So my rotten to the core players just found another item I'm going to have to disallow.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Its supposed to be a cursed item but, in reality, its one of the most uber items in the game.
Throw it in the air and everyone in a 20' radius has to make saves or loose Con. So far no real problem ... but then we get to the last line. Even if you do save your stunned - for 5d4 fricken rounds - no save. So basically this translates into kill anything that breathes. Toss this at a really old dragon and the beast is still pretty much dead. On average it will spend the next 13 rounds coughing and doing nothing else - no save.
I figured that I'd screw my players over on the delivery method but they are wily and saw it coming. The fighter just ran forward and threw the stuff up in the air - sure he was effected too but that just meant that he and the dragon where both out of the picture - that left the rest of the party to see if they could manage to take it out with more then 10 rounds of attacks while the Dragon was incapable of taking any actions whatsoever.
So far as I can tell the power to kill just about anything weaker then a lesser God currently goes for a 2,400 gp on the open market.
Throw undead or constructs at them. Or, simply say it's cursed, so you can only make it by accident. Say, 1 out of every 15 tries you get a horked up batch, and that's only if you are purposely attempting to make it. Better yet, let the word get out. The value of this "cursed" item skyrockets, and all the PC's enemies begin to use it against them as an opening act unless they can act fast and squash it at the source of production.
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Throw undead or constructs at them.
What? Forever? Also I'm already cutting back a tad on undead - my players are really hooked up to slaughter the things. Constructs would work - but I kind of think that doing the next 10 levels with the players fighting nothing but one construct after another might become a tad, well boring.
...and all the PC's enemies begin to use it against them as an opening act unless they can act fast and squash it at the source of production.
Yeah - I can't use this against them - its an unstoppable TPK. If an enemy uses it then I might as well just stop the game right there and inform my players that, while I could roll the dice to see how many rounds it takes for me to kill them, it would simply be a waste of my time and theirs. They are all dead, since there is nothing they can do to stop this they might as well start rolling up new characters.
...Or, simply say it's cursed, so you can only make it by accident. Say, 1 out of every 15 tries you get a horked up batch, and that's only if you are purposely attempting to make it...
Yeah its hard to judge what the real value is of an item that automatically kills all creatures in a 20' radius that happen to breath. Plus skyrocketing values have their own issues. What if my PCs start trying to make and sell the stuff? Plus if the price rises so, presumably does the supply. Even beyond this I don't think that the value of the item would sky rocket so much as the value of things like necklaces of adaption. Most people don't intend to ruthlessly slaughter large numbers of creatures but presumably everyone that is anyone would rather not be murdered.
In that case, you need to talk to them. Have a sit down and let them know that the way they are using the item is breaking the game. You don't want to have to ban it outright, but tell them to back off a bit, otherwise it will stop being fun for everyone. It's like a computer game; once you know the cheat codes, that's usually the death knell for the game.
I've always been of the opinion that if they can do it to you (i.e. the DM in the form of his villains and NPCs), you can do it to them. Just once so they get the idea how dangerous this stuff is. May I suggest an accidental release when the party is in a non-life threatening situation? Or against some air elementals or even a wizard with some wind spells... Have the dragon thrash around in his sneezing fit and crush the fighter or bring the cavern down on them. There are ways to get the point across where, if you're careful about how you play it, you don't come across as vindictive, which it certainly doesn't sound like you are...
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So my rotten to the core players just found another item I'm going to have to disallow.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Its supposed to be a cursed item but, in reality, its one of the most uber items in the game.
Throw it in the air and everyone in a 20' radius has to make saves or loose Con. So far no real problem ... but then we get to the last line. Even if you do save your stunned - for 5d4 fricken rounds - no save. So basically this translates into kill anything that breathes. Toss this at a really old dragon and the beast is still pretty much dead. On average it will spend the next 13 rounds coughing and doing nothing else - no save.
I figured that I'd screw my players over on the delivery method but they are wily and saw it coming. The fighter just ran forward and threw the stuff up in the air - sure he was effected too but that just meant that he and the dragon where both out of the picture - that left the rest of the party to see if they could manage to take it out with more then 10 rounds of attacks while the Dragon was incapable of taking any actions whatsoever.
