I will (finally) be running my first STAP session in a couple of weeks, right now we're doing a play by e-mail prologue. I'm looking at the rhagodessa on the Blue Nixie, and I'm curious: for those who have ran the encounter, how much of a killer is it?
With it's pedipalps it will only have to roll a 9 to hit the highest AC in the party, and it's grapple modifier beats everyone's in the party, easily. The free bite attack afterwards is enough to drop any first level character. I've read through the obit thread, and the others where people talk about how tough the first encounter is and I really don't want a TPK in my first encounter. In fact, I'd rather everyone survive it. I know, I know...I'm a softie DM.
I'm considering dropping it's strength to 17 and lowering the damage that an escaping creature takes to 1d2. The lowered strength would reduce it's attack and grapple by 1 and more importantly it's damage by 2. It's still a really tough monster then, but it seems more survivable for 1st level characters who have already fought several thugs. My campaign is gestalt and I'm still worried about this encounter, though actually 1st level gestalt characters aren't that much more powerful than regular 1st level characters.
I do think this is a great first encounter, I'm just
worried about getting Savage Tide off to a bloody start for my players.
Creative Director
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The way I'd handle it is to have the monster "waste" a round or two attacking one of the smugglers (perhaps the poor fool who's down there trying to light things on fire). Consider also having it take some burn damage to lower its hit points. And finally, make sure that the PCs don't get jumped by it. They should see it well in advance, either by looking down into the Blue Nixie's hold from above, or by seeing it across the room. The monster's a menace, but it's got no ranged attacks. If the PCs can get in a good round of shots off at first, and if it's forced to move and attack that first round, it should still be a scary battle but not a killer.
This is absolutely a case where intelligent tactics win the day, but if your players are new to the game and aren't familiar with the joys of flanking or aiding another's AC or staying at range when facing melee monsters, softening its strength and escape damage is a good way to go.
Actually my players are experienced and use good tactics, so maybe I'm worrying about nothing. I think I will have it tear apart a thug in the first round so that they see how dangerous it is and try to get in some ranged attacks before closing with it. They will definitely be flanking and the like. My experience is that in general PC's do better then I think they will, and I think this may just be "pre-campaign gitters." Thanks for the response, James.
Does it attack first with its bite, then with its pedipalps, then if it grapples its bite again? Potentially getting two bite attacks in one round?
Does it attack first with its bite, then with its pedipalps, then if it grapples its bite again? Potentially getting two bite attacks in one round?
It attacks with the pedipalps first, then the bite, but the bite attack is separate from its free bite at a grappled opponent, so yes, it can potentially bite more than once in a round.
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Does it attack first with its bite, then with its pedipalps, then if it grapples its bite again? Potentially getting two bite attacks in one round?
Yes, indeed...
My players are quite experienced also (but not so much with 3.5, since they mostly played 1st / 2nd and only a little bit of 3rd).
They came both through the deck trap (halfling rogue 1st lvl , human wizard 1st lvl) and through the door (human fighter 1st lvl, human dragon shaman 1st lvl, human cleric 1st lvl, bugbear 1st HD and human warrior 1st lvl NPC), since Soler Vark and his men had been killed, except one of them who was charmed (the 1st lvl NPC).
In two rounds, the rhagodessa dropped the human fighter (14 hp), the human dragon shaman (12 hp or so), and was engaged in a grapple with a wounded bugbear 1st hit dice (12 hp, reduced to 5 or 6 hp).
But it had already been wounded, and was killed by the end of the 2nd round or at the beginning of the 3rd round.
If the PCs had gone in the hold one by one (as you can read in the obituaries, it happened here or there), it would have been EXTREMELY tough, with some dead PCs.
This was a tough fight (the 3 most able fighting PCs being down), but 6 PCs + 1 NPC, it is a lot, and so they dispatched the rhagodessa.
I think the smugglers' caves under Parrot Island are even more difficult, resulting in lots of dead PCs (see obituaries).
Good luck to your PCs...
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The way I'd handle it is to have the monster "waste" a round or two attacking one of the smugglers (perhaps the poor fool who's down there trying to light things on fire).
That is the "ideal" situation.
My PCs fought on the deck, but were very smart approaching the blue nixie (a long RP part of that session, maybe 1 hour 1/2 or more, and a 20-30 minutes fight), and the fight took place at the entrance of the cabins, so no thug got a chance to go down the hold...
I am not 100% sure, but when in a grapple, the critter loses its Dex-bonus to AC, giving the rogue an easy time to sneak attack it. So it might take -20 to grapple to avoid this, thus making it easy to the grappled character to escape.
