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For a fighter build, I like to go the "bastard sword-pow attack-cleave-etc...etc..." route, and have a bonzo strength.
Is the "good dex/two weapon fighter" type of route better? Which route is better?
I'm thinking that, in a big group with lots of other frontline sluggers, the damage mangler is better for that last bbeg with a fat armor class and boucoup hit points...
I'm just building a fighter for the old pbp right now; wondering what the strengths/weaknesses of each route are essentially.
And Musashi apparently opted for the second route, but the Dungeons and Dragons rules don't exactly mimic real life 100%........
I hate saying this, but I think a 2Her is really the best. You loose out on a possible total of 7 AC over 20 levels, but get all that load of extra damage. Sword and shield is better than two weapons, but just because two weapons has almost nothing going for it. Two weapons obviously does more damage than sword and shield, but 2H does more damage still and has none of the drawbacks of two weapons.
I hate that there is a best, and I hate repeating what I've seen over and over again on the boards, but it is true.
I'm not so sure about best. Combat in 3.5 favors the ability to move around the battlefield and use the odd rules like trip. Remember the thread on helping a fighter beat an 18th level wizard? And there was an earlier thread where someone was complaining that the monsters were ignoring his dwarven tank and how because he had gone for ultra high ac and maximized hit points his movement was ridiculously slow.
Something to consider is that equipment is also a factor in the overall power of a character. Should the two weapon fighter use two swords of wounding and Spring Attack, it could be as devastating as the 2H bastard sword user. True, he won't be able to hold a doorway like the tank. However depending on the DM, that situation might not come up often.
Another thing to consider is if there is a feat where a fighter can "choke up" on a reach weapon so they can actually fight someone within the reach of their weapon. If there is one, then I'd say that going with a halberd would be one of the better choices.
Another thing to consider is if there is a feat where a fighter can "choke up" on a reach weapon so they can actually fight someone within the reach of their weapon. If there is one, then I'd say that going with a halberd would be one of the better choices.
There is. It is called "Short Haft", Player's Handbook 2, page 82.
It allows you to attack adjacent squares, which I think is what you're saying. However, a halberd is not a reach weapon by the RAW. Strange, I know. Of the reach weapons, the Glaive is probably the best.
Okay... that is weird. A halberd is an interesting weapon to use, since it allows for double damage against charges and allows for trip attacks. And if it's not even a reach weapon you don't have to worry about the Short Haft feat.
But the glaive sounds cool too. And I don't mean the Krull throwing bladed disk (although that is cool too).
If by "better" you mean dish out the most damage, a 2 hander wins hands down.
Using Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) you are doing 1d8 (Longsword) + Str + 1d6 (Shortsword) + 0.5 Str Damage.
Using Tw Handed Fighting (THF), you are doing 2d6 (Greatsword) + 1.5 Str.
At first glance, TWF seems to be ahead by 1 average damage (8 to 7 +1.5 Str). But that is not allowing for the extra -2 to hit from TWF. Throw in Power attack, and that becomes 4 damage with THF, meaning THF is 3 total damage in front.
This is of course assuming a full attack. If you are limited to one attack (from moving), then THF pulls even further in front.
Now, add in the impact of DR, and THF pulls even further in front, as the DR hits both attacks from TWF, effectively doubling the DR.
Then there is the fact that effective TWF takes more feats (THF really only "needs" Power Attack), and you things are even worse, but it's not over yet.
TWF needs a high Dex to qualify for the TWF feats, and so you have to make Dex a priority over Str, meaning the THF can put more resources into increasing his Str, meaning his Str will generally be higher than the TWF, which again leads to more damage.
The final nail in the coffin of TWF is the need to enchant 2 weapons, effectively doubling the cost of your weapons.
THF even dominates Sword and Board. The extra AC is not worth the loss in damage IMHO, but you can eventually just buy an animated shield to give you the same AC as the Sword and Board fighter.
For TWF to be effective, you really need a way to get bonus damage on each hit. The easiest way is via rogue Sneak Attack.
Another option is the Revenant Blade PrC from Players Guide to Eberron, which lets you treat each end of a Double Scimitar as a Two Handed Weapon (for 1.5 Str and 1:2 Power Attack). COmbined with the Dervish PrC (Complete Warrior), you will have an unstoppable ball of whirling death.
A third option is to combine a number of different ways to get various Stats to damage (preferrably Dex). This will usually include 3 Levels of Swashbuckler (CW - for Weapon Finesse and Int to Damage), and Swordsage (ToB - for Wis and Dex to damage).
This all assumes you are looking at the raw numbers. Player preference, and character will lead to different choices.
But that is the mechanics. For the best of both words, look into the Halberd, and the "Spinning Halberd" tactical feat from Complete Warrior.
However, a halberd is not a reach weapon by the RAW. Strange, I know. Of the reach weapons, the Glaive is probably the best.
I assuming you are not counting the spiked chain? It is one of the few exotic weapons actually worth the feat to use.
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Heath, given that there are a lot of warrior types in this group as you say, I’d put it down to a matter of style.
