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I also am actually kind of happy in an odd sort of way that WOTC has done this and pissed even more people off. I also wish that they would continue to screw things up and piss off even more people to the point that Dungeons & Dragons can the long overdue rest it deserves.
I think you're absolutely right. The writing is on the wall...
I'm going over to the storage unit I contain my Palladium/Rifts sourcebooks in right now and drafting up a new character to play. I'm thinking half-dragon half-leprechaun juicer superhero glitterboy pilot with tattoo magic. I'll need to pick up about six more pounds of d20's so my fellow party members don't need to wait so long for me to execute my attack rolls...I can just roll them all at once.
I'm glad there are still products out there which encourage roleplay and don't focus so much on crunch.
I also am actually kind of happy in an odd sort of way that WOTC has done this and pissed even more people off. I also wish that they would continue to screw things up and piss off even more people to the point that Dungeons & Dragons can the long overdue rest it deserves.I think you're absolutely right. The writing is on the wall...
I'm going over to the storage unit I contain my Palladium/Rifts sourcebooks in right now and drafting up a new character to play. I'm thinking half-dragon half-leprechaun juicer superhero glitterboy pilot with tattoo magic. I'll need to pick up about six more pounds of d20's so my fellow party members don't need to wait so long for me to execute my attack rolls...I can just roll them all at once.
I'm glad there are still products out there which encourage roleplay and don't focus so much on crunch.
Ha ha Ha LOL
But seriously crow joe can't you see the loss of Dragon and dUngeon affects the hobby as a whole despite what you think of Wizards. New magazines generate new players and interest in ALL roleplaying games.How many adverts did palladium have in Dragon magazine?.Think how did they get players intertested in Rifts if it was not advertising and reviews in dragon?
Contributor
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I'm glad there are still products out there which encourage roleplay and don't focus so much on crunch.
I used to play Palladium a bit. Personally, I felt that it totally encouraged role-playing over crunch encounters. But mostly because the rules were so cumbersome and non-intuitive that we avoided any situation that might require us to use them.
I did get a kick out of how the rules were written to mock D&D and yet replaced them with something even more difficult to play and understand.
Every time I see Palladium stuff I'm baffled that it's still around and that anyone plays it. I've felt that way for about 20 years, so I guess that shows what I know.
Craig Shackleton,
The Rmabling Scribe
I have to say I have been disappointed with WOTC and 3.x as well. At first I was excited by 3.0 but then it went down hill. I have been playing since 1981 so I have been around a long time. They have a successful business model but at the cost of the fans. Dungeon and Dragon were two magazines that I enjoyed however they were "house organs" that is to say they published only D&D stuff. While that is all well and good, I would love to see a broader approach to gaming in a magazine. It was a good place to advertise and that will hurt the industry the most.
Over the last couple of years I have discovered systems that minimize "rules bloat" without minimizing the right admixture of "crunch and fluff"...games like True20 by Green Ronin and HARP by Iron Crown Enterprises are but two. My main problem is that most folks play D&D (because they don't know better, lol) and you have to play the game to recruit new players.
People look at their vast collections of D&D stuff going into the thousands to tens of thousands of dollars and they don't want to feel like they have wasted all that money. I know, I speak from experience. But, this seems like a good time for me to turn my back on them. Their products no longer fit my need. WOTC has "jumped the shark". I place the moment to when the launched *shudders* Eberron.
So long WOTC...hello other gaming companies who treat there fans right!
Yeah I have to say all the. "For the fans," comments have just totally pissed me off, since 3rd ed showed up. None of it has been. If you want to see something done, for the fans, read up on what Palladium Books has been through in the last year. I'm so glad you didn't sell Kevin.
