Hm. I don't have the book in front of me. Are you saying the wand is an illusion? I think a PC could cast detect magic on it, and then use spellcraft to see what it does - but if it's an illusion, he should get a saving throw to possibly realize that.
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Good question! I wondered the same thing too.
My first group of players side-stepped that issue by buying a local area map, taking the Lost Coast Road north out of Sandpoint, finding the Thistle River, and following it down to the coast. From there, they just followed the coastline until they got to Thistletop and the thickets, although I did sic some poison ivy, etc. on them en route. Now I'm wondering if I went too easy on them.
An amusing (and related) anecdote: the NPC elf with absolutely no nature-related skills (the rest of the party don't know that she's a starship traveller from off-world) suffered greatly from the poison ivy, causing her to complain out loud about dangerous plants on the surface. Which caused the paladin to Detect Evil on her because he suspected that she was a Drow. :)
My second group of players haven't reached that point yet, so the question above still stands.
I'm trying to run the campaign as written as much as possible. It's also my first campaign GMing.
My players will soon be heading to Thistletop...somehow. The text reads:
"...approaching by land is difficult since the tangles of Nettlewood are in the way. A DC 14 Survival check reveals a route through the woods. If the check exceeds this DC by 10, the PCs come across one of the several narrow goblin trails that eventually lead to area C1. Each attempted Survival check takes 1d4 hours of wandering in the woods..."
So...that seems to mean that they can fairly easily find a route through the woods but to find one of the trails takes a much harder DC 24. My guys' highest survival will be +5 by then, requiring a 19 to find a path.
Does that mean that unless they get a 24 they could potentially be wandering for days trying to find a route in? Have I read that correctly?
The phrasing is not clear to me either. Does a DC 14 check get you to C1? If not what does it get you? Is a DC 24 the only way to find C1? If not, what does a DC 24 check give you the DC 14 check doesn't? A DC 24 check is pretty hefty for characters that might be only 2nd level (according to the AE, the players get to 3rd level after starting to explore Thistletop.)
I had my players come across the remnants of the merchant caravan where Shadowmist came from - this gave them some additional material to work off in terms of trailing the goblins (lowered the DC because of the number of creatures and a large creature (the horse) being tracked.) I had thought there might be some wondering for my group but they got lucky on the first roll. Remember aid another can work here. Another option for getting help: a few folks in town know where Thistletop is (example Daviren Hosk - Goblin Squash Stables) - they probably don't want to go but if the pc's ask for directions or a crudely sketched map they should get a +2 or +4 to their checks (if you're feeling generous.)
I suggest something like the following: for each 1d3 hours of searching, the party makes a survival check - if they make DC 14, they avoid stinging nettles or goblinberry patches, if they fail random chance of poisonous vegetation as described. If they make a DC 24, they find a goblin trail that leads to C1. Feel free to lower the DC if you think the structure will produce too much frustration for your players. Or have them automatically succeed after X number of failures.
Speaking of wands, can PCs spellcraft a wand usage? I'm thinking of the Goblin Warchanter with the silent image wand in the throne room. A little more effective if the PC's don't know he cast an illusion. I ask because I believe spellcraft requires you to either see the somatic components or hear the verbal components, and a wand would presumably cut out both.
No, I don't believe you can use spellcraft to "identify a spell as it is being cast" when someone is using a wand. As you note, the spell isn't actually being cast - the wand is being activated with a single word.
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I'm trying to run the campaign as written as much as possible. It's also my first campaign GMing.
My players will soon be heading to Thistletop...somehow. The text reads:
"...approaching by land is difficult since the tangles of Nettlewood are in the way. A DC 14 Survival check reveals a route through the woods. If the check exceeds this DC by 10, the PCs come across one of the several narrow goblin trails that eventually lead to area C1. Each attempted Survival check takes 1d4 hours of wandering in the woods..."