Yep, it’s generally accepted that a 2H fighter can do more damage than a 2W fighter, but consider Runzyl and Lightbringer from the Eberron game – while R is running ahead killing things left and right with his double weapon, poor old LB is lumbering along up the back, lucky if he gets to attack something, never mind the increased damage.
In another game I have a fighter who is exactly your style (b. sword, shield, power attack, cleave) and it suits me fine, even though I accept I would do more damage with say a greatsword – I like the extra AC from the shield, and while I probably will eventually be able to afford one of those flying shields, this character would be buggered if he’d be seen dead with a shield flying around beside him!
It might be worth seeing what the other warriors in the group are doing; if, for example, the marshal decides to go sword and board and the ranger is doing 2WF, then it might be good to have a two handed and/or reach weapon as a point of difference.
Personally, I kinda like the sound of that feat mentioned by someone above which lets you use a reach weapon up close and personal – that with a glaive or some such would look kinda cool…
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There are three primary styles available.
Two handed
Two weapon
weapon/shield
Each has advantages:
Two handed weapons have the highest damage available, allowing you to kill things dead
Two weapon gets the most attacks per round, allowing you to engage the most targets
Weapon/shield has the best AC, reducing the damage you take
Each has drawbacks:
Two handed basically requires power attack for damage output, making your secondary attacks into effectively nothing. Also, there is the issue of having to guess how much power attack you can afford. Taking a -5 to hit for +10 damage is fine, if you are reasonably certain of connecting.
Two weapon is expensive, in terms of both feats, and cash. It is also consistently less accurate then other attacks. It also requires a very high dex, which limits your AC from armor (until you can afford decent mithril)
Weapon/shield has cost issues as well, since you are enchanting the shield, and to get the most milage out of it, you will also need some secondary feats (improved shield bash, etc)
SPECIAL NOTE: Hybrid styles
There are a lot of ways to hybridize the possible styles. For example, a bastard sword/shield fighter can forgo the shield and use the sword two handed for some extra damage. Or a double weapon fighter can use 1 end as a two handed weapon.
This is generally very feat intensive, but you get extra milage out of weapon focus/specialization, etc since you always use the same weapon.
Counterpoints:
Two handed style has the worst AC of the bunch, and does the most damage, but with very few attacks. Everything after your first swing is dangerously close to missing already. Also, being able to hit for oodles of damage screams hit me, and you don't have the AC to back it up, so you better kill and do it quickly.
Two weapon has a huge bevy of additional feats out there, the more places you look the more you find. two weapon defense, two weapon rend, pounce, (the one that lets you take AoO with both weapons), etc. Again, very feat expensive, but lets you do good things
Shield is the simplest style, and it lets you grab some extra defenses. It also lets you pass those defenses around easier. Have a shield with fire resistance 10? you can hand it off to someone else who needs it for a certain fight.
Final thoughts:
Two handed - Power attack, cleave, great cleave, and anything that lets you hit more often are your friends (think bonuses to hit like weapon focus and bonus actions like haste.
Two weapon - two weapon defense, two weapon rend, etc for feats, since you need a high dex, weapon finesse may be helpful, weapons with high critical frequency (since you will be rolling to hit a lot)
Shield - improved shield bash, shield specialization, dodge (for even more AC). Also, magic items that help you build AC, or avoid attacks all together so you become indomitible. Also Lightning reflexes and iron will will help you avoid the nasty spells that will come your way.
However, a halberd is not a reach weapon by the RAW. Strange, I know. Of the reach weapons, the Glaive is probably the best.I assuming you are not counting the spiked chain? It is one of the few exotic weapons actually worth the feat to use.
You are correct. I was strictly talking about polearms in terms of reach weapons. Of those, the glaive is arguably the best. To be honest, I don't usually give the spiked chain much thought. I don't believe there was any precedent for it in previous editions, and it doesn't fit well with my concept of D&D (not that innovations are bad, I just don't see it as an innovation). But I know some people do like it and for those who do, that's fine for them.
And, somewhat on topic, I found the Earthbreaker from the RoTRL Player's Guide to be a fairly attractive alternative to the greatsword, which is a welcome innovation in my book.
You can always dual-wield bastard swords and still use Power attack. Just an additional -2 to hit for off-handing a non-light weapon.
Good luck - and great write-ups everyone!
Game on!
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Thanks, guys! I think I'll stick with what I know and love--the bastard sword. I'll try the other combos sometime.
Probably the single best weapon choice in the game for a fighter. In exchange for your bonus feat at level one (consumed by exotic weapon proficiency) You gain access to a weapon with good damage and a 19+ critical that can be used 1 or 2 handed.
It slots well with either a light weapon in your off hand, or a shield.
Which means that depending on how many feats you want to burn, and what you dex score turns out to be, you can actually cover all 3 main fighting styles.