Had I been smart enough to say goodbye to AD&D when I heard about 3rd ed, I probably wouldn't have been close to as pissed off I have become. I started with D&D basic and worked my way to 2nd ed. My first DM sucked, by the way, and I probably would have given it up quickly had it not been for Dragon and later Dungeon. I held onto it in 3rd ed, hoping it would get through. I even held onto it through 4th ed.(call it 3.5 if you have to, we all know) The ROLEplaying game that a hole bunch of people loved enough to work so hard to keep getting to us turned more and more into a strategy game, with collectable mini's even. Everytime they said it was all for the fans and the game they loved, it ate at me. It was a total lie. WOTC never did anything for the fans, only for the money.
I've since gone back to 2nd, thanks to my local used bookstore, and some help from ebay. I've also switched back to Palladium Books which can tell you all about what it means to do EVERYTHING for the fans and the game they love.
I honestly have wished for a few years that TSR and AD&D would have died with 2nd. I also am actually kind of happy in an odd sort of way that WOTC has done this and pissed even more people off. I also wish that they would continue to screw things up and piss off even more people to the point that Dungeons & Dragons can the long overdue rest it deserves. Talk about needing new people in the hobby all you want, but for those new people looking for a game made and still run by people who love the fans and the game, I would point them over to Palladium Books.
Dungeons & Dragons has been dead for a while, in my mind at least.
R.I.P. old friend. I will continue to honor your memory wih an edition made by people who REALLY...
I read this last night and wanted to say something. Halfway to the keyboard, I stopped. Didn't really know how to respond to such a selfish, self-serving point of view. You don't like what's going on so you hope the game system caves? This reminds me when I was a kid and the little dude that owned the only ball in the neighborhood got mad and stormed off with it.
You seem to know very little about the game and it's disigners/writers. Being one of them, I can tell you I absolutely LOVE this game. I pour myself into everything I write. Some things I've been paid for, others were done for free. Whatever. It's about love of the game.If D&D is dead to you then have fun with your Palladium stuff. However, for a big majority of us, the game is very alive. Yeah, we're all pissed and disapointed about the loss of our cherished magazines. Trust me, a lot of people are far more affected by it then you by a long shot. A lot of writers that depended on Dungeon and Dragon magazines to see their stuff published suddenly found the rug pulled out from under them. Just check out the Blackhole thread for a long list of "victims".
If you're looking for real honest to goodness love of the game, look around you, my friend. Your on the Paizo boards, dude. You'd have to look very hard to find a group of people more dedicated to this game (D&D) and a greater love for it.
Having said all of that, if you thought the system was dead at 2nd edition, well there's probably not much anyone can tell you to change your mind.
One thing you need to remember though is that people need to make money. They have house payments, kids, bills, and a physical necessity to eat food. Dungeons and Dragons has never been a non-profit organization aimed at bringing happy, fun, fun to everyone. The business of publishing is costly. Breaking even is not an option. If the gaming companies can't make a profit from their products, how on earth do you think they can put more products out? It takes money. A constant profit to keep putting stuff out.
Anwyay, I've had my two cents and more.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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*knock, knock*
Who's that at the door?
*opens door*
"Hi Sebastian, I'm your friend grammar, spelling, and capitalization! You can call me Mr. Grammar."
"Hi Mr. Grammar! What brings you here?"
"Well Sebastian, I heard the sound of whining and thought I'd investigate it - and wouldn't you know it, there's a rambling post full of improper grammar and misspellings."
"But Mr. Grammar, this is the internet. Do we really need grammar and spelling here? I thought we'd have robots for that!"
"Ho, ho, ho. That's what a lot of people think Sebastian, but the truth is, spelling and grammar are more important here on the internet, not less important. The primary communication method is through the written word, and to the degree that the written word is indecipherable, due to bad spelling, lack of punctuation, or what have you, communication is impaired. That is why you should always take the time to post coherently, otherwise people are likely to disregard your message."
"Ah, shucks, thanks Mr. Grammar. By the way, as long as you're here, could you clarify something for me. What does ROLEplaying mean? I always thought it was roleplaying."