So far as I can tell the power to kill just about anything weaker then a lesser God currently goes for a 2,400 gp on the open market.
In this specific example, what does a dragon do when it sneezes? I would suggest a breath weapon attack each round as it struggles to clear out its nasal passages. And fire, in a fine dust? Explosion? So maximised breath weapon too, at least the first time. And once all that dust burned up - no more dust, a happy dragon that can breath easily (and all that entails), and roasted PCs.
In general, I think the advice is good - do it to them. Also, that sounds insanely powerful for an item that cheap. I would suggest introducing handling problems, so you don't just run around with a vial of this stuff. I would introduce a rule where if you are deliberately at the epicentre when it goes off (i.e. like the fighter) you actually drown in your own sputum (hey, it is magic nasty stuff, after all).
And I'm sure I don't have to point it out, but the BBEG will probably note this tactic and put in a contingency for it, even if it just involves a dose of antihistamine. It is just unfortunate that the dragon wasn't ahead of the game.
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Oooh oooh, a dragon with immediate gust of wind? Sure it is a new spell, and probably level 4 or 5... but what are dragons for except having new spells laying around
or simply replace the itme with something else. If they aren't making their own, let them get a "bad cut"... or some comparitivly better item for the bad guy. Somebody sold them 250gp worth of dust of tracelessness... new plan? new adventure hunt down the bad dealer
As a player, I have on rare occasion made use of this item, mainly to save my character in question from almost certain death. I think it is notable to mention that the character who uses this item is potentially affected by it as well. I interpret the area affected by the dust as basically the twenty feet surrounding where it was thrown from (and that includes the sorry sap who threw the dust). The only item that I believe will effectively safeguard against this stuff is a Necklace of Adaptation, or some other means of negating the need to breathe altogether.
As a GM, I do not let my players purchase this item unless they are of evil alignment, and willing to deal with very unsavory individuals (and the associated problems that accompany dealing with such individuals) to acquire it. If they find it randomly (which as of yet, has never happened) then they in business...
I have not had a villain/monster make use of this stuff on my players in all the years I've GM'd. I'm saving this dust for a very special event, which I have not yet dreamed up. I am however looking forward to such an event, and I'm sure my players are too:)
I concur with much of the advice given above. Don't let them buy it for one thing. Using it against them and causing a TPK, or even just sitting down with them and talking about the fact that if you use it, that will happen, and thus the item is broken, is effectively the same as just saying, "That's it, no more dust for you!" Tell the truth, I doubt the game will be much affected for balance if it's totally disallowed (in your case, it would be a positive step), but the concept just rubs me the wrong way (that's a personal preference, however).
I also like, in this case, more liberal interpretations like Aubrey's. The item may not say that it causes the creature to thrash dangerously, but there's also the very good chance the game designers didn't contemplate the situation if the dust were used on something the size of a house.
Further, considering that the item is supposed to be cursed, I would say that the most disadvantageous situations should be brought around upon its users; i.e., the former post that it should go off where it was thrown from, not to.
It seems from your posts, Jeremy, that you are always in a combative state with your players (and have openly said as much). Perhaps it is this mode of playing, this mindset, which is causing all these problems and employments of "uber items"? In which case, finding out whether they're bringing it to the table, or you are, would be an expedient way to treat the source issue. Or, if you realize that's the case (which you probably do from the posts you've displayed in the past), then this is just one of the cons of that style of play and something that must be dealt with as a matter of course.
So basically this translates into kill anything that breathes. Toss this at a really old dragon and the beast is still pretty much dead. On average it will spend the next 13 rounds coughing and doing nothing else - no save.
I figured that I'd screw my players over on the delivery method but they are wily and saw it coming. The fighter just ran forward and threw the stuff up in the air - sure he was effected too but that just meant that he and the dragon where both out of the picture - that left the rest of the party to see if they could manage to take it out with more then 10 rounds of attacks while the Dragon was incapable of taking any actions whatsoever.
At the risk of offering an overly simplistic solution, what would happen if one held one's breath? I don't have the rulebooks to look up the details of the powder or the rules of holding breath, but I believe holding one's breath is based on constitution. In the above-mentioned senario the dragon would be unable to use his breath weapon, but a dragon could easily hold his breath longer than a PC and still use his claws, wings, tail, etc.
