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The first round of the Games have been resolved and my PCs were victorious — to the point of being cold blooded murderers.
Agreements had been reached with Badlands Revenge and the Saphire Squad to not deliver death blows. Neverless, the PCs unleashed all sorts of spell power on the other teams, massive sneak damage, and killer tactics to the point only one adversary could surrender. All others were reduced below -10 on their "death blows". They were like titans playing with kittens and not realizing their strength.
Granted, I set up Arcane Auriga to be treasonous in the eyes of the elven paladin, so I have no heartburn with their demise.
The fact that the NG cleric of Pelor was unleashing flame strikes on the agreed "allies" to deadly affect does give me some heartburn though. I've read through the Pelor article in Dragon 246 wondering if the cleric had stepped over the boundary of "good sportsmanship" but the whole concept of the blood sport we call "gladitorial combat" is pretty grey to begin with.
I wonder where I need to go with this in regards to the PC party and specifically the Pelorian cleric and the paladin. Have they broken their sacred vows by using deadly force in a "sporting" event like the Champion's Games? A cleric of Pelor, known for his help to the needy of the Free City, known for his charity, turns into a killing machine on the arena floor. How will the Pelorian faithful react to this demonstration?
Opinions, similar anecdotes, suggestions are welcome. The aftermath of the first round will be explored during tomorrow's (April 10th) game and I like to have a firm "judgement" in mind. Thank you in advance, my fellow Paizo.com peers.
There have been some great articles dealing with problem players, most often appearing in Dungeon or the DMGII. I heartily encourage you to check them out.
First off it's only a game. Tell that to your PCs as you offer them a few choices.
My way of handling it would be to warn them that they feel their 'holy' abilities gradually diminishing until their alinment changes, or seeking spiritual guidance and atonement Role play it out, and don't let them get the spell cast until they have seen the errors of their ways. I tend to play things out in session, so the next time the Paladin goes to smite an evil foe and nothing happens, or Pelor's holy radiance declines to grant the cleric any spells above 2nd level the characters should get the hint.
My 2 cents.
Yeah, the flame strikes seem a bit ... strong. I too have a cleric of Pelor to contend with, and she may balk entirely at even entering the games. We'll see.
It's a fine line to walk, there's no doubt about it. Because some of the other opponents may very well be more of a challenge, and the full flexing of their titanic muscles may be required. Either way, it seems like a little divine hemming and hawing might be appropriate. Certainly some dream warnings, perhaps with a little spanking from the god in question. The Peloran dreams are immediately springing to mind. The cleric is frolicking in a green field, the warmth of the sun upon his/her back. Suddenly, a chill wind comes up and dark and ominous clouds move over the sun. All of the plants in the field shrivel and die, leaving the cleric on a bare cold plain. The frowning face of Pelor forms in the sky, yet sheds no light or warmth on the cleric. Looking up the cleric can only cry, "I thought you were my friend?" Pelor frowns even more deeply and makes a gesture, bringing a flame strike down upon the cleric, who wakes up in a cold sweat.
As for the spanking, maybe have one healing spell (the first one cast that day) yield minimum healing (i.e. ones on all dice) while an image from the dream races through the cleric's mind. That should be a pretty clear message, don't you think?
The paladin might suffer a similar treatment.
I do like the ideas above, if they work for your game. As another perpective you could consider that this is real combat with real weapons and spells. It may be that neither side is expressly trying to kill one another, but holding back may only cause the gladiator's own death. I guess that I would only punish the character if they were overtly doing coup de grace attacks, or attacking surrendering opponents. Other than that, each side is trying to win in a bloody game, and not giving your all, may just lead to your own death. I think that they should fight their hardest until the other side surrenders or is eliminated.
My PC's fought hard, and killed a couple of opponants. but they also asked for surrender from one foe (while holding a readied attack), performed first aid on another, and immediatly stopped combat on surrender. Just my 2 coppers.
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Thank you MattW and Eltanin (and MeanDM too!) for the immediate feedback. Seems we have a consensus that things were taken a bit too far in the context of "sport". I'm leaning that way as well, as that's my gut feeling after the round was over.
Certainly some dream warnings, perhaps with a little spanking from the god in question. The Peloran dreams are immediately springing to mind. The cleric is frolicking in a green field, the warmth of the sun upon his/her back. Suddenly, a chill wind comes up and dark and ominous clouds move over the sun. All of the plants in the field shrivel and die, leaving the cleric on a bare cold plain. The frowning face of Pelor forms in the sky, yet sheds no light or warmth on the cleric. Looking up the cleric can only cry, "I thought you were my friend?" Pelor frowns even more deeply and makes a gesture, bringing a flame strike down upon the cleric, who wakes up in a cold sweat.