"Ho, ho, ho. You see Sebastian, when someone is being pretentious, they will toss around terms like ROLEplaying and ROLLplaying to show that they play the one true way, the way sanctioned by Gary Gygax when he received the original chainmail rules set directly from Thor. The term doesn't actually mean anything, it's just a way to be judgmental. The same thing applies for posting IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to make it sound like YOUR OPINIONS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT. Posting in all caps doesn't somehow infuse your thoughts with relevance, logic, or significance, it just shows that you are capable of moving your pinky over to the caps lock key."
"Thanks Mr. Grammar, this sure has been enlightening."
"Anytime Sebastian, anytime."
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Dudes. People are still finding out about the "debacle." Lettem have some time to lament and gnash teeth or whatever they need to do.
I remember when I found out, I was bouncing off the walls like a psycho spider monkey on crystal meth made by assdemons in a trailer court in Hades. Just give it some time, is all I'm sayin'.
Hilarious, Sebastian, but oh so true here... :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Dudes. People are still finding out about the "debacle." Lettem have some time to lament and gnash teeth or whatever they need to do.
I remember when I found out, I was bouncing off the walls like a psycho spider monkey on crystal meth made by assdemons in a trailer court in Hades. Just give it some time, is all I'm sayin'.
It's really all the crap about 3.0/3.5 that set me off. Every so often some crusty old 2e playing person wanders in here to b$*@* about those damn kids on his lawn, playing that new-fangled 3e game, and how outraged they are at the whole scam. I've got no patience for that crap.
I really want a spider monkey for exactly that reason...
Every time I see Palladium stuff I'm baffled that it's still around and that anyone plays it.
Setting. I love love love the settings in the books. The rules are way more complex than they need to be, pretty hard to teach to a newcomer to RPGs.
I'm plotting a d20 conversion for the Fantasy/Rifts stuff, just because the setting(s) are awesome.
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Dudes. People are still finding out about the "debacle." Lettem have some time to lament and gnash teeth or whatever they need to do.
I remember when I found out, I was bouncing off the walls like a psycho spider monkey on crystal meth made by assdemons in a trailer court in Hades. Just give it some time, is all I'm sayin'.It's really all the crap about 3.0/3.5 that set me off. Every so often some crusty old 2e playing person wanders in here to b@@#! about those damn kids on his lawn, playing that new-fangled 3e game, and how outraged they are at the whole scam. I've got no patience for that crap.
I really want a spider monkey for exactly that reason...
I...see what you're saying now. Never mind.
I just keep seeing kvetchers getting jumped on here and there; it alarms me.
Sebastian, that was... brilliant! Definitely brought a chuckle outta me. Since I've been sick as a dog the last couple days, it was nice to have something to smile about. Thanks!
The rules are way more complex than they need to be, pretty hard to teach to a newcomer to RPGs.
Your not serious are you? I was so hoping Palladium was going to die in what Kevin Siembieda so melodramatically called “the Crises of Treachery” but no such luck. I actually work down the street from their Taylor, MI corporate headquarters location so I was a ground zero when they hit it big with Rifts.
Kevin has since had to eat humble pie and beg his customers to save his company. Funny thing Mr. Siembieda but I seem to remember when you couldn’t turn right or left without suing another company for some alleged Intellectual Property violation; Primal Order ring any bells?
I’m sure I have offended all 5 of Palladiums supporters and to them I’m sorry, my beef is not with you, If it makes you feel any better I too got sucked into the Palladium TMNT, Robotech and Rifts maelstrom, but eventually (I think around 14) I figured out that the Palladium system was broken and couldn’t be fixed and from what I have seen it hasn’t changed in 20 years.
To Mr. Siembieda you reap what you sow and I guess the point to my little rant is that WOTC will also have to face their own “Crises" unless they start listening to their customers.
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I’m sure I have offended all 5 of Palladiums supporters...
To Mr. Siembieda you reap what you sow and I guess the point to my little rant is that WOTC will also have to face their own “Crises" unless they start listening to their customers.
Not offended. I don't find shamen frohe offensive, just a buzzkill.
I Just don't see what one lifelong friend embezzling a company nearly to death has to do with customer satisfaction; I think you go over to their site and there's lotsa satisfied people posting every day. More than 5 anyway.
