Considering the topic title, I can go as off-topic as I like if I bring it around to an apology to Jimmy Suts. (That's your new mob name, James)
I have absolutely no problem with death metal beardies, and I actually like to lift to death metal. Then again I could seriously lift to chipper early era Chicago pop songs as well. I guess I'm easy. I do have a problem with death metal beardies who don't wanna play reindeer games with me because I stray from black sometimes and favor a smoove shave.
Yeah, I'm the same way - I listen to a bunch of different stuff, but metal's where my heart is these days when it comes to performing. I've actually got a hardcore metal band myself - www.myspace.com/shadowatmorning. I'd be the one with the beard. : P
And thanks for the mob name, but I've already got people quailing at the mention of Jimmy the Face...
James is a STUD! And that's some crunchy good stuff!
While I've enjoyed all the interplay here, I should make a clarification - I said that hack-and-slash is dead, not that dungeon crawls are. To me, those are two very different things. In fact, I'm writing a pretty old-school dungeon crawl for Paizo right now, and I think it's turning out pretty well.
Hack-and-slash, as I attempted to define it in the editorial, is the pen-and-paper equivalent of MMO "grinding." No story, no flavor, just wading through a sea of skeletons in order to get to the next level. By that definition - which is admittedly my own and not necessarily what everyone else means by those words - as soon as you add interesting storylines and compelling fluff to the combat, you no longer have hack-and-slash... you've just got quality adventure design.
I personally love Maure Castle, the ur-dungeon-crawl, because of its flavor - the brilliant traps and freaky monsters are fun to play with, but it's the story that captures my imagination. "Who's the Maure's mysterious patron? Why is so-in-so mentioned in that room? WTF is going on?!?" It's the flavor that keeps me thinking about the adventure long after I put it down.
So there ya go. I'm by no means saying every adventure should be Diplomacy - I likes me some combat as well - just that the extreme hack-and-slash end of the spectrum is the end most easily replicated by a computer, and hence the least interesting to the newer generations of gamers... or at least the ones I know.
...Also, in response to Allen, I have to say that, while emotionally unstable people might well be drawn to roleplaying in higher numbers, I believe that's due to the appeal of escapism and the fact that gamer society tends to be more accepting of such individuals than the mainstream. And escapism by itself isn't necessarily negative. The vast, vast majority of my gamer friends are happy, well-adjusted, and successful in their chosen fields, and I'm betting the same is true for a lot of folks on these boards.
If you don't feel comfortable roleplaying and speaking in-character, that's your own issue. But to represent roleplaying as if it's a warning sign of mental health issues, or a disorder itself that needs to be cured, is to pander to the worst kind of stereotypes... particularly when, last I checked, the greater psychiatric community was fine with it.
-James
Roleplaying in character is a way to legitimize hamming it up. Anything that does that is ACES in my book.
Side note about death metal:
I've always found that death metal guys are very laid back and accepting of other types of music. It sort of shocked me at first, when two different groups off Roadrunner were listening to me sing one of my songs on acoustic and they were so graciously impressed.
The thing around here is the death metal gamers are a bit exclusory when you pass by them. I was only referring to my own locality.
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Yeah, but most importantly, do I still get to be an ivory tower twit, or do I now get to be a gamer just like you?
Only if you want to. That was meant as a demonstration of how easy it is to start casually classifying people. I expect it was successful.
I love how you're suddenly the love-power-flower-child of gaming after all the attacks you made on "New Era" gamers (your term), and calling me an ivory tower twit.
Suddenly? Not at all. I spent many years thinking that me playing role-playing games made me better than those goofy kids playing CCGs. And I spent other years thinking that my style of role-playing made me better than the way those other people played. And I definitely spent years mocking those nutjob LARPers.
Then, in one of those nauseatingly cliched life-moments that involved a tabletop game, I realized that the only thing that mattered was having fun, and I gave up worrying about winning, or what people were playing, and just focused on having fun.Sad but true.
And yes, I've got hate. I've got a saying about claiming to be perfect I won't bother you with right now. But I reserve and focus that hate on those who do what I realize was such a waste of not only my time, but damaging to the hobby. Every time gamers go around screeching about the flaws of other gamers, we wind up fueling all the worst stereotypes other have about us. I don't like it, and I say so.
And yes, you've got me. I do love a good rant. Gets the creative juices flowing don't you know, and let's me indulge both my lower tastes in purple prose and my higher tastes in archaic stylings. Again though, that was to demonstrate the ease with which it can turn to flinging names, deliberately intended or otherwise. (Would you like to hear my rant about the casual racism inherent in the term "muggle" in Harry Potter? I am an equal opportunity ranter on such things.)
