I haven't got my copy of 150 yet, so I can't say much until then. However, I don't think that any self respecting demon lord is going to use many magic items even if he can create them. Magic items are gimiks for mortals who lack true power. Self respecting demons trust in their vast natural abilities to give them all the edge they need to take down their enemies. The only kind of magic items that I would think Big D wouldn't consider beneath him would be epic items and artifiacts. Few magic items will be more effective than his natural attacks and powers.
Well, the possibilities for reducing Demogorgon's power can easily be written out of the script, and it's also easy to add a few magic items to his equipage, and not to let Gwynharwyf or Malcanthet into the picture. Seems to me the final battle is really easy to scale to your liking without a lot of extra work on your part--the CR 33 version of Big D can hardly be a pushover!
As for the size of the room, that's easy to fix too--just make it bigger. I've noticed a lot of encounters in the APs where the monsters seemed a bit too large for the room--but if you open the room up it does give the PCs more room to evade him as well.
Any really nice loot in abysm? ;)
You will have to tailor the Prince of Demons to best challenge your players' characters.
Especially with gifted munchkin'ers, you will have to consider what kinds of attacks they can deliver to the Prince of Demons. (Such as the psychos with uberfied dervishes that intend to be able to deliver something broken like, oh, 11 or more attacks in a round, tacking on skirmish bonus damage per hit ...)
And, frankly, I think that is the whole purpose of the developers having given him the Item Crafter ability. That is how to ensure that the Big Double-D can properly challenge the party, in spite of how gravely weakened he is if they are successful in softening his capabilities considerably.
Say, for example, a couple of one-shot Mordenkainen's Disjunctions (CL 20) to huck at the party. The epic item which grants energy immunity to all 5 energy types. Bracers of armor of heavy fortification with proof against necromancy and transmutation. In a nutshell, tailor Demogorgon for your specific character group. Not to hose them royally, but to make them sweat out the munchkin builds. In other words, make thier primary uber-hackers EARN thier whacks, make the spellchuckers earn thier jobs.
Granted, it is quite clear that his "build" is heavily dependant upon his SR to soak almost everything that gets thrown at him. However, a 20th level character with +1 spell power and Greater Spell Penetration plus an appropriate reserve feat AND an item adding +2 more [total CL check vs SR of +28] is rather probable, especially after early on lessons in game [and more likely in previous campaigns where the SR critters came out of the wood work] demonstrated the wisdom of rack-n-stack to beating SR. As written, his SR of 36 against that +28 is not particularly effective, blocking an effect that allows SR only about 1 time in 3, failing to do so on a natural 7 or less on 1d20. I strongly suspect that most spellhuckers are going to be packing Greater Spell Penetration at the minimum, which means they have to throw an 11 or better, giving them 50/50 odds per spell of getting through. I also suspect that was a deliberate consideration when statting him at the full NL 10 modifier.
He has a 30 INT score - he is far, far from stupid, and is aeons old. If whatsherface is going to prove to be a problem (especially if you know your PCs can dish out and take plenty of punishment on thier own), fudge his initiative count to one higher than hers (although preferably you don't fudge his roll) and *bloop* no more Deux ex Machina soaking up several hundred hit points that should rightly go to your PC's. Checking his VERY high Spellcraft check bonus,
Other pointers:
All his summoning ability is limited to is 30 HD per day. Tailor a demon that fits the bill to be so summoned, with precisely 30 HD. (This is limited by "unique", not necessarily the same thing as "advanced". Go ahead an slap that elite array on whatever fiend it is he summons too, make the characters squirm.)
Wat Dagon is his place, once he gets the pearl - and especially if the party rips through most of his hp on round one - he will assuredly vacate the premises to glue himself back together before returning for a repeat engagement as quickly as his recuperative abilities will allow him.
He is highly mobile, like virtually all fiends, and certainly can and will use and abuse this capability. If he can gather, or has already gathered, intelligence on the PC's, he will likely VERY quickly adapt to the foes in his special place, returning to pick them apart, very likely in a series of bamf-clobber-bamf recurrant engagements.
He can get in, get clobbered, bamf out, heal up, projected image with detects and skill checks, get shoo'd, bamf in, clobber mightily, rinse, lather, repeat. It will suck to be the characters, yep yep.
I completely agree he became far too weak, especially considering the allies the PCs get.
I know for my own game I will be weakening him a bit less. He won't lose his spell-like abilities, and will probably only lose his demon controlling aura.