So...that seems to mean that they can fairly easily find a route through the woods but to find one of the trails takes a much harder DC 24. My guys' highest survival will be +5 by then, requiring a 19 to find a path.
Does that mean that unless they get a 24 they could potentially be wandering for days trying to find a route in? Have I read that correctly?
I take that DC 14 Survival check as a specified value for the chance of Getting Lost. (Note that the standard chance to not get lost in a forest is a DC 16 Survival check, with a +2 bonus if you have at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (geography) or Knowledge (local) pertaining to the area.) If you beat the DC 14 check by 10, then you find a goblin trail - which means you can't get lost, and you travel at normal speed (as opposed to the half speed you'd be using with no trail).
So, even if you never get 24 or more on your Survival checks, you'll still find your way to Thistletop, with the time taken dependent on whether you get lost (ie fail to beat a DC 14 check). As it's only about 1 mile through the wood to Thistletop, it shouldn't take more than one hour to get there, even moving at half speed - so only a single Survival check should be necessary, unless you get lost.
Now for something completely different...
Why does it take NualiA so long I get past the coin door? Lyrie has detect secret doors in her spellbook which can show you the opening mechanism in round three. Shouldn't she be able to just memoriZe that a bunch of times and hen find the secret door with ease the next day?
How do other peoples PCs end up finding the coin slots?
Thanks in advance.
HaHaHaHaHa.... Never noticed that before. Even without that logical gaffe, there are several other problems with that secret door - just how long are we to assume Nualia has had access to the second level? Several days at least, right? Nualia doesn't even need Lyrie - she could use Owl's Wisdom and Guidance to get her own perception checks up to +8. Even if you wouldn't let her Take 20 while using guidance, simply searching over and over again should be successful - it's not like it's a mystery where she should be searching - the big stack of coins is kind of a clue. And Lyrie could use Aid Another as an option. Or, even more simply, she could have Tsuto and his +11 perception Take 20 at the door before letting him go traipsing off to Sandpoint, gettin' hisself killed and all. Which is in a way the answer to the question about my pc's: bard +9 perception, Take 20, Voila! Secret Door found.
Simply put, it's pretty implausible for Nualia and her crew have not to have found the secret door if they've been at Thistletop for longer than 1 or 2 days. Did I change it for my campaign? No, I just played it as is. My pc's didn't really have any way of knowing how long Nualia had been there and the topic never came up.
My players were utterly fascinated by the amount of gold coins stacked one upon the other and tried for (ingame) hours to pry them loose; they never found the slits though.
They never announced to take 20 on that one and I didn't enforce it.
I allowed a save against the illusion, the cleric made it, announced it was only rock and even showed the others the chipped of flakes but they wouldn't have it.
Ruyan.
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Now for something completely different...
Why does it take NualiA so long I get past the coin door? Lyrie has detect secret doors in her spellbook which can show you the opening mechanism in round three. Shouldn't she be able to just memoriZe that a bunch of times and hen find the secret door with ease the next day?
How do other peoples PCs end up finding the coin slots?
Thanks in advance.
In short, Nualia and her crew didn't realize that it was a secret door, thus they weren't looking for any way to manipulate it or gain access. Since they weren't aware of it, Lyrie had no need to memorize the spell.
Don't forget that they were attacked by the shadows in the nearby crypt, and so, to them, that whole area had nothing but "bad stuff" that had no positive effect towards their mission at hand.
Nitpick.
Isn't Permanent Image a figment illusion? Which means, "A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else." So, Permanent Image wouldn't make the column seem like gold. But, it could make a Golden Coin illusion around the column (say the column has a 5 ft diameter, then there could be a gold illusion around it with a 5 ft 1 inch diameter).
Functionally, I don't think this makes ANY DIFERENCE. It's just interesting that they painstakingly made the column look like a stack of coins, then just put up an image around it. I imagine a pissed off mason who spent half a year of his life on a beautiful column only to have this illusion hiding his work.