Hi all,
maybe I am not getting it right, but the whole issue seems much more simple to me. According to DMG, the dust of sneezing and choking appears as dust of appearance. As such, the players will intend to use it as if it was dust of appearence, hence most probably throwing it all around them (to see invisible creatures all around and not in only one direction). This means that they will be stunned as well as, most probably, the opponent(s), given the 20 foot radius (which is more than the 10 ft radius of dust of appearence, on which the players made their assumption/calculations when throwing the dust in the air).
Of course, I am assuming that you don't give a wagon of it. Usually they should have 1 dose of it.
I rather doubt they can willingly purchase it, given that it looks something else!
I always just allow a Fort save (DC 14--like against a stinking cloud). Problem solved.
Hi all,
maybe I am not getting it right, but the whole issue seems much more simple to me. According to DMG, the dust of sneezing and choking appears as dust of appearance. As such, the players will intend to use it as if it was dust of appearence, hence most probably throwing it all around them (to see invisible creatures all around and not in only one direction). This means that they will be stunned as well as, most probably, the opponent(s), given the 20 foot radius (which is more than the 10 ft radius of dust of appearence, on which the players made their assumption/calculations when throwing the dust in the air).
Of course, I am assuming that you don't give a wagon of it. Usually they should have 1 dose of it.
I rather doubt they can willingly purchase it, given that it looks something else!
I think this is an excellent stance to take. It's much closer to my understanding of how cursed items are supposed to "work" in D&D. They shouldn't be on the market (at least not ones any Good-aligned being would venture to), and many of them have a nature which cannot be ascertained until the unfortunate owner happens to use the thing. Adopting this stance will likely take care of most problems similar to this one and relating to cursed items.
Players using the correct spells to divine and ascertain an item's properties can through trial and error, successfully identify dust of S&C when they come across it. Hoping the players won't figure out what they've got is not a good strategy to use with savy players and rules lawyers.
I make it difficult for my players to knowingly obtain it, but ultimately, they know that if they start slinging the stuff around regularly, they can expect the same from villains (who will be equipped with necklaces of adaption, protecting said villain from the dust). And as logic would have it, they don't use the dust.
I concur with much of the advice given above. Don't let them buy it for one thing. Using it against them and causing a TPK, or even just sitting down with them and talking about the fact that if you use it, that will happen, and thus the item is broken, is effectively the same as just saying, "That's it, no more dust for you!" Tell the truth, I doubt the game will be much affected for balance if it's totally disallowed (in your case, it would be a positive step), but the concept just rubs me the wrong way (that's a personal preference, however).
I also like, in this case, more liberal interpretations like Aubrey's. The item may not say that it causes the creature to thrash dangerously, but there's also the very good chance the game designers didn't contemplate the situation if the dust were used on something the size of a house.
Further, considering that the item is supposed to be cursed, I would say that the most disadvantageous situations should be brought around upon its users; i.e., the former post that it should go off where it was thrown from, not to.
It seems from your posts, Jeremy, that you are always in a combative state with your players (and have openly said as much). Perhaps it is this mode of playing, this mindset, which is causing all these problems and employments of "uber items"? In which case, finding out whether they're bringing it to the table, or you are, would be an expedient way to treat the source issue. Or, if you realize that's the case (which you probably do from the posts you've displayed in the past), then this is just one of the cons of that style of play and something that must be dealt with as a matter of course.
In the end my players new what the result would be for using this as there is precedent at my table. Its a one use trick - once I figured out what it did I'd ban it. I knew that and they knew that. I'm not a huge fan of banning things but if its totally broken (which I define as anything I can't use on them because its to powerful) I'll toss it from my game.
This does sort of bring up why I bothered to post this at all since I already have a house rule that deals with this situation. But I take note of things like this that other DMs have found and remove them from my game before the players can utilize the trick and I presume that other DMs do the same - so know any DM that has read this thread and hears their players even mention Dust of Sneezing and Chocking knows what the deal is.
Plus I wanted to see if I had misunderstood this some how. Its come to my attention on more then one occasion that how I thought something worked and how it actually works is not necessarily the same thing.
