Its always interesting to see how other people's experiences with the game vary from my own, which is one of the reasons I love reading these boards.
A few thoughts.
As far as finding rare magic items or spells, by this point the PCs have already run into a mercane . . . mercane's who "point" is to be a creature that sells expensive and rare magic. Finding another one in the Abyss, especially given that the PCs have gone to several Abyssal settlements at this point.
About the ending . . . part of what happened has to do with finding out what Shami-Amourae might know about Demogorgon and his weaknessess, but I beleive its also pretty significant that due to the gaping hole in the "roof" of the planar level, and the new "Lake Styx" there, the PCs have come face to face with Charon.
In other words, Demogorgon's contingency for dealing with anyone freeing Shami-amourae may have led to a shortcut in utilizing her information, no matter how basic that information might have been.
Oh, not even mentioning the difficulty of casting a freedom spell ( scroll or not ) if there is no high-level UMD user, and your wizard is a specialist who has foresworn Abjuration as a school.... Or buying a scroll/acess to it, in a highly suspicious world/setting, where there _will_be questions as to what this spell is going to be needed for (much like the knowledge for building a nuclear bomb, this spell is something I would consider not easily traded or taught by those in the know)
The book of infinite spells allows anyone to cast the freedom spell.
Creative Director
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In fact... one fancy way of retconning the whole thing is to say that Malcanthet knew about the Styx trap over Shami's prison, and knew that if the PCs freed her that the trap would go off and would in so doing rile up Charon who then becomes another ally against Demogorgon, in which case the type of information the PCs get from Shami isn't nearly as important as the fact that they kind of forced Charon to join their side by revealing Demogorgon's tampering with the river Styx.
Kind of convoluted, but it's the way Malcanthet thinks, so it works out pretty well.
In any event, knowledge that Demogorgon's two personalities are at odds is actually some pretty key information that the PCs can use in the last adventure. And while this information has never been treated as a secret in Demogorgon's recent history, it is actaully a secret from most in-game NPCs. It's not common knowledge, and the fact that Shami knows about it and can tell the PCs is in fact the "big secret." Telling them to gather an army and talk to Iggwilv is not the secret; it's just a stepping stone/adventure hook to the next adventure.
Again, how this information about Demogorgon's personalities helps the PCs will be revealed in the last adventure. If they DON'T learn this information from Shami Amourae, they'll be at a disadvantage in "Prince of Demons" when the final showdown comes along.
In fact... one fancy way of retconning the whole thing is to say that Malcanthet knew about the Styx trap over Shami's prison, and knew that if the PCs freed her that the trap would go off and would in so doing rile up Charon who then becomes another ally against Demogorgon, in which case the type of information the PCs get from Shami isn't nearly as important as the fact that they kind of forced Charon to join their side by revealing Demogorgon's tampering with the river Styx.
Kind of convoluted, but it's the way Malcanthet thinks, so it works out pretty well.
In any event, knowledge that Demogorgon's two personalities are at odds is actually some pretty key information that the PCs can use in the last adventure. And while this information has never been treated as a secret in Demogorgon's recent history, it is actaully a secret from most in-game NPCs. It's not common knowledge, and the fact that Shami knows about it and can tell the PCs is in fact the "big secret." Telling them to gather an army and talk to Iggwilv is not the secret; it's just a stepping stone/adventure hook to the next adventure.
Again, how this information about Demogorgon's personalities helps the PCs will be revealed in the last adventure. If they DON'T learn this information from Shami Amourae, they'll be at a disadvantage in "Prince of Demons" when the final showdown comes along.
Well that information about Charon is not really to be gleaned from the adventure itself, nor is any possible use of it in the final episode of the STAP - and given that some of my players are playing the "Expedition to the Spiderwebs" atm, or rather are in the final stretch of that, knowledge of Demogorgon and his "oddities" is pretty much "present" at the moment (especially since it is basically the entire first paragraph of his description in the FC-1, and noted on the "Demogorgon-Lore" list, as well...). Very hard for players to feel satisfaction from acquiring knowledge, they as players always/already had. And the players in my group are very very much focused on gathering information and doing research on their opposition, using bardic lore and actually spending time on research and resources such as tomes, library access and sages..... and that is not a really uncommon tactic, so basically, IMHO players who are not focused on combat but engage in some research, will find the "final reward" very much underwhelming, sorry to say.
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Creative Director
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Well that information about Charon is not really to be gleaned from the adventure itself, nor is any possible use of it in the final episode of the STAP - and given that some of my players are playing the "Expedition to the Spiderwebs" atm, or rather are in the final stretch of that, knowledge of Demogorgon and his "oddities" is pretty much "present" at the moment (especially since it is basically the entire first paragraph of his description in the FC-1, and noted on the "Demogorgon-Lore" list, as well...). Very hard for players to feel satisfaction from acquiring knowledge, they as players always/already had. And the...
