For there is strength in numbers. Unite against WotC! It may not have occured to them that by doing this they would anger many of those that read and treasure these magazines but they have. I have read many people's posts on several other thread discussing this and have found a great deal of anger directed at WotC. I say that we boycott WotC! I won't buy anything of theirs from a site or store that would give them profit (places like Ebay are okay). I have never actually held a subscription to either magazine for money reasons but I have always read issues and picked them up when I could find them cheap and I love them. I am going to send furious emails to WotC telling them where they can stick their 'online content' and will spread the word. If anyone else agrees with me email WotC, post on other sites frequented by D&D players and let them know, encourage them to rebel!
I don't want 'online content'! I want a real magazine! I want a magazine published by the talented people at Paizo! Not some online crap. I want to have a magazine that I can take with me when I go somewhere! Hit Wotc in the wallet! GIVE PAIZO THEIR LISCENSE BACK!!!!! Whos with me!?!!?!
Just because the man was shy in funds and doesn't have a subscription doesn't mean he can't be fired up. Let people vent, it's healthy. There's no reason for us to turn on each other.
I subscribe to both magazines, have bought hundreds of minis, and my children play with hasbro toys, I doubt I am the only thirty something gamer who can say that. There are enough of us to get wotc to at least take notice.
I subscribe to both magazines, have bought hundreds of minis, and my children play with hasbro toys, I doubt I am the only thirty something gamer who can say that. There are enough of us to get wotc to at least take notice.
Actually, I'm a 40 something gamer who can say the same thing (except that I probably have a thousand minis...what can I say, they're like Lays Potato Chips). I've already told WoTC that they have to earn back my trust (and my dollars).
Did I say thirty something? I meant twenty something of course! Actually I'm on the brink of forty something, but I lost count while I was gaming.
Aw f--k.
I was so happy to get my internet working today and now this news screwed up my day.
And to think that I was just thinking, "Oh, no! My subscription is gonna run out soon." I guess that doesn't matter anymore.
I've been buying them from stores for years, this is the first year we were able to afford a subscription to both, "sigh" I guess changes are inevitable.
That's okay Lara, your avatar is hot.
Ahh, but my character is even hotter!
And does your character lock herself in the bathroom oblivious to the sanitary inconvenience of her family members for an hour before she heads out and cracks heads with a bunch of stinky adventurers?
Nope, I generally don't lock myself in the bathroom. Heading out with stinky adventurers is something I commonly do though.
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Magazines get cancelled all the time, folks. It's life. The end of an era, maybe, but not the end of the world.
As someone who's been reading and buying Dragon since #109 I'm glad the magazine (or whatever it will be in the future) is going electronic. My hard drive has much more space for PDFs than the space under the bed in my guest room does for back issues.
Every time D&D, or some facet of it, has evolved, it's bothered people I've known and they've stopped playing, buying new products, whatever. First to Second edition? Stopped playing. Second to third? Stopped playing. Those are just the two most obvious changes to the game, but the list is almost endless. Change isn't always a bad thing though, and with D&D, having gamed in the dark ages when it took a miracle and a guide wearing a fedora and armed with a bullwhip to find a rule in the first edition DMG, I know when change happens it's usually for the better.
I was a little upset when I read the news yesterday, but not because I felt betrayed in any way. Dragon was a low-grade institution. Sure, I'll miss the ritual of waiting impatiently for the new issue to arrive every month. But now I don't have to worry about issues coming in late, being lost in the mail, being ripped by the postal worker cramming it into the mailbox.
I don't think the angry D&D players need to unite. There doesn't need to be a boycott or an uprising, and no one needs to take the pitchforks and torches out of storage. Not yet, anyway. At least give give the new format a chance. The strangest thing in the world could be that it's actually something that people like. Maybe even more than its predecessor.
Am I upset that WotC screwed Paizo? No, I don't know that that's what happened (though I can speculate).
Am I upset that I'm losing access to two magazines every month? Disappointed, maybe, but not mad. Heck, I have so much stuff to read, that there is something of a silver lining in this black cloud from my point of view.
Am I upset that a tradition is ending? A little, but I'm not adverse to change.
What I'm upset about is WotC's decsion to take the content online, as part of what is being affectionately called their "electronic thingy". An apt term, I think. Almost every venture in software and online content that they've done has run from disaster to not worthy of mention.
