RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
The title says it all.
Unfortunately, I really got into gaming about four years after Dritz first appeared. So by the time I started checking out the 'Net for D&D stuff, Drizt worship was high...ly annoying. Then one of my first gamer friends was an elf-nut (Stays crunchy in blood!) So he'd always play the elf ranger or wizard, preferably with a gryphon to mount, if he couldn't get a battle suit.
So, I have a passionate disliking of elves, although one of my favorite gaming campaigns had me playing an Elf Rogue (for about a month before everything crumbled to dust.) I'm preparing to run a game in a week or two and I even went so far as to make elves a +1 ECL by giving the 2 levels of Adept cause of their innate magical ability (Ask if you want to know.) While this doesnt make them completely unplayable from first level, I certainly hope that it discourages my players from playing them.
What are the plans to make me not hate elves?
Creative Director
|
There are no plans to make people who hate elves like them. Nor do we have plans to make dwarf-haters (like me) like dwarves. Changing elves so that elf-haters like them makes them not elves. It makes no sense to make changes that are guarenteed to alienate fans while only possibly appeasing non-fans.
So if you hate elves now, I'm pretty sure you'll still hate the elves in Pathfinder.
~my eyes gaze over and my stomach growls~ Cookies? Cookies?!? Then I luv 'em! ~thoughtful look~ Do they worship the Demon Queen of Victuals? If not, then they should worship that brain eating Demoness!
There are no plans to make people who hate elves like them. Nor do we have plans to make dwarf-haters (like me) like dwarves. Changing elves so that elf-haters like them makes them not elves. It makes no sense to make changes that are guarenteed to alienate fans while only possibly appeasing non-fans.
So if you hate elves now, I'm pretty sure you'll still hate the elves in Pathfinder.
Heh. I love dwarves! I love having a 20 con. I don't like the Giant vs. dwarf mechanics, which really is something that should get some consideration in Rise of the Runelords, with it's giant emphasis.
What are the plans to make me not hate elves?
I had the same question, except about wizards. What are the plans to make me not hate wizards? Especially those beach-loving wizards. Man, I really can't stand Wizards near the Coast. Can you guys do anything about that?
El Skootro
Short of a military airstrike, I don't think much can be done about the coastal nazi-er uhh, wizards.
|
~my eyes gaze over and my stomach growls~ Cookies? Cookies?!? Then I luv 'em! ~thoughtful look~ Do they worship the Demon Queen of Victuals? If not, then they should worship that brain eating Demoness!
The Demon Queen of Victuals......Sounds like a goddess to be immortalized in Pathfinder! Lilith would love that and I say that would be a cool homage to the messageboard people!
FH
You hate elves 'cause your friend liked them? 0.o
Your friend also liked D&D, apparently -- which makes me wonder why you're still here at all, going by that logic.
-The Gneech
Y'know considering how often this topic comes up, I'm suprized how surly everyone is being about it. I figured it would come up, especially with the current atmosphere of "tell us what you want--all we have is the SRD" going around recently. Elves tend to be one of the big irritations for a lot of people. I don't see it as strange logic that someone exposed to a bunch of really ostentatious elf characters could still like D&D but still be bothered by elves because of the bad portrayal.
Truth be told though, the strength of the new Pathfinder setting is to refine what's classically good about D&D, not to take it in crazy weird directions. There's a lot of "neopolitan multicolor dragons with death ray eyes" strangeness being suggested. Frankly the setting will be best if they stick very close to the classic ideas. Now I guarantee there will be some new spin and flavor to everything in Pathfinder. Elves will probably get a touch of the magic flavor too. I can't say it will turn an elf hater into an elf lover, but I am certainly anxious to see how things will be different.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
What exactly do you hate about elves?
Strange as this may sound, at first I wasn't exactly sure how to answer this question, but after some time while I listed the elves I do like I came up with the answer. I hate the drow due to all of the, seemingly to me anyways, bandwagonism of their fanboys & girls. And I dislike normal elves more for the way I've always seen them played/portayed in the D&D games I've played in. So what do I like? Here's the list of elves I've liked.