Or maybe we can just wave our hand and say "Permanent Image, Thassilonian-style"
I just had the question coming up where the bridge trap CR (Area C 9 in Thistletop) comes from. According to the trap calculating rules, it would have a negative CR, and even calculating it according to the old 3.5 rules gives me a zero. In the original adventure, it is given an CR of 2, in the anniversary it has a CR 4. I could not find anything about the trap CR on these boards. Does it have its CR boosted due to the challenge of falling into the ocean?
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Barry, the unofficial errata is that Nualia doesn't actually qualify for Power Attack. The suggestion is to replace that feat with Step Up (which was very surprising to my druid). Here's the attack stats I had:
+1 bastard sword +12 (1d10 + 8/19-20) (1d10+9) if 2h.
Attack: +3 cleric BAB, +2 fighter BAB, +2 FotA, +3 STR, +1 divine favour , +1 weapon focus.
Dmg: +3 STR, +2 ferocious strike, +2 FotA, +1 divine favour
claw +6 (1d6 +6)
Attack: +3 cleric BAB, +2 fighter BAB, +2 FotA, +3 STR, +1 divine favour, -5 secondary attack
Dmg: +1 STR (secondary), +2 ferocious strike, +2 FotA, +1 divine favour
Creative Director
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I just had the question coming up where the bridge trap CR (Area C 9 in Thistletop) comes from. According to the trap calculating rules, it would have a negative CR, and even calculating it according to the old 3.5 rules gives me a zero. In the original adventure, it is given an CR of 2, in the anniversary it has a CR 4. I could not find anything about the trap CR on these boards. Does it have its CR boosted due to the challenge of falling into the ocean?
The trap math breaks down thusly:
Perception DC 15: –1
Disable Device DC 15: –1
DC 13 Reflex: –1
Average Damage 14 lethal (round to 10), multiple targets (x2): +2
Liquid (falling into the ocean): +5
Total CR = 4
I just had the question coming up where the bridge trap CR (Area C 9 in Thistletop) comes from. According to the trap calculating rules, it would have a negative CR, and even calculating it according to the old 3.5 rules gives me a zero. In the original adventure, it is given an CR of 2, in the anniversary it has a CR 4. I could not find anything about the trap CR on these boards. Does it have its CR boosted due to the challenge of falling into the ocean?The trap math breaks down thusly:
Perception DC 15: –1
Disable Device DC 15: –1
DC 13 Reflex: –1Average Damage 14 lethal (round to 10), multiple targets (x2): +2
Liquid (falling into the ocean): +5
Total CR = 4
Thanks, James. Seems like I missed a few things...
I'm running a group through RotR (AE), and they're almost finished with Thistletop. They have captured Nualia along with her papers, etc. They have also pieced together most pieces of Nualia's backstory, in part because they found in town her diary from her Sandpoint years up until her miscarriage. (I used the diary entries that another poster had kindly put together.)
My question: is it reasonable at this point to just give the players a copy of page 12 ("Nualia's Story")? Or are there too many details given away there about the Magnimar connection? Should I just black out the references to Norgorber and/or the Skinsaw Cult?
I wouldn't give them "Nualia's Story". Aside from the fact that it will give away things they haven't come across or figured out yet, I much prefer for the players to only have access to in-character information. They have the diary handout, and a few other bits and pieces, which should be enough for them to refer to. If they've found out other information that isn't written down (from questioning people, for example), encourage at least one of them to make a note of it.
+1
That's how I handled it as well: gave them the fan-based diary pages (excellent work btw!) and had one PC (who grew up in Sandpoint) verify the entries and provide some more backstory to Nualia.
If you wanted to give away the Magnimar connection, I'd strongly advise to use the free RPG day module Dawn of the Scarlet Son as a red hering/interlude/side quest as diversion.
Ruyan.
How deep is the tide pool in level two of the Thistletop Dungeon?