If they had made Paizo do the mag in electronic form, that wouldn't be as bad. If they had taken back the license and put out the mags themselves, I'd have been okay with that.
But this decision smells like a stinker to me. A big mistake, I think. I wish they'd have risked something other than the Dragon and Dungeon brands on what will likely end up a failure.
It is the irony I must muse upon. My subscription ends on that fatefull day.
Irony indeed.
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I agree with Agamon that this onlie content will be a load of crap. the same kind of junk that they have on wizards.com. I think that this is just a bad thing for gaming. Now we will have no magazine and no REAL sources new content besides wizards... i know that there are still 3rd party publishers but 3rd party books worth getting dont come out with great regularity. I can only hope that some enterprising company will decide to take a chance and fill the very real need for a d20 magazine... but it will never be the same as Dragon.. i mean man i grew up reading this magazine... this is the end of an era-- i wonder what WOTC will screw up next?
I think it premature to dislike the electronic version of the magazine. Just because Paizo is no longer producing it does not mean that it must necessarily be bad. There are some people at wizards that are creative, intelligent, adept writers and creators. They took their love of gaming and made a career of it.
I am still an angry D&D player, not because I am unhappy with a digital model, although I am! I am angry with the way WotC made the announcement. It was confusing and hurtful and a clear example of fugly customer relations.
I love the magazines dearly. I was poor in South Africa for much of my life. I went hungry once to buy a Dragon. (I simply had to have the deck of many things) The asinine announcement on the wizards site was basically read by me to mean:
I, a suit you have never heard of, think that something you love is broken, so we are killing it to make room for a hyperspace bypass. You are utterly irrelevant to our decision and we are going to ignore you on our forums until you go away.
Reagardless of the actual wording, that was what I read.
I'll admit to not being a GM or gamer enough to go out and buy Dragon, or more preferably for me Dungeon, month to month, mostly cause of lack of interest in psionics or whatnot. But what I do have is enough magazines to help support any game I want to run. I think what I will miss the most about Dragon, and you might call me a bit superficial, will be the artwork that accompanies those campaigns. Somehow I just don't think that will have the same sorta effect on an online format. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I also think that with going to the online format that the voices of players will be lost in the sheer numbers of people responding. Seriously, how many message boards will someone actually read weekly even monthly before it seems to become a bunch of noise instead of people try to make a point as to what they'd like to see in their developement of the gaming world. Cause lets face it. We are the gaming world. If there is one thing I'd hope to see come out of it is like an online 3rd edition compilation of NPC characters through adventures, or maybe even a compilation of the unique monsters throughout the magazine's history. Shouldn't be too hard to "cut and paste."
I looked back over all of the stuff wizards has ever posted on-line, and the only thing we got any use out of was a surprisingly fun high-level adventure they posted, called "Thunder Below." So I looked for the author of that adventure, with an eye towards finding more of his or her stuff... Enough said.
My displeasure with this decision isn't based solely on this decision. In my letter to WotC's CS department, I explained that the reason I was ending my patronage of their products was based on a pattern of responses by the company. I cited this event, along with the silence during the SWRPG hiatus and many other episodes, where WotC came across as being very arrogant and disdainful of its customers. In short, I was tired of the company treating us like some kind of dogsbody. Granted, yes, there are those who overlook this behavior feeling that Wizards' products outweigh the negatives. Personally, just as I won't eat in a restaurant or shop in a store — regardless of the quality of their product — where I'm treated poorly, I refuse to do business with WotC until they show signs that they are committed to good customer service and good customer relations...
One thing to contemplate, dear readers, is the possibility that WotC may be in the opening phases of downsizing and possibly unloading more intellectual properties to outside concerns. Remember when they allowed the Ravenloft IP to be shipped out, and the excellent materials that came out of it without relying on the WotC Official braintrust and creative team? We had lots of handbooks inside of a year or two, each adding to the world. Think of all the gaming mags that have died out or transformed beyond recognition that could now see a flood of new content or submissions now that Dragon will be gone. Who knows, it could be a real renaissance.