Gelflings in Dark Crystal. As much as you'd like to deny and as much as Jim Henson had tried to disguise this they are elves. What makes them interesting for me anyways is the way they've been defined. The things done to them by the Skeksis gives a better understanding of what has shaped the race as a whole.
The Moredhel (Dark Brothers) from Magician and other books by Raymond Feist. I like the idea of a band of elves that migrate between seasons to more hospitable lands and I liked the idea of Elves that are more aggressive when contacting other Races.
Tad William's Thorn, Memory & Sorrow trilogy. I like both what he did with the elven court and the main villains. It certainly made the books interesting.
M:tG's Elvish cards from the Unglued set. Elves...dressed up as Elvis? GOLD! But then I'm also a Maxi (Soulcaliber II) player.
And... My Elves. This may sound a little weird/egotistical but I like the path I've decided to take with elves. Here it is:
There is but one known elven kingdom, Materia. Materia is also what learned wizards call the essence of Magic. My elves are more closely tied to the essence of magic and how it is being used. When the other Races began corrupting magic with evil, the elves felt the change in the nature of magic. Now the Elves are gathering as many evil/corrupt magic items as they can find/trade for so they can remove/cleanse the magical essence from them. I may even have the Elves slowly being corrupted by this. Plus how do the other kingdoms see the elves if they're trading for evil magic?
I've been puzzlng over why anyone would hate Elvis...I'm going to have a lie down now...
They're all 3 inches tall, live in a tree, and make delicious, delicious cookies.
If only the Kebler elves all looked like Stacy Keibler, then everyone would love them! :-)
dwarf-haters (like me)
WHAT?! Noooo...... okay, I guess. I personally love dwarves.
And elves!
There seem to be two things that piss most people off more than anything else about elves.
1. Lack of definition. Elves are good at everything. They're good at crafting, they love nature, they love arcane magic, they have great faith in their gods, they're good at sword fighter, they're good at fighting with two swords, they're good at archery, they're ancient and always/often depecited as the first race and the best race and the masters of blah, blah, blah. They always seem to be able to fit into any society, and thus often seem to have none of their own.
World of Warcraft has given me great inspiration. Wood elves = night elves, high elves = blood elves (but not so evil). At least in architecture. (Oh, and I got rid of the statistical difference between the two races and totally eliminated all other elves; it's all "fluff" now).
Limit their arts, crafts, and entertainment somewhat. Just like dwarves aren't known for their painting, elves shouldn't be great at metalsmithing. Elves do archery, dancing, fencing/dueling, painting, sculpting (for art, not for practicality like dwarves, and they often use wood instead of stone), winemaking, paintings, and poetry. And that's about it. Anything else is as unusual as a dwarven bard.
Play up their grace aspect. They prefer bows and light weapons they can use Weapon Finesse with. Two weapon fighting is popular because of its beauty and artistry as much as its practicality. Make the double sword a common elven weapon I admit I'm stealing that from WoW again, but it works.
Also, consider making all elves matriarchal. The drow already are- perhaps their surface cousins are similar? The concept of the Elf Queen isn't too unusual already. Play to it.
I like to think that elves would look to animals in nature as symbols of themselves, and the animals they would choose are felines and raptors (the birds, not the dinosaurs). The graceful cunning of a panther, the quick strike. The speed and soaring spirit of the hawk, or the wisdom, patience, and swift silence of an owl. Look to these for inspiration with elves and it really helps "focus" them.
Additionally, think about making elves active at all times. Again like felines, they wake and sleep at various times of the day and night. An elven city is never fully awake, nor fully asleep. Helps explain their racial abilities in the RAW, too. Celestial bodies would be another thing they emphasize- both the powerful, majestic sun and the subtle, mystical stars and moon.
In essence, what I'm saying is do for elves what you'd done for goblins and kobolds. Actually give them a culture of their own, rather than the unfocused, loosely defined mass of lore that surrounds them in traditional D&D. Pare them down to a more consice core concept and a lot of people may be drawn back to them.