As if his ego wasn't big enough already, now you've gone and complimented his anti-social behavior...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ring of Five, Tarlene, and Steve: Glad to be of service.
Not offended. I don't find shamen frohe offensive, just a buzzkill.
I Just don't see what one lifelong friend embezzling a company nearly to death has to do with customer satisfaction; I think you go over to their site and there's lotsa satisfied people posting every day. More than 5 anyway.
Agreed. I'm irritated at the OP's assertions as to the relative quality of D&D v. Palladium, but I can't really say that I'm any more impressed by the mirror of that rant. Palladium is a fine company with fine products. It skews a little to the young side, but I can't help but find the whole "I quit playing Palladium when I was 14 and grew up" any more palatable than when I read Whitewolf fans make the same statement about D&D.
I would submit that Palladium's recent adventures are evidence that they do listen to their customers and are rewarded by that listening. They got cheap ass gamers to open up their wallets and donate money to the company to keep it afloat. That suggests to me that they have a high degree of customer loyalty.
As for their prior aggressive IP related actions, I think that's somewhat forgivable given their early experiences with the Robotech license. FASA went out and published an unlicensed rpg based on Robotech. Palladium went through the trouble of getting a license and paying a premium for such license and sued FASA (or, maybe it was the Robotech licensees, I forget). Anyway, the point is that when you've gone down the IP protection route and won once, you're not so afraid to go down it again.
I’m sure I have offended all 5 of Palladiums supporters...
To Mr. Siembieda you reap what you sow and I guess the point to my little rant is that WOTC will also have to face their own “Crises" unless they start listening to their customers.
Not offended. I don't find shamen frohe offensive, just a buzzkill.
I Just don't see what one lifelong friend embezzling a company nearly to death has to do with customer satisfaction; I think you go over to their site and there's lotsa satisfied people posting every day. More than 5 anyway.
The point is in the early days of Palladium when they were the cock of the walk they didn't pay any attention to their customers pleading with them to modify their game system in order to keep the fan base interest.
The Palladium system is centered around one primary attribute “physical prowess” Anyone who has played it knows the character creation pattern “first you take Acrobatics, then Gymnastics and bodybuilding and so on.. For example I rolled a score of a perfect 18 for my PE and then rolled the bonus d6 roll for another 6 giving me a 24 PE!!! I was perhaps one the strongest men on the plant.
However, when I put on my cyclone (playing Robotech at the time) I then had an automatic 30 PE just like everyone else rendering my character creation roles worthless.
I remember Kevin and his crews smugness when he and the others walked into the local comic con’s. When people asked if he was going to do a revised edition to correct the problems in his system he would respond “what errors”.
It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.
As mad as I am at WOTC they at least realized that 2nd edition D&D was dying and in order to keep things afloat they need to evolve.
Dudes. People are still finding out about the "debacle." Lettem have some time to lament and gnash teeth or whatever they need to do.
I remember when I found out, I was bouncing off the walls like a psycho spider monkey on crystal meth made by assdemons in a trailer court in Hades. Just give it some time, is all I'm sayin'.It's really all the crap about 3.0/3.5 that set me off. Every so often some crusty old 2e playing person wanders in here to b~~~# about those damn kids on his lawn, playing that new-fangled 3e game, and how outraged they are at the whole scam. I've got no patience for that crap.
I really want a spider monkey for exactly that reason...
I'll confess... my husband prefers 2nd edition. He loved kits. He thinks combat is just way too complicated for words in the new system. He misses being able to make adventures and feels the new system requires too much of the Dungeon Master in the adventure design aspect.
Sometimes in the depths of writing or editing adventures, I agree with him.
But I love the game.
Oh - and I love Eberron too... it's a cool system and I enjoy it.
Palladium.... not the biggest fan, though TMNT is just cool, and I love Robotech enough to ignore the rules system.
- Ashavan
It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.
As mad as I am at WOTC they at least realized that 2nd edition D&D was dying and in order to keep...