Speaking of this, could someone break down that grapple mod for me? I can't seem to figure it out, but I'm sure I'm missing something.
We just put it to sleep through the grate then coupe de grace.
We just put it to sleep through the grate then coupe de grace.
I don't think that sleep will work as it is mind affecting.
Personally, I lowered the HD of the monster. Grapple monsters tend to be under-costed for CR in my opinion (the Grell in the first adventure of Shackled City TPKed me... twice).
Since the Rhagodessa is a CR 2, putting it to 2 hit dice isn't unreasonable. This is especially true if you don't have a rogue. My group nearly lost a few characters to this thing, though thankfully our rogue rolled a 20 just when he needed one (mind you, he had spent the entire rest of the fight prior running away).
~ Bryon ~
We just put it to sleep through the grate then coupe de grace.
Your DM made a huge mistake then. Vermin are not affected by any mind-effecting spells or affects. The rules gods frown upon thee, but karma will set things aright.
I strongly disagree with all of the suggestions for tinkering with a beautifully vicious creature. Rather than go about trying to "handicap" the creature, you should be focusing on how you can make the encounter more palatable through good DMing.
For example, as the first of the PCs descends the ladder describe the terrified shrieks of the other caged animals and the crunching of bones and sick slurping sounds.
As they get their first glimpse of the hold describe a large hairy creature with multiple legs scuttling back into the deeper shadows as they approach. Because it moves away so quickly, they don't get a really good look at it, but it sets the hair on the back of their necks on end. You could also describe the huge chunks of flesh that have been ripped from the body of the woman it was chowing on and how the maw of whatever that was that scuttled away must be massive and powerful.
If they still don't quite get it, have the creature charge out of its hiding place and viciously latch onto the body it was eating and drag it back into the darkness. To really creep them out and respect the rhagodessa show them this picture--> http://www.camelspiders.net/large-camel-spider-picture.htm
Describe the rhagodessa as being like many times bigger than their real life counterparts.
The point is, through good DMing you can help your players treat the rhagodessa with more caution and planning and thus have less of a chance of fatalities without "neutering" the poor monster. If the players ignore your subtle warnings then they deserve what they get.
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Creative Director
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I am not 100% sure, but when in a grapple, the critter loses its Dex-bonus to AC, giving the rogue an easy time to sneak attack it. So it might take -20 to grapple to avoid this, thus making it easy to the grappled character to escape.
Yup; once it grabs someone, a non-grabbed rogue can come up behind it and cut open its belly.
Also, keep in mind that if it has to charge or if it Spring Attacks a foe, it can't make a full attack action. In order to get its two bite attacks (a normal secondary one, and a free one from establishing a grapple) it has to make a full attack action.
I strongly disagree with all of the suggestions for tinkering with a beautifully vicious creature. Rather than go about trying to "handicap" the creature, you should be focusing on how you can make the encounter more palatable through good DMing...The point is, through good DMing you can help your players treat the rhagodessa with more caution and planning and thus have less of a chance of fatalities without "neutering" the poor monster. If the players ignore your subtle warnings then they deserve what they get.
I humbly disagree. The Rhagodessa as written is more powerful than its CR warrants. CR 2 with 4 Hit Dice and grappling tech? That's going to be a rough fight for the party, since it basically automatically takes one player out of the fight (Player grappling mods are simply not very high at 1st level). Combine this with the fact it's part of the first full encounter and well... note the Savage Tide Obits to see that second place for killing players is that first Rhagodessa encounter.
I would either boost the Rhagodessa's CR or drop its hit dice, and for a first encounter I'd rather do the latter so my players can live to see a second encounter.
~ Bryon ~
I'm curious: for those who have ran the encounter, how much of a killer is it?
With it's pedipalps it will only have to roll a 9 to hit the highest AC in the party, and it's grapple modifier beats everyone's in the party, easily. The free bite attack afterwards is enough to drop any first level character. I've read through the obit thread, and the others where people talk about how tough the first encounter is and I really don't want a TPK in my first encounter. In fact, I'd rather everyone survive it. I know, I know...I'm a softie DM.
My players got lucky. The Swashbuckler AC 17, and the Hexblade AC 15 both went into the Hold and killed it. It tried to attack the Swashbuckler but it missed with all of its attacks except for one pedipalp (which doesn't do any damage). It then failed its free Grapple check. (I was rolling horrible). Two rounds later, and before it could act on it's second round, it was dead.