Or if I'm completely wrong on this, and you stand by your words I quoted right there above, you could man-up and say "Gee Nick, sorry for calling you an ivory tower twit...I didn't get what you were talking about with the troglodytes thing and jumped to the conclusion you were a flaming a@!!!&* who was s#~*-talking my friends." I'm happy to say: Sam, I'm sorry if I caused you and your friends disparagement with my troglodytes comment. I didn't mean to and I sincerely apologize.
Despite popular opinion otherwise, I am quite capable of such things. I just wanted a simple acknowledgement of the issue I raised. So,
And I'm sorry for you an ivory tower twit Nick. I just felt the use of the term was inappropriate, and without any of the supporting context you added later, and felt it should be addressed.
Oh and thank you (sincerely!) for finally providing me with an example of the design flaw you were talking about, man I had to work to get you to show me what you mean, but that's okay, I like the work. Now I see what you are saying, and you have a point. Still, a dozen side quests to kill off the hibernating aboleths...not so...a simple deus ex machina does the trick my man. Let's not exaggerate.
That example is not utterly atrocious. Regrettably, I've seen a lot worse. As I hope I've made clear, that's why I'm not down on Dungeon. Such things happen, and many times there are sidebars to directly address them. I was simply referring to the phenomenon in general, and how it can warp the presentation of a role-playing adventure.
The trend will probably change again in a few years time, so don't sweat it. After awhile the next group of young gamers will be all about the kind of design you like. Cycles and circles.
I never got to that, but that is indeed another element in my dissent. Things do go in cycles, so indeed such a shift is pretty near irrelevant.
And to be honest, I may be responsible for the very same thing in my own responses so let's kill the cycle.
That's fine with me.
I will just note, since I'm sure there will be another hot topic eventually, is that I often address things from a theoretical level, not the specific instance. I can cite specifics, but I prefer to leave things more general so we don't wind up with anyone feeling I'm picking on their work. If someone wants specific comment on a specific adventure, like the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb, I'll give it. Otherwise I'll stick with just general theory. Much safer that way. :)
While I've enjoyed all the interplay here, I should make a clarification - I said that hack-and-slash is dead, not that dungeon crawls are. To me, those are two very different things. In fact, I'm writing a pretty old-school dungeon crawl for Paizo right now, and I think it's turning out pretty well.
Awesome! Can't wait to read it! And that's a good clarification. Thanks James.
Hack-and-slash, as I attempted to define it in the editorial, is the pen-and-paper equivalent of MMO "grinding." No story, no flavor, just wading through a sea of skeletons in order to get to the next level. By that definition - which is admittedly my own and not necessarily what everyone else means by those words - as soon as you add interesting storylines and compelling fluff to the combat, you no longer have hack-and-slash... you've just got quality adventure design.
I personally love Maure Castle, the ur-dungeon-crawl, because of its flavor - the brilliant traps and freaky monsters are fun to play with, but it's the story that captures my imagination. "Who's the Maure's mysterious patron? Why is so-in-so mentioned in that room? WTF is going on?!?" It's the flavor that keeps me thinking about the adventure long after I put it down.
So there ya go. I'm by no means saying every adventure should be Diplomacy - I likes me some combat as well - just that the extreme hack-and-slash end of the spectrum is the end most easily replicated by a computer, and hence the least interesting to the newer generations of gamers... or at least the ones I know.
To me this was one of the strongest points of your editorial. The computers do the hack-n-slash so much better, faster and more entertaining than a bunch of sweaty guys sitting around a basement table.
..Also, in response to Allen, I have to say that, while emotionally unstable people might well be drawn to roleplaying in higher numbers, I believe that's due to the appeal of escapism and the fact that gamer society tends to be more accepting of such individuals than the mainstream. And escapism by itself isn't necessarily negative. The vast, vast majority of my gamer friends are happy, well-adjusted, and successful in their chosen fields, and I'm betting the same is true for a lot of folks on these boards.
If you don't feel comfortable roleplaying and speaking in-character, that's your own issue. But to represent roleplaying as if it's a warning sign of mental health issues, or a disorder itself that needs to be cured, is to pander to the worst kind of stereotypes... particularly when, last I checked, the greater psychiatric community was fine with it.
Word.
Side note about death metal:
I've always found that death metal guys are very laid back and accepting of other types of music. It sort of shocked me at first, when two different groups off Roadrunner were listening to me sing one of my songs on acoustic and they were so graciously impressed.
The thing around here is the death metal gamers are a bit exclusory when you pass by them. I was only referring to my own locality.
I saw Slayer play once during my troubled youth and they made sure to stop between songs to tell everyone to calm down in the pit. "We don't want anyone to get hurt, okay?", they said.
Big hearts, Slayer. Big hearts.
Side note about death metal:
I've always found that death metal guys are very laid back and accepting of other types of music. It sort of shocked me at first, when two different groups off Roadrunner were listening to me sing one of my songs on acoustic and they were so graciously impressed.