I statements, please.
*I* feel.... not *I* and many others....let the others speak for themselves.
I don't really like the Palladium system, but they have successfully gotten a number of licenses for games and done well with them. Some of what they did with TMNT was brilliant. That doesn't make me any more comfortable using their system, but it does say, to me at least, that it deserves some respect as a system that has lasted a very long time. Palladium has some very strong support, and jibes like saying only five people play it are a disservice. People who don't roleplay make those sorts of remarks about people who play D&D. You might consider that.
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It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.
You're right. If your product line isn't diversified, you deserve to be embezzled to death. Karma proves it.
(sniff sniff) is that smoke? I'm awake.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is my favorite part of I-speak-for-the-gaming-community-and-know-best-how-to-run-a-gaming-company statements. For everyone that says "3e was ridiculous, there should only ever be one true version of the game" you get something like this:
It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.
I can't say I blame any gaming company for not "listening" to their fans. If I had (at least) two factions of fans providing contradictory recommendations couched as factual assertions regarding the market, I'd probably just stick to good old fashioned market data for my decisions as well.
This is my favorite part of I-speak-for-the-gaming-community-and-know-best-how-to-run-a-gaming-company statements. For everyone that says "3e was ridiculous, there should only ever be one true version of the game" you get something like this:
It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.I can't say I blame any gaming company for not "listening" to their fans. If I had (at least) two factions of fans providing contradictory recommendations couched as factual assertions regarding the market, I'd probably just stick to good old fashioned market data for my decisions as well.
Don't be silly Sebastian, I don't speak for the gaming community unlike you I don't really know everything.
Sounds like someone needs a hug!
Don't be silly Sebastian, I don't speak for the gaming community unlike you I don't really know everything.
You may have that tough exterior that you show the world but you really do have a heart of gold!!!
But see, here's where your vaunted "market data" comes up short.
Where in your y=mx+b is "karma" taken into account?
You have convinced me. Palladium is the best thing since buttered bread. I'm heading out right now to pick up the latest supplement.
It’s about Karma, he may have been betrayed by his close friend but I and many former Palladium players feel he got what he deserved and if he had provided a superior or diversified product line his company may not have been so in such a financially weak position instead of riding the same trick pony for the last 20 years.
As mad as I am at WOTC they at least realized that 2nd edition D&D was dying and in order to keep...
I statements, please.
*I* feel.... not *I* and many others....let the others speak for themselves.
I don't really like the Palladium system, but they have successfully gotten a number of licenses for games and done well with them. Some of what they did with TMNT was brilliant. That doesn't make me any more comfortable using their system, but it does say, to me at least, that it deserves some respect as a system that has lasted a very long time. Palladium has some very strong support, and jibes like saying only five people play it are a disservice. People who don't roleplay make those sorts of remarks about people who play D&D. You might consider that.
Fair enough.
Oh, no. I just bought into your whole karma thing. Palladium is tripe!!! Sebastian, let's fight!!!!!
lol, have a great weekend guys!!!
Me too. I had five bucks on you, Heath.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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oh...okay.....Oh, no. I just bought into your whole karma thing. Palladium is tripe!!! Sebastian, let's fight!!!!!No.
That was a set up you furry bastard. You were supposed to say "yes" and then I'd say "no" and then we'd be fighting after all. It's the oldest cartoon/sitcom gag out there. Uncultured Texan.
"Ho, ho, ho. That's what a lot of people think Sebastian, but the truth is, spelling and grammar are more important here on the internet, not less important. The primary communication method is through the written word, and to the degree that the written word is indecipherable, due to bad spelling, lack of punctuation, or what have you, communication is impaired. That is why you should always take the time to post coherently, otherwise people are likely to disregard your message."
Hallelujah, brother!
