Hi guys (and gals),
It seems that the PCs get tougher and tougher as they gain more levels. I know, that's the point, but hear me out... As they get tougher, with more hit dice, spells and magic weapons, you (as a DM), must counter this effect by throwing more and more powerful NPCs at your party.
Now it gets to a point where you MUST give your NPCs some type of magical stuff of their own to even have a chance to hit your PCs. The problem is, whith the PCs winning mostly every battle, they end up with an incredible amount of magical equipment, which they either keep for them selves, or end up selling to get more powerful items, or even make their own.
And by the time they reach higher levels (say above 10th), the PC party is nearly indestructable unless, of course, you throw even tougher bad guys with more powerful magical equipement. And what started as a snowball is now a full grown avalanch that's out of control.
Have any of you found a way to counter the snowball effect? What are your thoughts on this?
Ultradan
Contributor
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On a somewhat related note:
My group frequently make jokes about the villains drinking their potions and using theirs scrolls and wands as trying to use up the PCs treasure before they die.
I like putting my players against humanoids with levels. It's the kind of game I like. This leads to the snowball effect you mentioned, so I have had to conciously try to build more monster encounters or npcs that work without too many magic items.
I've also cut back on the amount of collateral treasure I give out, which usually works because my campaign goals aren't usually about 'getting the treasure.' That isn't to say that it isn't the PCs' goal, or at least the players' goal.
The treasure system was created to work like you described. However, it sounds like you need to throw more monsters at your party. Monsters fight well without much treasure. If you need to use NPCs, look into ways to have spells going on them before the battle starts, such as greater magic weapon.
...it sounds like you need to throw more monsters at your party.
I'm actually using the adventure paths in Dungeon Magazine (starting A Gathering of Winds soon). Figure that EVERY chapter in the adventure path has at least one 'main villain', and even a few secondary bad guys, and they all have pretty powerful stuff. It really doesn't take much victories to get the party boosted to a point where most battles seem one-sided.
Ultradan
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And by the time they reach higher levels (say above 10th), the PC party is nearly indestructable unless, of course, you throw even tougher bad guys with more powerful magical equipement. And what started as a snowball is now a full grown avalanch that's out of control.
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I am a little surprised that this is happening so soon in your group. Are you concerned that Ilthane the Black (CR13) will be too easy for your group of 10/11th level PC's? If (for whatever reason) this is the case, one thing I do to raise the difficulty of encounters is raise the HPs of the foes (Ilthane has avg HP per level as written. She could go to 323 HPs but that is a almost certainly a TPK). This provides no more treasure, but pushes the party much harder, especially when the foe has dangerous special abilities (like a breath weapon). An extra few dragon breaths always levels the playing field. Single use items (like a potion of fire resistance or lightning resistance or both) make for a tougher encounter and make sense for her since she was hunting a wizard at the time she trapped him in the Cairn. With Flyby Attack and her movement speed, she could easily slay the party as written, especially if she attacks at night and uses all of her abilities to the max. At the very least, it will not be something the party brushes off.What aspects of your characters' equipment makes you think they are overpowered?
What aspects of your characters' equipment makes you think they are overpowered?
Well, the PCs rarely miss on a to-hit roll, and I find my bad guys are having problems hitting them... Almost to the point where it's a case of bad luck when a PC gets hit.
But the problem, I think, is the fact that they make their own magic items now... And my players are smart, so they make just the right things to get that little extra bonus needed.
Ultradan
It’s a problem endemic to the genre and I doubt it can really be “solved”. This speed of progression is one of the primary differentiating elements between 2E and 3E that made me decide to continue with 2E. 3E seemed designed for faster character progression and faster achievement of the stage where characters are indestructible. I’ve been taught on these boards that this concept (which I referred to in a different thread as “Comic Booking” the game) is more property referred to as “Meta-gaming”. Unless the DM gets a firm grip on game pace and carefully controls and limits the elements that contribute to character progression, games will almost always advance characters to this stage quickly. The DM is totally responsible for how fast the snowball builds, where it rolls, and where it hits. 3E just seems made for getting there quicker, so the DM must be even more careful to control it.
I’ll approach the issue from the angle of slowing character progression and leave it to others to offer other methods:
1) Rely a little more on quantity of opponents, not quality. Even Conan can be brought down by numbers. From the lower levels, use increased numbers for a longer period before you start ratcheting up the power of the opponents. Also, reduce EP by having them taking on creatures they outclass by a significant margin (quantity or quality). If using larger numbers, hit them with enough to make it interesting but with a total CR that gives them less then 100% EP. The same can hold with fewer but higher quality opponents: just enough to make it interesting or somewhat challenging but not enough to get full pay-off. This can also be done by increasing the number of party members without increasing the CR so the per-capita split is smaller.
2) Once you’re forced to us higher quality opponents, make sure their goods are somehow undesirable to the PC’s: curses, defective workmanship, out or almost out of charges (and not rechargeable), aligned in a way the party just cannot use, etc. When the party tries to sell these items, reduce the take they get because of the undesirable nature of these items. There’s just not the same market for them, therefore what they reap is reduced. Also, reduce the treasures gained in encounters so they don’t get as much money or sellable goods, usable magic, etc.
3) Occasionally, have the party hit by something that destroys one or more of their current items, which they replace (to a point) with enemy treasure. This keeps them “rewarded” for success without fostering more snowball effect.