Just goes to show that no matter how deadly a fight can be... it all comes down to a die roll. Your players may get lucky like mine did. Then again they may get chewed up pretty bad.
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Creative Director
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I would either boost the Rhagodessa's CR or drop its hit dice, and for a first encounter I'd rather do the latter so my players can live to see a second encounter.
The rhagodessa's a tough monster, and it's certainly at the high end of CR 2, but it's still, in my opinion, a CR 2 monster. Compare it to the Large monstrous scorpion (it's closest analogy). The Large scorpion's CR 3, has a better AC, more hit points and Hit Dice, and deals out a lot more damage than the rhagodessa (the rhagodessa deals an average of 20 points a round if it grapples a foe during a full attack action, while the scorpion deals an average of 35 if it grapples and hits with all its attacks and constricts with both its claws). Plus, the scorpion's faster and has a pretty nasty poison sting that does Constitution damage.
I stand by the CR 2 rating for the rhagodessa. It may be a rough monster to throw at a 1st level party, sure, but given the situation and the lack of its tactics and intelligence, it's by no means an undefeatable foe.
This is indeed a serious monster at 1st level. 3 of the 5 PC's were in Negs before the monster was dropped by MM's and a javelin.
One thing I sometimes do is roll HP's for each monster. Use the correct die type and con modifier. Most of the time you come up with HP's close to the printed amount (it's math after all) but you occasionally get a much tougher or much weaker version of the critter in question, without "dumbing" it down.
Of course this may just compound the problem by creating the UBERRAGO!!
I strongly disagree with all of the suggestions for tinkering with a beautifully vicious creature. Rather than go about trying to "handicap" the creature, you should be focusing on how you can make the encounter more palatable through good DMing...The point is, through good DMing you can help your players treat the rhagodessa with more caution and planning and thus have less of a chance of fatalities without "neutering" the poor monster. If the players ignore your subtle warnings then they deserve what they get.I humbly disagree. The Rhagodessa as written is more powerful than its CR warrants. CR 2 with 4 Hit Dice and grappling tech? That's going to be a rough fight for the party, since it basically automatically takes one player out of the fight (Player grappling mods are simply not very high at 1st level). Combine this with the fact it's part of the first full encounter and well... note the Savage Tide Obits to see that second place for killing players is that first Rhagodessa encounter.
I would either boost the Rhagodessa's CR or drop its hit dice, and for a first encounter I'd rather do the latter so my players can live to see a second encounter.
~ Bryon ~
If it works for you to alter it that way, then so be it. In the end, it is merely a big bug incapable of complex tactics or strategies. If played that way, the PCs should run circles around it and easily figure out a way to take it down without fatalities in their party. The initial "meet & greet" is what gets most PCs. They come down into the hold and WHAM! they get attacked by the rhagodessa. DMs can help their players out by providing some really helpful hints at what they are up against (as mentioned in my previous post) before ignorantly walking into their possible death.
When I ran the Blue Nixie encounter, the rhagodessa put one of the PCs in negative hp and severely damaged a second one before it retreated back into the shadows. After regrouping, the characters were more than ready to deal with it and knew exactly what it could do if they weren't careful. With the whole group focused on attacking it, it went down in a single round.
The way I see it, the PCs are interrupting the rhagodessa's meal. It strikes to defend what belongs to it and retreats. If the PCs continue acting agressively, it attacks more ferociously until they retreat. It then returns to its meal. Now if it had not already found a meal the PCs (or at least one of them) are probably going to fit that role. And that's when it gets really ugly.
Now for the opposite end of the spectrum:
Round 1: PCs: Oh no! A new monster just for the module! Yes! We beat it on initiative... (PC charges monster, playing Xeph Swordsage with Psionic Weapon feat/ Greatsword) "Natural 20!)
(Rolls 6d6 from crit...) DM: Okay, its dead.. PCs: That's it??What did it do? I guess we'll never know..
Don't worry... there is more of them in later adventures... and now the PCs won't know what is coming...
Sean Mahoney
After reading the suggestions put forth about dropping hints about the deadly capabilities of the rhagodessa and comparing it to a Huge Monstrous Centipede (also a CR 2) I think I will leave it as is. I agree with James, it's a tough CR 2 but it isn't quite a CR 3. And with the powerful nature of the characters in my game (they are gestalt with a high-powered rolling system) and their knowledge of tactics I think the encounter will be fine, if dangerous. As Steve said, it's initial part that I'm worried about. But if one of them starts to go down their alone, I will use my DM wiles to clue him into the suicidal nature of his act.
