I disallowed Druids for ages because I considered them horribly OPed.
Now, with Pathfinder, one player beseeched me into letting her play a Druid and (foolishly) I agreed.
With 25 point buy I feel that at Level 8 with slightly sub average equipment, the Druid is overshadowing the other chars at almost everything they do.
The great cat animal companion alone is doing more damage than the Rogue flanking or the Paladin. When she is in bear form the damage between her and her cat is even higher than that of the dedicated two-handed Fighter who really can't do anything else.
Now my experience with Druids is zero, so my question is:
how does this scale as the party progresses?
I can see us playing to about level 15 and I am inclined to put some restriction on the companion at least.
Party is:
Rogue (2-weapon str rogue)
Alchemist (former 2-H Fighter, now support cloud bomber)
Wizard (full support)
Priest (close combat support)
Paladine (sword&board)
Druid
Her Stats in Bearform with a Belt of Physical Perfection are (as far as I recall)
STR 28
CON 20
DEX 16
WIS 16
INT 10
CHR 8
Her only weakness is a rather low AC of 19 or 20, which is offset by the highest HP count in the party coupled with occasional in combat healing by the priest.
An Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 and the belt are her only magic items. Feats are leaned towards melee combat (Power Attack, Weapon Focus Claw, Weapon Focus Bite...).
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What bear type are they changing into? As far as I knew, you picked a form from the bestiary and used that forms size and physical attacks as written. You don't take the form of something smaller and scale it up. I could be wrong though, but I thought that was how it worked.
I play a melee druid in Pathfinder Society and I can tell you, the AC hurts BAD. It doesn't matter how much damage they are doing because once they engage, they are taking a major beatdown at 7 with 19 AC. Are your combats high strength/low quantity enemies? I was always apprehensive about wildshaping due to the number of near deaths (one actual death) I had from the auto-hits in animal form. If there are only a few enemies, a pounce/rake companion and a charging large form are going to do serious damage on the first round.
At level 9, my companion is a T-Rex(3d6+22 bite, 6d6 with vital strike) and my favored forms are Dinonycus(Med, pounce, 4 attacks), Sabertooth Tiger (Large,Pounce/Rake, 3 attacks), Allosaurus(Huge, pounce/rake, 3 attacks). Druids are big time damage, but there are sacrifices made. Casting it terribly subpar and you don't heal yourself during battle.
At first glance i'd say you are adding the size modifiers for wildshape to a large bear as far as i know you only get the modifiers from wildshape not the ones for size change.
Statwise it is irrelevant in which form you shape. All give you the same basic modifiers (+4 STR for large animal shapes).
Soo, with an 18 STR +2 Human +4 Belt +4 Wildshape you sit at 28 STR.
I don't have the actual stats here, but I went over them twice in the past and made sure they are right as the player doesn't always have a firm grip of the rules because her english is shaky. Of course the belt of physical might (accidently called it perfection in the original post) plays a role but even with -4 to con the problem wouldn't be much different.
Regarding the low AC - yes it is a disadvantage, but it is not that I have problems with the absolute power of the druid, I can still easily devise encounters that challenge the party, it is with the relative disparage that I have problems.
A char that does three times the damage than the next best hitter PLUS having spells PLUS having great utility PLUS have good survivability is just too much.
I haven't played a melee focused Druid personally, but from everything I've heard 7-8 are their best levels by a pretty long way. Animal companions tend to scale badly past a certain point and their wildshape (in terms of combat animal forms) is as good as it's going to get.
@Chugga
Ah, ok, thats what I wanted to hear. I suspected as much.
@Gorbacz
Thats not the point. Anyone doing as much damage and more than a dedicated Fighter shouldn't have spells AT ALL. Many of the more useful Druid spells don't suffer too much from a 16 Wis and give the Druid great utility outside or before combat that the Fighter doesn't have.
What are the actual attack and damage bonuses for the druid, the animal companion, as well as that paladin and that fighter?
