I've run a couple sessions of Savage Tide (converted for the Scarred Lands) and everyone absolutley loves it thus far. I have not had to convert/change too much, but I've noticed that the 'compensation' seems extremely high:
200gp per character from Lavinia to raid the Blue Nixie, plus 100gp/month retainer.
2,000gp of coin/gems in Parrot Isle (plus magic potions, magic wand)
1,700gp in coin/gems and 2 magic wands from Namien the Taxidermist!
I slashed Lavinia's reward to 50gp per character + 50gp to assist in the vault. I cut the Parrot Isle treasure by 75% (no wand) and the players were thrilled! The party will likely encounter Namien next session and I will be paring his equity down as well.
I won't likely change my low-magic style, but I am very curious to hear if I'm a complete miser or if others agree with me on this.
You may want to consider how to compensate your PCs in further encounters, where that extra level of wealth would allow them to otherwise outfit themselves with the appropriate gear.
Consider the gauntlet that is the beginning half of The Bullywug Gambit. Almost every enemy in there has DR/magic, has considerable potential to inflict disease and ability damage, and has abilities that require frequent Fort and Reflex saves, not to mention their high damage output and ferocity. From personal experience, I found that had my players not had the resources they did from There Is No Honor, they might not have had the ability to overcome some or even any of these hurdles.
Some treasure can be sold (at a 50% value, potentially 5% higher with the Merchant's District regional feat), and be used to acquire potions, oils, scrolls, or even magic weapons to overcome the challenges ahead.
But, if you feel confident in your players, and they have either the capacity for the increased challenge, or the bravery for it, then by all means keep up the good work!
Remember that after Sasserine the PCs won't really have the opportunity to buy magic gear of their own choosing until they hit Scuttlecove at about 16th level. If nothing else, giving them a bit of cash to play with will make it a lot easier for them to craft their own stuff - it particularly matters for fighters and the like, who might invest three or four feats in something like a glaive, and then not find a magic weapon for the best part of ten levels. In that case, letting them get a bit above the recommended wealth-per-level guidelines wouldn't bother me overly, especially with tough encounters like Kraken's Cove, the Mother of All, the hydra, and the Flotsam Ooze still to come.
Having said that, I did cut down the rewards Lavinia offered (ESPECIALLY before she regains her family treasure from the Lotus Dragons at the end of TINH!) since her finances are rather parlous and it seems a little illogical for her to be throwing thousands of GP around at that time, Wis 8 or no Wis 8. Though to balance that out, my PCs escaped from Parrot Island having found (but not used) the elemental gem, which puts them way above the power curve (despite them destroying all the potions trying to open the sea chests). The Lotus Dragons aren't going to know what hit them - a large earth elemental might as well be a tactical nuke at 2nd level...
*chuckle* Our rogue (a halfling named cora :) successfully sneaked into the Taxidermist and discovered the secret door. It was only when she brought the cleric back that Nemian heard them and since they were already past the secret door he decided to go invisible and wait until they left to pack up and leave for cauldron, so they never got his stuff*. Cora did not do so well on her lock pick rolls and the monk smashed all the potions under parrot isle, so they did not get those either. There is no mage in the party so the wands are not 'treasure'. Her player was out at the beginning, but the person who was playing her hid the coffer without ever opening it. When the player returned she got the elemental gem, so the party does not realize they have that even. Still with their money they have made numerous trips to the potion factory and even purchased a wand of clw and I think they will do OK.
*too bad, I thought the illusionated critters would have been a fun encounter-have to work that in some how.
Creative Director
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There's a lot of treasure in "Savage Tide" to be found, but it's a little uneven and comes in fits and starts. Each DM should absolutely adjust the treasure in the adventures to match his campaign, and honestly, this also means adjusting the treasure now and then from what's in the adventures to things your PCs can actually use. They won't have nearly as many opportunities to sell their stuff, and as a result will rely more on discovered treasure in this campaign than in previous Adventure Paths.
And do keep in mind that if you run Savage Tide as a "magic-low" campaign, certain parts of the adventure are going to get a lot tougher. Especially parts that involve fighting monsters with damage reduction.
I get the whole low-magic thing, (I <3 Iron Heroes) but bear in mind that this AP is tough. If your PC's are at lower than expected (DMG) wealth for their level they will be underpowered. No if's ands or buts.
I've opened up all wotc books and the players message me between games with their treasure values so I can be sure to keep them close to DMG guidelines and I still have zombies and Tyrannosaurs eating them, bards stabbing them in the throat after being mauled by sharks, and generally speaking a high body count. Six players and only 2 original PC's remain after the T-rex in HTBM. Some players have had multiple deaths.
So if you are going to go treasure / magic light, I suggest coming up with something else to boost PC power to make the AP more manageable. Maybe action points or more feats????
Or convert the whole darn thing to IRON HEROES and have a blast!!
My players just finished defending Farshore and finally had the opportunity to sell some items. They used teleport to hop to Renkrue and then to Sasserine. For those DMs who think Sasserine is too far form Farshore to teleport to, you're right. But Renkrue is less then 1000 miles from Farshore and Sasserine is less than 1000 miles from Renkrue, so a 10th level caster can make it to both locations. ;)
Anyway, my party split up everything and made sure that they all were equal and, as 11th level characters, they each are worth around 61,000gp. That's only 5,000gp less than what the DMG says an 11th level character should be worth. They're happy with that and don't feel underpowered. :)
I am so disappointed by the contents of this thread.
^^^^ Why? ^^^^
I think he was expecting a different kind of booty to be referenced...
(In my best Jack Nicholson): Wait'll they get a load of the artwork in the STAP adventure of Dungeon #148...awooo!