Finally I was just interested in seeing how other DMs dealt with this sort of thing.
Mmmm...also, and probably more important then all the other reasons, I find that when I get home from a game in which the players pull a stunt like that I just want to tell people about it.
Add "Grapplemancer" to your list. ;)
Add "Grapplemancer" to your list. ;)
OK I'll bite - whats a Grapplemancer?
Players using the correct spells to divine and ascertain an item's properties can through trial and error, successfully identify dust of S&C when they come across it. Hoping the players won't figure out what they've got is not a good strategy to use with savy players and rules lawyers.
I make it difficult for my players to knowingly obtain it, but ultimately, they know that if they start slinging the stuff around regularly, they can expect the same from villains (who will be equipped with necklaces of adaption, protecting said villain from the dust). And as logic would have it, they don't use the dust.
However, even if they can figure out what they've got (which I believe is somewhat harder than normal for cursed items), it still doesn't mean they should be able to buy the stuff at will (a stance you seem to enforce yourself).
The interesting thing is, if players don't use the stuff because they know it would be used against them, and that would force a TPK, and therefore no one uses it, is it any different than if the item were banned all togther? Perhaps the best option would simply be to allow a save on the stunned condition, as a previous poster suggested.
In the end my players new what the result would be for using this as there is precedent at my table. Its a one use trick - once I figured out what it did I'd ban it. I knew that and they knew that. I'm not a huge fan of banning things but if its totally broken (which I define as anything I can't use on them because its to powerful) I'll toss it from my game.
This does sort of bring up why I bothered to post this at all since I already have a house rule that deals with this situation. But I take note of things like this that other DMs have found and remove them from my game before the players can utilize the trick and I presume that other DMs do the same - so know any DM that has read this thread and hears their players even mention Dust of Sneezing and Chocking knows what the deal is.
Plus I wanted to see if I had misunderstood this some how. Its come to my attention on more then one occasion that how I thought something worked and how it actually works is not necessarily the same thing.
Finally I was just interested in seeing how other DMs dealt with this sort of thing.
Mmmm...also, and probably more important then all the other reasons, I find that when I get home from a game in which the players pull a stunt like that I just want to tell people about it.
I just always sense a certain degree of opposition in your posts on this matter (between your players and yourself, as you have directly stated in the past), and was just addressing that to make sure that someone had. If you're fine with the way the games are unfolding, more power to you (and I assume that you are; you seem to convey an enjoyment of that competition between sides of the DM's screen). Certainly, I enjoy all the interesting tactics and item uses you bring to light, even if they are only to be summarily banned!
The dread dust in question is indeed stupidly powerful. However, if you've noticed, I do not believe it has ever been an item included in a bad guy's equipment nor in loot found in anything published since 3.5 came into being.
That having been said, there are ways and means of dealing with it. The first and foremost is simply not to include the stuff in the game. (Or, more importantly, if it is included, it could be done as an additive effect to a batch of, say, dust of disappearance or any other similarly dispersed powder.) Wind effects very quickly disperse it, which does no good to those initially caught up in its effect upon initial dispersion. There are, I believe, a few curative spells that can deal with the being stunned part (in the Spell Compendium as I recall), as well as a necklace of adaptation (as pointed out earlier by Allen).
Mainly, as the GM, rather than 'ban' bunches of things, you have to maintain control over what is looted. If they wish to figure out how to manufacture a *cursed* item, by definition that will likely (a) swing alignments to Evil, and (b) require its own seperate item creation feat in order to do so with reliability. Don't forget that items have a craft check behind the curtain to make them prior to enchantment. A Craft (alchemy) check seems in order, albiet not at a particularly high DC. At a guess, tag 400 gp of the value of the item as an alchemy crafting requirement. Given how long it takes to craft 4,000 sp [per the skill description in the PHB], that alone could easily be your best deterrent - something on the order of 10 days' time to craft plus another 2 days per dose to enchant. Most players blanch at the prospect of investing thier few general feats into something fairly narrow.
OK I'll bite - whats a Grapplemancer?