Alright, enough of my ramble about what to do with elves.
2. A lot of people seem to get turned off by elves because of the number of people that make elf PCs and butcher them in roleplaying. Like my above point, they play them as completely human but with different stats. Or, there have just been too many elves or they were overpowered (such as in earlier editions of the game). That's just baggage from bad past experiences, and while it can be hard to drop, that's what has to happen before these people come around to tolerating, or even liking, elves. In the defense of the players who massacre the racial identity of elves, a lot of that is because they lack a racial identity to play to that's actually viable (typically it only goes as far as being a snob, which isn't very endearing).
I enourage Pathfinder to not use elves lightly. Don't just throw them around all over the place without consideration to the fact that this is another race that should have its own culture.
Wow, way too long of a post; but I really like elves and "working" on them
Saern: You have a lot of good ideas. Might I suggest writing an Ecology type article for elses and sumitting it to Paiso once they get the submission stats to us.
I actually did just that, more or less; I took the inspiration and wrote up a more detailed, consise "review" of elves. I'd be happy to submit it if the folks at Paizo are interested, whenever they've got their submission rules together (where exactly would that be, and when is are they expected to be formalized?).
My write-up has mention of some custom elven gods that I've made, but only indirectly. Have the Paizo staff put much thought into elven gods? If not, here are some personal recommendations:
Celestial bodies. As stated before, I see the elves as "cat napping" on an off throughout the day, and so they have exposure to the night as well as the day. They consider the moon as the embodiment of their highest deity, a sort of mother goddess. The sun is her consort, and the stars are the souls of the dead.
Also, like I said before, felines and birds of prey. I see the wood elves as having their own deity, the elven nature deity, who is embodied in panthers and the like. Eagles and owls represent the high elven god. Both are son(s) and/or daughter(s) of the moon and sun deities.
|
I like the "elves" from the old stories about Finn McCool and others;
forces of nature were those sidhe; not people with pointy ears who were your buddies because the orcs are about in massive numbers.
They were dangerous like magic or nature. And there wasn't quite the divide between magic and nature in those stories. To have brookings with these folk was perilous in and of itsself to men.
I feel that that has been diluted. I think it possible that may be part of the problem.
As an elf fan, I concur with many of Saern's recommendations, although I've done some slightly different things with elves in my own homebrew world.
As Saern says, elves need a distinctive culture. I think matriarchy is an awesome idea--many groups of elves in my homebrew are matriarchal and have various interesting ways of figuring out inheritance. And they should have a genuinely sylvan culture, except for perhaps the gray elves, who should live in isolated but architecturally fabulous cities and preserve ancient lore and ancient crafts no longer practiced by ordinary elves. Their society should reflect their chaotic nature by being split among numerous small principalities that are virtually independent of each other.
Another thing that would help elves have flavor, is by making them more isolated and more magical, with the magic focusing on enchantment and illusion (glamours, in the original sense of the word, not flashy stuff. An encounter with elves should be both memorable and perilous. Elves should be distrusted by most humans, and half-elves should be quite rare. Elves should mostly keep to themselves, and adventurer elves shouldn't encounter very many other elves when they are in human lands, to the point where people are either very suspicious or very awed by their presence. Reserve several corners of the world for elves. Or place communities of elves in every forest, and make forests places where human kings rarely dare to make territorial claims and commoners fear to tread, even if they need the timber and game that are plentiful there. You don't need to change the rules to make elves more magical--just make them more isolated and enchanting.
I really like your ideas, Saern, about the way an elven city is never truly awake or asleep. I've often seen them behaving much like cats as well and I think this aspect of the elven culture is never represented. My elven characters have always been very energetic but prone to running out of steam quickly and needing a nap before going back to the adventure at hand. And if they don't get their nap, they get fool hardy or overly cautious, depending on the elf.
I also think another aspect of elves that is also very overlooked is their religion. I've thought of the high elves as purists who worship Corellon (or who ever is going to fill the role of the creator and paragon elf) exclusively while the wood/wild/aquatic elves are more totemistic and worship Nature as a whole, kind of like Native Americans or other tribal religions.