As I've already had their first night in the Coenoby wracked with nightmares by all the PCs, your suggestion fits in well Eltanin.
Those who may be familiar with the taint rules from Heroes of Horror, would such overkill in a "sporting" event be worthy of a point earned?
MeanDM: my waffling comes from the fact that they all intended to let the adversaries an opportunity to surrender (except Renniga of Arcane Auriga) but used massive damage spells that eliminated any chance of surrender, unless sizzling third-degree burns count as a white flag. So it's a case of what they intended to do did not match their actions. Do I hold their potential alignment conflicts to the word of their intentions, or to the results of their actions? They effectively killed two nuetral/good groups they had agreed to not do mortal blows against.
Further insight and comment welcomed.
This is a tough one in my opinion. I really like the idea of the gladatorial games but i'm not sure if it fits in teh 'good' aligned party. My AoW campaigns are both set in Eberron which has had a war raging for one hundred years so I'm sure that gladatorial games would be scorned upon.
Further, the module forces the participation.
-10 seems a very fine line all of a sudden. Maybe each of the contestants should be given a magic item that stops then dying or increases the range beyond -10 - when it fails to work for the PCs then questions will be asked of the organisers, or when Pitch Black use that scroll to Dispel it before they make the killer blow.
Or maybe the opponents should surrender when they get to 10 hit points. Even the best boxers have corners that throw in the towel.
Maybe turning the crowd against them will influence them.
Another backlash that should happen is that by so soundly defeating thier opposition in the first round they have effectively "tipped" thier hand as to how powerful the groups abilities really are. Thier ranking should increase accordingly, making any further side bets they might arrange much less profitable.
The group I'm DM'ing was very cautious and did not use any spells above 3rd level in the first round. Amazingly enough they had a fairly easy time in the first round because thier bard was able to influence the other teams attitudes to the point where only one team was still hostile toward them at the start of the combat.
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Another backlash that should happen is that by so soundly defeating thier opposition in the first round they have effectively "tipped" thier hand as to how powerful the groups abilities really are. Their ranking should increase accordingly, making any further side bets they might arrange much less profitable.
That has already happened, as one should expect. During the Free Dinner the party's "face" character had a hit 31 and 50 (!!!) on his Diplomacy checks (lots of help from the party with DC 10 Diplomacy checks, +18 on his Diplomacy and a critical success to boot...oi) to talk the party's abilities down from a ranking of 4 to 1. So they made their money on round one...and the only ones cheering for them at the end were those that had put money on the Wind Dukes. Because of the brutal fashion they eliminated the other three teams, their rank is up to a 7 now—the bookies are rather irked that they've been fleeced. So the party's "let it ride" bets won't be a profitable.
They've certainly tipped their hands to say the least...
Yeah, I think your group crossed the line, although probably only just - would have been better to see them act like heroes while in public not just cold-blooded killers. Best to give then a hint or two to that effect now, as it might well change their behaviour against the dwarves and also against the rival PC's in the final round - depending on how the final round goes, they might not want to be killing the other group but looking for them to ally / surrender. In addition to the ideas above, the games announcer's intro for each team is also a good chance to do this - have him announce the PC's as ruthless killers, inciting lots of boos from the crowd.
It's a shame your group turned so blood-thirsty in the first round, it seems you did all you could to portray their opponents as real people too not just objects to be slaughtered. In my game, my group definitely went out there with various tactics designed to take their opponents out without killing them, such as Evard's Black Tentacles (forced an almost immediate surrender from the elves), and bull-rushing a flying dwarf above the 60' height restriction (causing him to be disqualified). They were also quite careful not to use the same tactics twice, and kept their really powerful spells under wraps for as long as possible, as they correctly guessed that word of their tactics would make its way to their next opponents...
So you should definitely also make sure the dwarves have potions of fire resistance (etc) to drink just prior to the start of the next round...
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I played the NPCs from the first fight a bit differently, so the end result in attitudes was nearly the opposite of the situation described above. Badlands Revenge engaged the PCs immediately, while Sapphire Squad charged Arcane Auriga. The PCs mopped the floor with the gnolls and druid, while Sapphire Squad focused fire on one opponent at a time with their full-attack actions, peppering Korush with arrows while he taunted and grandstanded. His hit points were in the single digits by the end of the first round, so he went invisible and healed himself up with potions while his mercenaries took the rest of the assault.
When Korush's mercs were all down for the count or had surrendered, Arcane Auriga turned their attention towards the PCs, but I had included some pillars in the arena for cover and the PCs were in pretty good position. My mage's fireballs had softened up the archers, and Rennida Auriga was about to surrender--the PCs with remaining actions were even delaying their attacks to give her a chance to do so--when Korush appeared behind her, poised to strike a vicious killing blow in revenge for his humiliation. I let the PCs use their readied attacks on Korush instead, and the soulknife dropped him with a lucky crit from his composite longbow, saving Rennida's life!