When he arrives, it won't be by Gate but by the very essence of the Abyss kind of roiling up and shaping itself into the most horrific demon lord the Abyss has to offer! Plus the room will reshape itself into a more suitable final stand.
I fully plan on him using Gate to bring in Belcheresk as well as calling on his ally Zuggtmoy, who will send an aspect to aid him. If the players use Gate to call in reinforcements, I will fully allow this. Possibly canceling his allies out, effectively.
I do plan on allowing the negative levels, but I'm going to rule that the reason for them taking out a lot of the aspects, clones, and weakening his power is simply to bring him down to a level they can actually fight and hope to even stand a chance against.
Oh, and I believe he can actually summon 90HD of demons... That's several Balors. Or even more Mariliths. With 6 attacks per round, that can get mighty nasty.
This is something I really think my players will be able to handle and even kind of expect. If they faced the weak as can be Demogorgon they're meant to, I just don't think the players will fully appreciate the win.
I know in a campaign I played in last year with the same group, we went Epic and fought this avatar of a Dragon god who had been causing all manner of problems for the multiverse for the entire campaign. Our plans worked insanely well, and we even gathered together five artifacts designed entirely to kill this one being. We killed it in like four rounds. Nobody even died. Honestly, we felt cheated out of what should have been our crowning moment. Even the DM was like... "Oh. He looked tougher when I statted him out. So what next?"
Lame.
I won't be running a final combat like that.
Still, I think really you need to make the final call on what your group can handle and will enjoy. You're the DM after all.
Other than the finale, I loved 150 btw.
Eh...
First off, don't neglect the massive impact of Demogorgon's dual mind. Kyuss didn't get to go twice every round, and neither did Adimarchus. Nulonga should be reinforcing her every third round, infesting the body of every dead PC, even if Gate is sealed.
Gwynharwyf only has a 50% chance of making it through the Gate, and you'd only let her even try if one of the PCs is already dead, so that player can control her in order to have something to do in the final battle of the campaign. Also, Malcanthet's spell-like abilities are not exactly particularly useful in this battle. Most of them won't even work in the final battle.
As far as the five tasks that weaken Demogorgon, you do have the option of not spoon-feeding the players all of them. The confrontation with Malcanthet, in particular, involves the PCs being submissive as she directs what amounts to an attack at them, so it actually ends up highly likely that they'll lose her assistance. Since humoring her is necessary for Obox-Ob's assistance, too, simply not giving them infinite chances with her is probably sufficient to make Demogorgon as challenging as they can stand.
More of a matter of playing him smartly and without mercy - and personally I don't expect him to go down all that low in negative levels as to being a CR 23 version.
He is pretty devastating in close up combat (which comes to bear even more in the confined quarters of the final chamber, where hardly anyone can retreat out of range and "bombard" from a distance, or stay back to heal and shield.... let him attack the cleric first ?), and simply the PCs will already be weakenend and partially depleted from the previous encounters when they arrive to face him.
As for items...... I don't think they are going to make much of a difference, unless one's campaign is already badly broken in favour of the player characters...
just my 2 cent
One important point to make mention of is the PCs should also be pretty weakened by this point. During this assault there is no time to rest and recuperate, the entire adventure has to be handled in one go. There are some awful tough fights prior to the big D, so having that help for this battle might just be necesscary to survive.
Two words that can make Demogorgon into something that makes your PCs cry:
Mordenkainen's disjunction.
Office Ninja brings up an excellent point. You can trivially make even the CR23 version of Demogorgon absolutely unbeatable with some cherry-picked magic items. Disjunction from a scroll is fantastic, and I'd be very surprised if the PCs didn't lead off with one, too. A Staff of Life means Demogorgon has Fast Healing: 150. Giving Demogorgon a few Scrolls of Time Stop, or worse yet fully augmented Power Stones of Temporal Acceleration to go with this would be just plain malicious. Most any cheese that the PCs can use can be duplicated by Demogorgon, if you're so inclined.
If the PCs can burn through 600hp worth of Demogorgon in a single round, before she goes (in one round, with no chance to interrupt) Full Attack-Time Stop-HealHealHealHeal for full hp, then chances are you were too lenient with them long before this fight, and no possible set of stats would result in an interesting combat.
well, I know of at least one power-combo that can (legally) deal app. 800+ damge (after save !, no SR applicable ) in one round, even to Big D. No terrible power-gaming or min-maxing involved either.