I am so sick of seeing illiterate gibberish posted on message boards. Anything worth writing is worth writing correctly, concisely, and coherently. Some posts are so bad I can't understand what the author was trying to say. On the rare occasion when I take the trouble to decipher the gibberish, I find that people who aren't able to articulate their thoughts in writing usually don't have thoughts worth reading.I would add to the list of unacceptable practices the use of internet chatroom abbreviations (e.g. IIRC, etc.). The two extra seconds it would take to type something out in proper english makes your message so much more readable and conveys respect for your readers and for yourself.
Thanks for the pithy rejoinder, Sebastian. You made my day.
As I am not an english major, have not attended school in over twenty years, and know not the first thing of punctuation, I must apologize in advance. You will find that most of my words will probably be misspelled, my sentence structure will make you shudder, and my grammer? Well, we'll leave it at that. However, I do not consider myself illiterate. Even the most brilliant may not be able to articulate their thoughts into writing, just as the greatest writers may not be able to speak coherently. It's a poor way to judge a person. Even now, I fear every word I write, every comma I forget, worrying it will be judged in my disfavor.
Only grammer gurus are worth listening to?
Sorry for the rant, I'm cranky today.
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Contributor
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As I am not an english major, have not attended school in over twenty years, and know not the first thing of punctuation, I must apologize in advance.
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Only grammer gurus are worth listening to?
You need not apologize. I am a professional editor, often considered the go-to guy for grammar and mechanics among a sextet of professional and highly qualified editors. I say here with an authoritative, professional, and well-trained voice that a person's grammar, punctuation, and—yes—spelling matter very little in a relaxed atmosphere such as Paizo's messageboards. As long as you can clearly and succinctly communicate your meaning to other readers, you have accomplished your primary goal as a member of this community. :)
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Unless you're Heathy. In which case I can't understand half of what you write. ;D
(Just kidding!)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As long as you can clearly and succinctly communicate your meaning to other readers, you have accomplished your primary goal as a member of this community. :)
Yup. It was really the tone and style of the original post that caused my response regarding grammar. If I can understand what you're saying, you're fine. And if I can't, I normally just skip the post (sorry, Valegrim). The OP managed to mangle a whiny post together with bad grammar, and thus received the business end of my irritation. Steve had already covered the substantive points by the time I arrived, and I couldn't just not b%*%$.
(And truth be told, if a real editor, such as Mike, were to go through my posts above, and in particular my grammar nazi post, he could probably find a half-dozen mistakes.)
Chief Technical Officer
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As I am not an english major, have not attended school in over twenty years, and know not the first thing of punctuation, I must apologize in advance. You will find that most of my words will probably be misspelled, my sentence structure will make you shudder, and my grammer? Well, we'll leave it at that. However, I do not consider myself illiterate. Even the most brilliant may not be able to articulate their thoughts into writing, just as the greatest writers may not be able to speak coherently. It's a poor way to judge a person. Even now, I fear every word I write, every comma I forget, worrying it will be judged in my disfavor.
Only grammer gurus are worth listening to?
I've seen your posts; I'd personally rate your communication skills at "well above average." (And I think there are fewer mistakes in your post than you suspect. You could capitalize "English," correct the spelling of "grammar," and maybe tweak the next-to-last sentence a bit to improve readability, but none of those things actually prevented you from getting your message across.)
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As I am not an english major, have not attended school in over twenty years, and know not the first thing of punctuation, I must apologize in advance. You will find that most of my words will probably be misspelled, my sentence structure will make you shudder, and my grammer? Well, we'll leave it at that. However, I do not consider myself illiterate. Even the most brilliant may not be able to articulate their thoughts into writing, just as the greatest writers may not be able to speak coherently. It's a poor way to judge a person. Even now, I fear every word I write, every comma I forget, worrying it will be judged in my disfavor.
Only grammer gurus are worth listening to?
I was an English major, but if it weren't for the fact that my computer either auto corrects or re-colors in red my hundreds of mistakes per day...well...
It's usually the science majors who complain the most about grammar and syntax...;)
Thomas Wolf wrote Look Homeward, Angel on napkins, receipts, bills and the occasional piece of scrap paper. He misspelled everything...but he had an understanding editor who knew that content counts for more than i before e...