Anyway, those attribute values are quite high, as james maissen already pointed out. Can you give us detailed info on how they are attained? When I hacked into my point buy sheet, I found out that you could only get stats that neat if you used really expensive equipment, i.e. things you should definitely not have if you are level 8 with sub-average equipment.
And it's important to note that this character put a lot of focus into strength.
Still, if a warrior (fighter, paladin etc) has similar equipment and attributes (not counting beast shape), he should still mop the floor with those stats. The better attack bonus and class bonuses to attacks will more then compensate for wild shape bonuses.
The druid might be able to do stuff the warriors just can't do, being warriors, but if the druid is able to overshadow a warrior, there's something wrong, and that something isn't the game. There is some huge discrepancy in things - maybe the druid's player was a lot better at optimisation, the character got a lot more equipment than the others, or something is wrong with the numbers.
I don't have her sheet here so I can post a detailed analysis and the exact stats in a few days. I might have gotten Con wrong (base 14 instead of 16) and maybe Dex is 2 lower as well. This however doesn't subtract anything from the damage.
However, the druid alone is not the problem, a Fighter can outdamage the Druid easily and be a bit more sturdy.
BUT, druid+animal companion (often flanking each other) are a completely different story. A great cat with pounce is an efficient combatant in its own right unless the Fighter finally gets his critical hit feats.
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@Chugga
Ah, ok, thats what I wanted to hear. I suspected as much.@Gorbacz
Thats not the point. Anyone doing as much damage and more than a dedicated Fighter shouldn't have spells AT ALL. Many of the more useful Druid spells don't suffer too much from a 16 Wis and give the Druid great utility outside or before combat that the Fighter doesn't have.
I can build you a lvl 8 Fighter that will outdamage that druid by a long shot.
Yeah, as I said, I don't have a problem with the druid as a GM but with the fact that the numbers the druids player is telling into the group during combat are at least twice as high as the numbers of everyone else.
I don't know about you and your group, but my players start feeling insignificant if they hit 50% of the time for 20 damage when the druid spews out like 60 damage in 70% of all combat rounds.
Playing the animal companion as an NPC might be a solution, but an arkward one.
I simply can't understand why Paizo made the Duids Animal Companion thus powerful when the Duid really doesn't need a walking damage add at all.
I can build you a lvl 8 Fighter that will outdamage that druid by a long shot.
"by a long shot"? I find that doubtful. Out Falchion 1/2 orc 7th Fighter/1st Babarian was optimized to the core (28 str with good ac) and while surely not being outdamaged by the druid neither could he do more damage "by a longt shot" - especially not if factoring in pounce for the cat and flanking for cat + druid.
I think it would really help to see what kind of builds the other players in the party have. I have seen, more than once, people upset about a discrepancy in their party, only to see that the other people in the group were built sub-optimally.
Additionally, what kind of encounters are you using? Single/multiple opponents? High/Low CRs? Are you using evil-aligned enemies? All of these things drastically affect how well a particular class/build will do.
I had a group who I told to roll epic stats. It was well beyond a 25 pt buy. The group's druid rolled a bear shaman variant. Her polar bear animal companion took improved natural weapon and other such feats to improve its combat ability.
The animal's claw/claw/bite routine alone out "DPRed" every player character (the druid included). All of them, and they rolled epic-level stats. Granted, none of them had decided to "optimize" in light of the obscene stat arrays they were using, but still.
I was frustrated by this, more so than my players. I started digging around and discovered why this was happening, and it was really simple: I had started them all at level one, and the bear had three natural attacks on a full round, each at its highest BAB, while they only had one each. I figured it would balance out later and left it alone.
