I am having trouble coming up with a good way for my players to map my dungeons. Describing the width & length of every single room is tedious. Moreover, error continually creep up in the plans my player draws which ends in them getting utterly lost. Is there a better way?
I was actually thinking about drawing my whole dungeon to scale (save the secret rooms, traps and doors) beforehand. Of course, I wouldn’t show where the doors are as to keep them a little bit confused.
I’ve bought a few flip maps so it could be possible to recopy the whole dungeon before game party starts. As my party moves from room to room I would actually show them where the doors are and describe each room.
Has anyone tried something similar or do you have any good tips to run a dungeon crawl?
I am already an user of the lowly monster-carrying/drawing-a-map-of-the-dungeon trick
As a DM...
In my SCAP, my players searched out or bought rough maps of the first two dungeons (Jzadirune and the Malachite Fortress).
The former was the player handout and the latter I made a rough and innacurate map to sell them.
For the next module, it was mostly caves and I just mapped it on tact-tiles and flip mats. But they were pretty simple caves, and the direction the cave sloped told you which way was which. So no mapping for them to do.
I haven't decided about the ruins in Chapter 3 yet, but I know I'll give them crude floor plans of the tavern before they go there, as one of them frequents it. They may go buy a complete floor plan before they leave even.
As a Player...
I know that I hated mapping as a player, nothing more tedious, what I do now, is I take my digital camera and take pictures of the battle maps to do my mapping.
Before I had my camera, I'd write down in written format roughly where we went, to avoid getting totally lost, but I've not mapped anythign since I played 0th edition out of the rules cyclopedia.
But I think it makes the game drag, unless they are in such a place they need to do it to survive. I know I'm gonna hate the Crater Ridge Mines when we get there in RttToEE.
Figure out the best mix for you and your players to have fun, then apply it is all I can suggest.
-c
well, I have tried many many ways of doing this from huge sheets of plexiglass and dry erase markers to just telling pc's what they see and having them map it on ordinary graph paper. The problem with floorplans is threefold: space and availability. You need to have a lot of them so you can do most of your rooms; and you need the space to put it all out on, then you need to have some way to make them not easily bumped or moved.
I have yet to find a great way to do this, but currently i buy the extra large graph paper sheets at a cloth store with 1" squares and map out my rooms on this. you can then cut out these rooms if you want and put them on the table you play on; for basic rooms like 40' by 40' and such; you can laminate these to use over and over and use dry erase pens. Paper is easy to stain, yet keep the graph overlay for more realizm and you can put some tacky background to stick them to stuff from sticky wax from train set modelers to playdough if needed. I make the 1" squared equal 5' block so that miniatures look good on it; works fairly well. This way you only really need to describe hallways and stuff; when they get to a room you can just wip it out and the game goes faster. The premade stuff is nice for halways and small rooms, but you really want to use this large graph paper for giant temple rooms and such; when you start modeling your pyramids and such with cut up and glued together architectural foam and paper modeling board - you will be as crazy as me :)
hehe gluing the large graph paper to cardboard or the architectural model board makes them more interchangeable and last longer.
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Basically every map is a glorified flowchart, map it like one. Who cares (most of the time) if you know that the "L" shaped room on the second level is a 45'x20' room with a 10'x10' extension off of the south-eastern wall? Usually* all that matters is some of the details: higher than average ceiling, walls made of different material, alcoves, statues, what was encountered there, etc.
*unless a discrepancy in the layout is a clue as to a secret area or something (usually more of an indicater in buildings than dungeons)*
draw a shape, label it area 1, mark any exits on the appropriate sides of the room, if party goes down one of the exits, draw a line to the next area, rinse, repeat. Jot down any pertinent info in a notepad next to the room number. Note any strange or different areas, traps, secret doors, etc.
Easy. Remove the extreme detail. Most mapping is done so characters can avoid traps that they bypassed or to backtrack so they can explore areas they missed and to avoid getting lost. You don't need to know every area of the dungeon's exact dimensions. And how would they know anyway? Do they carry a tape measure? Pace it off?
Keep It Simple Slimy!
FH
I am having trouble coming up with a good way for my players to map my dungeons. ... Is there a better way?
Yep. Don't do it. For years I used a mapper when DMing because it didn't occur to me NOT to. Then I played with a group that didn't do it, and it was like this revelation occured. So much time wasted in all the problems you're describing. It didn't take anything away from the experience in not mapping out the dungeon. In fact, it made the experience much BETTER because there wasn't so much time wasted in trying to get the stupid player map right!
The DM kept track of where the group had been and where they hadn't, and reminded them of "the corrider a ways back that branced off to the North," etc. If there's a situation where the group is having trouble visualizing what I'm saying and it's IMPORTANT that they understand it (for battle tactics or whatever), then I roughly sketch the shape on scratch paper. I've also on rare occasions given the players a pre-done PC map of the area, and built in role-playing storyline around how they have to get it, but that was to help new players learn to vizualize what the DM is describing. We rarely use maps for player reference. Nothing is lost, and we save a WHOLE lot of time.
I agree- I only map out areas for combat, or sometimes for traps (when necessary). Otherwise, just describe the room for the party. As long as you have a map to reference, they don't need to know the exact size and shape of each chamber of the dungeon, and they likely wouldn't as real delvers. As was mentioned before, it's not like they're carrying tape-measures.