So Korush came out looking like an honorless punk (he lived, and will probably seek revenge later), Arcane Auriga surrended to the PCs with dignity (owing the PCs their life, a debt they may repay later), and Badlands Revenge didn't survive at all.
But...you mention issues of ethics, and I know that my players have some dirty tricks planned for later rounds. They're not really an honorable bunch, in spite of having saved Rennida.
What concerns me is that the psion has control body and could use it to force an enemy (or all enemies, one at a time!) to surrender to the PCs. He also likes to suppress the display of his psionic powers, so he can and will pull this off without ever revealing that he's responsible.
Any advice on how to handle that would be welcome. I think he could get away with it once, if the target is already in bad shape, but if he tries this on anyone who hasn't taken damage I'm thinking that Loris Raknian might simply demand that they get back on their feet and continue the fight. If the character doesn't respond, he might have his mage investigate further and possibly discover the use of magic. (I'm using the psionics-are-magic default option, so detect magic might turn it up.) In that case, the party's mage (my in-party NPC) might end up getting disqualified instead of the psion! In any such use, the body-controlled character is sure to reveal the trick once released, so consequences are certain...it's just a question of when and how they are applied. (And to whom...)
So...poor sportsmanship is something I expect to contend with as well. I just don't have any Lawful-aligned PCs in the group to feel guilty about it. :)
Hmmm. Yes, lots of ethical issues in this module. My group has a paladin, who is taking considerable pains to disguise his identity to avoid bringing dishonor upon the church of Hieroneous. His incognito identity is "the Black Knight," outfitted in Theldrick's old armor with the symbol of Hextor lacquered over, and he wore a cloak and hood at the banquet to keep people from getting a good look at his face. Some of the principles can guess his identity, of course--Raknian certainly knows who he is, but none of these people has any incentive to out him.
The paladin's superior, Jaikor Demien of Greyhawk's sanctum of Hieroneous, has sanctioned his participation in the games as a stratagem for finding out what Raknian is up to and what his connection to the Age of Worms might be. However, Bishop Jaikor warned him that if he revealed his identity publicly, he might have to be expelled from the Order (not necessarily stripped of his paladinhood, since that is conferred directly by Hieroneous) in order to maintain the order's public reputation.
My party, though, has been fairly scrupulous through the first two rounds, not unveiling too much high-level magic, and incurring only one fatality (Drusfan). The bard's glitterdust made the first round a walk--they made quick work of Badlands Revenge, then stabilized the downed victims, and Arcane Auriga surrendered once they were blinded. My player is pretty good-hearted and takes his good-aligned morals seriously!
Anyhow, there are fewer moral scruples to be concerned with in the last two rounds, since one is a dangerous monster and the other will be trumped by the arrival of the apostle (assuming they don't figure out how to take down the coccoon first). The battles haven't been very hard so far--I was going to make the battle with Pitch Blade tougher by having Bozal Zahol help Raknian cheat by buffing the dwarves with a spell immunity and some other things (I was a bit annoyed by the effects of glitterdust), but they took Bozal out the night before round 2.
I am a player and a DM. Having already done the Games I am of two options here. I myself as a DM have seen to many players push the limits of what I think a cleric or “Good” aligned character would do but this is just what I think and that’s the problem with punishing players for doing something. I usually let things slide but I will say something. I have never had anyone do anything just totally evil. This is all up to the DM what I think is ok another may go no way.
That being said our group tried to go easy on the people and had made bets on us even rolled really good and dropped our rank to nothing. When the games started the people were trying to kill us and we fought back. I can’t fault the wizard for a fireball taking out almost 2 teams the first round. The fail saving throws were amazing and she rolled really high on the dice. Did we try to drop them below -10 No. The games are a little hard to pull punches and not kill someone at that LV. Our fighters could have done non lethal damage but the other teams sure weren’t and what is a spell caster to do cast magic missile, the Clerics do nothing but buff up others. I felt that the adventure was written to sort of let the players go all out. You have the entire city of Grayhawk there who wouldn’t want to be famous. This is a great time to really show off what you have and how often does that get to happen. Its one thing to tell others at the bar it’s another for them to come up to you and go “dude remember when you”. If I was running it I would just say that once a person is dropped then someone runs out clears the ring and is then healed so that no one dies unless you try to kill them on purpose. I would also say no-no to any spells that kill out right or drain LV or AB dm to me that’s going against the rules. This is just how I would run it I just don’t see it as being fair to punish the players for fighting back when lots of things they do normally has a good chance of killing the other teams. It would be different if the had the Hit points above there heads. “Oh he’s almost dead better pull my punches on him”