The thing around here is the death metal gamers are a bit exclusory when you pass by them. I was only referring to my own locality.
I saw Slayer play once during my troubled youth and they made sure to stop between songs to tell everyone to calm down in the pit. "We don't want anyone to get hurt, okay?", they said.
Big hearts, Slayer. Big hearts.
Unfortunatly, for every slayer out there, there's a Pantera who tells the pit crowd to "Go F@#*in' crazy and kill eachother."
Seen em both live. Good shows, both, but waaay different attitudes towards possible injury. The slayer concert was fun. The pantera concert was just bloody scarey.
--This post brought to you by windnight's misspent concert going "youth."
While I've enjoyed all the interplay here, I should make a clarification - I said that hack-and-slash is dead, not that dungeon crawls are. To me, those are two very different things. In fact, I'm writing a pretty old-school dungeon crawl for Paizo right now, and I think it's turning out pretty well.
...Also, in response to Allen, I have to say that, while emotionally unstable people might well be drawn to roleplaying in higher numbers, I believe that's due to the appeal of escapism and the fact that gamer society tends to be more accepting of such individuals than the mainstream. And escapism by itself isn't necessarily negative. The vast, vast majority of my gamer friends are happy, well-adjusted, and successful in their chosen fields, and I'm betting the same is true for a lot of folks on these boards.
If you don't feel comfortable roleplaying and...
Mr. Sutter, under YOUR stated definition of "hack and slash" games, I'm at a loss for who even plays those. 1st edition d&d and even Hackmaster/Kenzer Co. has a basic storyline and a few NPC's that aren't to be killed. But please do refer me to any 'pure hack n' slashers' if you know any. They'd make good additions to my group...
Mr. Sutter/Mr. Logue, in principle I agree with your statements. I think you have summed up the basic attractions for many of the 'typical' members of the RPG hobby. I'm sure RPG's are a haven for the often socially ackward, introverted, creative, and shall we say "sometimes-issue-laden" people who enjoy it. I did not suggest in my prior posts that 'role-playing' was a "problem behavior" akin to mental disorders, that needed to be cured. Rather, my purpose in writing the thread was to point out that I don't wish the 'role-playing' type of adventures to be given 'preference' to the (as you put it) 'dungeoncrawls' that I purchase the magazine for. I think the RPG industry is a good hobby for all sorts of people, regardless of how they approach, save in the most extreme examples, of which, "role-playing" is not one of.
Mr. Logue, granted, Jocks (of which I am) and preps frequently do need therapy also. The reasons are more frequently, shall I say "extrovert- typical" problems, as in work-a-holics, womanizers, gambling problems, drugs/alcohol, and other "non-imaginative" problems that are prevalent in the "baser drives" of mankind... Most of the gamers I know don't do well with the fairer sex, don't have high powered careers, aren't into fast cars/racing, don't gamble, don't watch sports, etc. You get the point.
Most of the gamers I know don't do well with the fairer sex, don't have high powered careers, aren't into fast cars/racing, don't gamble, don't watch sports, etc.
You're hanging with the wrong gamers.
::Fires up the Ferrari and picks up a couple of hookers on the way to his Saturday night game::
Seriously though, I hear what you are saying, but I think these social groups (jocks, preps, dorks, nerds) are breaking down a lot now (and even in my generation to some extent). I was Varsity swimmer and football player. I competed in Chinese Free-fighting in Beijing (ah, the bruises...er memories) and yet I am a creature of the theatre and dork of the upteenth power! Most of my gamer friends played sports (football, wrestling, and they all did martial arts) and did great with the gals (there are noted exceptions).
Again, I think a good point James made in his article is that the face of the "gamer" is changing. The unwashed introvert is still around, but he's becoming less and less the norm. Most of my kids who play in the high school I teach at are the cool kids. They are the popular ones, they play Varsity sports, they also do theatre, and they drive fast cars. They also love them some D&D. And they especially dig on the "roleplaying" style...now to be fair and honest...it could be that the fact that they do enjoy theatre that is why they don't dig on getting bogged down with elaborate tactics, 5-foot stepping, spring attacking, mini-o-ramas.