I do agree... and had I more time I would have loved to work something out with the secret to make it seem more important... but then again, FC1 isn't really intended for player's eyes. And you've hit upon one of the reasons I really dislike the knowledge check sections for monsters, since it kind of takes control out of the DM's hands on what he wants to reveal to the PCs. Sure... the DM can decide in the end what to tell the PCs... but having it listed on a chart kind of implies that he can't...
Anyway... hopefully it's just a minor bump in the enjoyment of the Savage Tide AP!
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I do agree... and had I more time I would have loved to work something out with the secret to make it seem more important... but then again, FC1 isn't really intended for player's eyes. And you've hit upon one of the reasons I really dislike the knowledge check sections for monsters, since it kind of takes control out of the DM's hands on what he wants to reveal to the PCs. Sure... the DM can decide in the end what to tell the PCs... but having it listed on a chart kind of implies that he can't...
Hmmm...
I guess I misread the "secret" or perhaps I was filling in "DM knowledge" into "revealed to PC knowledge", but...
Isn't the "secret" not that Demogorgon is of two-minds, and that he often works against himself (FC-1 info) but he is actively seeking to DESTROY his other self! To me that was pretty unexpected. I've always felt the demogorgon duality was more like a dysfunctional marriage (the love-hate relationship): The wife wants new clothes, but the husband controls the finances, so she starts a small fire in the bedroom that burns her old clothes (and that awful old dresser from *his* mother) so now he must buy her new clothes and a new dresser. But when the secret is revealed that he is plotting to have her killed (thus he has been diverting funds to s swiss account) while the fire was her attempt to have him killed is huge!
Hmmm...
I guess I misread the "secret" or perhaps I was filling in "DM knowledge" into "revealed to PC knowledge", but...
Isn't the "secret" not that Demogorgon is of two-minds, and that he often works against himself (FC-1 info) but he is actively seeking to DESTROY his other self! To me that was pretty unexpected. I've always felt the demogorgon duality was more like a dysfunctional marriage (the love-hate relationship): The wife wants new clothes, but the husband controls the finances, so she starts a small fire in the bedroom that burns her old clothes (and that awful old dresser from *his* mother) so now he must buy her new clothes and a new dresser. But when the secret is revealed that he is plotting to have her killed (thus he has been diverting funds to s swiss account) while the fire was her attempt to have him killed is huge!
hmm, no, I (speaking for myself only) have always understood his "duality" as a massive internal rivalry, something he cannot really get rid off without killing himself, but that never including him not trying.
@james Jacob
Well, given the average age of my group ( late twenties ) and the fact that at least 2 others in it GM themselves, the idea of "GM only material" is rather quaint. They usually comensate for their RL knowledge with taking high ranks in knowledge skills, but the knowledge is always there at the back of everyone's min, ticking. And, in a way, that also increaes the fun - knowing just about who/what one is going to face and feeling the anticipation.... I was sorely tempted to have them run into a (lesser) avatar of Demogorgon sometime earlier, but decided it would spoil the build-up too much..
I think we might be mixing what we know from the outline and from the text of adventures with what is actually commonly known about Demogorgon. Honestly, a lot of this information is recent, new information.
In 1st and 2nd edition, Demogorgon was Demogorgon. No split personality, no separate names for the different heads as far as I can remember.
In 3rd edition, the first mention of the separate personalities was in Bastion of Broken Souls where we find out, as a big secret that Demogorgon has two personalities, and that one is secretly trying to use the Bastion of Unborn Souls to help him if he kills the other.
The head that was plotting against the other one was Aameul.
In the Book of Vile Darkness, published later the same year as Bastion of Broken Souls, it is mentioned that Demogorgon has two personalities, and that Aameul dreams of killing Hethradiah somehow, but that Hethradiah "is too concerned with the effects such a separation would have on all of his dread accomplishments to seriously consider the notion of living alone." It also mentions that Aameul's plots against Hethradiah, and the fact that there are two personalities, are secret. (Book of Vile Darkness, page 127)
The Fiendish Codex Volume I mentioned the individual names of the personalities, but says only, "Each is unable to control the other, nor could one slay the other without also perishing." (Fiendish Codex Volume I, page 62)
The "Demogorgon Lore" section, if you get a result of 45 (!) on your lore check, only says that Demogorgon has two personalities, and that they don't always get along, but that they usually grant Demogorgon a tactical advantage.
So with a 45 on a lore check, you get that he has two personalities, and that they might squable once in a while. No individual names, specific plots, or even a mention of the fact that they would consider actively plotting to kill the other.
So, what this means is, if the PCs played through Bastion of Broken Souls, they might know that Aameul tried to kill Hethradiah by allying with Ashardalon. If the PCs made a DC 45 knowledge check, they might know that Demogorgon has two personalities that sometimes don't get along.