4) Increase prices for everything they rent or buy. If their outlay is greater and their income doesn’t increase to match, they will have a harder time affording what they want, so they have to delay acquisition by taking the time to save for it. This can even include the costs of various services rendered by churches and temples (healing, raising, resurrecting, cure disease, remove curse, or whatever).
5) (a) Get and keep them in trouble with “the law” and charge them heavy fines, or harass them with lower level but repeated offenses and multiple fines that just don’t seem to stop. This siphons off money (maybe even magic items) and forces them back out to find a way to replace stuff, setting them back and slowing progression. (b) Outlaw weapons and/or magic to a point that requires characters to acquire licenses to carry or use their stuff. These licenses are not cheap, require frequent renewal, and are subject to cancellation for a variety of infractions, not all of which are clear.
These are just a few methods I’ve used over the years to slow progression. In and of themselves they will not “solve” the problem, they just delay it, but the party might find they feel a higher sense of accomplishment when they surpass these obstacles and finally get to that “avalanche” stage you talk about.
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Oh and there is this AoW campaign that shows just how deadly this AP can be if the DM wants to make it hard. I think the approach taken here is extreme, but it serves to remind DMs that we often times subconsciously soften encounters against characters without realizing it. By being too soft on players, we may inadvertently create situations in which we feel they cannot be beaten. I am not advocating a wholesale slaughter as this DM does, but you can certainly learn a thing or two about the making the game harder by reading his thread. His run through a Gathering of Winds resulted in multiple character deaths and there is no indication he is withholding treasure or items from the group.
My point in bringing this up is there is likely a balance between the situation you are experiencing now and where the game can go as shown by this DM.
IME, 9th-12th levels are where the PCs power REALLY takes off, and you have to try and challenge them in a non-combat way. I hear ya on the goodies snowball, but I follow the wealth by level charts fairly closely, and its still an issue here. But remember, their enemies are just as smart and tough. They should plow through rooms of mooks, only to find that the BBEG has telported away, again, leaving a taunting note behind. Major organizations the PCs rely on become frail and riddled with corruption or double agents. Signifigant patrons approach the PCs and ask them to undertake quests of a diplomatic nature. And there's always the "save the chalice, save the world" storyline, but at this level, its easier to swallow that the PCs ARE exceptional.
And as has been mentioned, get off the magic item treadmill for a while. Have the BBEG surround himself with summonned or gated monsters (who have no treasure to speak of), or a small army of clerics who buff and run. Give him evil aligned stuff, or stuff that only works for his race/template. He can cast greater dispell at this level, so use it. And your pcs should have specialized by now, so a magic halberd is going to be too attractive to the fighter with weap focus :great sword. Just some ideas.
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Give him evil aligned stuff, or stuff that only works for his race/template.
This is panning out really well in my Ptolus campaign, without me even really trying. The PCs have actually gone to great effort (and expense) to dispose of evil and chaotic items, as well as 'illegal' magic items.
Hi guys (and gals),
Have any of you found a way to counter the snowball effect? What are your thoughts on this?
Ultradan
I have found (as a DM) that this problem is a correctable one. If the PCs are acquiring too much loot, you have a number of options that can rectify the situation.
First off, perhaps they are fighting the wrong types of enemies. What I mean is, perhaps the enemies they are fighting (the ones that have been heavily equipped in order to compete with the PCs), are too low level. Raise the level of the PC's enemies, and reduce the amout of equipment needed to keep them competitive. Also, utilize your Monster Manual (the one you dropped $30 bucks on), to engineer encounters with "low treasure" monsters. Things like Owlbears, Displacer Beasts, Frost Worms, etc put up an awesome fight, and don't always have to have a lair/treasure hoard within the PCs immediate area.
Another good option is to regulate PCs encumberance, cashflow, and trading abilities. Who is packing around all of this loot, and where are they storing it? Are they using a Bag of Holding (or similar item)? How much space is left in the Bag, and is there anything inside that might rupture the lining? What is the Gold Piece Limit of the community (DMG - Page 137), and who can afford to purchase the PCs excess items? Where will they have to go in order to sell these g@! d&%n things, and why is it becoming increasingly annoying to lug around every item looted off of every NPC that they kill?
Finally, if the PCs have looted themselves into "uber-status", by claiming the most choice, tasty items, and jacking their stats into outragousness, its time for a little item attrition! Throw in a nasty Gray Ooze to dissolve some the PC's weapons and armor. Fighter thinks he's a bad-ass - try fighting a giant with the Sunder feat! Be sure to note the look on your Player's face when that +2 Flaming Burst Longsword is reduced to nothing but a pretty hilt! I have also used the Shatter spell (or better yet, the Warlock's Baleful Utterance) to wreak havok among an over-equipped party. Try using it as an area effect to destroy the player's potions, or target a choice item (non-magical of course) and revel as it is blasted into a thousand tiny pieces, wha-hahahaha!
As an aside, I have found that the party can sometimes grow too powerful when Players or allied NPC's die too frequently, and the group loots them down to their pink underwear. To combat this, I usually allow them to take any oneshot items like potions, scrolls, etc., but impliment the "Viking Funeral" concept on all of the character's additional gear. By that, I mean that the Players need to be reminded that any personal items belonging to the deceased PC/NPC, should be left with the characters remains. Taking any of these items is at least a mildly evil act, and might just be the perfect excuse for the dead character's soul to grow angry and restless! Of course someone can bequeath an item to the PCs here and there, but those who abuse this concept should be aptly confronted with some form of gruesome undead!