Fortunately, the player of said character isn't as active as the rest of the group and tends to ignore large chunks of her character's abilities, even spells, so that helps me a lot. Once she starts using wild shape, I may never see another spell cast by her. :D
Party is:
1 Rogue (2-weapon str rogue)
2 Alchemist (former 2-H Fighter, now support cloud bomber)
3 Wizard (full support)
4 Priest (close combat support)
5 Paladin (sword & board)
6 Druid and pet
K here is what I see
1) Rouge 2 - weapon attack good damage in flanks but low AC, Medium HP, ¾ BaB
Weak saves ,Great Skills #1 Finder Huge # of swings but hard to set up plus a lot of miss due to ¾ BaB
2) Alchemist/Fighter utility, self buff, switch hitter type Medium AC Medium HP ¾ BaB Average Saves Average Skill #2 or 3 Finder Caster like
3) Wizard Full Support Fine say no more Hopeful a crafter Low AC, Low HP, Strong on utility, damage Strong cause he make every one else better leader/ buffer, Average Skill
Best Caster
4 Priest close support Medium AC, Medium HP ¾ BaB, Healer #1, Medium Saves Average, low Skill Best Caster
5 Paladin Strong VS Evil, Face-Social, High AC, High HP, High Saves Best BaB, Low Skills, #2 Healer Caster Like
6) Druid and Pet Medium to Low AC, Average HP, ¾ BaB, Average to Good Skill, good utility, #3 Healer Best round to round /fight to fight better combat better damage wise but glass hammer, # 2 or 3 Finder cause of low DC 3 best Caster
The Druid in this party is filling a lot of roles as # 2 or 3 in a lot of roles but not the best just good at them. It can not hit high AC but can spam the hell out of due 3 of attacks and when it dose hit it good damage due high STR. This is sweat spot for her due to AC of Bad guys at this level plus her 3 attack per round. But this fall quickly off in 3 levels. Maxed on her # of swings the Rest of the beater will get better. Also her Casting is just about maxed out 4 or 5 level with stat item. And then only utility/ buff type spell due to save DC being way to low for level.
The Strongest Player in the Party is the Wizard/ Cleric cause the is 6 targets to buff any mass buff is strong in this party. Bless Haste Prayer ect….
A none Evil, set fight with low mobility, with high AC is the weakness of this party.
I am wondering about the fighter Alchemist if it under power class combo build need to look at it longer or hear folks.
Just be happy druid did not jump on the Team work build Pet cause that is the strongest build I have seen. Cause more folks that jump on the stronger it gets. Cause you could have as may as six folks on it. Team Flank and Team Work Precise Strike +4 hit in flank and +1d6 Damage. Way Better that Weapon Focus and Weapon Speciation in my mind.
PS let Druid have her day cause pretty soon she fall behind quickly in about 3 or 4 levels in BaB # of Swings, Spell Strength due save DC and here AC will not raise that much.
Making her a weak glass hammer. The Priest need to badly be casting Shield Other on her and maybe daisy chain of to the Palladian as well. To keep he and / or the pet up. The pet will quickly be come nothing more that 2 or 3 round speed bump.
Also Belt +4 to 3 stats is like 64K and Amulet of Might Fist +2 is like 20k that 84K in wealth which is more that twice as much wealth that is shold have wich is 33k. That is biggest problem I see. Even if she got it by crafing 1/2 cost still more that what her wealth buy level should be by 9K. Plus it need Caster level 16 to make the belt.
Watch your wealth for Charter level as the party. I would take it 8th level 33k time 4 person party dived by 6 is 22k average wealth for six person party. Which is 4 time as much as what she is suppose to have. That the really problem that you are having not the Druid is to strong it you gave it 4 time as much loot as it should have. So it way stronger than it should be for its level. She has wealth of level 12 and 1/2 level six person party. Which Is 4 level higher. To may big toys. Slow the loot or steal it or break it to put GP Curve back on course. That Big problem not the class but to much wealth given out by the GM/DM.
CR are Set for Party of 4 with there actions and wealth you have to may actions going against(7) you to keep it balanced and your Wealth is off. So the balance swing way towards the party. You need a lot more fight with little or no loot. To get thing back in balance. Or get ready to play Super Strong high power mega game.
Your chose.
I disallowed Druids for ages because I considered them horribly OPed.
Now, with Pathfinder, one player beseeched me into letting her play a Druid and (foolishly) I agreed.
With 25 point buy I feel that at Level 8 with slightly sub average equipment, the Druid is overshadowing the other chars at almost everything they do.