I wasn't always happy with some of the directions Dragon had gone (though I enjoyed the Age of Worms Adventure Path from Dungeon, and I think Pathfinder will do well on the AP theme, I make my own campaign material, so I'm not a big follower of Dungeon). Perhaps this will allow the new "electronic forum" to expand beyond the narrow vision of a few editors and appeal to a larger body of readers. Damn, but I'll miss Dragon, but I am hopeful for something better to come out of it, in the same way 3rd Edition was so far superior to 2nd (IMHO).
This whole thing has really upset me. I grew up reading Dragon and Dungeon. Never subscribed, but always at least looked at every issue for the past 13 years. Bought a lot of them!
I've been cautioned on the WotC boards when I announced my boycott of their products. It really made my day! I'm not going back to them after this. My money is going elsewhere.
Not a happy dwarf....
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I always meant to subscribe, but never did. Having said that, I've got most of the issues after about 100, and a goodly portion of the issues from about 10 on. Not being able to support my local hobby shop for this makes me sad. Perhaps I'll finally have to break down and get the internet at home.
Here's hoping the online stuff is worth a damn.
Strip away my sense of betrayal and loss. What's left is me soberly insisting that I'm won't use a PDF, let alone buy one. Dragon and Dungeon as PDFs would be like eating lasagna in pill form. I'm not a Jetson and that's not going to happen. They just lost a sale. They'll lose many such sales. Apparently the answer is, they don't really care. Great.
As Monte noted, Paizo didn't put out a magazine... they put out a product. And why wouldn't they fill the gap with two magazines of their own to replace the one's they lost? They certainly have the editorial talent and the pool of contributors. There might be a non-compete in place, and when it expires, maybe then we can get back to Slagon and Slungeon magazine because, lemme tell ya, I'll buy it.
Perhaps Monte didn't nail it. Perhaps continuing to play as WotC's favorite outside son, Paizo will be given scraps of bread if they just don't cross a line, and that may be magazines. Ultimately, Paizo has to eat, regardless of the deals it has to cut. I wouldn't even think of getting mad at anyone there, because they are clearly not in control of the situation and, far worse, they don't seem to be able to talk past a gag about it.
Eh... who can know?
What a shock to learn after my several week internet hiatus (I know you all missed my bearded bedeviling and bewildered presence ;) ) that my beloved magazines will be headed for the same fate as the dodo, the American way of life and Bobby Brown's career.
I will miss the magazines, and I wish I had more faith that our dismay will register on Galactus'- I mean WotC's radar, but I expect even a unified hue and cry will fall on deaf ears. Once a monolith makes a decision there is no turning it aside. It is, after all, business.
That being said, I am old fashioned and enjoy turning the pages of a magazine. PDF's aren't gonna do it for me. I don't even own a good printer. I will miss Dungeon especially keenly, as I will openly say I am a better DM for having read the works of the creative geniuses who brought us the wonderful adventures of the past few years. This is a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow it we must. I am relieved to hear that Paizo will continue on in its mission and I will try to support it in any way I can.
I am interested to see what this Pathfinder stuff is all about and will keep my ears cocked. As far as boycotting WotC, I am afraid any such claim on my part would be hollow. I enjoy what they put out and just as I cringe every time I check out at Wal-Mart (a necessary evil for a non-rich person in this US of A), I will sigh heavily as I purchase another book/accessory/box of minis, but purchase them I will. I hope you folks at Paizo don't hate me for that, but it sounds like y'all are taking the news as best you can and keeping your eyes on the future.
Thanks for everything Dungeon and Dragon and all the folks who made it possible! Here's to the next five months being as quality packed and entertaining as the last few years. I will wait for fond adieu's until the final issue drops, but in the meanwhile, accept my fond acknowledgment of all you have done for this community and excited expectations of what's to come.
-Sylvan
well, it has come down to this. please allow me to ramble a bit, as i come to understand what has happened. i have to admit, that knowing some of the tumultuous history of dungeons and dragons, i am not completely surprised that another change has occurred. i started playing around 1979. i was about 12 years old. my gaming career actually started as an avalon hill war gamer. tactics ii was my first ever game. but like the gateway game it was, it soon led into much heaver games, like role-playing. my first dungeons and dragons book was the light blue basic booklet. no box. no dice. i wrote numbers randomly on a piece of paper, you would close your eyes, circle your finger and drop it, the number closest to your finger was the result. in the years since 1979, my gaming has been put on hold off an on. sometimes due to girls, sometimes due to the army, and sometimes due to the combination of the two, i.e. alcoholism. but i always considered myself a gamer.