Anyoo, that is how I usually handle the situation. Hope I could help!
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It’s a problem endemic to the genre and I doubt it can really be “solved”. This speed of progression is one of the primary differentiating elements between 2E and 3E that made me decide to continue with 2E. 3E seemed designed for faster character progression and faster achievement of the stage where characters are indestructible.
As I recall, characters were only really playable in 2E until about 10th level, perhaps 12th before things just broke down. 3E provides for quality play into the mid to high teens and a more uniform playing experience throughout. While I agree that 2E took longer to get to 10th level than 3E, I do not think that 2E charcters reached "unbeatable" stage any sooner in terms of number of gaming sessions required than 3E characters (albeit they are lower level when they do reach that point) unless you constrain the 2E progression. It sounds like you have done this using the techniques you list to further slow characters' growth. This is not a bad thing; in fact it is similar to how I played for many years, but I do not really believe 2E is better in any aspect now that I have truely given 3.5E a chance to show its strengths.
I also do not believe in "unbeatable" PCs. In fact, I have a general challenge to anyone that believes they can create an "unbeatable" 3E PC: create your character using core 3.5E RAW and I will create, through use of judicious base monster and augmentations, a core RAW challenge of the same CR as the character that will, by general consensus, result in the PC's defeat. I state this more as a thought experiment for those reading than to throw the gauntlet down and kick off an arena-like discussion of wizard vs fighter that took place on these boards a month or two ago. However, if someone insists, I suppose I will have to back my words up with actions. If someone insists on this, then let's move it to another thread.
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What aspects of your characters' equipment makes you think they are overpowered?Well, the PCs rarely miss on a to-hit roll, and I find my bad guys are having problems hitting them... Almost to the point where it's a case of bad luck when a PC gets hit.
But the problem, I think, is the fact that they make their own magic items now... And my players are smart, so they make just the right things to get that little extra bonus needed.
Ultradan
You may want to look into this thread for ideas on your specific issue. It speaks directly to it I think.
Though I imagine that Ultradan's eyes will roll and then glaze over as he reads this, I'll suggest it anyway. The snowball effect can be solved by giving NPCs as much wealth as the PCs, but without providing too much loot for the PCs. To make a portion of an NPC's equipment unlootable, I've come up with a few tattoos and elixirs. Though my guidelines assume that you follow the PC wealth by level guidelines in the DMG, it's easy enough to make more unlootable items to create the balance of wealth that you want. This solution has the added benefit of making a villain an equal challenge to the PCs without resorting to a dozen DM tricks or being ten times as rule-savvy as your players.
As to item crafting, I think that'll be less of a problem in an AP because of the limited down time. If not, you can always interrupt the PCs' down time after they've crafted as many items as you're comfortable with.
Though I imagine that Ultradan's eyes will roll and then glaze over as he reads this, I'll suggest it anyway. The snowball effect can be solved by giving NPCs as much wealth as the PCs, but without providing too much loot for the PCs. To make a portion of an NPC's equipment unlootable, I've come up with a few tattoos and elixirs.
This is my approach until I hammer out the kinks in my own system of replacing the majority of passive magic items with personal enhancements applied directly the the character, which would be compensated for with a separate type of "points" gained simultaneously with experience. As it is, I'll frequently award NPCs unlootable "passive" bonuses as tattoos or just plain slotless enhancements, and pump their weapons up with elixirs of greater magic weapon, which renders the weapon devastating for the necessary encounter without breaking the bank.
Numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Attack your PCs with wave after wave after wave of lower level thugs. You can never provide them with too many targets to shoot/whack at. The closer the number of their opponents for any given encounter gets to 1, the more likely the number will be zero by the third round of combat.
Even hitting them with four opponents at once (unless the opponents are particularly tough relative to your PCs) will likely be pretty easy for a four PC party, unless your players aren't very experienced in min/maxed character building or small unit tactics.
Every adventuring party should know what it feels like to be wildly outnumbered at least once. The really good/well built/experienced parties should be finding themselves outnumbered on a regular basis.
Added advantage to this DM tactic? It lowers the amount of magic you need to give to any individual opponent. You only need equip them with the barest minimum needed to give them a shot at hitting your PCs at least once in a while, and the sheer number of d20 rolls made by your NPCs will take care of the rest, And then when your PCs loot the bodies of their foes? They'll find their own equipment is better, and what they can sell won't bring them much, even in volume (and much of their equipment should be unsalvagable (destroyed or rendered unsellable by the fight), or used up a la potions and used charges.
Though I imagine that Ultradan's eyes will roll and then glaze over as he reads this, I'll suggest it anyway. The snowball effect can be solved by giving NPCs as much wealth as the PCs, but without providing too much loot for the PCs. To make a portion of an NPC's equipment unlootable, I've come up with a few tattoos and elixirs. Though my guidelines assume that you follow the PC wealth by level guidelines in the DMG, it's easy enough to make more unlootable items to create the balance of wealth that you want. This solution has the added benefit of making a villain an equal challenge to the PCs without resorting to a dozen DM tricks or being ten times as rule-savvy as your players.
As to item crafting, I think that'll be less of a problem in an AP because of the limited down time. If not, you can always interrupt the PCs' down time after they've crafted as many items as you're comfortable with.
This is very similar to the suggestion I was going to make. Why do you give the NPCs such good loot??
You are the DM. You control how much loot the NPCs get. Feel free to "bend" the rules. You're the Dm, you job is not to follow the rules, but to make the game enjoyable for the players.