And I am pretty certain there are further one's out there.... But in all honesty - if players can pull off something like that, functioning perfectly and to maximum effect just when they need it (without any foresight and hence -planning ) "Kudos" to them for the quickest BBEG kill ever.
And that applies to almost all versions of Big-D, CR 33 or CR 23....
BUT.... We have a guy with tremendous reach, Combat Reflexes, very deadly and accurate melee attacks in a tight room (stats drain, Energy drain, Two simultaneous gaze attacks covering the area) - where he can bring everything he has to bear on the opposition. His abilities render moot most defensive magics (no illusion-effects applicable against someone with True Seeing ) and the side effects of these alone are nasty enough.
Which means - any fight against him will be extremly short, very brutal and in that way 'epic' in its conclusion. Because if a party cannot take him down very fast, he will do precisely that to them - allies, Malcanteth's spells or whatever, it just won't matter. If you hand him a single use 'time stop'.... ouch....
And actually I consider any hair-raising battle against a major player of DnD cosmology (and he is as major as they come ) epic enough to remember and cherish - even if it should last only for a few seconds.
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I agree that the room for the final Demogorgon encounter should play to his strengths, and for a melee combatant that means 'nowhere to hide from my tentacles'. But the OP's critique that it's not flavorful is worth addressing. What if it starts as a big chamber, but once our man D arrives, the walls start dripping slime and rush inwards at 60 ft./round? That's dynamic and memorable, plus PCs might find a way to turn it to their advantage.
Old Baboon Face KNOWS the PCs. He has studied them since they fought her aspect in the IoD. He should know their strengths and weaknesses by now. They have been a thorn in her side for long enough. Plus, she is smarter than any of us combined. Play her strengs and brains. She has fought and defeated all who oppose her. But do not forget that she is chaotic. That may be the PCs only saving grace.
Am I missing something? I always thought Demogorgon was a "he." Perhaps my heteronormative assumptions are getting in the way of my perception, here? (After all, he/she's been dating succubi for years).
Some people say Demogorgon is a He, others say Demogorgon is a She. I just say neuter the demon now!
Am I missing something? I always thought Demogorgon was a "he." Perhaps my heteronormative assumptions are getting in the way of my perception, here? (After all, he/she's been dating succubi for years).
In Mystara, Demogorgon was referred to as female. The current Demogorgon is, though, fairly explicitly male.
I'm not too worried about Demogorgon's gaze and negative energy tail slap because if my players haven't figured to utilize spells like mind blank and deathward at this level then they desereve to fall victim to his attacks.
Death Ward has a 1min/level duration, and they don't get much of a warning before Demogorgon attacks. Certainly not enough for the cleric to buff the entire party with a single wand. If Demogorgon leads off with a Disjunction, they will not have Death Wards unless they spend a round while Demogorgon is beating on them replacing it. Remember that a cleric cannot target others with spells during a Time Stop, even if those spells are protective.
Mind Blank has a 24-hour duration, so odds are they will not have a second one prepared unless you've set the groundwork by using Disjunction regularly. Even if they do have the second one prepared for the entire party, the same issues arise.
@koboldlord
/agree
It may also bear considering that uite number of pretty devastating spells are impossible to use in the final chamber, simply because they might crunch the party as well...
then again, have it your way, but I actually wouldn't overdo it - if your group gets wiped (and I find that already highly likely with the standard "Demogorgon" variants ) because you 'upped' the BBEG some further....
well to my mind, anyone who actually makes it to the "Grand Finale", hacking through St. Kargoth, the stupid shaman and the Vanthus-the-larvae (big Kudos for _that_ one... I see my group howling with glee at that final fate of his !), they deserve a fair fight. And that includes letting him have weaknesses, so the players actually stand a chance against him. Making him impervious...
IMHO handing Demogorgon an artifact "just because" (not like he doesn't wield one already ) may just be overkill - and probably an unsatisfying end to a great STAP.
But....... go ahead
Old Baboon Face KNOWS the PCs. He has studied them since they fought her aspect in the IoD. He should know their strengths and weaknesses by now. They have been a thorn in her side for long enough. Plus, she is smarter than any of us combined. Play her strengs and brains. She has fought and defeated all who oppose her. But do not forget that she is chaotic. That may be the PCs only saving grace.
I would disagree
First, he has other things to do and opposition to gauge for strengths and weaknesses. Ocrus, Grazzt, Frazz'ur'lub, Lolth, to name but a few obvious ones. Iggwilv, Obox-Ob Pazuzu etc. just for feeling safe. Thousands of mortals and immortals from outside the Abyss trying to foil his plans... Lot's of work to go around, even for someone multitasking with two heads.