A problem I have with elven characters is that they're Mary/Gary Sues as often as anything, which is just annoying and bad roleplaying. "Races of the Wild" just enforced this stereotype even more.
Despite this, I still love elves and like to play them. I blame it on LOTR.
I like the "elves" from the old stories about Finn McCool and others; forces of nature were those sidhe; not people with pointy ears who were your buddies because the orcs are about in massive numbers. They were dangerous like magic or nature. And there wasn't quite the divide between magic and nature in those stories. To have brookings with these folk was perilous in and of itsself to men.
I feel that that has been diluted. I think it possible that may be part of the problem.
I was going to say what I dislike about elves, but it's right here. Unlike Heathansson, this is exactly what I don't like about elves. You have all the basic races, half-orcs to halflings--heck even a bunch of the new races like goliaths and raptorans. They have their own cultures but are more or less like people--just meat and blood folk doing the best they can to carve a safe spot for their families out of the wilderness.
Not elves, see, they're special. Just elves, and nothing else. Elves are an embodiment of magical power and woe to the person who deals with them uncarefully. They live in balance with nature, and all the little rocks and deer are their friends.
Bleh! I hate that.
For one it doesn't match the stats, which suggest that elves are, in fact, not special. They are folk. Not humans with pointy ears any more than dwarves are greedy short humans with bad hygene--but they share in the common experiences of their fellow races. They're on our level. If this isn't the case, if they really are some cosmic manifestation of magic or nature or some such, then they shouldn't even be a player character race. Heck most monsters don't have the mystique elves have. If they are all that, they shouldn't even be monsters; they should be myths.
The way I play it is that all the elf lore is just puffery. Elves like to think they're special, that they're decended from fey, that they live in some special harmony with nature. Truth is that while their culture is different, it's no less harmful to nature--they just live in smaller communities with less industry. Building homes into living trees tends to screw up the tree and weaken it to disease and kill it as much as cutting it down--just slower. Elven weapons aren't better, just prettier--in fact often times elven craft results in weapons with such slender designs and made out of such organic materials that they're actually less durable than dwarven or even human designs.
Most of the stories are just meant to scare other folk into leaving their settlements alone, or are for the consumption of tourists so they can feel better about having to pay "non-person" tax for visiting elven areas. That's my druthers. It's all just folklore and puff from a race that can't concieve of themselves as the same as all these other sods--but they are, and in a straight fight a dwarf would clobber them and make them beg for mercy from their high and fluffy flower gods.
I agree to an extent with Grimcleaver. Elves should be "folk" with details on their government and lifestyles just like everyone else. I think another thing that angers a lot of people is that elves per the RAW seem to just "be" for several centuries and not really do anything exept wander through the woods as nature-boys.
No, elves have to eat, too. They may prefer berries to venison, but they still have to grow the things. They still have to make clothes, and all those fancy swords. I definitely agree that elves should not be master craftsmen when it comes to the durability of their weapons; at least, not enough that a dwarven weapon isn't obviously superior. No, elves are just good at making things light, easy to wield, and accurate; a completely different aspect of smithing from what dwarves do.
I also agree that I don't like elves to be too primal. They do live more harmoniously with nature... but that's because they live in forests and are quasi-arboreal. They need to make sure the forests aren't logged and everything remains in balance, for their own survival.
The thing that makes elves special is that they are and extremely old race, and have had a lot of time to collect much history and theories on magic. They do have an edge over the other races, but then again, so do dwarves. It's just a different form. I like elves to have a mystique, but not an impenetrable one that just ends up coming off like "we're too awesome for you to possibly understand."
However, I see elven "lumberjacks" as something else entirely. The race is good with magic: Elf wants a building? Well, if he's using stone (I equate high elves to what the MM calls gray elves), he first uses magic to shift the location of the trees so he doesn't have to cut them down. Also, his house isn't going to be amazingly sturdy, but it will be pretty.