This brings up another point I wanted to make: In my experience the people who like "roleplaying" don't need therapy, they just enjoy the creative outlet. Like writing poetry in your free time or jotting down ideas for a T.V. show. People who have a font of untapped creativity inside them get to create some interesting characters and explore the choices these characters would make in a variety of situations. It's good times. It also allows the exploration of themes like racism, revenge, power corrupts, etc. In a sense it is not about therapy, but rather humanity. It's like watching the Sopranos and realizing: "Man this show doesn't glorify organized crime...it portrays gangsters as stupid, evil, childish, emotionally-mixed up, degenerates, who kill their best friends because it's all just business...in fact this show has strong feminist themes, about the mistreatment of women in society and the strength most women have over men." You can explore similar themes in any "roleplaying" adventure if you choose to. This is a big reason I enjoy getting into character. I especially enjoy doing it to be satirical. For example, I love playing a racist character as a means of showing just how ridiculous their behavior is and how unfounded their bigotry can be. I enjoy playing a wildly reactionary religious character so as to reveal the hypocrisy and fear that sometimes goes along with this. I love to play cowards, to examine what causes cowardice, and of course for the big pay-off scene when they finally decide to stand up for what is right.
All of the above isn't because I need therapy. It's because I find the human condition fascinating, and playing a character in a "roleplaying" adventure is a means of exploring it, not unlike spitballing ideas for a movie, or free-writing a novel with your friends...but it takes far less work and is a ton of fun too.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Finally got my issue, finally read the editorial, and all I've got to say is: what's the big deal?
About the worst sin of the editorial was this whole us against them generational thing. Its hard not to get irritated whenever someone younger comes up and starts spouting off about how things are different because their generation understands/experiences things with which the older generation never dealt. People did that about internet companies in the late 90's, spouting off about how revenue didn't matter anymore and it being a "new economy." The hippies did it back in the 60's and 70's. I've never seen all this alleged new understanding manifest into anything of substance, but the claim is made time and time again. I think that's really what's creating this reaction - being called old and out of touch.
Other than that though, I'm not sure what is meant by hack and slash. I don't think that people have played D&D just for the sheer fun of mechanically grinding through enemies (or at least not since it was a war game). That type of stuff is better handled through computers. As for minimalist dungeon crawls, I'm not entirely convinced that they are dead. I think there is room for, and in fact, a purpose served by a bare bones dungeon crawl that is not served by a story intense adventure. The dungeon crawl is ultimately, the true test of Iron DM-ing. It gives a DM enough information to spark the creative juices, enough stats to run some encounters, and the need to explain on the spot why exactly the green hag three doors down hasn't eaten the tribe of kobolds protecting her only water source.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, I think this should be another thread, but I am totally closeted about being a gamer. I am slowly working on getting the idea of getting computer games to be accepted by my co-workers and business associates. Admitting to gaming is like admitting you are a drag queen. I'm sure the large drag queen community is full of support for their fellow queens, and that possibly many drag queens live normal lives and are professionals just like everyone else. But, at the end of the day, no CEO wants to know that their lawyer dresses up like a woman on weekend, just as no CEO wants to know that said lawyer gets together with a bunch of friends and pretends to be an elf with a magic sword killing dragons. At heart, this hobby is part let's pretend, part fantasy novel, and entirely unfit for adults.
I love it, I can't quit it, but I sure as hell won't admit to it.
D&D's got to do something in the way of roleplaying or noncombat, for two reasons. One, if you just want hack and slash then an MMO will satisfy you, so D&D has got to offer something more. Two, plain heedless combat can be boring as all hell, especially to older or experienced players for whom a band of ogres is just another band of ogres that won't go away until you throw enough twenty sided dice at them.
Of course, the more combat-light you go with the game, the less rules and ready-made adventures come into play. If we all left our dice at home and went to play Greyhawk-themed improv, Dungeon wouldn't have anything to write.
Meh.
I was more surprised when he stated that D&D wasn't for nerds anymore. His arguments may be valid, but he's seeing the wrong conclusion.
The nerd isn't dying out. It's flourishing! The reason nerds are now succesful, numerous, and have romantic relations is that more and more people are becoming nerds or at least nerdier.
I'll be damned if D&D isn't still the game of the nerds. And it should be!
D&D's got to do something in the way of roleplaying or noncombat, for two reasons. One, if you just want hack and slash then an MMO will satisfy you, so D&D has got to offer something more. Two, plain heedless combat can be boring as all hell, especially to older or experienced players for whom a band of ogres is just another band of ogres that won't go away until you throw enough twenty sided dice at them.
Of course, the more combat-light you go with the game, the less rules and ready-made adventures come into play. If we all left our dice at home and went to play Greyhawk-themed improv, Dungeon wouldn't have anything to write.
I love chess. With the advancements that the 3.5 game has made, it vaguely reminds me of my beloved chess. You have a map with squares. Various movements and calculations produce different results and possibilities. You can prepare for your enemies in various ways and plot any number of strategies to assail them. It's very methodical and logical. That's the joy of combat in the game, and frankly, the rest is pretty secondary if you ask me. Talking to the ogres is simply less interesting than carving them into lasagna.
Like Sebastian, I too am a closeted player.