Second, he will have tremendous gaps in his surveillance, simply because they will have passed into realms and areas where he cannot gaze or scry, has no agents or because the information is simply not existant - or do you think he has some way to peer into Orcus's abode or even realm ? Malcanteth ? Iggwilv's ? Or would you imagine Charon to be pleased to be watched by someone he obviously has hard feelings about - Charon who would actually decline become "prince of demons" because it would be a demotion ? Yeah I imagine he would tread carefully around some of his rivals' claims
Plus, the rules of the game apply to Big-D as well - scry on someone you have a connection to, or a known location (with the level 6 spell variant )... subject to "Mind Blank" etc. which the chars likely have access too from level 13 onward and which they use regularly.
Careful players are the worst thing that can happen to him (if the GM plays fair ), and if he was so knowledgable about their plans, he would know that the attacks by Orcus and Gwenny are an - in the end menaningless - diversion, that the true strike will come at Wat Dagon. Doesn't look like he does, right ? No half-regiment of Mariliths guarding the place's proper, no mean ambush to take them out....
And who is he to ask about the PCs ? they likely weren't known anywhere but locally a year before, and have risen drastically in powers and ability since then. I gues sthey don#t advertise or have ballads written about each and every aspect of their life right now by fascinated bards, either...
And what "thorny" stuff have they actually done ? Defaced a minor, forgotten temple on the IoD ? Stopped production of Shadow Pearls (obviously he already has and had enough of those ) ? Defeated a coven of worshippers in Scuttlecove ( no mean feat, but I would expect something like that to happen at least every few months throught the multiverses and worlds he is active in...)... and stomped through his prison to free some ( rather unrelated to his "Grand Scheme" ) female human, Lavinia.... Freed his ex-lover too who promptly tried to escape *yawn*
You know, if he really felt them to be _the_ major threat worth of his attention and Study, he would hit them the second the "Sea Wyvern" sailed into his Layer. With something more than just his personal "last moment" presence...
Or just for the argument's sake, do you honestly think he would be surprised and wounded (as stated in the encounter outline ) by Malcanteth's betrayal of him, if he followed the PCs achievments closely - I mean, having an audience with Malcanteth twice within a few days is rather noteworthy, isn't it ?
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Here's what you might want to do, prep-wise:
Step 1) Find two or three other players or DMs who don't know your campaign.
Step 2) Haul out Demogorgon's stats and spend some time as a group going over the critter's abilities.
Step 3) Haul out the party's character sheets. Have Demogorgon (played by everyone except you) take 10 on Spot and Sense Motive checks to see what he can tell about each PC from just a glance.
Step 4) Run the battle with you running the PC's and the other people running Demogorgon, doing their level best to kill the party. Assume all d20 rolls are "10".
Repeat if necessary with different levels of Demogorgon.
I'll start by saying every game I play is very PC-centric. They can do all sorts of earth-shaking stuff, re-draw campaign world maps, kill NPCs of any level of importance and so on - it is their world on which to leave a mark. They drive the story, they're the heroes and stars. They aren't pushovers in a fight, either, though rarely have I dealt with "min-maxed" characters.
-THAT SAID-
The endgame adventures as I'm going to run them will be different as the PCs are treading lightly around The Ultimate Threat - the Prince of Demons himself. When he learns of the conspiracy (despite certain assurances of annonymity), Demogorgon is going to rip up Iggwilv, the Aspect of Orcus and other notables first, giving the PCs the time they need to take out the major villians, the demon that corrupted vanthus (already established through foreshadowing) and the first death knight (who will be frequently foreshadowed as a really powerful bad guy, once the PCs get to the abyss) and claim the pearl.
As they do, Demogorgon (who needs no stats, as far as I'm concerned) arrives like a collapsing building in the movies, something the PCs have to make it out of Watt Dagon to escape. The Whirling Fury heroically buys them the time they need, making sure Demogorgon knows "Orcus and I planned the whole thing..."
Maybe if the group decides to go epic, they'll duke it out with Demogorgon at another time. Or they'll just just retire to farshore, and look back tearfully yet fondly on the time they lost their immortal patron, but saved the world and fooled the Prince of Demons into thinking one of his many old enemies had yet again foiled his plans ... just not talk too about it too loudly.
So I'm not worried about a wussy send off, really.