What is a secret is that Hethradiah, the one that doesn't want to risk plotting against Aameul, has finally decided to do so. This would be a change from previous courses of action. The difference now is that not only is one trying to kill the other, and the other is trying to maintain the status quo, but that both are actively trying to kill, or at least subsume, the other. This goes beyond "not getting along" into actively working against one another, and its something that could actually be very important to know.
In fact, if you want to make this information more valuable, and you do think they know too much about Demogorgon, make sure they "know" what it says in the Book of Vile Darkness, that Hethradiah doesn't want to make waves and risk his position by acting on Aameul.
Even if the players (not the PCs) know this information about Demogorgon, their characters do not. So yes, the information is useless, if you routinely let your players metagame their way through a campaign.
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Leaving aside the metagame knowledge thing (I happen to agree that just because the players may know this, it should still be a big revelation to the characters … but lets not get too far into that argument) about Dem’s split personality, there is another big thing that Shami tells them, that to my knowledge has not been previously revealed (unless its mentioned in the Demonomican article, which I haven’t yet read): that
Without rehashing too much, just want to point out to the OP that freedom is kind of the obvious spell to try out first if you're trying to free a being from some sort of high-level imprisonment effect. Sure, you can limit its availability in your campaign, or make its obtainment the focus of a major side quest, if that works better for your campaign. In a standard GH/FR campaign, though, if PCs have the capability to plane-hop the way they've been doing, it's a quick trip to go visit Tenser or whatshisface (drawing a blank on the head of the Harpers), or to hit Sigil or some other extraplanar entrepot. Beg, borrow, or steal, it won't cost them that much to get ahold of this spell. And if it's fairly easy for them, it's within the realm of possibility for others.
Honestly, I get a little sick of the "this adventure is irreparably screwed up" postings. All of the stuff in Dungeon has flaws, but on the whole it's pretty good and works for a standard campaign with minimal adaptation. It's usually good enough to go on. If something stretches your credulity or you think it doesn't work that well, it's no problem to discuss on the boards. If you look through the archives, you'll see I've done this in several spots for various parts of AoW. But be prepared to accept people's constructive suggestions for work-arounds. And maybe if you hit upon an idea you think works better, share it with everyone. The point is, "this adventure sucks" is not constructive criticism and isn't helpful for others on the boards. If you think that, there's no reason to harp on it, or to try to prove that objectively it does suck. "This adventure could be improved by . . . " or "There are some things I don't like about this adventure and I'd rather substitute . . ." are helpful criticisms that will allow the editors/authors to improve and fellow DMs to consider potential problems with a module and come up with solutions. If you don't have anything to suggest and need help from others, it's easy enough to phrase your query in a way that stimulates constructive, rather than defensive, responses.
Sorry for the rant--not intended as personal criticism of anyone, just as a reminder of what kinds of posts are helpful and which kinds of posts are merely venting and/or unnecessarily adversarial.
And, KnightErrant--thanks for the clarification on who should know what about the Big D--this kind of research is very helpful.
Thanks, and you summed up what I've been trying to get across very well, and much better than I have been.
What is a secret is that Hethradiah, the one that doesn't want to risk plotting against Aameul, has finally decided to do so. This would be a change from previous courses of action. The difference now is that not only is one trying to kill the other, and the other is trying to maintain the status quo, but that both are actively trying to kill, or at least subsume, the other. This goes beyond "not getting along" into actively working against one another, and its something that could actually be very important to know.
In fact, if you want to make this information more valuable, and you do think they know too much about Demogorgon, make sure they "know" what it says in the Book of Vile Darkness, that Hethradiah doesn't want to make waves and risk his position by acting on Aameul.
Even if the players (not the PCs) know this information about Demogorgon, their characters do not. So yes, the information is useless, if you routinely let your players metagame their way through a campaign.
Yes, yes. The big reveal is very cool, and the fluff is very enjoyable. However, based on the data we have so far, the fact that Demogorgon has a split personality is not actually useful.
How are the PCs going to exploit the rivalry of Hethrediah and Aameul? They are going to acquire allies who will attack Demogorgon's realm, fragmenting her attention and drawing away her allies so that the PCs can deal the final blow.
How would the PCs handle attacking Demogorgon if they didn't know about her internal struggles? They'd probably acquire allies who would attack Demogorgon's realm, fragmenting her attention and drawing away her allies so that PCs can deal the final blow.
Now, I would hazard a guess that in "Enemy of My Enemy" the PCs will get a hefty bonus to Diplomacy checks to convince these allies to attack if they can reveal this specific information and demonstrate its Shami-Amourae pedigree. This remains useless, however, to parties that either have an optimized diplomancer or didn't bother with Diplomacy at all, since they will either pass or fail the check regardless. Furthermore, even if the bonus does make a difference in a few skill checks, it isn't like the players are going to feel the impact of the bonus, or suffer the lack of a bonus if they skip this adventure entirely.