anybody who lived through the sacking of gary gygax, the crash of tsr and the taking over of wotc (what does a trading card company know about dnd?), knows that dungeons and dragons has, can, and will survive. the game is what’s important. not the driver, not the publisher, and defiantly not me.
wotc has some pretty amazing accomplishments since 1997. remember that between december 1996 and august 1997, the dragon count went from 236 to 238. that was wotc that saved dragon and dungeon from the fiery pits of hell. those of us who remember fondly advanced dungeons and dragons, (before it was known as 1st edition) with rules spread out over 13 hard cover books, no real way to find rules, just seat of the pants role-playing. and the 2nd edition, with no devils and no demons, the whole kinder and gentler dungeons and dragons. wotc brought organization, and put the evil back into chaotic evil.
i will give wotc the benefit of doubt, and investigate what wotc is doing with my beloved magazines. i have become pretty accustomed to reading pdf files, and the read aloud feature is a cool, if not grueling alternative to actually reading something. also, if you read the editorial for dragon issue number 1, you will find that the reason that tsr started dragon in the first place was to publish articles about other games, companies, etc. i would tell wotc to re-read that editorial.
i have proudly switched my remaining subscription to Pathfinder, my only hope is that for 20 dollars an issue, that there is no advertising. so, to paizo i say "do not go gentle into that good night." use this opportunity to branch into other ogl systems. there are far too few d20 modern, and d20 future modules. (i would personally like to see a subscription service for those game systems)
well, that’s going to be it. i have said my piece, now i will run it through a spell checker so i don’t look as big an idiot as i really am.
i wish paizo all the happiest of success....i wish wotc the same.
dj
Chief Technical Officer
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I am kind of doubting as much work will go into the lame duck issues as otherwise went into issues. Maybe Paizo will surprise us. But, what incentive do they have to make these last issues any good? If we are subscribers, we are stuck with it either way, and there is no incentive to make great issues to try to increase circulation. I hope pride and decency win out, and they put forth a good effort.
Boy, we don't get much credit granted from you, huh? Of course we won't slack off on these issues. Dragon and Dungeon are labors of love for the teams that work on them. We understand the history here—it's OUR history, as professionals and as gamers—and you need not worry. We won't let them end with a squeak.
From the Transition FAQ:
Will the final issues of the magazines include any special content?
Most definitely! With more than 50 years of history between them, we couldn’t let these fantastic magazines go out without a bang. Both will be special oversized issues. Dragon will feature two commemorative posters and a cover by Larry Elmore, and Dungeon’s gatefold cover will feature all 11 Paizo “iconics” in a scene painted by Wayne Reynolds. Dungeon #150 will also include a complete index of all adventures ever published in the magazine. Dragon #359 will include a special feature exploring the greatest “unsolved mysteries” of D&D, we’ll enjoy another installment of the Demonomicon, and no doubt some of our faithful contributors throughout the years will want to include some special memories for the historic final issues of these venerable magazines. Keep your eyes on paizo.com for announcements of additional special content.
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I really wish I had not JUST renewed my subscriptions to both. I am kind of doubting as much work will go into the lame duck issues as otherwise went into issues. Maybe Paizo will surprise us. But, what incentive do they have to make these last issues any good? If we are subscribers, we are stuck with it either way, and there is no incentive to make great issues to try to increase circulation. I hope pride and decency win out, and they put forth a good effort.
Wow...that's, well...insulting.
I dont see this as a viable option; as much as I chargin over WOTC's attitudes, customer service, opinions and ideas, I dont think hurting their profits would help us at all in the long term; what would you do if WOTC closed its doors?
Wow...that's, well...insulting.I really wish I had not JUST renewed my subscriptions to both. I am kind of doubting as much work will go into the lame duck issues as otherwise went into issues. Maybe Paizo will surprise us. But, what incentive do they have to make these last issues any good? If we are subscribers, we are stuck with it either way, and there is no incentive to make great issues to try to increase circulation. I hope pride and decency win out, and they put forth a good effort.
am a bit curious on exactly what you think is insulting about this; yes, the language is a bit intense, but intensity of expression is used to convey a persons feeling about the topic. While I am pleased with Paizo as a company, truthfully, I have not been very impressed with my subscriptions of either Dragon or Dungeon content wise; so, I can understand this post; I am curious what about it insults you?