I see wood elves as either using druidic magic to swell trees large enough that they can then be turned into homes (via more druidic magic, leaving the tree quite alive). Should they not want a living home, the druids can cause trees to grow extra limbs, big sturdy ones, but then also painlessly separate them from the tree to using in building the house. Take more time than just cutting the thing down? You betcha! But time is one thing that elves have, and should be emphasized.
So much of the elven stereotype only goes as far as a flighty, snobby hippie, or they don't get roleplayed with a unique society at all. Both are quite unsatisfactory.
I agree with a lot of the statements from people above, particularly Peruhain and YeuxAndI. I arrived at some of the same conclusions about elves, and other things you said are great new insights.
Good thread! I'm sure the folks at Paizo will do us right with the elves. :)
A problem I have with elven characters is that they're Mary/Gary Sues as often as anything, which is just annoying and bad role playing. "Races of the Wild" just enforced this stereotype even more.
Nice reference. Never really thought of it that way but I completely agree. Allowing the players to change eye and hair colour just makes it worse to boot. Furthermore we are talking about 20+ year olds. I'll forgive the 13 year old set this behaviour. Hell it might even be good for them in its way. But by the time your 20...Ugh, I so hate Elves.
|
|
Well then . . .
Add me to the list of people who dislike the way elves are regularly presented.
Sappy, tree-hugging, flit-abouts, that invented all magic, and lived in peace and harmony with all of creation until men came along, stole their magic, and destroyed everything.
Add to that the whole surface elf vs. drow war, where every new subrace (at least in Greyhawk) winds up being a pack of draft-dodgers, outlawed, or forsaken, or whatever.
Bleah!
If elves have to be "one with nature" at least make them crazed forces of nature like the Birthright elves with their Gheallie Sidhe! None of this sitting around, playing at dancing around buttercups. Unleash the fury!
And enough with elves as the source of every bit of culture as well. Nice bit of subtle racism there, relegating humans to the status of cultural parasites while "allowing" them to be the dominant race. Let's see some elves with their own distinct culture for a chance, not just a constant series of weak real world nature-lover knockoffs.
It is time for new elves!
Shallow roleplaying is shallow roleplaying. A flighty, tree-hugging elf is no worse than a gruff, surly dwarf or a cowardly, light-fingered halfling. Giving each race a culture and history can help, but it really comes down to the DM or player getting inside the character's head and then acting the part.
Elves are conservationists because their long lifespans let them see the consequences of "quick and dirty" solutions to living. Their lifespan also means they can spend a decade or so to implement the "best" solution or even outlive a short-term problem. Art and learning are core elements of elven culture because there is always more to create and learn, which is important for a people who measure lifetimes in centuries. Magic is prized because it can reduce or eliminate the negative consequences of providing food, protection, shelter, and trade goods, as well as combining art and learning in one discipline. Play elves from that perspective and people will have less problem with them.
It also depends on the involvement in the world - in the dragonlance game I'm running, people really don't like the elves... and for good reason, really. The elves are extremely self-serving in that setting. If a problem doesn't impact them personally, they ignore it, and when it does, they try to get the PCs to do the potentially suicidal mission(s) while the elves run away.
|
|
Shallow roleplaying is shallow roleplaying. A flighty, tree-hugging elf is no worse than a gruff, surly dwarf or a cowardly, light-fingered halfling. Giving each race a culture and history can help, but it really comes down to the DM or player getting inside the character's head and then acting the part.
Elves are conservationists because their long lifespans let them see the consequences of "quick and dirty" solutions to living. Their lifespan also means they can spend a decade or so to implement the "best" solution or even outlive a short-term problem. Art and learning are core elements of elven culture because there is always more to create and learn, which is important for a people who measure lifetimes in centuries. Magic is prized because it can reduce or eliminate the negative consequences of providing food, protection, shelter, and trade goods, as well as combining art and learning in one discipline. Play elves from that perspective and people will have less problem with them.
Conservation has little to do with lifespan. Europeans with 50 year lifespans recognized the effects of deforestation in the 11th century and worked to limit and counteract it.