The great cat animal companion alone is doing more damage than the Rogue flanking or the Paladin. When she is in bear form the damage between her and her cat is even higher than that of the dedicated two-handed Fighter who really can't do anything else.
Now my experience with Druids is zero, so my question is:
how does this scale as the party progresses?
I can see us playing to about level 15 and I am inclined to put some restriction on the companion at least.
The Druid is not overpowered. To figure out how it is stealing the show we need to know what is going on with the other characters. The cat is awesome :). I used mine for grappling, but it never did great damage. How much damage is the rogue and cat doing on average. The paladin should be doing more damage especially against evil creatures. There is no way it should out do the fighter. I am sure the rest of you post will tell the tale of what is going on though.
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Dwarven Fighter (two handed) - 25 point build
Str: 18 (22) -13 (+1)
Int: 7
Wis: 12
Dex: 12 (16) -2
Con: 20 (24) -13 (+1)
Chr: 5
HP: 106
AC: 20 (Full Plate)
Feats: Power Attack, Furious Assault, WF: Greatsword WS: Greatsword, GWF, Vital Strike, Improved Crit
With his +1 Holy Greatsword (less cost than your amulet), the same combat belt, he swings and hits more often.
Vital Strike: 4d6 + 12 (double strength) + 9 (PA) +2 WS +1 (weapon) (+2d6 +2 holy vs evil)... Crit 17-20
At +8 +6 +1 +1 +2 = +18
Amazing saves, can use more items (would gladly trade the dex bonus off belt for lots of armor boosting items)
The issue sounds like he has a belt that is more expensive than the entire money allocatement of an 11th level character and sub-optimal party members (two-weapon rogue and alchemist are generally considered the two weakest builds in the game). Druids are top-class, and benefit more from high point buys than anyone else, so they will shine in a high point game... but fighters can outdo them on the melée front (of course, Druids also get full caster, so it's not fully fair).
@Chugga
Ah, ok, thats what I wanted to hear. I suspected as much.@Gorbacz
Thats not the point. Anyone doing as much damage and more than a dedicated Fighter shouldn't have spells AT ALL. Many of the more useful Druid spells don't suffer too much from a 16 Wis and give the Druid great utility outside or before combat that the Fighter doesn't have.
The druid + animal is not the same as the druid outdamaging a fighter. There are two of them. The cat also has low AC. The cat probably also has an AC of about 20. There are CR 8 bad enemies with an +15 or great or hit before buffs. I think the exaggerated stats, are a big part of the problem. I don't know what enemies or tactics you use, but the druid is not the issue.
I really find it hard to believe that the animal companion is outdamaging the rogue. Even charging and flanking, with power attack and weapon focus claw and bite, the best I could manage was a 30.4 DPR without buffs. Without the charge and flank, he is down at 21 DPR. With Greater Magic Fang, you are looking at ~40 and ~30. None of the other druid spells are up that long, so unless they are spending time prebuffing (in which case your melee focused druid is not in the fight) you are not getting that much out of him.
A str based TWF rogue at that level should easily be hitting arround 45 while flanking, and can break 50. Without sneak attack, you are looking at closer to 15 DPR.
Both will suffer against high AC opponents. My DPR calculations used the 21 that is recommended for a CR8 opponent.
I think you may have issues with pre-buffing. Druids become significantly more of a threat the longer you give them. Also, as other people have mentioned, lvl 8 is in the sweet spot for druids. Many of their spells just scaled up from their level 1 bonuses, like Magic fang, their animal companion just got multi-attack effectively giving it +3 and recently scaled up to large, and they are able to use beast shape III. These bennefits don't scale up as quickly from here.
Annother thing I notice about animal companion ballance is that people treat the animal as intelligent when it is not. Proper use of the handle animal rules helps keep them in line, even if it is a bit tedious.
in regards to the sample dwarf fighter youbcannot do the double strength thing and vital strike at the same time they are both separate standard actions.
that said to the op your wealth by levelnis massively jacked up on the Druid. if shevhas that good of gearvand the other party members dontbhen this would go a long way to explain things.
I'd shyest going over the beast shape spells to make sure it's all being done properly