And to finish my d&d reminds me of chess post from above, I find it curious why some posters feel that combat lovers would be happy with another (computer) medium of game instead of d&d. In computer games, you just click a button, and carnage ensues. There is no calculations, there are no mind games between you and the GM as to how each is going to try to put it to the other. That's the beauty of the strategic quality to the game. I have yet to see any of the Hack 'n Slash type computer games (ex. Diablo) that let you even come close to the thinking and careful crafting that the 3.5 system allows. It is a thing of beauty for the combat fiends like me. The d&d game now is what it should have been many years ago. I can't fathom leaving it for another type of fantasy-combat game.
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And to finish my d&d reminds me of chess post from above, I find it curious why some posters feel that combat lovers would be happy with another (computer) medium of game instead of d&d. In computer games, you just click a button, and carnage ensues. There is no calculations, there are no mind games between you and the GM as to how each is going to try to put it to the other. That's the beauty of the strategic quality to the game. I have yet to see any of the Hack 'n Slash type computer games (ex. Diablo) that let you even come close to the thinking and careful crafting that the 3.5 system allows. It is a thing of beauty for the combat fiends like me. The d&d game now is what it should have been many years ago. I can't fathom leaving it for another type of fantasy-combat game.
Absolutely. Take my lot - if they don't have at least one fight in a session, they get very fidgety. They love combat, and so do I. As a DM, you have a possibly richer experience because you are designing the world, and the plot twists, and therefore have a bigger stake in the world. But we all know that the PCs don't pick up on even a fraction of the background material. Yes, they want plot because moving from room to room killing what you see is the epitome of dullness. But they want combat, intersperced with plot, at least in the case of my guys. They really perk up and look happy when I say, "Roll for initiative."
On being "in" or "out", I was out in my last place (I have just started a new job, so I'm being cautious). But I was subject to a lot of ribbing and, frankly, incomprehension. Most people have absolutely no idea what you actually "do" when playing an RPG, and it isn't easy to explain either. When I had the first session at my place a few months ago, my fiance was assuming (and rather apprehensive) that they would show up dressed like vikings or something. She was pleasantly surprised when a bunch of normal-looking, well-mannered and hygienic individuals arrived, and that we spent most of the time laughing rather than talking in funny voices. Lots of people think playing an RPG and LARP'ing are the same thing, for example.
And how "out" you want to be will depend upon your immediate environment. If you work in the professions (legal for Seb, medical for Allen, accounting for me) you need to appear professional. As Seb says, the last thing you need is your boss thinking you are a nutter, if you are remotely ambitious. I suspect my D&D playing didn't help my prospects where I was before. Office politics are treacherous - declare a fondness for a hobby which most people really don't understand, but which has some deeply iffy social stereotypes and stigmas (stigmata?) attached, and you could be stymying your career. The actual impact might be small by itself, but why plant a seed of doubt when you don't have to? As my last boss said (though not in this context): it is all about appearances. If you are an actor like Mr Logue, or you don't need to hold down a job (a student, basically) or you work in the industry like Mr Sutter, then obviously you can be more open because either appearances don't matter so much or are in fact key to the job in hand.
Personally, I think it would be nice if you could say you play D&D and don't immediately get labelled a geek. But I would be surprised if it happens soon.
If you are an actor like Mr Logue, or you don't need to hold down a job (a student, basically) or you work in the industry, then obviously you can be more open.
Yeah, except I also work at as a teacher at a very exclusive private high school (where the kids parents pay more than I paid for a semester of college to send their kids). I am open there too. And I was surprised most of my kids were also gamers (75% at least). Also, my boss turned out to be a closet gamer. Before this I taught at a University and three out of the seven faculty in my department were gamers. I was open there too. Before this I was a Fulbright Scholar in Beijing, and represented the Fulbright all over America too at conferences...and I told everyone I gamed, and found that yes, many many Fulbright Scholars also played Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe I am just lucky, but I think it is more a matter of being open about it dispels the weirdness factor of it.
I also find that we are the First Contact for a lot of non-gamers, and if we act all closety and weird about it, I think they assume its weird. Whereas if we just mention off-hand "A bunch of my buddies are coming over to play some games tonight..." and then ease into "it's kind of like a board game - like chess or monopoly, but a little different..." to "well...it has an element of collaborative storytelling or even improv acting to it too..." eventually to "yeah, I play Dungeons and Dragons and its a really good time...you should try it! If you want you can join our game for a night and see what you think." You'd be stunned if I told you how many converts I racked up using the above methodology. Usually about ten players a year. Whole cults of gamers. And none of them think they need to be closety because I was very very open about it originally in their First Contact experience. A lot of these new players are stunned when they learn a lot of other gamers are not open about their interest in the hobby and they are always like: "Why don't they tell people they play? It's loads of fun."