So just up the stats of the NPCs. Insted of giving them a +3 weapon, give them a +1 weapon, and + 4 Strength. Instead of giving them +3 Armor, give them +1 armor and +4 Dex. Instead of giving them an amulet of Natural Armor, give them ACTUAL natural armor.
Basically give them the bonuses of the Magic Items, without giving them the magic items. Your PCs aren't going to know. And if they do, who cares? You are the Dm. You play by different rules.
Numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Attack your PCs with wave after wave after wave of lower level thugs. You can never provide them with too many targets to shoot/whack at. The closer the number of their opponents for any given encounter gets to 1, the more likely the number will be zero by the third round of combat.
My experience is that numbers need qualifiers. Ultradan says in one of his posts above that it has started to feel like a fluke when one of the bad guys actually hits a PC. That describes my game nearly to a T. If the players have ACs in the low 30's before buffing (at 10th) and in the mid 30's after they get some buffs up the numbers are basically meaningless. Mooks that are going to do a mere 20 or so points of damage even when they roll that miracle 20 on their to hit roll are basically a none factor. Adding them won't do much to slow your players down. My players will actually simply walk right through mooks AoOs to get at the BBEG simply because the mook is so unlikely to roll a natural 20 that its not really much of a risk.
I think this snowball effect is a pain in the butt. Consider that the monster that a 15th level character is going to face could wipe out most of the villages and towns in anybodies world; and that the party is going to face lots of them and stronger things. Consider also alignments, basically it seems that in any world I ever played in that the bad guys vastly outnumber the good guys. It seems it is only the GM that hold some of these dreadfully powerful groups from taking over everything and binging the world into a big chaotic swirld of combat.
so; to counter this gms usually do the little silly thing like most morphs do; this is a level 3 area so you only encounter low level stuff; pretty silly. The other option is to put in enough high level experienced individuals into every village and town to provide some deterent to the bad guys; and have active patrols of some group out patroling to keep the area civilized; ok; not a bad idea; but then why do pcs keep running into mobs in these areas; powerful mobs.
how do you explain having 5th level guards in your little town; lot of people opt for vets who were soldiers in some war or retired adventurers.
but this whole excalation snowball is universal to the system; when I build a high level adventure to challenge my 18th to 20th level party; they are bloody tuff; sometimes they get away; they are not going to just lay down a die and if it took 6 near level 20 peeps to chase them away from one area; who is gonna chase them out of some town they go smash for spite.
For pcs to keep advancing in levels; the gm creates more and more mobs of higher and higher power level; well hmm; why has nobody heard of these things before now; who spontaneously created these monsters and this dungeon. Many peeps at this point either send pcs to other planes or start importing extraplanual bad guys lock, stock and barrel.
so; with this sytem the gm really has his work cut out for him to keep things making sense. Something we have argued about for decades is the hole idea of hit points; do a first level guy is really threatened by a hit from an arrow from a longbow. A 10th level guy is not at all threatend my an arrow or even five arrows and maybe not even ten arrows; to many variables. So now weapons become extinct or unuseful because they are not threatening. So; in response the gm and players also snowball weapons; but does a level 3 guy find one of these 5th or 10th or 15th or 20th level weapons, well, no; the gm controls that for balance hehe; what a lark, but realistically a very low level guy might pick up a powerful weapon or item if he comes upon it after a battle where both sides have been killed; but, if that happens then the guy is no longer acting at the skill level of a 3rd level guy and the whole system gets wacked. So; the gm either has to take the item away; limit it in some way; or spontaneously create more powerful mobs to provide a challenge.
sigh, no it is not a perfect system, but we all love it.
this is not a rant; just some things our group has been discussing for years.
Yeah the magic creation feats and an Ap can be a deadly combo. Once the PCs figure out the main enemy type for the AP they can really go nuts. Sure you'll have the usual +3 armor, +3 amulet (both creatable by level 3 if I remember correctly) and whatever ring of protection they can find (usually +2 or +3 by then). Then you take into acount that they take +1 weapons with bane of the AP enemy (undead in your case) and Holy is always a good one since they tends to be a lot of evil in APs (I think Holy should be a +3 modifier instead of +2 personally). Granted all this seems to require time which in AoW I thought only came in a few places, but it is something you can regulate. For me what it really comes down too is has it sucked the fun out of the game for you? If that is the way the players want to play, walking into every fight like its nothing and walk out unharmed, then to each their own. Personally not fun for me. Maybe try just letting it be super easy for a while. Then when they get bored talk about how things are going. When they say its too easy ask why they think that and maybe they'll see the light. 3e is definately a number cruchers playground. You can definately build something really tough within the rules of the game, the players and DM alike. I would just talk to the players and figure out if they are enjoying it the way they are playing it. If they are then you need to decide if you are enjoying it they way they are playing. Hopefully you guys come to an agreement on how to play. I wouldn't punish someone for using the rules to their advantage, but if its not the kinda game you want to run they that needs to be resolved.
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There are many good ideas in this thread already, hard to add to it. I would suggest two things.
1. Collect all character sheets and do an audit of their magic items, encumbrance, etc. See if they are near the DMG suggested gp limit for their level. If it is way out of whack, demonstrate it to the PCs and tell them of the trouble it creates as a DM for you. Remember encumbrance, a wizard's 8 stregth only gives him 26 lbs to work with before he's into a medium load. The halfling rouge with the same strength has a medium load at 18 lbs.