Hmm, well when you want to complain about someone with deaf ears; you dont talk to them; you talk to their boss; isn't WOTC owned by a larger company like Matel or something; we should find out and direct our complaints in that direction; will probably be more effective.
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I think it premature to dislike the electronic version of the magazine. Just because Paizo is no longer producing it does not mean that it must necessarily be bad. There are some people at wizards that are creative, intelligent, adept writers and creators. They took their love of gaming and made a career of it.
I am also upset but I think WotC is doing a smart thing. They are being disrespectful by forcing me to go online but there is a great value in content that can be used with a computer program. (Think DM Genie or DM Familiar.) Sure they will have an eZine and I will hate it. But I think they are going to give me my monsters, spell, magic items and stuff that I can speed up my preparation time and game play.
I love my hardcopy rulebooks, magazines and modules. I will buy them as long as I can. But I will pay extra to get it digitally so I can use it in a RPG Computer Program. There is an active, and I presume growing, group of people who use the SRD Websites and RPG Programs. Digital will add great value to these users. Just look at all the excel character sheets out there. And if Paizo does not have a strategy to partner with user groups or SW writers, WotC will start winning market share.
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I thinnk we are all going to be blown away with just how awesome the content in these last couple of magazines is. IMHO Dragon and Dungeon were both in a "golden age" the last several months as the AP's were wildly successful and the campaign articles, demonomicon, and class acts articles provided useful content virtually every month. I am very sad to see Dragon and Dungeon go, but I will end up subscribing to Pathfinder, because I know that the content will be great based on what we have seen with the magazines. That isn't something I can say about any other third party vender. Paizo may not have the license to make "official" D&D content anymore, but they still will make the best 3.5 OGL related content in the industry. I would even go so far as to say it will be better than 75% of the content produced by Wizards going forward.
On a side note, assuming that Paizo is going to mail it in on the last issues just because they lost their licens is both rude and insulting. This company has spectacular customer service and cares about the game as much if not more than anyone at Wizard's does. I will look forward to each and every remaining issue, and look forward to the first issues of Pathfinder.
Its not just insulting, it doesn't really make much sense. Paizo will still be around, and they will still be publishing material that will be in the same field. If they put out bad issues of Dungeon especially, how would that reflect on people they hope will pick up Pathfinder? I think that they have quite a bit of incentive to keep the quality high to promote their new venture.
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I was dumbfounded and saddened when I read the news about Dragon and Dungeon. Like alot of folks, I grew up buying these mags at gamestores when I was a kid, and really enjoy reading both the magazines, even if I'm not going to use anything from them. As much as I think this sucks, WotC holds the coveted license for DnD. Until that changes, I'll continue to (albeit begrudingly) use and purchase their products that are interesting and/or useful to the game. That's what has always been cool about Dungeon and Dragon as of late; the cross pollenation of Dungeons and Dragons the game and the mags. You got Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, etc. materials in your mags that line up with the game you play. I think Pathfinder will be excellent (how can it not when this many talented people are working on it), but not having that perfect crossover will be hard to overcome. I'll continue to buy products from Paizo and I also hope that WotC can come up with something cool to replace (or hopefully continue) Dungeon and Dragon.
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I really wish I had not JUST renewed my subscriptions to both. I am kind of doubting as much work will go into the lame duck issues as otherwise went into issues. Maybe Paizo will surprise us.
Wow...that's, well...insulting.
I am curious what about it insults you?
Free speech is a hallmark of free society; so, that's not what I mean, nor do I intend to intimate that intense expression is, by itself, insulting. I personally see the comment, especially as it is not directly issued to one person who may have shown incompetence or a laissez faire attitude to the work in the past, but is obliquely issued to everyone at Paizo, as degrading to all the work they've done. The mere suggestion that a professional will not see an assignment through to the end, with the very same verve and determination with which he started, is...well, insulting. I guarantee their work doesn't stop at 5 PM every day, they don't drop it at the office door when they go home at night, and they don't measure their days in coffee spoons. Fry cooks don't work at Paizo.
Thanks for the clarification A.T. :)
Anyone care to speculate how much Greyhawk material our wonderful new E-Zine will carry. I tend to suspect that given WoTC's refusal to do much with it other than LG, things do not look good for us Hawkers...