James and Eric have assured us that not-yet-revealed stuff in the next two adventures will make the deal more palatable. Maybe so, but the players are still going to have to be satisfied with a plot token for more than one playing session before they get anything they actually want. Many will have to suppress their own PC's established character traits to make the deal and complete this adventure.
Without rehashing too much, just want to point out to the OP that freedom is kind of the obvious spell to try out first if you're trying to free a being from some sort of high-level imprisonment effect. Sure, you can limit its availability in your campaign, or make its obtainment the focus of a major side quest, if that works better for your campaign. In a standard GH/FR campaign, though, if PCs have the capability to plane-hop the way they've been doing, it's a quick trip to go visit Tenser or whatshisface (drawing a blank on the head of the Harpers), or to hit Sigil or some other extraplanar entrepot. Beg, borrow, or steal, it won't cost them that much to get ahold of this spell. And if it's fairly easy for them, it's within the realm of possibility for others.
Right, right. The DMG explicitly says you can go up to a epic-level NPC you've never met and get whatever scroll you want of the absolute-maximum-in-game level in exchange for some loose change, right? No, wait. It actually says the exact opposite; the purchasing guidelines are explicitly guidelines and not rules, and the DM is explicitly directed to restrict high-level spells regardless of what the formula says.
If you're throwing the players whatever they want on request, you might as well slave yourself to the custom item creation guidelines, too. The formula suggest a Sword of Continuous True Strike is 4000gp, and a few of those would make short work of Demogorgon.
Bottom line, they're still stuck with a side quest of some sort, and there's nothing inherently evocative or about casting Freedom off a spellbook that happened to once be owned by one of Shami-Amourae's old lackeys. It's a bit of a stretch to insist that it only works with the sympathetic magic of a former possession of a specific lackey who abandoned her to the well. Maybe it would make more sense if we knew more about this "Hadonis" who apparently couldn't be stirred to use his own book to save her, but unfortunately there isn't any more in the text at hand.
Honestly, I get a little sick of the "this adventure is irreparably screwed up" postings... The point is, "this adventure sucks" is not constructive criticism and isn't helpful for others on the boards. If you think that, there's no reason to harp on it, or to try to prove that objectively it does suck... If you don't have anything to suggest and need help from others, it's easy enough to phrase your query in a way that stimulates constructive, rather than defensive, responses.
Please post a single time in this thread that any poster said that the adventure "sucked" or was unsalvageable. Nobody did that. Please do not invent statements and claim that other people made them.
But be prepared to accept people's constructive suggestions for work-arounds.
There have been some constructive suggestions here. James and Eric have been particularly helpful, and while it is unfortunate that part of the adventure got cut during development, I am much more hopeful now than when I first posted the thread. I still believe forcing the PCs into a blatantly unfair deal that violates their characters' personalities is unreasonable for the DM, but if I understand correctly the next adventure will include workarounds for PC parties that refused to deal with Ahazu, even if that workaround is, "Come up with +20 extra on your Diplomacy checks, quick!" As long as the PCs can refuse to make the questionable deal without wrecking the adventure path, there is no railroad.
However, "Haha noob, the PCs can just buy Freedom at Magic-Mart, lol. Demon sacrifice is A-OK as long as you mean well."? Not helpful at all, and if I demonstrated a bit of frustration earlier in the thread, it's because I got a lot of that.
All better now, though. For now, anyway.
Kind of interesting that you take someone to task for a bit of hyperbole when it comes to saying the adventure "sucks," then you turn around and say that people:
1. Called you a noob.
2. Implied that you should have "magic marts" in your campaign.
3. Said that sacrificing beings to demons was acceptable.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with people's interpretations of how the imprisonment aspect of the Wells of Darkness can be reconciled to a character's concience, but please, don't make this adversarial when its not.
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Creative Director
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James and Eric have assured us that not-yet-revealed stuff in the next two adventures will make the deal more palatable. Maybe so, but the players are still going to have to be satisfied with a plot token for more than one playing session before they get anything they actually want. Many will have to suppress their own PC's established character traits to make the deal and complete this adventure.
I have a feeling that what IS revealed in the last two adventures won't satisfy you, alas; the themes set up in "Wells of Darkness," where the PCs have to ally with demons and other evil folks, are not unique to "Wells of Darkness." They existed in most of the previous adventures, and they'll certainly continue to feature prominently in the last two. It's one of the campaign's themes. Again, not for everyone, but judging from the reactions on a whole to Savage Tide, it seems to be a pretty popular choice for a campaign.
There are sections, in particular, in "Enemies of my Enemy" that could well make a deal with Ahazu to swap prisoners look tame.
Personally, I think that the moral questions/quandaries that this campaign hits the PCs with are great; it's one thing to just go through an adventrue attacking monsters and taking their stuff. Dealing with other situations (ethical, political, moral, romantic, etc.) is what makes the game a role-playing game. Otherwise, it's just a miniatures game, and they, while fun, are not what we produce adventures for in Dungeon.