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Yeah, I take your point, but part-time teaching is not the same as working in an office where you colleagues are also your competitors, to some extent. Hanging out with a bunch is kids is nice if you like that sort of thing (personally, I find anyone under the age of 25 who isn't a relative quite annoying - it should be Aubrey the Curmudgeonly) (and that probably sounds a lot more patronising than was intended) but they probably all like you, and don't need to trample you in order to further their own careers. I make it sound more brutal than it possibly is - I actually have a reasonable time at work, earn good money, and most of my colleagues are fine - but that subtext is always there, even with your friends at work.
Also, sorry - I have no idea what a Fullbright scholar is.
"Jimmy the Noob Suts"
Lol, I wonder how much of this he gets around the office.
Anyway, to me Dungeon has always been about good stories first. Heck, I remember that in the days of second edition we stopped playing the critically acclaimed 'Temple of Elemental Evil' because it was turning into a boring hack-'n-slash and turned to Dungeon adventures because they offered more in terms of plot and intrigue. It is because Dungeon offers (and has always offered) this kind of ROLE-playing stories that I buy the magazine.
Also, sorry - I have no idea what a Fullbright scholar is.
Well it means dey full bright, innit?
I don't talk to foreigners -- they ain't normal :/
Also, I think this should be another thread, but I am totally closeted about being a gamer...
Me too :/
Society is largely about enforcing codes of conduct -- that's not all bad, but most fringe activities (among them, RPing) are met with disapproval. It's conformity that leads to popularity and success.
Well it means dey full bright, innit?Actually, Ali G is probably the only English person who talks like that. Innit.
It's been happening, according to some Brit friends of mine. They can't understand how a question suddenly became not a question.
And then there's the all purpose brilliant.
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It's been happening, according to some Brit friends of mine. They can't understand how a question suddenly became not a question.
And then there's the all purpose brilliant.
I use brilliant quite a lot. I remember in Lansing once, a guy at the State Capitol gave us some direction and I said, "Brilliant," as a sort of thanks.
He gazed at me loftily and said, "No, not brilliant. But helpful."
Have to say they've got us on that one. Our use of 'Brilliant' has become nonsensical. Nevertheless, I overuse it too.
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Also, I think this should be another thread, but I am totally closeted about being a gamer. I am slowly working on getting the idea of getting computer games to be accepted by my co-workers and business associates. Admitting to gaming is like admitting you are a drag queen. I'm sure the large drag queen community is full of support for their fellow queens, and that possibly many drag queens live normal lives and are professionals just like everyone else. But, at the end of the day, no CEO wants to know that their lawyer dresses up like a woman on weekend, just as no CEO wants to know that said lawyer gets together with a bunch of friends and pretends to be an elf with a magic sword killing dragons. At heart, this hobby is part let's pretend, part fantasy novel, and entirely unfit for adults.
I love it, I can't quit it, but I sure as hell won't admit to it.
I'm not closeted but I probably don't advertize.
My last job there were 3 of us in the department who gamed, and it was great fun. Plenty to yammer on about.My wife worked there first, and found out that one guy gamed (he wasn't forthcoming until he found out she was a video game fanatic), then I sorta ended up working there too...
Then, there was another guy at that hospital in computer app's who wanted to get up a Rifts game.
And there was a guy who delivered radioactive stuff to us, that I saw a few months later at the flgs with a pile of books; I told him we just outed eachother.
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Another thing I've noticed,...there's a lot of students who come through where I work; they're usually in their 20's. Most of them don't know what pnp is even, but a lot of them play WoW, or at least know what it is. I tell them "DnD is the forebear of WoW; we do the same thing except with dice, and the dungeonmaster does what the computer does."
Cute outing story - one of my (attractive, young, female) gamer friends was in a bookstore coffee shop the other day, and saw a guy sitting on the other side of the room reading the DMG. When he saw her looking at him, he blushed and did his best to hide the DMG behind his other books. She, in response, didn't give any sign that she'd noticed, just sat down at her own table... and pulled out her character sheet to level up. He immediately got a huge grin, and brought the DMG back out. They never spoke, just sat there doing their own nerdy things, but it totally made her day... and probably his, too.
Anyhow, this conversation just reminded me of that.
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Cute outing story - one of my (attractive, young, female) gamer friends was in a bookstore coffee shop the other day, and saw a guy sitting on the other side of the room reading the DMG. When he saw her looking at him, he blushed and did his best to hide the DMG behind his other books. She, in response, didn't give any sign that she'd noticed, just sat down at her own table... and pulled out her character sheet to level up. He immediately got a huge grin, and brought the DMG back out. They never spoke, just sat there doing their own nerdy things, but it totally made her day... and probably his, too.
Anyhow, this conversation just reminded me of that.
That's rather sweet - thanks for sharing that.