To my knowledge it doesn't say. I had it gradually deepen towards the west to 10 feet (that's the diameter given for the 20-ft long tunnel and makes the ceiling of it level with the chamber's floor).
Ruyan.
Greetings, fellow traveller.
The general rule is that magic items are made using the minimum caster level (CL 1 in this case). The magic missile would therefore hit for 1d4+1 force damage.
Ruyan.
Nowhere. If (at all) have a look at the Core Rule Book (CRB) or on the PRD in the Magic Item Creation section.
As the item cost are CL dependent, see here the general rule is to assume lowest CL possible.
Also: the price for a fully charged (50 charges) wand of cure light wounds is usually 750 gp which would correspond to CL 1.
Ruyan.
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thanks again, but i already know those pages.
the assumption that the wand is crafted at the lowest possible level can be ok for a core rulebook entry, but not for a magic item in an adventure path (imho).
hence my question.
i will assume that it's just "bad write up" from the part of the designer..
and even in that entries, the assumption is made to desume the costs.
well, i will resort to "house rules" for any object (scrolls, wands, rods etc) that are able to cast/reproduce spells.
thanks anyway RuyanVe
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I'm running a group through RotR (AE), and they're almost finished with Thistletop. They have captured Nualia along with her papers, etc. They have also pieced together most pieces of Nualia's backstory, in part because they found in town her diary from her Sandpoint years up until her miscarriage. (I used the diary entries that another poster had kindly put together.)
My question: is it reasonable at this point to just give the players a copy of page 12 ("Nualia's Story")? Or are there too many details given away there about the Magnimar connection? Should I just black out the references to Norgorber and/or the Skinsaw Cult?
Yes, it's reasonable to hand them a copy of that page, that's what I did. It's information that happened in her past, so it isn't out of character for her to include that stuff in her journal. As far as the PCs are concerned, they don't know about any of that stuff, so to them it's just more fluffy background stuff. When they do eventually learn more about it, it allows book 1 to be more closely connected with the rest of the story—without it, what else do the players have to tie book 1 with the rest of the story other than some randomly placed incidental stuff?
To my knowledge it doesn't say. I had it gradually deepen towards the west to 10 feet (that's the diameter given for the 20-ft long tunnel and makes the ceiling of it level with the chamber's floor).
Ruyan.
Makes sense, guess that's what I'll go with. Thanks, Ruyan.
thanks again, but i already know those pages.
the assumption that the wand is crafted at the lowest possible level can be ok for a core rulebook entry, but not for a magic item in an adventure path (imho).
hence my question.i will assume that it's just "bad write up" from the part of the designer..
No, it's just a standard assumption about wands and similar magic items (such as potions and scrolls). The wand is indeed intended to be CL1. Lyrie is not supposed to be that tough, certainly not on her own.
Most of the time a wand at a higher caster level is not as good as buying multiple wands at the minimum level. This is certainly true for a wand of cure light wounds or a wand of mage armor. For attack spells it is debatable, but getting two magic missiles at a time from a wand costs you three times the cost of a single missile at a time.
Remember that if you boost the CL of items in the hands of enemies, you are also boosting how much gp their treasure is worth. By quite a bit, potentially. There is already a lot of treasure in Thistletop, so if you do this you may need to adjust the value of other things downwards.
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I've just started running Burnt Offerings (Anniversary Edition), and I'm having difficulties envisaging Ezakien Tobyn. He was meant to be a cleric of Desna, a CG goddess of fun, freedom and luck, and was well loved by everyone in Sandpoint.
However, he seems to have behaved like a complete dick to his adopted daughter, in a way that I would describe as very Lawful and anti-freedom, showing no compassion when she gets pregnant and forcing her to behave in a way that more fits a highly moralising religion.
The players have pretty much decided that he was nasty (they started questioning Naulia's 'death' as soon as Tobyn's remains were stolen, and on hearing the story, decided that she had burnt the church in revenge against her nasty father and was probably now behind the new events), and I have a lot of trouble disagreeing with their conclusions (they've now just captured Tsuto and his notes, so their suspicions have been confirmed).