Yep, the rhadogessa is nasty, and yep, I agree with the CR 2 rating. What I didn't plan on was my PCs spotting the thing and immediately suggesting that they just leave the ship and burn it to the waterline on their way out (I had to point out that their employer would likely terminate their lucrative employment if they engaged in wholesale destruction of her property... too many James Bond movies for these players!). There was a bit of grumbling, followed by a lot of missile fire; after the thing took cover behind some wrecked crates, the rogue managed to creep into the hold and sneak attack it to death (the thing has fairly lousy Listen and Spot bonuses).
Well, I had my first session on Friday and the rhagodessa was fine. A scary battle, but no character deaths. Here's how thigns went down:
The party gets aboard the Blue Nixie and begins dusting Vark and his Thugs. They were easy. But of course while that was happening I was describing these sounds coming from the hold, such as the cages being forced open and the sounds of monkeys and parrots freaking out, then the sound of monkeys and parrots being killed, after the Mera's scream as the rhagodessa chomped her.
The paladin of freedom/bard goes down there, but (thankfully) does not close. Then the wizard/cleric went down, followed by the half-orc druid/fighter and his wolf, then finally the swashbuckler/rogue. (Gestalt campaign.) The druid and his wolf closed but the wolf got there first. The rhagodessa grappled and then bit the wolf, dropping it into the negatives. The half-orc druid, angry with the monster now, gave it a good wack as the swashbuckler/rogue moved into a flanking position and sneak attacked it. I decided that a ravenously hungry mindless creature would not stop attacking the wolf just because the wolf was out of commission, that it would be only thinking about eating the wolf. So the wolf got bit again, and now it's only a few hit points away from death. (We do death a negative Con rather then -10.) But the druid killed the rhagodessa and saved his wolf. It was still touch and go for the wolf, because he was only 2 hit points away from dying and if they had just pulled the pedipalps off of it the d4 damage probably would have killed it. But I gave them a Knowledge (Nature) check to realize this, and they just cut the rhagodessas legs off to seperate it and the wolf. So the party reclaimed the Blue Nixie without anyone dying, thanks to the wolf taking the hits for the party.
The battle turned out just like I had hoped it would, scared the heck out of the PC's but didn't kill anyone.
Wow,
The Rhagodessa did a number to all of the group, no one was left unhurt by the end of this. We even lost our Paladin, being bitten in half, because he made himself a target. That Rhoagodessa was one of the Scariest Combat's that I have had in a long while.
I ran the creature thusly - it felt more "insect-like"; I liked the fact that the rhagodessa could climb up the walls away from it's opponents holding on to it's prey. It might stash unmoving prey for later and return to the fray if there are things harrasing it - I imagined it jumping in nabbing prey, immobilizing it with a bite, then jumping or clambering up walls and away; Hope I got the rules right here:
A rhagodessa normally hunts by jumping into combat, grabbing small or medium prey with a pedipalp (pedipalp +7 melee; improved grab; grapple +5) and using bite (no dex bonus for opponent; bite attack +9; damage 1d8+6) as a free action;
Next round, if it wins an opposed grapple check, the vermin uses a standard action to climb away continuing to bite (no dex bonus for opponent; bite attack +9; damage 1d8+6) it’s prey as a free action. A rhagodessa can carry up to 164lbs as a light load, up to 349lbs as a medium load and a max of 425lbs which represents a heavy load. So, when climbing away while grappling, it can move 20ft as a standard action (continuing to bite it’s victim) with a light load (164lbs or less) or 10ft if its prey is heavier than that. If it takes damage while dragging off it’s prey, it will generally drop the prey and attack whatever attacked it (using a spring attack/bite to jump away from the threat).
Skills: Rhagodessas have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A rhagodessa can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Rhagodessas also have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks.
Well, for my group, it didn't seem much of a threat. Two of my group (Terak, Paladin of Freedom 1, worshipping the court of stars) and Joseph (Warlock 1, going into swashbuckler) readied actions and charged together, striking big critical hits and dropping it dead... I was quite disappointed.
My group seems to be going down the whole 3 Muskerteers route, as all three of them wield rapiers, and have big floppy hats with big feathers in them....
Daemonslye, that sounds like a cool way to run the monster. A couple of corrections about grappling, though:
Grappling creatures are not flat-footed against each other's attacks, just against attacks from non-grappling foes.
I'm not 100% on this one, but I don't believe that the rhagodessa does bite damage if he's moving. Basically, he makes a grapple check to move 1/2 his speed, but in doing so he foregoes doing damage. Otherwise, he's even more dangerous than written.