2. Read over and enforce all the magic item creation rules, especially XP cost. This should really add up, especially if there's only one PC thats creating all their items. See how they like having a wizard stuck at 5th level while the rest of the party is 10th. The unlucky wizard should then die frequently. There are many costs associated with item creation and you should limit the access to these things, raw materials, spell availability, etc. And time. If you findthat your PC's take a week off from adventuring, make it a very costly week. Demons invade the town, the volcano explodes, anything while they're sitting on their duffs. Oh yeah, and the fighter's +3 sword that he is having the Holy enhancement put on is still in the shop when the bad guys come.
Good luck and cheers!!!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Out of curiosity, is this effect mostly in regards to fighting NPC's with class levels, or for all encounters? NPC's with class levels are on the absolutle lowest end of the CR scale. This drives a lot of people nuts and tends to be one of the things that fuels complaints about the CR system. Savage Species sort of underlines the problem by taking monsters and breaking them into their component levels and then assigning each level a CR. I don't have the book in front of me, but a level 4 troll may actually be a CR 3 opponent. The same thing applies to the other classes. A level 9 bard is probably more a CR 8 opponent. This is also why you have all the non-associated class level stuff in the MM.
Every adventuring party should know what it feels like to be wildly outnumbered at least once. The really good/well built/experienced parties should be finding themselves outnumbered on a regular basis.
Added advantage to this DM tactic? It lowers the amount of magic you need to give to any individual opponent. You only need equip them with the barest minimum needed to give them a shot at hitting your PCs
Very true. I once gave a tribe of kobolds little hollow sticks (about 3” long) that had each been enchanted with a single Magic Missile. It’s amazing the swath of destruction a 100 of these guys can cut through an adventuring party!
…but I do not really believe 2E is better in any aspect now that I have truely given 3.5E a chance to show its strengths.
I wasn’t really trying to make artistic commentary on version vs. version, just admitting that the problem exists in both versions and that I prefer 2x because of the slower injection of this problem.
I also do not believe in "unbeatable" PCs.
Generally, I agree, but there comes a point when the party is so hideously tough that only the most drastic measure remain effective. For me, 2x seems to take longer to get to that point, and with various methods of slowing progression, a campaign can take a good long while before I have to start pulling out what’s left of my hair to make them sweat.
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I don't see the snowball effect as a problem, because I don't believe PCs can reach a level of power that doesn't get significantly challenged. I've run many high-level games, even an epic campaign or two, and there are always good opportunities for the PCs to screw up and/or die. As a DM, I am fond of using monsters whose tactics permanently destroy magic items (Sunder, Disjunction, etc.). Lucky for my players, I also tend toward the high end of rewards, and I try to tailor the treasure to the party when appropriate.
When a friend of mine runs high-level games, he likes to use surprise rounds with exceptionally high DC save effects. This has included a great wyrm dragon with no less than seven breath metamagic feats from the Draconomicon. The ability to resurrect at high levels is not a gaurantee (or perhaps, "should not be", depending on what you let your players get away with). Soul Jar, Imprison, and a TPK can still keep a PC down for good. Even Flesh to Stone and a random Plane Shift for those darn healers who keep reviving everybody.
As for printed high-level adventures: I've occasionally had a problem with my players treating them like a cake-walk. This sometimes happens with my low-level adventures too, so I don't think it's endemic to high levels. There's usually something nasty in the adventure that give the PCs a good scare, though.
Edit: I realized that most of my answer calls for using magic to overcome the PCs, but there are ways to bring up the threat of physical attackers. Situational modifiers are great for this. Improved Natural Attack raises the die size of natural attack damage. Hordes of small creatures can still strike 10 feet away with longspears, and the Aid Another action can boost at least one of their chances.
Never give them treasure hordes ... or if you do then have an Old dragon decide to come take it away. Now they'll have a nemesis for the next 10+ levels.
Actually, this is one of the better suggestions I've heard regarding how to remove "problem items" from a game. While I don't like the idea of taking things from the party, if it has to be done, this is a fairly sensible way to handle it.
All dragons are greedy and like to stock lairs with treasure. If the party starts getting too powerful (or has too powerful items), the dragons can probably learn about it. They can then locate the party, swoop down, and try to demand/take the treasure. It's then out of play for a while in the dragon's hoard, but eventually (when the party is of the right level) they can confront the brigand drake and take it back. This will probably go over "best" (i.e., less death threats towards the DM) if you tell your players beforehand, in or out of game, that dragons are known to do this.
It's certainly better than "Look, the item just has to go," or "A god demands that you get rid of it!" So long as the party knows that eventually, it will be possible for them to go and get the +5 Do-hickey back, they should be more willing to accept it.
As far as how I handle treasure, I assume that the game is written with this snowball effect in mind and thus don't worry about it much. I do still take liberties with treasure and loot, however. I adapt it to what makes sense for the situation. If the party is raiding a goblin cave, and all the goblins are leveled to the point where the DMG says each should likely have a +1 weapon, then I'm going to go agaisnt the rule. Where in the world are goblins getting that much magic? I might not even give them masterwork, for that matter, unless they have reasonable access to such items, through an unscrupulous merchant, a smith of their own with enough skill, or raiding (and finding a bunch of Small-sized armor and weapons just doesn't strike me as likely unless the halfling/gnome population in the region is huge).