Don't be ashamed of your nerdiness. Embrace it.
Yup. Get your geek on, dudes!
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Cute outing story - one of my (attractive, young, female) gamer friends was in a bookstore coffee shop the other day, and saw a guy sitting on the other side of the room reading the DMG. When he saw her looking at him, he blushed and did his best to hide the DMG behind his other books. She, in response, didn't give any sign that she'd noticed, just sat down at her own table... and pulled out her character sheet to level up. He immediately got a huge grin, and brought the DMG back out. They never spoke, just sat there doing their own nerdy things, but it totally made her day... and probably his, too.
Anyhow, this conversation just reminded me of that.
One year ago a new female player joined my group. She was a total D&D newbie and had never heard about D&D before.
For that reason she probably never thought about anything closet like (interesting expression), and read her PH during her trip to work (in tram). She caused a lot of curiousity, but then most people probably didn't know which kind of weird book she was actually reading... :p
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... and as my 3 cents:
I read the editorial, and felt like a spectator: I am not as young as the authour, but I am not a 1st edition "veteran" either. I read similar discussion as this one before, too.
I don't know any of the original "legendary" adventures (like keep on the borderland), but I got an impression by some 3rd edition Dungeoncrawl adventures which seemed to be heavily inspired by these "ancestors".
I am wondering if there is really so much difference between old style and more recent adventures, or if just the presentation is different. Old dungeons were more geometric and bigger. But what was the difference between a good and a very good adventure by then? The number of monsters and traps? Or the plot that connected encounters?
If discussions start because of these differences or because of new encounter formats in WotC adventures: It is rather about presentation.
And as some other contributors to this thread already mentioned: It is up to you, the reader, to adapt any adventure to your favourite D&D style.
Personally I think a lot of nostalgia gets in the way of people's judgement when thinking of the older adventures. I've played D&D since '82 and played the classic scenarios. However, most had very little in the way of intrigue and were classic dungeon crawls; very two-dimensional. Rooms were mostly filled with monsters with very little explanation as to why they were there or what their role in the greater scheme was. In short, the encounters didn't link up as well as they do now.
I think it's a classic case of rose-tinted glasses. The game was new for a lot of us back then and very exciting given we were a lot younger. Combine that with a 25-year old memory and you can guarantee some distortion.
Short of gaming while in high school and college, almost all of the gaming friends I have had have held down successful jobs/careers/relationships.
The cliche of the gaming geek is sort of like most cliches and stereotypes: overblown with a shade of the truth at the core.
And this comes from an old school 1st edition "hack and slasher" - who always found the RPing aspects of D&D as fun as chucking dice - along with all my gaming friends.
I found the editorial a bit off on its view of gaming and the gaming culture, but James Sutter is making money from gaming, I am not (though I used to run conventions and own a gaming store). He almost certainly has a more acute view than I do. Still, something just seems a bit "wrong" with the views expressed in the editorial. I wish I could put my finger on it, but I can't.
Thinking about it, I now know what bothers me about James Sutter's editorial.
The lines about fans who labor over old cars and ham radios does not sit right.
While true that the cars and technology of yesteryear are no longer in use to a wide number of people, hobbyist of those things LOVE those things.
No duh, right?
But what did not sit right with me while I read Mr. Sutter's views was echos of my early days as a gamer (back in '83-'84). I remember going to hobby shops and looking through modules and miniatures and wargamers would sneer at me and make comments about how childish D&D was and how I should step up to their table and try a "real" game.
I tried them, found them boring (for the most part - later I fell in love with Car Wars and Battletech and were told by those same wargame snobs that those were also not "real games), and kept right on RPing.
I get the same feel from what James Sutter says about Hack and Slash. True, it IS lowbrow gaming, but most of our popular entertainments are pretty lowbrow. And thank goodness, too!
Hack and Slash has as much a place in gaming as does LARPing, RPing sessions where not a single die is thrown, a wargame involving chits re-fighting the battle of Bunker Hill, a game of Clue or Scrabble, and so on.
I sensed a little bit of elitism in James Sutter's comments, and while he pobably had no intention of coming off as an elitist, some of his comments came off that way to me.
But hey, the young'un had his say, as he will have again in the future, for one day he may be the Head Honcho at Dungeon.
Admitting to gaming is like admitting you are a drag queen.
I love it, I can't quit it, but I sure as hell won't admit to it.
Wait...
You're a drag queen?!
:-0
(Sorry - j/k!)
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As James' fellow metal bandmate (sorry to plug it, http://www.shadowatmorning.com - perfect for a savage, mead-swilling good time - back on topic now)
You guys can lay down the smack! Sounds great!
Simply put, World of Warcraft and numerous other MMOs and CRPGs now provide much of the same immersion D&D provides IF you're playing simply for gear acquisition, leveling, treasure looting, or simple monster romping.
