I'm working on a homebrew low-magic campaign set in Europe and the Americas circa 16th century. I wanted to keep the choices of gods simple to match the setting...Europeans have Christianity, in the Americas there would be Meso-American pantheon(s) - one of the things I thought about doing was allowing Christian clerics to be of any alignment despite their professed alignment - in the vein of how Eberron handles alignment. I would set the organization of the European church itself to be Lawful Neutral, with maybe individual brotherhoods having their own differing internal alignment, Lawful Good or/Evil.
I'm uncertain how to handle the Domains. Just leave them up for grabs? Limit them to certain sects/brotherhoods? Any thoughts.
Also, I'm not fully fleshed out on the low-magicness of the campaign. I believe there's a discussion elsewhere on the boards about that. I just don't want glowing swords around every corner, and stuff like mass teleport and planar travel don't gibe too well with what I envision.
I'd appreciate any thoughts on the above.
Domains for Christian Clerics is going to be hard to limit. Arguments can be made for any all with He is all powerful and all knowing. So the only thing you can do is base it on the brotherhood/sect. If any of your players give you in flak counter with “Yes God is all powerful and should allow for any domain but in your sect you focus in on these aspects of God thus you get those domains.” Any who follow the Native American pantheons should be a lot easier because these gods should be detailed out in some version of Dieties and Demigods.
As far as the low magic here is the link to the thread (if someone else can make it neater I would appreciate it) [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/anyoneOutThereRunningLowerMagicGamesHowDoYouDoItWithDD]
On it you will find lots of info and advice. Take what you want disregard the rest.
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Very interesting!
I agree with the above that under any of the above religions, a follower of their "one god" would arguably have access to all domains. What if you made each cleric pick a patron saint and the domains flow from that choice?
Thus, the cleric serves God, but in the vein/guise of that Saint's direction.
For example, St. Christopher is the patron saint of travelers - so the Travel domain would be an obvious choice.
Very interesting!
I agree with the above that under any of the above religions, a follower of their "one god" would arguably have access to all domains. What if you made each cleric pick a patron saint and the domains flow from that choice?
Thus, the cleric serves God, but in the vein/guise of that Saint's direction.
For example, St. Christopher is the patron saint of travelers - so the Travel domain would be an obvious choice.
+1 great idea. As the DM, make sure to have a list of saints handy though. Would Inquisitioners be inherently evil? Or only the ones who committed torture, etc?
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You might consider parsing the Domains out amongst the various Christian saints. It is, after all, what Catholics did at the time and still do. Clerics will worship God, but venerate their patron saint. They will live by the example of their Patron saint and pray to the saint to intercede on their behalf to God (i.e. pray to saint for spells).
Here is a list of a whole buncha Patron saints.
***EDIT*** D'oh... Too slow I guess. But I provided links, so THERE! : P
Thanks Kuthax, I found this low-magic discussion really helpful.
And Eyebite...LOVE the patron saint idea! Thanks Cosmo for the uber handy listy.
Would Inquisitioners be inherently evil? Or only the ones who committed torture, etc?
I would say they would be inherently evil...some in delusional denial, others embracing the madness.
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+1 great idea. As the DM, make sure to have a list of saints handy though. Would Inquisitioners be inherently evil? Or only the ones who committed torture, etc?
Yeah, having a list of saints would be an invaluable resource.
Regarding the alignment of the Inquisition, think about this: He's running a historical setting BUT we have MAGIC to deal with now. With spells like zone of truth, detect evil, and the like, I think we can assume most Inquisition members are Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral because they would have tools at their disposal to allow them to know FOR SURE who was evil and who wasn't. No torture or morally questionable acts necessary.
Keep this in mind for your setting. When you bring magic into the mix, history is very likely to change from the way we know it today.
I started a thread a month or so back about Gods domains. There was some neat ideas in there. I remember a really cool one about making the holy trinity into 3 areas of worship. There to find the thread. I believe the title is Christian God's Domains?.