However, that excess treasure isn't just "lost." I keep a tally of what the DMG says the loot rewards should be, and then use that as my pool of funds to deck out the BBEG, so that he has far more loot than suggested by the DMG without breaking overall wealth-by-level guidelines. Classed NPCs are the absolute weakest creatures for their CR, anyway, so this fixes that problem nicely. After I've sufficiently decked out the BBEG, I convert the rest to a general "hoard/treasury" that the party can claim. It's also easier for me to keep track of that way; rather than having treasure scattered all over a dungeon, it's condensed into a few key locations.
Rezdave,
You way you treat your players(IC) is appalling, you're evil in the worst kind that you don't make the challenges overpowering but you just handicap your PC's.
Personally? I love it, wish I could come to one of your games. ^_^
On subject,
Using the Magical Item compendium and the DMG I figure out a total loot stash for every encounter(if the encounter has loot) and distribute the items amongst possible locations(so the PC's might not find everything) and anything that does not fit(a vampire cabal with a amulet of undead turning erh?) goes into the bin and stays out of the game.
I also don't care about what the books says about wealth per level, I'll give items and such when I feel like it(and I do often feel like it). My players don't complain and usually treasure any type of magic I give them.
My 2 cents,
Rift,
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I also don't care about what the books says about wealth per level, I'll give items and such when I feel like it(and I do often feel like it). My players don't complain and usually treasure any type of magic I give them.
I'll agree with this viewpoint, but if you hamstring your players' wealth levels, make sure you don't continue following the EL charts in the book either.
We're having this problem in a campaign I'm currently in where our characters are poor as hell and there isn't a single magical item amongst us. Our characters are 5th level now and we're beginning to run into things that have DR/magic. Our party is small (only 3 players) and we don't have any NPCs with us to fill the gaps. We've got a druid, a bard, and a wizard(conjurer). None of us are heavy hitters (hell, we're not even medium hitters) in melee, but between my spells and the druid's wolf form (using the Shapeshift variant from PHB2) we've managed to scrape by. After a battle with a shade (ECL +4) sorcerer wielding fireball (meaning at least 6 character levels for an EL 10 encounter), I talked to the DM. I let him know that we were woefully underpowered for the creatures he was sending us against. The only reason we even survived that battle was because my character was a Spellfire Wielder (a feat from Forgotten Realms) and was able to absorb some of his more powerful spells. (And really, the only reason even THAT worked was because I'm much better at spellcaster tactics than the DM is. If it weren't for the druid's resist energy spells, we would've been toast in the first round.)
His response? "You find a couple of wands on the sorcerer's body." Later, when I identified them, they turned out to be a wand of mage armor and a wand of darkness. An EL 10 encounter yielded approximately 1500gp worth of loot to a party of 5th level characters (which worked out to about 500gp each). BUT! During the fight, the bard had been rendered deaf by the sorcerer's blindness/deafness spell which necessitated a visit to a local cleric of sufficient level to remove it. It cost us 375gp to restore her hearing and functionality. So much for that.
I really hope this campaign improves soon, or I won't continue to play in it. If you limit the wealth, limit the encounters. Don't put your players up against stuff that they have only the faintest chance of surviving or, if you do, don't do it constantly and at least compensate the players for their achievement.
I also don't care about what the books says about wealth per level, I'll give items and such when I feel like it(and I do often feel like it). My players don't complain and usually treasure any type of magic I give them.I'll agree with this viewpoint, but if you hamstring your players' wealth levels, make sure you don't continue following the EL charts in the book either.
And thats exactly what I'm doing. I take a look at a monster, look at the EL and decide if I want it in or not based on what I know what my party can do and can't do.(if in doubt, I ask two friends of mine that are long time DM's)
Oh and as for the problem with your DM, tell him to get 'real' or he's going to lose players. You can't throw overpowered encounters at an underpowered group and expect the players to survive(and they won't enjoy the encounters either).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Oh and as for the problem with your DM, tell him to get 'real' or he's going to lose players. You can't throw overpowered encounters at an underpowered group and expect the players to survive(and they won't enjoy the encounters either).
I intend to. While there is something satisfying about taking on an enemy 5 ELs above you and winning, I wouldn't want to make a habit of it.
And really, considering the fact that there are only 3 of us in the party, the ACTUAL EL might be more like 11 or 12. Or, at the very least, our effective party level is 3 or 4 instead of 5. Suffice to say it was the DM's poor strategy and a bit of phenomenal luck that got us through that encounter.
I do strongly agree with … points 1-3, but not so much 4-5 as written.
I run a silver-standard economy, not a gold one, and have varied the economics of my world to a more feasible model. It all still works with standard rules, but rather than making everything more expensive I pretty much reduce cash-treasure by 90% and allow PCs to sell "used" gear at 5-20% of book value depending upon its condition. This keeps them from amassing too much wealth.
Also, since they don't have the money to buy or make every magic item they want they are forced to use whatever magic they find ...
In reference to #4, your suggestion seems to be merely the opposite of mine of raising prices, so I don’t see the effective difference, but have it your way.
As for #5, it’s just a tool I’ve used and had used on me (mostly as a plot device, but not always). I just tossed it out there to expand the possibilities.
… in my low-economy world the PCs at about 12th level were rewarded by a regional lord not with treasure but rather with titles and estates. These pay them modest sums but continue over time. Being a feudal system, however, in addition to their title as Sheriffs they are expected to pay him taxes, equip and support their own men-at-arms and so forth. Also, their new positions required them to build new fortified manors.