I am with you so far...
Guilds and the advent of VOIP technologies are coming dangerously close vis a vis the social unity and collective experience aspects.
This is only partially true given the inherent "broken-ness" of the MMO environment. We all know of the Death March Guilds that yell 50DKP MINUS!!! into their mikes. Certainly they do not represent the "social unity" of the gaming table, and the experience is collective in the same sense boot camp is a collective exprience: lots of people suffering together and thus forming a bond. And while I readily admit sane guilds exist out there, the limited content (more on this below) reduces the difference between the Death March guilds and the saner guilds to one of degree.
Left is the collective storytelling of which D&D (and other pen and paper games) excel at.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here. But, now on to a point you have missed, a critical one IMO...
What PnP really excels at, even more than the collective storytelling, is flexibility. CRPG's and MMO's (and I have played a fair share) simply cannot match the flexibility of a PnP game environment. Options - real options, are simply not available to the CRPG/MMO player. PnP players can bring their full problem-solving skills to bear on an issue. Stopped by a door that has a magical puzzle lock? Dig your way around it or use that Passwall scroll you have saved. (When was the last time you could dig a new tunnel in a CRPG or MMO to bypass a blocked area?). Need to enter a castle? Fly over the walls invisibly rather than plow through the mooks. Enering a series of narrow corridors filled with tough skelitons? Bring along a mobile barricade that allows you to use missle weapons and spells while keeping them at bay. And what if you wanted to be the evil necromancer and work in conjunction with the BBEG or just a druid that wishes to live in peace alongside the supposededly evil centaurs while you focus on the overhunting of dinosaurs that roam the plains? (WoW horde-side reference there for you non-WoW folks.) RPGs and MMOs simply cannot provide this flexibility. You are forced into a mode of problem solving that is inherently linear and many times inherently nonsensical. Why in the name of the gods would I cross the river at the bridge held by so many enemies when I could portage a boat and cross at my leisure? Why can't I at least try!? Argh! (ok so I am done with this point, but you get the idea... *breathes deeply*).
Oh and, you don't want to get me started about persistence...
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My gaming group now has two adult players who never played the game prior to AOW. One is a young, attractive female manager of an adventure sports shop. The kind that sells kayaks, scuba stuff, triathlon equip, guns, etc. When I first tried to get her into the game, she definitely laid down the stereotypical statements about D&D being for pasty-white nerds. She even asked me how you ever 'win' the game. It's not easy to explain to someone who doesn't know the game that you win just by playing.
I think most of the people who work at her store know she games now, and she's taken her fair share of ribbing for it. But she's not a closeted gamer, nor is her husband (who I also converted), nor is my wife. Still, just getting her to get into the game (and she's now pretty much hooked) was a personal victory. I guess that skews my opinion, but I also have the general idea that gaming is more mainstream than back in the day.
P.S: Just in case I've accidentally killed the controversy... what do you all think about the idea that much of the remaining stigma against gamers might be the result of gamers themselves embracing and perpetuating stereotypes? I've frequently thought that, if every gamer suddenly came out of the closet and said "yeah, I game, and it's awesome - so what?", the sudden show of force might normalize our hobby overnight. So what do you think - might we just be our own biggest oppressors?
Interesting idea Mr. Sutter, coming out of the dice bag so to speak. However, it is unlikely to work in most communities in a positive fashion outside of the FLGS's. Gaming has a rather serious stigma in many work circles, often due to the efforts of certain religiously-affiliated groups who shall remain nameless, and of course misguided parental/familial units who make no attempt to comprehend the simple fact that gaming is a social hobby like many others.
Those who ask me what that funny looking stuff is littering the back seat of my car are told - once I check to make sure that the stuff isn't trying to come to life and exercise thier language skills.
Regarding what seems to be the original point of the editorial: Tabletop RPGs, like gaming in general, will continue to evolve. The specific strengths of the hobby - unlimited special effects budgets (imagination), the enormous potential of unscripted ad-lib dialog (impromptu role-play, often involving smack talk but occassionally digressing into 'character developement', ' character trauma that doesn't involve weaponry / explosives / fireballs ', ad nauseam), the availability of a wide variety of eye candy / play aids (mats, minis, dice) and the awesome general fun of a group of people that start out as strangers only to evolve over time into a recurring improvised storyline that has no set script (unless running a module - although those are readily 'modifiable' ... heh heh ... ) is a truly unique mixture that belongs solely to the tabletop gamers.
Sure, you can get more into 'pure roleplay' - but as with just about all things, taking anything to extreme is not 'healthy', for lack of a better word. The best games mix many many elements. Roleplay, combat, investigations, fun time, and generalized socialization with each other when they come together and 'gel' are just ... awesome.