Sorry, forgot for a bit. It's from the crazy guys at The Gaming Den (you think DoS&C choking is bad, look for their write-up on fireball); basically a 1st level wizard with a grapple bonus of +9 that does 1d8 damage shield damage a round. It gets steadily worse from there as you level.
Mainly, as the GM, rather than 'ban' bunches of things, you have to maintain control over what is looted. If they wish to figure out how to manufacture a *cursed* item, by definition that will likely (a) swing alignments to Evil, and (b) require its own seperate item creation feat in order to do so with reliability. Don't forget that items have a craft check behind the curtain to make them prior to enchantment. A Craft (alchemy) check seems in order, albiet not at a particularly high DC. At a guess, tag 400 gp of the value of the item as an alchemy crafting requirement. Given how long it takes to craft 4,000 sp [per the skill description in the PHB], that alone could easily be your best deterrent - something on the order of 10 days' time to craft plus another 2 days per dose to enchant. Most players blanch at the prospect of investing thier few general feats into something fairly narrow.
While a DM can obviously do whatever they want in their game, actually making this stuff is covered in the rules. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a wondrous item and follows the rules for crafting wondrous items.
It's a cursed item so here is my view of how it works. The person holding the bag of dust reaches in and throws out handfulls of the stuff to try and make things appear because they believe it is Dust of Appearance. But lo and behold its a bag of cursed foul dust that sucks your Constitution. Everyone caught in the cloud gets to makes the save for the Con damage. The person throwing the Dust (and only the person throwing the Dust) is studded for 5d4 rounds due to the fact of the high concentration levels on them from grabbing the handfulls of the stuff. Or maybe I'm just mean.
While a DM can obviously do whatever they want in their game, actually making this stuff is covered in the rules. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a wondrous item and follows the rules for crafting wondrous items.
Mainly, as the GM, rather than 'ban' bunches of things, you have to maintain control over what is looted. If they wish to figure out how to manufacture a *cursed* item, by definition that will likely (a) swing alignments to Evil, and (b) require its own seperate item creation feat in order to do so with reliability. Don't forget that items have a craft check behind the curtain to make them prior to enchantment. A Craft (alchemy) check seems in order, albiet not at a particularly high DC. At a guess, tag 400 gp of the value of the item as an alchemy crafting requirement. Given how long it takes to craft 4,000 sp [per the skill description in the PHB], that alone could easily be your best deterrent - something on the order of 10 days' time to craft plus another 2 days per dose to enchant. Most players blanch at the prospect of investing thier few general feats into something fairly narrow.
True - although no item creation feat specifically covers crafting cursed items, neh ? As is, the dust in question is a cursed item, one created by accident, not design. Of course, I will caveat this by stating - at this point - I am going on memory.
True - although no item creation feat specifically covers crafting cursed items, neh ? As is, the dust in question is a cursed item, one created by accident, not design. Of course, I will caveat this by stating - at this point - I am going on memory.While a DM can obviously do whatever they want in their game, actually making this stuff is covered in the rules. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a wondrous item and follows the rules for crafting wondrous items.
Mainly, as the GM, rather than 'ban' bunches of things, you have to maintain control over what is looted. If they wish to figure out how to manufacture a *cursed* item, by definition that will likely (a) swing alignments to Evil, and (b) require its own seperate item creation feat in order to do so with reliability. Don't forget that items have a craft check behind the curtain to make them prior to enchantment. A Craft (alchemy) check seems in order, albiet not at a particularly high DC. At a guess, tag 400 gp of the value of the item as an alchemy crafting requirement. Given how long it takes to craft 4,000 sp [per the skill description in the PHB], that alone could easily be your best deterrent - something on the order of 10 days' time to craft plus another 2 days per dose to enchant. Most players blanch at the prospect of investing thier few general feats into something fairly narrow.
I think that there is no crafting feat for crafting cursed items because the distinction between cursed and not cursed is a sort of subjective category of magic items that are not necessarily always beneficial to the user. Mechanically their still magic items its their utility on the hands of the wielder that has changed not the way they are designed.
The mechanic that really sets them apart is not how they are made but how they are randomly placed in the treasure hoards of level appropriate monsters. In this case they are placed specifically by the DM and will never come up when using random treasure generation.
Somebody necroed a 10 year thread. <faceplam>