2E effectively does the same thing, just at lower level. When a character (mostly fighters) reaches 9th level, he’s supposed to establish a keep. If he doesn’t already have the land (awarded or otherwise) he has to buy it. He then has to hire people to help him clear all the land around it – to a certain distance. No untouched dungeons, unexplored ruins, or quaint tribal villages of hostile creatures nestled comfortably beneath the boughs of the Banyan Trees. The initial building costs for this keep can literally go into the millions of GP (check out some of the on-line computation aids available). Acquiring people to live there and maintain the place costs even more. From that point on, the characters is a part of “The System” and expected to comport himself/herself accordingly – you know, upholding the law, blah, blah, blah. 2E’s earlier initiation of this activity is the same kind of aid to governing character progression.
I agree thoroughly that it's the DM's responsibility to manage this whole problem, though. Any "snowball" effect, or other problem that continues to the point of unmanageability, usually points to a need for a DM to reassess his/her methodologies. The first place I would suggest anyone with further problems look is to house rules which have a very nasty habit of distrubing game balance.
Ok, how do you "low magic" guys handle wizards and sorcs as PC's?
One way I use is to get really anal-retentive and brutally disciplined about time requirements. Whether they’re trying to copy a scroll at 1st or 2nd level, or trying to make a Staff of Wizardry at 25th level, if they’re doing it themselves, there are guidelines about how long it should take. I’m very heavy handed about using that information. Not a lot of people are going to semi-retire their Mage for six months or two years or however long it takes to forge and enchant the +18 Do-Hickey of Rectal Doom and Pot Scrubber. Given the choice, most players will elect to continue adventuring and hope they get something worthwhile on the road. For the occasional ones that put the character aside for the stipulated period, more power to them, that’s why the rules are there. That Do-Hickey is still as subject to all the other travails of an adventuring life as anything the party finds or takes from someone else. The DM’s Ring of Anything I Say Goes is the only truly indestructible item in the game.
Oh and as for the problem with your DM, tell him to get 'real' or he's going to lose players. You can't throw overpowered encounters at an underpowered group and expect the players to survive(and they won't enjoy the encounters either).I intend to. While there is something satisfying about taking on an enemy 5 ELs above you and winning, I wouldn't want to make a habit of it.
And really, considering the fact that there are only 3 of us in the party, the ACTUAL EL might be more like 11 or 12. Or, at the very least, our effective party level is 3 or 4 instead of 5. Suffice to say it was the DM's poor strategy and a bit of phenomenal luck that got us through that encounter.
More power to you, its always fun the beat the DM. And I mean that in a non-game-breaking-way. Something about playing a cleric/radiant servant of pelor and having the DM throw a bunch of skeletons at you. ;) Poor DM.
Oh and about the 'granted' titles and forced upkeep of those lands idea, brilliant, going to use it for my campaign. Now I just need to figure out what I need to do when one tries to evade his responsibilities. But that probably calls for another thread.
Very true. I once gave a tribe of kobolds little hollow sticks (about 3” long) that had each been enchanted with a single Magic Missile. It’s amazing the swath of destruction a 100 of these guys can cut through an adventuring party!
Heh. One of my all time favorite gaming stories involved our party getting our butts handed to us on silver platters by a tribe of kobolds that had been trained to set traps and ambushes. It was a slaughterhouse. We were wildly outnumbered and had to run screaming from the kobold lair several times before we cleared it out.
When we (as PCs) told the tale in taverns later?
Every instance of the word "kobold" was replaced with the word "ogre," just so we weren't laughed out of every tavern we entered.
After a battle with a shade (ECL +4) sorcerer wielding fireball (meaning at least 6 character levels for an EL 10 encounter), I talked to the DM.
Note that the ECL Modifier is almost invariably higher than the CR modifier. It was probably approximately a CR 8 creature, though I can't recall the exact numbers for the Shade template offhand.
That said, a party of three level five characters is approximately as effective as a standard party straddling the level three to four crossover, so it's still criminally stupid.
...it sounds like you need to throw more monsters at your party.I'm actually using the adventure paths in Dungeon Magazine (starting A Gathering of Winds soon). Figure that EVERY chapter in the adventure path has at least one 'main villain', and even a few secondary bad guys, and they all have pretty powerful stuff. It really doesn't take much victories to get the party boosted to a point where most battles seem one-sided.
Ultradan
Are your players getting any kind of unusual benefits not particularly prevalent in AoWs?
I've covered this before but essentially I advocate giving the the bad guys an even shake.
Specifically
Do your players get some kind a bonus when rolling hps at each level? If so work out roughly what kind of a mathematical advantage that is and add it to all the enemies hps. So if your players get to reroll 1's do that for the enemies or give them, say 60% of max hps. If its some method where you and the players roll for hps and the players keep the best – well that is probably worth 70% of max possible hps etc.
Were the PCs built with better then a 25 point build or have they rolled better then the 25 point average? Work out the difference and up bad guys stats by this much.
Did the player get to choose classes and prestige classes from non core books? If so then, at a minimum, rebuy the bad guys feats and spell choices to take these books into account.
This should allow the bad guys to at least stay competitive.
since your playing an AP I would not think that magic items should really get all that out of control. I'd not be giving NPCs extra magic however (that is just another way of giving the PCs more magic), instead I might swap some stuff around, especially to take advantage of an non-core books in play.
If they have gone crazy on the creation feats ... well hopefully the XP cost will keep that somewhat in check. I think that this is most notable at the levels around 10th so the problem might begin to resolve itself in a few levels (combination of having enough money to be able to make the really dangerous stuff without having so much that your actually crippling yourself from the XP hit).