Fizz
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I'll chime in on the patron saints idea. There was an awesome historical fantasy computer RPG called Darklands back in the early 90's that had an extensive saint based divine magic system. I loved that game. If you can find resources from this game it might even help you set up your domains.
Keep this in mind for your setting. When you bring magic into the mix, history is very likely to change from the way we know it today.
Point taken. As I'm planning it, magic itself is a new abberation tied to a twist in the discovery of the New World...so the official stance of The Church is what one would expect. Actual clerics who have their prayer/spells happen would be problematic for church hierarchy. And I would imagine that if they went against the church's interests openly their miracles would be retro-labeled witchcraft in a blink.
I will have to consider the effect on history and historical attitudes. thanks.
...an awesome historical fantasy computer RPG called Darklands.
Thanks, I'll have to google that.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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This sounds very interesting. Keep us posted as to how it goes.
As for the Inquisitors, I like the idea that zone of truth and similar spells read the intention of the specific inquisitor. If the inquisitor gets off on torture and burning people at the stake, he could be read as evil. If the inquisitor in question actually believes he is doing god's work and fighting against evil, he could be read as good.
And there is no rule that the "read" has to be the same every time. The same inquisitor's alignment could be read differently based on their actions at the time. Or, at best, as some kind of clouded lawful neutral.
Might be a good way to explore your PCs' subjective concepts of good and evil.
Another video game (I know, I know, but in its defense it's a game that has a setting stronger than its gameplay elements) that you might want to read about is Lionheart. It's an RPG set in the early Renaissance after magic makes a return. The Inquisition labels all "ungodly" magic users (though they themselves use "Godly" magic) as enemies of the church and goes after Wielders (practitioners of elemental and Pagan magic that aren't evil) and Dark Wielders (practitioners of diabolical magic) alike. GameBanshee has an entire section on it, including setting information and a walkthrough of the overarching plot. It could be another good resource for your game.
This sounds like an interesting concept and I would love to hear more information on it when you've got everything figured out.
I'm going to have to say that God's alignment would be good - whether you make it LG, NG, or CG, but definitely good. All the holy texts would be saying things like God is good, God is just, God is love, etc. Even the "evil" clerics, like Torquemada, would be at least superficially adhering to the same dogma. I don't see how in dnd terms you could have evil clerics worshipping an inherently good god although this is certainly possible in real life.
Maybe you could reconcile it by having a counter-god, possibly a Satan, who could be duping them into thinking they are worshipping the true God, but is instead granting them their powers. This could accomodate those who outright want to be evil and gives your good clerics a foil other than those pagans.
I also support the patron Saint concept to allow for flavor and rivalry in the clergy - Jesuits vs. Franciscans, etc. I think some domains would not be accessable, such as trickery and evil.
Using the saints for Domain is a good one, but the Brotherhoods also had some strict rules and concepts for their members. Praying to a saint wasn’t restricted to followers of that saint. For example, praying to Saint Benedict was not restricted to Benedictine Monks, nor was praying to St. Augustus limited to the Augustine order. Praying to a saint was more situational, with the saint’s intervention being commensurate the problem encountered. The orders themselves, however, had strict focuses on their works.
In the above example, from Wickipedia:
“Benedict's concerns were the needs of monks in a community environment: namely, to establish due order; to foster an understanding of the relational nature of human beings; and to provide a spiritual father to support and strengthen the individual's ascetic effort and the spiritual growth that is required for the fulfillment of the human vocation, Divinization.”
Whereas Brothers of Christian Instruction of St. Gabriel:
“The order's main concern is Christian education, especially for the poor, orphans and the physically challenged.”
How you would interpret these for Domains would be your thing. Also remember, there are orders of nuns who frequently have the same focus as the male orders, so there could be a great deal of overlap I would recommend limiting the number of orders to save yourself a lot of work.
In addition, there’s also the problem with the Roman Catholic Church vs. the English Anglican Church. That’s an interesting one.