In any event, adjusting the adventure as written so that it goes more smoothly with your players & campaign style is the whole point. It's not wrong to do so, it's expected.
.....
...>snip>The "Demogorgon Lore" section, if you get a result of 45 (!) on your lore check, only says that Demogorgon has two personalities, and that they don't always get along, but that they usually grant Demogorgon a tactical advantage.
So with a 45 on a lore check, you get that he has two personalities, and that they might squable once in a while. No individual names, specific plots, or even a mention of the fact that they would consider actively plotting to kill the other.
So, what this means is, if the PCs played...
As for the Lore check result of 45... first off, a wizard/bard/archivist (HoH)/whatever really 'into' lores and checking out the opposition will easily have 20+ skill ranks, + a whopping intelligence bonus ( say +6 ? +7 ? Does not sound infeasible to me ) + some boni from feats/prestige-class abilities + an item or two + other characters aiding him in research + possible circumstantial boni from using specific sources or a pretty good library (easier to find than an available scroll of "Freedom" to my mind ) and suddenly we are looking at actually required rolls of like 10+ or even less ? On characters with feats like "Gnomish Trivia" (RoS) which gives you the choice of the better of two rolls ? Sorry, that sounds, or rather to my experience is, all too common.
Adding to this - that is not actually the problem to my mind. The problem is "player satisfaction". Even if the characters get to know "something" they might not have known of their own ( and as KoboldLord pointed out, would likely tactically duplicate anyway ), the players aka, the guys/gals deriving enjoyment from the game, are the people who will be frustrated, because _they_ will have known all-along. They don't get some really wicked glance at knowledge that would possibly enable an entirely new strategy to defeat Big D...
No apocryphic detail from the past of him, that would point them to an unthought of and possibly potent ally. No hint as to a special time or event when Demogorgon would be vulnerable or less potent. Or a major weakness the old prince of Demons has carefully erased from almost all sources of knowledge of him - and which perhaps Shami Amourae being the sole existing being around who could verify it, which made him place her in the WOD.....
That would - in my mind- have proven a major "gain" from the adventure, adding something new, unexpected and imaginative to the lore of Demogorgon and given the players the feeling of "We found his Achilles heel", of enjoyable achievement. Getting to know "his heads/personalities are scheming against each other which might render him confused...." - that has the stale taste of hard tack bread... Or like Legolas needlessly re-explaining the master plan of the Alliance in LOTR-III to the (brain-dead ?) audience "A Distraction !"
And sorry, we all game for the enjoyment and fun, don't we ? If things do have to proceed and end the way originally planned in WoDarkness (nice pun, btw ), it won't be a fun, very original and satisfying instance of the STAP. At least for some.
But as JJ pointed out, one can (and probably will for this installment) rewrite the STAP-orginal adventure...
^^^ Good points I think. My players don't really know anything about D so they should be intrigued by what they learn. Veteran groups may react exactly as Uzagi put it. For instance, my players are well-versed in Eberron lore, and if they learned that
EBERRON SPOILER
they would recognize that the knowledge gained by their characters is most valuable, but they themselves wouldn't bat an eyelash.
The module's great, and has a lot of cool stuff in it, but doesn't really advance the overall plot. The PCs spend a bunch of time (and get a bunch of XP), only to be given the equivalent of "He's got two heads. I dunno, ask Iggwilv." by Shami-Amourae. I myself am pressed for time to finish the campaign path by a certain date, so I might just skip this chapter entirely and have Orgosh recommend the PCs go straight to Iggwilv (they can probably handle the CR jump just fine).
For Kobold Lord-- I apologize if my reading of the general tone of your posts was incorrect. It was certainly not my intent to start a flame war. It just seems that you've pretty much made up your mind that this adventure won't work, which means you're not really willing to seriously consider the work-arounds and reinterpretations suggested by the other posters. That's OK with me. It's your game, after all. I was just getting annoyed with the endless go-round on a couple of questions that seem to be real sticking points for you.
Clearly there are two different styles of DMing and play represented in this thread, and apparently the way this adventure is written just doesn't work for people who are committed to one of those styles of play. Since the whole point of this section of the boards is to trade ideas about how to run the AP, let's turn the discussion around a bit.
What would you do to make this adventure work for your group? Stat up Ahazu as an appropriate level encounter and have the party defeat him? Run a side quest to get that hard to find scroll of freedom? (If you haven't run the AoW, I should think it would be pretty easy to adapt parts of Library of Last Resort or Kings of the Rift. The recent adventure featuring fire giant cultists of Mephistopheles, in the same issue with the second adventure in STAP, might also do.) Set it up so that the PCs have to fight their way past a bunch of bad guys and then do something to communicate with Shami-Amourae through the well somehow? (Not sure how you force a being of this power to talk to you without giving it something it most desires in return, like its freedom, but probably someone here can come up with an interesting idea or two).