You do loose out on the synergy of 1 weapon for focus/specialization/improved critical, and you can't make use of a really high dex (required for the better TWF feats) with weapon finesse, but otherwise:
Power attack and exotic weapon prof at 1
Improved Shield Bash at 2
Two Weapon fighting at 3
Cleave at 4
Weapon Focus at 6
Weapon specialization and improved critical at 8
improved two weapon fighting at 9
and so on (notice I only used SRD feats, there are better choices in the Splat books)
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You can always dual-wield bastard swords and still use Power attack. Just an additional -2 to hit for off-handing a non-light weapon.
Good luck - and great write-ups everyone!
Game on!
Feat "Over-sized Two-weapon fighting" lets you use 1 handed weapons in your offhand without additional penalty. It's on pg. 111 of Complete Adventurer.
Also Two-Weapon Fighting can be used with a shield bash as part of a full attack I believe...and Over-size twf works with heavy shields :)
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However, a halberd is not a reach weapon by the RAW. Strange, I know. Of the reach weapons, the Glaive is probably the best.I assuming you are not counting the spiked chain? It is one of the few exotic weapons actually worth the feat to use.
Unfortunately, it's not as much fun to use anymore, since everyone and their dog is using the damn spiked chain.
Probably the single best weapon choice in the game for a fighter. In exchange for your bonus feat at level one (consumed by exotic weapon proficiency) You gain access to a weapon with good damage and a 19+ critical that can be used 1 or 2 handed.
It slots well with either a light weapon in your off hand, or a shield.
Umm... No. The Bastard sword is a terrible weapon full stop. For a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency [EWP]), you get an increase of a whole ONE SINGLE POINT of damage over a Longsword.
There is no way at all that a feat is worth a single point of damage (That is even worse than Weapon Specialisation [which is one of the weaker feats]). Everything you suggest to do with a Bastard Sword, you can do with a Longsword, and use that feat for something else instead.
If you are going to use a feat on EWP, you are much better off going with a dwarf, and using a Dwarven Waraxe instead (if you really want to the d10 damage).
Of course, this is only taking into account mechanics. If you want to use a Bastard Sword for flavor etc, then that's fine, but it doesn't change the raw numbers.
The Bastard sword is a terrible weapon full stop. For a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency [EWP]), you get an increase of a whole ONE SINGLE POINT of damage over a Longsword.
Mathematically speaking, Mevers is quite correct--although I should mention that nearly everyone in my game has a bastard sword (although it gives little mechanical advantage, I give 'em breaks on role-playing because our homebrew campaign-world NPCs perceive bastard sword wielders as being "more heroic" than people with longswords or rapiers).
Dwarves have weapon familiarity, which gives them access to the Dwarven Waraxe without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, you don't have to spend a feat to use a bastard sword. You can use it two handed (which is good for power attack anyway).
Umm... No. The Bastard sword is a terrible weapon full stop. For a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency [EWP]), you get an increase of a whole ONE SINGLE POINT of damage over a Longsword.
There is no way at all that a feat is worth a single point of damage (That is even worse than Weapon Specialisation [which is one of the weaker feats]). Everything you suggest to do with a Bastard Sword, you can do with a Longsword, and use that feat for something else instead.
If you are going to use a feat on EWP, you are much better off going with a dwarf, and using a Dwarven Waraxe instead (if you really want to the d10 damage).
Of course, this is only taking into account mechanics. If you want to use a Bastard Sword for flavor etc, then that's fine, but it doesn't change the raw numbers.
It all depends on what type of fighter you want and the class/feat choices you make.
Two-Handed Weapon - can do the most damage per blow (especially with Power Attack), but has few attacks and relatively poor AC (until an animated shield becomes affordable)
Two-Weapon - can have the most attacks, but damage per blow is only so-so and it's very feat intensive; high Dex requirements usually result in decent AC, but can limit damage as Str lags
Weapon and Shield - decent damage and good AC, but few attacks
There can be overlap between the categories. Double weapons can be used with either two-handed or two-weapon styles. Improved Shield Bash and Two-Weapon Fighting lets the fighter attack with two weapons and gain the benefit of a shield. Weapon Style feats such as Axespike (Races of Stone), Shielded Axe (Races of Stone), and Spinning Halberd (Complete Warrior) can blur the lines between the styles.
Even within the categories, there can be differences. A greataxe wielder with Power Attack, Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), and Combat Brute (Complete Warrior) will be different than a polearm/spiked chain wielder with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Power Attack. A dwarf fighter/barbarian (Whirling Frenzy variant)/tempest with Power Attack, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer), and Two-Weapon Pounce (Player's Handbook II) is different than an elf scout/dervish (Slashing Blades with longsword instead of scimitar)/tempest with Ellusive Target (Complete Warrior) and Improved Trip or a human barbarian (Bear Totem)/fighter/bear warrior with Bear Fang (Complete Warrior) and Extend Rage (Complete Warrior). A weapon and shield fighter who goes after Blood-Spiked Charger (Player's Handbook II), Improved Shield Bash, and Two-Weapon Fighting is different than one who concentrates mostly on his one-handed weapon and takes Shield Specialization, Active Shield Defense, and Shield Ward (all Player's Handbook II).