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Anyone care to speculate how much Greyhawk material our wonderful new E-Zine will carry. I tend to suspect that given WoTC's refusal to do much with it other than LG, things do not look good for us Hawkers...
I speculate 0%, until Castle Greyhawk returns and people scoop it up in droves, HOWEVER......
I am a huge Greyhawk fan but I won't buy a Greyhawk product from WotC after all this. I have been starved of my favorite setting for too long now. Screw it, I swore I would never buy another WotC product after this and I won't even if it is something of my beloved setting.WOTC is dead to me. Viva la Paizo! Viva La Pathfinder!
FH
PS- I am pretty good at sticking to my guns.
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Hit them in the wallet?It seems like people like you, who admittedly don't even subscribe to the magazine, have already hit them in the wallet and may have led to them not renewing Paizo's license.
You sound like someone that would whine about music stores closing while copying downloads from others.
It sucks that they are ending, but someone that didn't spend the money trying to hit them in the wallet is kind of silly (at least to me).
Just because one does not subscribe to the magazines - does not mean one does not buy it! I for one didnt subscribe as it gave me a reason to go to the local game store or Borders, etc. In fact, the only reason I even step foot in Borders or Books-a-Million is to pick up my monthly Dragon and/or Dungeon. I have never subscribed to either and I have not missed an issue in YEARS.
As a second point - this new ezine from WOTC will hurt the local gaming shop...maybe a reason it was done this way? Hmmm, well some call me paranoid...
This totally sucks for me. Im missing only like less than 20 some issues and I have the entire collection in hard copy. My first issue is #3.
You can say I have the entire Dragon Magazine collection since I have the Dragon Mag CDs (1-250).
Do I want them to be in some sort of electronic format? Hell no!!! Either way it being in electronic pdf format or not you can still get then in electronic format for free. Making it the only way you can get the content would just reinforce this position.
Hasbro also didnt renew the codemonkey license on ETools. Because they will be releasing another WoTC offical character gen and didnt want it to compete.
Are they going to go back to releasing the Magazine in house again? I do say $7.99 is pretty hefty to pay for a shelf copy. I believe mine prorate to like a little over $3 and I believe that is about right.
I feel there is nothing we can do to make them keep publishing a hard copy of the content we have loved for over 30 years.
You know, I hate to say it, but there are those of use who can not afford an internet connection at home and have to use the public library. If I had wanted electronic content I can't get it. Besides I like to take my magazines everywhere, including sessions away from home. I can see it now with everyone trying to lug their PC around to each gaming session. Pathetic!!!! And before someone even thinks of mentioning buying a laptop, let me say that of all the gamers I game with, and this numbers around 30 or so, only about 4 or 5 can afford them.
No what I want is to hold the articles in my hand as I read them. Staring at a computer screen is not the option I want. As for this Pathfinder AP, what would I want that for? I have never bought a single AP ever, I prefer to make my own adventures with my own ideas, it might be nice for others to do the work for me, but in the end these articles are not tailored to the style of play I use.
I have also thought of boycotting WotC, but in the long run what would be the point, they would use that as an excuse to stop printing D&D and move exclusively to card games. And just to spite us, they would not release the liscense for D&D to anyone else. Boycott Hasbro? Wouldn't phase them in the least. Where does that leave the people not thrilled about Pathfinder or the new online content? Screwed, thats where.
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Did any one read this month's Nodwick... it kinda sums this deal up.
I also think it is true that an effective boycott would only kill D&D and those WOTC chumps would hold on to the rights and starve us all. its not that I like WOTC, i don't, but they have us by the short hairs so I say that while an all out boycott would be bad in the long run a boycott on ths new "exciting" online schlock would be right on.
this reminds me of Council of Wyrms... and you know what? I still hate DRAGONSLAYERS!
I spend enough time online. Having a paper form of my gaming materials allows me to bring it to the car dealership when I'm getting the tires changed, to my parents when we're snagging laundry machine privs and to bring to school so that under privileged kids I teach can browse as well.
I won't know what is really happening here - I tend to not trust Hasbro - but I'm disappointed in the imminent demise of Dragon. And to think I complained when they changed the font... how daft compared to the destruction huh?