If this adventure is just completely a bad idea for your campaign, what would you do to replace it? (Perhaps this question can't be fully answered until we see the last two adventures of the campaign, since we won't know in detail what critical things the PCs need to be accomplishing in Wells of Darkness. We can guess, though, that this adventure is supposed to point to a way of defeating Demogorgon and a way of imprisoning him so that he can't easily make a comeback.) I can imagine some kind of spy adventure where the PCs infiltrate Demogorgon's stronghold to find some secret weakness that can be exploited later--but paladins won't be good for that substitute adventure either, unless they've taken levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor or something like that. Or Shami-Amourae might be long dead, but her diary might be hidden somewhere remote and obscure. Asmodeus has it locked up in his stronghold somewhere. Or the lich queen's replacement in the Githyanki city of Tun'arath has it. Or Dragotha has it in his horde, and uses it to blackmail the Big D into helping Kyuss once in a while.
These ideas still leave open the question of how to imprison the Big D. You can, of course, change the rules about what happens when you slay a demon lord, so that imprisonment is unnecessary. Or you could use the idea of the Wells of Darkness, and modify it so that handing over Demogorgon's body doesn't necessarily help his gaoler to achieve his unholy ambitions. Maybe part of whatever replacement adventure you run here should be about discovering a way to permanently imprison Demogorgon.
Edit: One last issue that seems to be a problem for some folks: What should be the nature of the secret that Shami-Amourae (or her diary, or whatever) holds? I think we'll really have to read the last two adventures to refine this, or to effectively evaluate whether the fact that his two heads are locked in a struggle against each other is (a) a big revelation and (b) has the potential to redirect the players' efforts. If you're completely revamping or jettisoning this adventure, it may be that you'll need to make a lot of changes to the last two adventures as well. Keep in mind that what seems obvious to the DM is often a complete mystery to players, even experienced ones who have lots of D&D lore packed away in their brains. If I were a player, I'd certainly find the idea that Demogorgon's heads are plotting against each other quite plausible, but I doubt I would have assumed it to be the case all along. We've known about the heads plotting against each other since we read the AP overview last year, so it seems old news to us. But as KnightErrant pointed out, even BoVD and FCI only hint that there is rivarly between the heads, not the precise nature of how it relates to the plot to unleash the Savage Tide. Even if your players have at some point in the past looked through these sources, they may not remember the details presented in them, and even if they own them and are looking up the Big D at this point to try to find out his weaknesses, they'll only get a hint of what is going on, not enough to spoil the secret they get from Shami if it's presented effectively. As DM, that's your job--to figure out how to present that secret in a way that makes this part of the quest seem like it was worthwhile and integral to the plot. If you need to modify the secret a little bit, or embellish it, you should do that--but I think we'll need a bit more detail on the last two adventures before anyone can figure out how best to present the secret, or how to modify it so that it really does turn out to be a significant one.
Hope these ideas can be genuinely helpful to those who have strong objections to the way the adventure is written, and that other posters (and the OP) can contribute to the brainstorm. 'Cause I'm bored with arguing over whether or not you can purchase a scroll of freedom. A little sugar in all that sour lemon-juice and you've got some lemonade! :)
I have a feeling that what IS revealed in the last two adventures won't satisfy you, alas; the themes set up in "Wells of Darkness," where the PCs have to ally with demons and other evil folks, are not unique to "Wells of Darkness." They existed in most of the previous adventures, and they'll certainly continue to feature prominently in the last two. It's one of the campaign's themes. Again, not for everyone, but judging from the reactions on a whole to Savage Tide, it seems to be a pretty popular choice for a campaign.
There are sections, in particular, in "Enemies of my Enemy" that could well make a deal with Ahazu to swap prisoners look tame.
To be comparable, they'd have to:
#1: Involve an obvious Act of Irrevocable Evil, which is contrary to the archetypes of both the hero and the anti-hero.
#2: Have absolutely no mitigating factors whatsoever for the Act of Irrevocable Evil, beyond, "The ends justify the means."
#3: Be obviously disadvantageous to the PCs, to the extent that they suffer a major temporary or permanent setback (or even total destruction) for more-or-less undefined benefits.
#4: Follow up by not offering any significant advantage if the PCs engage in the Act of Irrevocable Evil.
#5: Deny any way for the players to continue the adventure if they do not play along.
Note that the deal with Ahazu is radically different in these respects than destroying Tlaloc's Tear. The destruction of the Tear aided the aboleth, which is bad, but it is not an archetypical evil. The badness of the action is mitigated by the fact that the Neh-Thalggu are abusing the power of the Tear anyway, and while the PCs are inconvenienced if they fail to complete their task once the time limit caused by the rising water begins, they can still work around with Water Breathing and the like. Drawing away the lesser kopru with a staged disaster is helpful, but the PCs can skip the step if they wish.