Has anyone come up with a reason for why Tobyn behaved like he did, that is consistent with him being a cleric of Desna? It doesn't really affect the game, but I'd like to settle things in my mind.
Thanks,
Sam.
How about the corrupting influence of the Minor Runewell of Wrath? All the other dick-ish activity in town seems to be linked to the Runewell's reactivation... Perhaps Tobyn was such a nice guy to begin with that instead of slaying Nualia in a rage, the malevolent forces could only get him to be an over-protective father? ;-)
How obvious is it that the sihedron medallion can also be used as a scrying device by the runelords? When a pc examines the medallion with spellcraft, should they be told about this? Does it depend on the roll? Just wondering how others are handling this, as one of my pc's did decide to use the medallion.
I treated the medallion as a "cursed item" in terms of that.
So to identify its positive features was a spellcraft DC of 15 + CL = 15 + 5 = 20.
To figure out it was cursed with the 'scrying thang' was +10, or a Spellcraft DC of 30 to know it's cursed.
Normally in Book 1 you can rely on PCs not hitting that, but if they do, woo hoo for them!
And usually, after trying once and getting info, nobody will do so again. Hehe.
Ruyan.
Has anybody run into the issue of players with Herolab seeing all of the medallion's abilities? I'm inching up on Thistletop in the game I'm GMing, and don't want to give away a potentially fun curveball for later in the game.
Yes. It's REALLY annoying!
You pretty much have to hover over them as they add it and make sure they don't read it.
I didn't find a way to turn it off.
Maybe do a custom item instead?
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Yeah. Don't tell them it's THAT medallion. Call it something else and give it the abilities you wish them to "see"--except when they succeed at the Spellcraft check (DC30?).
Ruyan.
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I handled it pretty much the same way as NobodysHome. The scrying ability of the amulets would be harder to discover than what they do, and I enjoyed the look on the wizard's face when he realized his amulet had the same feature. Makes them debate what to do with the things once they realize they're not as free a lunch as they thought!
Has anybody run into the issue of players with Herolab seeing all of the medallion's abilities? I'm inching up on Thistletop in the game I'm GMing, and don't want to give away a potentially fun curveball for later in the game.
Yep, never occurred to me that would be a risk until after the wizard added it and started reading the description, in complete innocence mind you. His spellcraft and knowledge arcana are already at ungodly levels (8th level in Hook Mountain) and I'll just let him figure it out when the group finds their third medallion which is very likely to happen in the next few sessions (pending the fate of its current owner, who, based on previous history with this group, does not have much life expectancy left.)
So my party succeeded in capturing Nualia - despite my best efforts to let her escape. How do I roleplay her? They might try to take her to Sandpoint and throw her in prison and interrogate her.
Will she talk, at all? How insane has she gone? Will she try to strike a bargain, or just try to stay silent and seek a way to escape?
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I think she's redeemable, though she's definitely deranged. Her hatred for Sandpoint is justifiable, as the townsfolk unintentionally mistreated her. She sees her angelic heritage as a curse, and hates herself because of it. The only time she's not been betrayed by someone she trusts is back in Magnimar. Xanesha and the rest are definitely using her, just like everyone else in her life, but they've done so with more skill than anyone else. I don't see her caving or turning them over to save her own skin.
It's been a common suggestion for someone of authority in Sandpoint to suggest that they give Nualia the help she clearly needs, and she gets admitted to Habe's Sanatorium. I really like this idea - it introduces Habe to the PCs before the next book starts, and also personalizes the horror when they realize what they've subjected her to...especially when they realize she's been removed from his care! (Xanesha or one of her minions got her out in the middle of the night, and she's now reinforcing Ironbriar or something.)