And quick and dirty vs slow and deliberate fades to irrelevance when it means the difference between starvation today and feasting two years after your population is almost wiped out by famine.While a people may outlive a major climate shift, thousands or millions of the individuals don't.
Art and learning have been core elements of numerous human cultures, all of which measured lifespans in decades. Conversely, many human cultures with extremely advanced development of art and learning deliberately declared that they had "perfected" both, and that there was nothing left to develop in either, merely rote learning and imitation. Lifespan of the individual is irrelevant, it is the lifespan of the culture that drives that most often, and with elves, such decadence is highly suggested.
Magic in such a construct assumes the same position as technology, and technology always comes with consequences. In the case of magic there is inevitably research into necromancy and demonology (or fiendology to be generic), to even the simplest area effect evocations. In the long run, there is no "safe" magic.
Present elves taking that into consideration and people will have less problem with them. No race should be declared "perfect" for any reason. It diminishes the ability to suspend disbelief to accept the other fantastic elements in relation to them.
Whenever I think Elf I think the poor insectoid looking elf in the players handbook.
I felt a bit of pity for Elves, but then one of the players in our group kept playing nothing but them and would always cause trouble. So now I just hate them.
Dear Paizo,
I'm bored by gnomes. I just don't see the point. Can you help?
Thanks,
Bored in Minnesota
Whenever I think Elf I think the poor insectoid looking elf in the players handbook.
I felt a bit of pity for Elves, but then one of the players in our group kept playing nothing but them and would always cause trouble. So now I just hate them.
That seems to be a lot of the source for elf-hate: overpowered elves in previous editions of the game and/or an overabundance of people playing them, and doing a poor job of it. To me, that's like hating a book you listened to on tape because you didn't like the way the narrator read it. Doesn't seem to make much sense.
I also don't see why elves draw so much flak over other races. There is just as much grounds to object to gnomes, dwarves, halflings, and half-orcs, but only elves get this much ridicule. I just don't understand it.
I don't like half-orcs:
Not because they are overpowered or anything of that kind, but because they seem too common. Both among players and NPCs.
I don't like half-orcs:
Not because they are overpowered or anything of that kind, but because they seem too common. Both among players and NPCs.
I actually agree- considering the highly unusual circumstances that would result in such a being, I don't see them as being a viable race- they should be extremely uncommon. I tend to try and use just plain-old orcs instead. Just like there are evil dwarves and elves, sometimes you get a good (or at least neutral) orc.
Nevertheless, you'll see threads pop up from time to time (similar to this one) where huge debates over the merits of elves take place, yet no one seems to do it with any other race.
That seems to be a lot of the source for elf-hate: overpowered elves in previous editions of the game and/or an overabundance of people playing them, and doing a poor job of it. To me, that's like hating a book you listened to on tape because you didn't like the way the narrator read it. Doesn't seem to make much sense.
I also don't see why elves draw so much flak over other races. There is just as much grounds to object to gnomes, dwarves, halflings, and half-orcs, but only elves get this much ridicule. I just don't understand it.
I tried to be reasonable the first 10 or so elven characters the guy created. But when you have to sit by and listen to the Elf attempt to steal a wand from a mages item shop, and get himself nearly killed. You just stop caring at that point. That wasn't the worst idea he had, it got much, much worse. He literally went through 1 elf every 2 or 3 sessions. Sessions, not games. I was so very happy when the DM finally got fed up with him.
Normally it wouldn't be reasonable to hate ALL elves because of this guys behavior. But when your only experiences with elves is like that. Then you tend to stereotype them in that light. Using your analogy, if I listened to books on tape and all the different narrators did a horrible job of them. I would stop listening to narrated books and read them myself, coming to the assumption that taped books are stupid.
Well, I can see how that player could get annoying for you and make you relate all elves to his behavior, but I would encourage you to revise your opinion about them. I had a couple of players who would always be barbarians (at least one of them, if not both) and do amazingly stupid things. I still love barbarians, however.