There are some really tough adventures coming up in that AP. Min-max them a bit using the above suggestions and I think you should find that the monsters can keep up with the PCs.
Especially consider the monsters feat choices. That AP loves power attack but its not a good choice against high AC players. Strip the feat out and replace with something better.
Are your players getting any kind of unusual benefits not particularly prevalent in AoWs?
I don't think so... I'm a 'by the book' kind of DM. I usually stick pretty much to what's given in the adventure path (this is a choice based on lack of prep time).
Ultradan
Do your players get some kind a bonus when rolling hps at each level? If so work out roughly what kind of a mathematical advantage that is and add it to all the enemies hps. So if your players get to reroll 1's do that for the enemies or give them, say 60% of max hps. If its some method where you and the players roll for hps and the players keep the best – well that is probably worth 70% of max possible hps etc.
Nope. Hit dice + Constitution Bonus. That's it. And I make them keep their 1s if they roll'em (... by the book).
Ultradan
Were the PCs built with better then a 25 point build or have they rolled better then the 25 point average? Work out the difference and up bad guys stats by this much.
Again, no point buy. I use a 4d6, drop the lowest character generation method. Some of my players even had a 6 once!
Ultradan
Did the player get to choose classes and prestige classes from non core books? If so then, at a minimum, rebuy the bad guys feats and spell choices to take these books into account.
Hmmm. Maybe you've got something there. I told my players that whatever is in the books is fine with me (hell, I can't keep track of all those new classes and feats). Maybe I should go back to core rule book classes.
But then, there's still that pesky sorcerer with his (seemingly) unlimited number for fireballs...
Ultradan
Did the player get to choose classes and prestige classes from non core books? If so then, at a minimum, rebuy the bad guys feats and spell choices to take these books into account.Hmmm. Maybe you've got something there. I told my players that whatever is in the books is fine with me (hell, I can't keep track of all those new classes and feats). Maybe I should go back to core rule book classes.
But then, there's still that pesky sorcerer with his (seemingly) unlimited number for fireballs...
Ultradan
This might be a big part of the problem. I'm all for expanded options outside of the PHB, but the DM needs to keep a close eye on this. Some of it's gold, a lot's chaff (either useless or overpowered). The DM has to decide what he's comfortable letting into his game, both for balance and game style reasons. If you waive that responsibility, that's fine, your game won't come to a crashing halt, but you will get the exact problem you've encountered.
Have any of you found a way to counter the snowball effect? What are your thoughts on this?
Ultradan
For one, characters can't take everything with them they find. This isn't a video game where they can just chuck the latest +1 shortsword they acquire over their shoulder and it lands perfectly within their backpacks. Characters have very finite storage capacity, two hands at most for weapons, and one body for armor. Adventurers are the worst packrats. They make packrats blush.
The loot they acquire through conquest is only as good as an upgrade to what each character currently possesses. If they want to take everything they acquire in their travels, let them right up to their maximum carrying capacity, and then completely destroy their movement rates. Once they can barely limp along hauling tons of gear, weapons and who know what else with them, attack them with something, and watch the loot fly as they suddenly realize, "Hey, I can't move worth a damn, and I'm getting killed because of it."
Bottom line is encumbrance is your friend. Make the players choose between this sword or that one, this piece of armor or that suit of armor. They can't take it all with them unless you LET them take it all with them. Then, it's your fault. Obviously, smaller treasures can also be hoarded, which is okay by me; they're small, portable items. But even those can become problematic. If you need a particular wand, and you have 30 of them all bound together in their own large sack or case, good luck finding the right one. There are no name tags showing which one is which to the character.
Organization can save your life, as can being selective in what you carry on your character.
I'm reminded of the scene in Saving Private Ryan where Hanks tells Uppam, "First of all, *tosses typewriter and other assorted goods to the ground*, you don't need those. You'll need that *pointing to his helmet* and this." et al.
That scene really puts it into perspective imo.
Did the player get to choose classes and prestige classes from non core books? If so then, at a minimum, rebuy the bad guys feats and spell choices to take these books into account.Hmmm. Maybe you've got something there. I told my players that whatever is in the books is fine with me (hell, I can't keep track of all those new classes and feats). Maybe I should go back to core rule book classes.
But then, there's still that pesky sorcerer with his (seemingly) unlimited number for fireballs...
Ultradan
Ditto Saern. The first big campaign that I ran, I made the mistake of saying 'anything by WotC goes.' Most of it's okay, or no worse than core, but some options are just insane...I'm looking at you, frenzied berserker.
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I sense a distance problem. But no matter, I'll lurk on your forum anyway.
A simple idea i came up with for keeping things challenging for the players as they gain wealth and power, control xp allocation and leveling up rate.
I found I can keep things challenging when using the APs by simply controling the rate at which my Pcs level up. I thought about it as a way to keep PCs arround the same level. Some players started early and were leveling quicker than other players. I decided to monitor the xp given until all would level at about the same time. I realized that it would be a simple way to keep thingsfrom things getting to easy. I have six crafty players, who can make things easy if they advance to swift. So maybe keeping them a level our two down when they encounter a Major NPC may be a lazy way of keeping things challenging with out having to spend time pumping up NPCs to match the power of your PCs, at least i hope it works that way.
So far as I'm concerned if you can pull it off at 1st level then be my guest.
I agree…I was pointing out that 2e requires it by that time. If a character hasn’t done it before then, it then becomes mandatory by the rules.