As far as someone’s mention of alignment, the majority of Inquisitors have been shown by history to be right nasty bastiches, and the church turned the inquisitions from its original intent into a property stealing, life destroying, power grubbing, political game-playing machine, so the presumption that they’re all Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral seems rather ludicrous. The majority of the hierarchy of the church of the time was occupied by political appointees and younger son relatives of power connected nobles. They had no monopoly on goodness of any kind and some of them only gave a nod to Lawfulness as a tool for self-preservation and advancement. Lawful Evil, True Neutral and even Neutral Evil would be just as likely, in my estimation.
Here’s a quick link to Wikipedia, which will give a list of all the catholic orders from which you can get a separate link to see what they’re about. Have fun.
Catholic Orders.
Maybe just for simplicity's sake you could assume the one true God to be of neutral alignment, thus allowing worshippers to be of any alignment as none would be more than one step away on the graph. Granted, most clergy are going to be good.
I see many prestige classes fitting in to your campaign - evangelist, inquisitor among others.
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Damn Lawgiver, that is a good idea.
I'll just throw this out there (Caution, it will require a lot of work up) what if each order reveres a set a Saints above all others - i.e. the ones that particular order most commonly reveres and prays to.
What if the cleric of that particular order could choose one of these saints per day (say...each order has 3 "patron" saints) and pray to that saint for guidance based on the situation that cleric was facing/expecting to face. What I'm imagining is akin to the binder class - so each saint would be like a vestige and could grant similar abilities. (This would be in lieu of that cleric receiving a domain ability/power.)
Yeah yeah, the mechanics are a little rough. But I'm sure you all can help to clean it up.
I don't see how in dnd terms you could have evil clerics worshipping an inherently good god although this is certainly possible in real life.
I'm planning to relax the alignment requirements, to reflect the more gray terms of the world. I imagine a distinction between faithfulness to God and faithfulness to the governing body of the earthly organization, with the cleric's powers coming from devotion to their god that is - either the transcendent being or the terrestrial power of the historic church.
Looney?
Using the saints for Domain is a good one, but the Brotherhoods also had some strict rules and concepts for their members. ...I would recommend limiting the number of orders to save yourself a lot of work.
Yeah, I'm beginning to see how out of hand this side of such a simple idea can become.
In addition, there’s also the problem with the Roman Catholic Church vs. the English Anglican Church. That’s an interesting one.
Yikes...could lead to some strained moments despite alignments, when say a LG cleric from one church meets LG cleric from the other. Interesting indeed.
As far as someone’s mention of alignment, the majority of Inquisitors have been shown by history to be right nasty bastiches, and the church turned the inquisitions from its original intent into a property stealing, life destroying, power grubbing, political game-playing machine, so the presumption that they’re all Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral seems rather ludicrous. The majority of the hierarchy of the church of the time was occupied by political appointees and younger son relatives of power connected nobles. They...
True 'dat. Precisely what I was thinking about the Inquisitors.
What I'm imagining is akin to the binder class.
Totally clueless on the binder class. I'll have to look that up.
In addition, there’s also the problem with the Roman Catholic Church vs. the English Anglican Church. That’s an interesting one.
Not to mention other protestant churches, Lutherans, Calvinists and so forth. And Counter-reformation of Catholic church. All this while Eastern orthodox church was around (and not in particularly friendly terms with Catholic church).
16th century was rather explosive time for Christianity in Europe...About the Inquisition, I don't know what they were doing at that time...after all, at some point they actually did realize that confessions given under torture might not be reliable.
What where the Ottomans doing in the 16th century? Could be another element of the campaign.
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On clerics, perhaps you could have each Church (major religion not the building) get one or two domains, and each saint get one or two, so depending on the Church AND the order you get the domains a cleric can choose from. May not represent accurately the historical orders, as I am not certain there were Benedictine Lutherans, but it works mechanically.
The one true christian god is most deffinetly LG, based on what I know of scriptures. Satan is LE. The inquisition ranges from NG to CG (trying to do good, but breaking the rules to get there), though the few sick individuals who chose to torture for fun and collecting power were probably LE.