Similarly, I always play spellcasters, usually a wizard. Now, I typically don't cause trouble or run around being an idiot like this player did (at least, I try not to); nevertheless, my point is that my friends have never had their opinion of wizards influenced by what I did with them (unfortunately, because if they were paying attention, their's might not have been such dismal failures).
In the end, your opinion is your opinion, and when it comes to what you think about elves, it will hardly alter anyone's life if you like them or hate them. However, there's always the possibility that you'll have a player who wants to be an elf but knows that you dislike them and therefore changes his mind. Again, not a huge deal, but it would be more equitable to him if you were to re-evaluate this stance on elves.
To each their own!
Well, I can see how that player could get annoying for you and make you relate all elves to his behavior, but I would encourage you to revise your opinion about them. I had a couple of players who would always be barbarians (at least one of them, if not both) and do amazingly stupid things. I still love barbarians, however.
Similarly, I always play spellcasters, usually a wizard. Now, I typically don't cause trouble or run around being an idiot like this player did (at least, I try not to); nevertheless, my point is that my friends have never had their opinion of wizards influenced by what I did with them (unfortunately, because if they were paying attention, their's might not have been such dismal failures).
In the end, your opinion is your opinion, and when it comes to what you think about elves, it will hardly alter anyone's life if you like them or hate them. However, there's always the possibility that you'll have a player who wants to be an elf but knows that you dislike them and therefore changes his mind. Again, not a huge deal, but it would be more equitable to him if you were to re-evaluate this stance on elves.
To each their own!
Yeah, I do try to be reasonable with it. I just have a lot of bad experience with them. I don't expect anyone else who plays an elf to behave like the person I have delt with in the past. Because god, I hope there are not more people that play that way. But I would have reservations, but I would only pass judgement if/when given any real reason to. I normally just keep it to myself. Because D&D is for everyone to have fun in their own way.
Because god, I hope there are not more people that play that way.
Oh, there are, no doubt about it. =/
I really, really, wanted to have all the elves in the Pathfinder campaign setting be enslaved.
Really.
Unfortunately, no one else seemed to like the idea ;)
Anyway, elves will indeed be fairly traditional in our campaign setting, more's the pity. Well, at least I can still have fun illustrating them
I really, really, wanted to have all the elves in the Pathfinder campaign setting be enslaved.
Really.
Unfortunately, no one else seemed to like the idea ;)
Anyway, elves will indeed be fairly traditional in our campaign setting, more's the pity. Well, at least I can still have fun illustrating them
That would have been really cool.
Maybe they'll let you have a kingdom where all elves are enslaved?
- Ashavan
|
|
I really, really, wanted to have all the elves in the Pathfinder campaign setting be enslaved.
Really.
Unfortunately, no one else seemed to like the idea ;)
Anyway, elves will indeed be fairly traditional in our campaign setting, more's the pity. Well, at least I can still have fun illustrating them
Isn't there a manga like that? ;)
If we're going to have traditional elves, can we at least have a new take on the Drow/elf wars? I'd love to see the elves being at fault for once.
How closely have you read the Forgotten Realms history? Okay, yeah, the Ilythiiri were bad, but the Vyshaan were pretty nasty themselves . . .
If only the Kebler elves all looked like Stacy Keibler, then everyone would love them! :-)
That goes a looooong way toward explaining the existance of half-elves.....
Oh, and Saern - who the heck slipped you my campaign notes on elves??!??
Oh, and I took a totally different tack in my latest world-idea... humans are on the way *out* and the Elves have been experiencing a boom in population, so they are expanding out and taking over the humans' old lands. Modeled their culture roughly on feudal Japanese, too. Elven monks, samurai, ninja, etc. Humans got stuck with the more "primitive" classes like Sorcerer, Shaman, Ranger, Scout, and Barbarian (favored class). Was making for an interesting world...
|
Well I for one think Pathfinder's elves might be quite interesting thanks to... Pathfinder's Ghouls!
Those Wayne Reynold's ghouls look mighty cool with their long tongues, sharp claws, lithe bodies and pointy ears.