^^^ Did you get #148? I'm very much looking forward to it. : )
147 had quite a bit of booty tho, 3 pits ~70.000 Larvae each, at 250gp a piece..
Thanks for the insightful comments. It appears that I may just be tight-
Magic Shops?!? I don't think so.
Almost every enemy in there has DR/magic, has considerable potential to inflict disease and ability damage, and has abilities that require frequent Fort and Reflex saves, not to mention their high damage output and ferocity.
And do keep in mind that if you run Savage Tide as a "magic-low" campaign, certain parts of the adventure are going to get a lot tougher. Especially parts that involve fighting monsters with damage reduction.
I agree that DR is something to be very mindful of. I was actually a little concerned with the DR5 for the vault snake construct. I let it be and the players handled it just fine.
Each DM should absolutely adjust the treasure in the adventures to match his campaign, and honestly, this also means adjusting the treasure now and then from what's in the adventures to things your PCs can actually use.
I couldn't agree more. I hand out fewer magic, but the vast majority of what I do give out is stuff that the players are excited about and will utilize.
But, if you feel confident in your players, and they have either the capacity for the increased challenge, or the bravery for it, then by all means keep up the good work!
I have really great players- they'll survive. And they all enjoy the style, otherwise I would be running things differently.
I have another campaign going (currently 10th level) in the Scarred Lands with the same 'low-magic' style and I actually find myself ratcheting UP the EL to keep things interesting.
So if you are going to go treasure / magic light, I suggest coming up with something else to boost PC power to make the AP more manageable. Maybe action points or more feats????
Conversely to my Scroogey treasure policy, I actually always make sure that the players have heroic characters with great ability scores. I have them roll, but I use top three out of 5d6 and let them restart if they get a lousy string of rolls. In the end, they probably have an equivalent of a 50-point buy. I wonder how much that offsets not having all of the uber-gear?
Heh! Now my party has accepted Rowyn's offer and will not get the Lotus Dragon's loot either. *chuckle* It is a good thing I reward cool things (good RP, good strategies, clever thinking) with a random GameMastery item cards!
Conversely to my Scroogey treasure policy, I actually always make sure that the players have heroic characters with great ability scores. I have them roll, but I use top three out of 5d6 and let them restart if they get a lousy string of rolls. In the end, they probably have an equivalent of a 50-point buy. I wonder how much that offsets not having all of the uber-gear?
If they have high ability scores, they're probably going to perform as if they were three to four levels higher than they actually are.
I was very generous to my players for AoW, and they walked through most of it. I really came to regret my generocity as the campaign wore on.
For ST, I was very strict, stingy and by the book for character creation, and am running the AP as printed. We're still in TiNH (about to assault the Lotus Dragons, in tommorow's session), and they've had a challenging time of it, but nobody's died yet (despite some close calls) and everybody seems to be having fun.
I doubt I'll ever be very generous with character creation again. It grants your PCs a lot more power than you think it's going to.
Yeah, as far as power goes, NOTHING beats higher starting scores. Absolutely nothing.
Consider this: a +2 stat booster costs 4000gp, and doesn't stack with other similar stat-boosters (Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't stack with the Bull Strength spell, etc).
Now, 2 more points to an ability score is the same mechanical bonus, but it stacks with everything. It also doesn't take up a body slot, the way a magic item does. Magic item pricing indicates that non-body slot items cost double, so the value is up to 8,000 before we factor in the "typless bonus" aspect, which most would consider at least a 1.5 multiplier if not a 2. So even assuming 1.5, that leaves us with a grand total of 12,000 for the value of a simple +2 to an ability score.
This means that the difference between a 25 point buy (lets use the elite array for comparison, 15,14,13,12,10,8) versus a 32 (in which we shore up the lower stats, 15,14,14,14,12,10) means we have 4 stats that have gone up one modifier bracket. This would be a value of 48,000gp by our calculations.
So consider what a 50 point buy is? Stats of 18,16,16,15,15,14 are possible easily. Also consider that as you accelerate ability modifiers beyond the "norm" for a level, you effectively give the bonuses of higher spell DCs, bonus spells, higher saves, etc, than are expected by the DCs of the monster abilities and saves at that given level.
So even if we are kind an only charge 12k for every 4 points of point buy past 32, that adds roughly another 54,000 to our previous 25-32 sum of 48,000, for a grand total of 102,000gp in effective power increase.
Yeah, a 50 point buy is about as good as being 3-4 levels higher, until the level-dependant party wipers come out (I'm looking at you, Blasphemy!)
Yeah, as far as power goes, NOTHING beats higher starting scores. Absolutely nothing.
Thanks for the insight. I think I overstated the PCs stats as a 50-point buy. Any rolling method really isn't a direct equivalent to a XX-point buy-
Characters mostly end up with higher scores in abilities that they rarely/never use. Sure they have a Charisma score of 12,13, or 14- but in point-buy they would never spend the points on Charisma, they would go to 18 Dex for a Rogue, 18 Int for a Wizard, etc.I agree that generous stat rolling equates to a +X slotless Ability modifier for a heightened stat.
I thought I would have to cut back on the treasue in Savage Tide, but my players have missed so much of it that I don't have to worry.
They didn't get the treasure in the smugglers' tunnels on Parrot Island. It was about the only room in which they didn't check for secret doors.
They didn't get the taxidermist's treasure. They had it in their hands at one point, then he gave them a good spanking. They got to watch, helpless, as he took it from their hands and walked away with it.
They never faced Kersh Reftun of the Lotus Dragons, so they didn't get his special equipment.
They didn't really eliminate enough of the Lotus Dragons to take them out entirely, so I did cut Lavinia's bonus money in half. And they didn't get the special thanks of the Dawn Council.
They missed the rapier in Kraken's Cove.
The players don't know about most of this, of course.
Randy