Oh, and don't forget the Jews, and the Muslims of the time either. Old testament god deffinetly gets a Retribution domain.
Not sure where you want the campaign to go, but it might make it a bit more compelling to have a divergent history. Something as simple as Columbus set out for China, and well, found it. Remove the americas, and rewrite the history from that point.
You might be better off not using core d20 in this sort of campaign.
7th Sea might work, if you advance the technology level. Ars Magica has a good take on magic in semi-historical Europe; it's based around the 13th Century, but could be adapted to the 16th Century with some work. If you want to keep the d20 rules set, you may want to use Iron Kingdoms as the basis.
Or you could pick up d20 Modern, and adapt it to an earlier period.
About the Inquisition, I don't know what they were doing at that time
My recollection is that the infamous Torquemada came into power in the late 1400’s (around 1480-1485?) so setting the game in the 1500’s (16th Century) would have the Inquisitions really getting into the historical swing of horrors we’ve all come to know and love.
What where the Ottomans doing in the 16th century? Could be another element of the campaign.
The following is from Wickepedia (again)
"The Ottoman Empire (1299 to 1922), was an ethnically diverse Turkish ruled state which, at the height of its power (16th – 17th centuries), spanned three continents, controlling much of Southeastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, stretching from the Strait of Gibraltar (and in 1553 the Atlantic coast of North Africa beyond Gibraltar) in the west to the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf in the east, from the edge of Austria, Slovakia and parts of Ukraine in the north to Sudan, Eritrea and Yemen in the south. The lands controlled by the Ottoman state were collectively referred to as Turkey. The Ottomans saw themselves as the rulers of a "Universal Empire" and heirs to both Roman and Islamic traditions, hence a "unification of cultures". With Istanbul (or Constantinople) as its capital, the Ottoman Empire was in some respects an Islamic successor to earlier Mediterranean empires — namely the Roman and Byzantine empires.
The empire was at the center of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries. In the course of its lifespan, it undertook, more than once, programs of both Islamization and modernization (reform), blurring the difference between the West and the East. The golden age of the Ottoman Empire was during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent in the 16th Century. This could be observed in many different fields, such as the architectural masterpieces of Koca Mimar Sinan Ağa, and the domination of the Mediterranean Sea by the Ottoman navy, led by Barbarossa Hayreddin Pasha. The Ottoman Empire reached its territorial peak in the 17th century. It developed its own distinctive culture, from a diverse system of Millets to a multi-ethnic state (see Ottomanism); which was influential in both Europe and the Muslim lands." (emphasis added)
This could make for some really juicy plot twists...hmmmmm, tasty.
I had a nasty little thought here…are you going to be getting into the Undead? If a party disturbs a tribal burial ground and the sprits get aroused for retribution, are you going to have a separate Order for Excorcists, or just make that a Domain? That one aspect of the game could turn into a real can of worms if not handled very carefully. Just a thought…
Something as simple as Columbus set out for China, and well, found it. Remove the americas, and rewrite the history from that point.
Actually, this all emerged from a series of short stories I've been peddling around lately. The initial event of this campaign is Columbus crossing the Atlantic as normal, but finding something quite different than a few island tribes ripe for conquest. This initial event looses arcane forces into the world and wackiness ensues...
I plan to keep most of the action in this alternate New World - but adventures in Europe aren't out of the question.
Or you could pick up d20 Modern, and adapt it to an earlier period.
Actually, after reading some of the thoughts on low-magic settings elsewhere on this board I've started looking into "d20 Past" as a possible system. I've been pretty limited to d&d though...I'll know better once I've read more on it. I'll look into Iron Kingdoms while I'm at it.
If a party disturbs a tribal burial ground and the sprits get aroused for retribution...
Nasty thought indeed, considering how the bodies piled up during Aztec sacrifices...that could become a zombie invasion of apocalyptic proportions. Exorcism domain bears some thought.