Hearsay? Pointy ears!
Ghouls are linked to elves? Seems logical given the fact that elves are immune to a ghouls paralysis. Seems so darn logical I wonder why nobody else made that logical before!
So.. ghouls were elves?
Would be cool if elves would be a cursed folk.. that -2 con WILL make you sick one day, or heck, all the time.
Gloomy sickly frail olvenfolk, plus they DONT SLEEP! (didnt knew that now did ya?)
If only the Kebler elves all looked like Stacy Keibler, then everyone would love them! :-)That goes a looooong way toward explaining the existance of half-elves.....
Oh, and Saern - who the heck slipped you my campaign notes on elves??!??
Oh, and I took a totally different tack in my latest world-idea... humans are on the way *out* and the Elves have been experiencing a boom in population, so they are expanding out and taking over the humans' old lands. Modeled their culture roughly on feudal Japanese, too. Elven monks, samurai, ninja, etc. Humans got stuck with the more "primitive" classes like Sorcerer, Shaman, Ranger, Scout, and Barbarian (favored class). Was making for an interesting world...
Many bothans died to bring me those notes...
Well I for one think Pathfinder's elves might be quite interesting thanks to... Pathfinder's Ghouls!
Those Wayne Reynold's ghouls look mighty cool with their long tongues, sharp claws, lithe bodies and pointy ears.
Hearsay? Pointy ears!Ghouls are linked to elves? Seems logical given the fact that elves are immune to a ghouls paralysis. Seems so darn logical I wonder why nobody else made that logical before!
So.. ghouls were elves?
Would be cool if elves would be a cursed folk.. that -2 con WILL make you sick one day, or heck, all the time.
Gloomy sickly frail olvenfolk, plus they DONT SLEEP! (didnt knew that now did ya?)
I think you're on to something here!
Shallow roleplaying is shallow roleplaying. A flighty, tree-hugging elf is no worse than a gruff, surly dwarf or a cowardly, light-fingered halfling. Giving each race a culture and history can help, but it really comes down to the DM or player getting inside the character's head and then acting the part.
Elves are conservationists because their long lifespans let them see the consequences of "quick and dirty" solutions to living. Their lifespan also means they can spend a decade or so to implement the "best" solution or even outlive a short-term problem. Art and learning are core elements of elven culture because there is always more to create and learn, which is important for a people who measure lifetimes in centuries. Magic is prized because it can reduce or eliminate the negative consequences of providing food, protection, shelter, and trade goods, as well as combining art and learning in one discipline. Play elves from that perspective and people will have less problem with them.
Conservation has little to do with lifespan. Europeans with 50 year lifespans recognized the effects of deforestation in the 11th century and worked to limit and counteract it.
And quick and dirty vs slow and deliberate fades to irrelevance when it means the difference between starvation today and feasting two years after your population is almost wiped out by famine.
While a people may outlive a major climate shift, thousands or millions of the individuals don't.Art and learning have been core elements of numerous human cultures, all of which measured lifespans in decades. Conversely, many human cultures with extremely advanced development of art and learning deliberately declared that they had "perfected" both, and that there was nothing left to develop in either, merely rote learning and imitation. Lifespan of the individual is irrelevant, it is the lifespan of the culture that drives that most often, and with elves, such decadence is highly suggested.
Magic in such a construct assumes the same position as technology, and technology always comes with consequences. In the case of magic there is inevitably research into necromancy and demonology (or fiendology to be generic), to even the simplest area effect evocations. In the long run, there is no "safe" magic.
Present elves taking that into consideration and people will have less problem with them. No race should be declared "perfect" for any reason. It diminishes the ability to suspend disbelief to accept the other fantastic elements in relation to them.
Elves are no more "perfect" than any other culture. However, the thumbnail sketch I gave above gives a foundation to the generic elf culture as presented in the core rules. Themes of corruption and decadance abound in most settings' depictions of elves and elven history/myth. If nothing else, there is a tendency toward isolationism and a false sense of superiority.