If the grey areas in Enemy of My Enemy are fundamentally similar to The Lightless Depths, I personally will have no problem with them. It's really the combination of all five factors that makes me shy away.
Personally, I think that the moral questions/quandaries that this campaign hits the PCs with are great; it's one thing to just go through an adventrue attacking monsters and taking their stuff. Dealing with other situations (ethical, political, moral, romantic, etc.) is what makes the game a role-playing game. Otherwise, it's just a miniatures game, and they, while fun, are not what we produce adventures for in Dungeon.
I like moral quandaries, too. Trouble is, as written the adventure really isn't a moral quandary. It's just a bad deal. It doesn't take any real moral fiber to decide that selling your soul to Ahazu the Used Car Salesman for a lemon is not a good idea. And unfortunately due to space constraints, any players who want to try something else will need a DM who is amenable to making up something wholecloth. If a DM won't go off the tracks, then either the players quit or they are forced to metagame their way through (Well, we can't possibly get screwed bad enough to end the campaign, so we might as well do the only thing we're allowed to do.)
I still remain hopeful about the last two adventures. I suppose I'll find out if I'm right in a couple weeks.
It just seems that you've pretty much made up your mind that this adventure won't work, which means you're not really willing to seriously consider the work-arounds and reinterpretations suggested by the other posters. That's OK with me. It's your game, after all. I was just getting annoyed with the endless go-round on a couple of questions that seem to be real sticking points for you.
Yeah, the go-round on those two questions was annoying me, too. Specifically, I am not willing to accept variations of the following statements:
#1: The ends justify the means.
#2: If it works on the CharOp boards, it works in the default D&D campaign setting.
They just keep coming back.
What would you do to make this adventure work for your group? Stat up Ahazu as an appropriate level encounter and have the party defeat him? Run a side quest to get that hard to find scroll of freedom? ... Set it up so that the PCs have to fight their way past a bunch of bad guys and then do something to communicate with Shami-Amourae through the well somehow?
I don't know how you'd actually stage a fight with Ahazu, since he's kind of hard to get to. I did have an idea in the first post on how to adjust Ahazu's motivations so that making the deal would be falling into Ahazu's fiendish trap rather than the only way to progress, but apparently it did not resonate with the other posters because nobody will talk about any part of it save the Freedom scroll. If Ahazu could only directly benefit from prisoners who made willing contracts with him, it would both relieve the pressure on PCs who want to imprison Demogorgon in the Wells of Darkness and explain why Ahazu is so unreasonably callous with his own subjects.
If this adventure is just completely a bad idea for your campaign, what would you do to replace it? (Perhaps this question can't be fully answered until we see the last two adventures of the campaign, since we won't know in detail what critical things the PCs need to be accomplishing in Wells of Darkness. We can guess, though, that this adventure is supposed to point to a way of defeating Demogorgon and a way of imprisoning him so that he can't easily make a comeback.) I can imagine some kind of spy adventure where the PCs infiltrate Demogorgon's stronghold to find some secret weakness that can be exploited later--but paladins won't be good for that substitute adventure either, unless they've taken levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor or something like that. Or Shami-Amourae might be long dead, but her diary might be hidden somewhere remote and obscure.
Stealth is, at worst, dishonorable. Dishonor is not an Act of Irrevocable Evil. Paladins get a lot of leeway, but pledging their souls to the Dark Lord if they cannot collect a primeval power soul to sacrifice is entirely not the same thing. So if you want to not have the same sticking points, stop saying that.
Anyway, as it stands, the adventure is simply the most skippable adventure in the path. Sure, the Wells of Darkness is a cool plane to adventure on, but there are plenty of cool planes to adventure on that also did not get adventured on in this AP. Honestly, I think the best way to "fix" the adventure is to allow the PCs to walk away if they want to. Here's hoping for a sidebar in Enemy of My Enemy for the DMs of those PCs.
These ideas still leave open the question of how to imprison the Big D. You can, of course, change the rules about what happens when you slay a demon lord, so that imprisonment is unnecessary. Or you could use the idea of the Wells of Darkness, and modify it so that handing over Demogorgon's body doesn't necessarily help his gaoler to achieve his unholy ambitions. Maybe part of whatever replacement adventure you run here should be about discovering a way to permanently imprison Demogorgon.
