stories of those days." There is no such thing as a "mean," of responses, though; only a "mode" (probably something along the lines of "I don't like those movies but my Dad does").
Interviewing 1,700 kids in Japan about ninjas, we have the same possible spread of information vs. misinformation vs. ignorance, but the odds of finding that one kid with useful information are a lot less. So I still think that our chances of getting good information this way are pretty slim.
Not to say that we shouldn't make that trip anyway, especially if we can write a grant and get some funding!
I'll bet you find at least a dozen of those 1700 ARE ninjas, and they go nuts and kill your ass.
I'll bet you find at least a dozen of those 1700 ARE ninjas, and they go nuts and kill your ass.
No chance. I live in Texas. Chuck Norris would appear out of nowhere and take care of them for me.
Chuck Norris rules. What a kick ass hairy bastard he is.
Chuck Norris rules. What a kick ass hairy bastard he is.
Man, talk about a career that will never die. There was a band that had a song honoring him and he appeared out of nowhere in the audience to give them a thumbs up. And don't get me started on the Chuck Norris jokes- they crack me up into next week.
Two words for you...Pi Rates!
What? Someone had to do it or Kahoolin would be dissapointed.
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Personally, I think the ninjitsu thing was a spin some guys put on their teaching to attract some customers and make a few bucks. A lot of people don't have the patience for the rigorous and basic work done in a traditional karate dojo (like standing in horse stance rehearsing blocks for 60 minutes), and they like to think they are learning stuff that is truly lethal.
I'm still agreeing with Kruelaid on this.
(Even if I use different training methods than standing in horse stance for 60 minutes. ;) )
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Personally, I think the ninjitsu thing was a spin some guys put on their teaching to attract some customers and make a few bucks. A lot of people don't have the patience for the rigorous and basic work done in a traditional karate dojo (like standing in horse stance rehearsing blocks for 60 minutes), and they like to think they are learning stuff that is truly lethal.
I'm still agreeing with Kruelaid on this.
(Even if I use different training methods than standing in horse stance for 60 minutes. ;) )
I think he's right, too. What the "ninja" guys fail to realize is that if you don't mind-numbingly practice the same things over and over until they're automatic, there's not much chance they'll effectively come into play when you need them. Just like you don't become Jimi Hendrix by learning some cool riffs; you have to actually put in the grueling hours of practice, too.
For every 10 Japanese people you talk to 9 will be direct decendants of famous samurai and 1 will be a ninja.