I also had a problem with Hero Lab spoiling the Medallion. For such an iconic item from such an important AP, I am kind of surprised that they really ruined the "surprise". After my party got the item and added in HL there was much discussion of Runelords, scrying and other plot points I was really trying to reveal through play. It was very disappointing. They could stick to a physical and mechanical description and leave the History lesson to the DM material (ie keep it in the AP) there is no reason to allow players to have that information when they innocently add the item to their HL characters.
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So my party succeeded in capturing Nualia - despite my best efforts to let her escape. How do I roleplay her?
Angry, unbalanced, fanatical. She's part way through a transformation bestowed on her by an evil god - she's committed to evil in a very real sense. I dare say Lamashtu would make sure redemption came at a very high price.
They might try to take her to Sandpoint and throw her in prison and interrogate her.
I doubt she'd be safe there if it becomes widely known the fire, and the death of her father, was her doing. Could be an interesting sub-plot - protecting her from the angry townspeople.
Will she talk, at all?
I think she would - she wants her story known, how she was mistreated and misunderstood. She might be more vague about just WHO helped her out in Magnimar, which might make for good foreshadowing.
How insane has she gone?
Doesn't the AP mention somewhere that she's given up her womb to Lamashtu? That's a genuine and special kind of crazy. In fact, a human treating with Lamashtu at all is a kind of crazy.
In technical terms...she's a loon ;-)Will she try to strike a bargain, or just try to stay silent and seek a way to escape?
My guess is she'd bargain in bad faith and escape at the first opportunity. She'd be happy to use whatever wiles she could. She's clever and patient enough to play along for a while though, to lull the party into a sense of security.
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So my party succeeded in capturing Nualia - despite my best efforts to let her escape. How do I roleplay her? They might try to take her to Sandpoint and throw her in prison and interrogate her.
Will she talk, at all? How insane has she gone? Will she try to strike a bargain, or just try to stay silent and seek a way to escape?
Belegdel has it right - she is a 4th level cleric of Lamashtu and has the Mark of Lamashtu feat: she's extremely committed and completely insane. But the most important question isn't what is Nualia going to do, it's what are you going to do? What direction do you think would be interesting for you and your players?
If your players would be interested in actually trying to redeem her (though I think that's a "so you're saying there's a chance" a la Dumb & Dumber) then let them try.
If you're somehow attached to her and want to use her again, then let her escape off screen. Though from my point of view, that's crummy GMing. Your players are trying to be more than murderhobos and you reward them by making the authorities either incompetent or corrupt. (And those authorities - Ironbriar - that are already established as corrupt have absolutely no incentive to stick their necks out for Nualia or any of her crew.) If you go this route, don't be surprised if they never take another prisoner for the rest of the campaign.
If you don't want these entanglements, the Mayor in Sandpoint can order her summarily executed. The players did the right thing, the legal authorities took action, all is good. Keep in mind what Nualia and her crew have done to Sandpoint is pretty awful and what they were planning was even worse. The players could have to fight a lynch mob off just to get her to jail and almost certainly should if someone tries to take her or her crew to Magnimar for trial.
As for what she will say to the pc's or other captors: ramblings about Lamashtu's grace, prophesying the burning of Sandpoint, proclaiming her complete faith Lamashtu will send her champions to save her, etc. "You will all perish in flame!" If you want to take it to a more adult level, she can suggest a variety of perverse mating options to any females she might encounter.
That's a genuine and special kind of crazy
Yep, that's a "chuch-going, charity fundraising, seemed really nice at first and was then discovered to be bat-s@#t crazy who slashes your car tyres and screams through your letter box at 3am in the morning ex-girlfriend kind of crazy".
Any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.
I was even debating having her be pregnant with a quickly growing fiend, that might make the party explode with discussions... could be interesting, or it could be much more horrible than we are prepared for.
I think if the town of Sandpoint learned what she had been up to the whole town would be chanting "Burn the Witch!" They would be delighted to see her hang.
She has already partially transformed into a demon. There's not a lot of hope for her.