First off, there are no rules about what happens when you slay a demon lord. In 3E, that has been quite nicely left to the individual DM. There is some precedent in the 2E Planescape Metaplot where planar exemplars are DM fiat factories and cannot be killed without written permission from TSR, for fear of upsetting the metaplot, but mercifully that didn't make the transition to 3E. Metaplots can be nice, but in my opinion that particular metaplot was too intrusive. (e.g. Die Vecna Die)
Anyway, once you've beaten Demogorgon into submission, you can pretty well take your pick of near-indestructible planar prisons to stow him in. Considering anyone who has dealt with Ahazu knows that he will release prisoners in exchange for a pledge from a few level eighteen mortals, the Wells of Darkness really don't look like such a good deal anymore. Were I a PC, I might favor (for example) handing him over to the guardinal Companions, who are already guarding many imprisoned beings of primeval power and would actually be motivated to guard Demogorgon because they genuinely want to protect the multiverse from him, rather than simply because they are greedy about such things. They seem like they'd be harder for Demogorgon's minions to bribe than Ahazu.
One last issue that seems to be a problem for some folks: What should be the nature of the secret that Shami-Amourae (or her diary, or whatever) holds? I think we'll really have to read the last two adventures to refine this, or to effectively evaluate whether the fact that his two heads are locked in a struggle against each other is (a) a big revelation and (b) has the potential to redirect the players' efforts. If you're completely revamping or jettisoning this adventure, it may be that you'll need to make a lot of changes to the last two adventures as well.
Actually, almost anything will do, as long as it actually affects the PCs' decisions. Perhaps she knows a secret way into Demogorgon's bedchambers, or perhaps an escape tunnel out of them that they'd have to cut off. Perhaps she can reveal some of his favorite spells or powers that he likes to bust out when he's fighting seriously, but holds in reserve when he's just messing around. Perhaps she can give a blessing similar to Balakarde in AoW.
Granted, these ideas aren't as evocative as they could be, but the players get information or benefits, and they alter their plans in accordance with these new advantages. This seems more satisfying to me than, "Great! We've confirmed that what we were doing anyway will work. Let's go!"
Hope these ideas can be genuinely helpful to those who have strong objections to the way the adventure is written, and that other posters (and the OP) can contribute to the brainstorm. 'Cause I'm bored with arguing over whether or not you can purchase a scroll of freedom. A little sugar in all that sour lemon-juice and you've got some lemonade! :)
Oh, yes. In spite of the recurring issues, this thread has been useful to me, and some of the suggestions have been genuinely helpful. I'm glad that the thread got the response it did, even though it wasn't 100% identical to what I was hoping for.
OK. I guess I didn't add enough sugar. Still tastes pretty sour to me. Maybe my tastebuds are off.
You seriously understate the difficulty of obtaining a rare 9th-level spell.
I got a Wizard in my campaign with Mage of the Arcane Order. In fact, I have heard that this is pretty essential to having fun playing a Wiz in this game what with the lack of spell books. Boom - he gets the spell with one round of concentration.
i realise that this debate seems to be over, therefore i am adding to it :)
here's how i see the sequence of events were i to try it on my group:
1. characters make a deal with Ahazu that they can contribute to and their alignments/consciences can live with
2. demon lords and the Abyss lose all cred
3. players lose interest, are easily distracted
4. and THAT'S WHEN they look down and notice the train tracks they're on, use that as an excuse to quit game and find one they can believe in
On The Abyss and Demon Lords and Their Plots
- good characters should feel that their sanity is under attack, the air they breathe is conspiring to corrupt them from within and tempt their flesh from without the instant they set foot in the joint
- you have to dirty up your soul so it's not recognised and EATEN
- you play by their rules on their ground - if this isn't the place for unreasonable moral/ethical absolutes and having to choose from horrible choices with no room to dictate or maneuver, then where is?
- if it was possible for mortals to vex demon lord plots and get away clean, they would not bother starting them
On Ahazu's Deal (mag not to hand)
- he's not in a position to totally dictate terms given his circumstances, IMHO the deal is as sweet as any out there - 66 days grace instead of a soul now? SWEET
- i would expect some measure of bad faith in a deal made with a CE being
- grabbing something else out of the Abyss to replace Shami: not even a little bit evil IMHO
- a soul deal WITH AN ESCAPE CLAUSE: questionable but only if the characters believe they're not up to the job or they think the DM-as-Ahazu is not going to honor it - if you don't trust your DM not to screw you then you have bigger issues as a group than this quandary
On Deus Ex Machina
- sure experienced players can spot it, doesn't mean they want to get off the ride. Unless you're jaded beyond recognition, I don't see how it's possible to get bored with this standard of raw material - I think Wells is one of the best instalments yet
In Short
- want to stop the savage tide? this is what it costs, otherwise enjoy your purity in a world gone mad (sorry i couldn't help myself)
having said that, i also will be beefing up Shami's advice to be more specific and practical. Even toying with the idea that Ahazu's book gives the PC's some control over her in some capacity so she can accompany/vouch for them/advise in Enemies (perhaps remotely).
rant almost over, i just felt that Big D (et al) deserved some respect before we squish one of his icky heads off (or whatever's happening). Now back to my pit of despair to wail some more over the END OF THE MAGAZINE! WAAAA