Also, in order to get the map right on the first time, when one needs to be drawn, do it yourself, as the DM. I never let my players map, because it would take way too long to relate the info to them and let them get it right. It saves a lot of time if I, knowing the rough dimensions of the room, just glance to double check myself from my DM map, then draw the rough outline on a battlegrid (if I'm off by 5 or 10 feet here or there, so be it, unless that part was important to a certain scripted event or monster's tactics). Any major features are scribbled on as rough lines to remind players that something is there (they can always ask me again if they forget what it is, which is rare). Simple, and has never been an issue as far as time is concerned.
In essence, don't sweat it.
well, I have tried many many ways of doing this from huge sheets of plexiglass and dry erase markers to just telling pc's what they see and having them map it on ordinary graph paper. ...
I have yet to find a great way to do this, but currently i buy the extra large graph paper sheets at a cloth store with 1" squares and map out my rooms on this. you can then cut out these rooms if you want and put them on the table you play on; for basic rooms like 40' by 40' and such; you can laminate these to use over and over and use dry erase pens. Paper is easy to stain, yet keep the graph overlay for more realizm and you can put some tacky background to stick them to stuff from sticky wax from train set modelers to playdough if needed. I make the 1" squared equal 5' block so that miniatures look good on it; works fairly well. This way you only really need to describe hallways and stuff; when they get to a room you can just wip it out and the game goes faster. The premade stuff is nice for halways and small rooms, but you really want to use this large graph paper for giant temple rooms and such; when you start modeling your pyramids and such with cut up and glued together architectural foam and paper modeling board - you will be as crazy as me :)
Guilty as charged, Valegrim. I suppose you and I are at extreme ends of the spectrum. I use a combo of the big graph paper, plexiglass sheets & dry-erase, and choice bits of terrain modeled from florist's foam, foamcore and stuff like spanish moss for foliage, little finishing nails for spikes, pebbles, twigs, etc. ALl in all it's amateurish but charming and the players have become much better tacticians with the visualization. I even have little mini treasure hoards with beads and weapons from old metal minis and spike traps, etc.
My favorite piece of terrain is several 3x3 square cubes carved to look like masonry walls that can fit together to be a castle wall, dungeon wall or city ruin, with built in stairs and a nice 6" tower for anywhere along the run.
I recently purchased the dungeon tiles Wizards released, and while they are nice, I only use them when we have to make a quick jaunt off the map or to another level, and I don't want to redraw. I try to work most of my dungeons onto one 4x3' area, but most dungeons won't fit (Hall of the Lotus Dragons anyone) on the allotted space, so some redrawing is necessary. If need be, I will cover up areas unvisited with black foamcore and try to draw it all ahead of time.
We tend not to map (as both players and PCs). There are some situations where we're sorry that we didn't, but the time saved for actual game play wins the day for us.
We've occasionally done the rough flowchart system, which is plenty good for most situations. Otherwise, we say, "We go back to the room with the gray steel door" and let the GM tell us if something's in our way as we head back.
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Yep. Don't do it. For years I used a mapper when DMing because it didn't occur to me NOT to. Then I played with a group that didn't do it, and it was like this revelation occured. So much time wasted in all the problems you're describing. It didn't take anything away from the experience in not mapping out the dungeon. In fact, it made the experience much BETTER because there wasn't so much time wasted in trying to get the stupid player map right!I am having trouble coming up with a good way for my players to map my dungeons. ... Is there a better way?
I can't agree more here. I always thought how "realistic" it would be and how cool it would be to make the players map it out -- and then you really think about it. They don't carry around 45' tape measures around. And does it really matter?
One thing that I do (that my group really likes) is enlarge the maps from the Dungeon Online Supplements (Thank you Paizo!!) and make the maps with 1" squares. I can cut out what I don't want the group to see and use the rest as a battlemap. I print out a smaller version of the whole map that I want them to see to give them an overall layout of the area, because sometimes words can't describe it just right.
My group has enjoyed dungeon crawls much more since I eliminated the tedious mapping.
As DM I use large tablets of 1" ruled paper from an office supply store (big ones, about 2' x 3'). They aren't real cheap (about $15), but not too expensive either. You'd also need markers for them. These are the things we've seen in meetings, where someone puts the tablet on an easel and draws/writes for all to see.
With this:
- I'll map or let them do it
- The scale fits with miniatures -- we use it for battles, especially given how mini-oriented the combat rules are (it works quite well, and we just use cheap counters, not overpriced WotC minis)
- The pages are laid aside when we move to a different area -- they can be reused if the party returns (instead of erasing things when you may need them again)
Good luck,
Jack
Our mapping situation is mix and match. IF I know where the players are headed that week, I try to draw out the major battle areas in advance (we are fortunate enough to have several battle mats).
I have a few players who feel I am somehow cheating them if I don't give full room dimensions. We have worked it down to a bunch of broad hand gestures and a few quick measurements but it does bog the game down for odd shaped rooms sometimes.
On the flip side of the coin, the players have come up with some sweet looking maps that they can pour over. Pondering the party's next move with a good looking map a fellow player made adds to the atmosphere.
Sometimes those wacky players go off on a tangent though, and that is where the five minute break comes in. One of my players gets me a fresh coffee as I draw the battle area quickly on the mat.
We only use big floorplans in miniature scale for the main rooms of a dungeon (usually drawn with campaign cartographer). The rest is drawn on the clear sheets normaly used for overheadprojectors. They are cheap, you can wipe them clean afterwards or stick two together for bigger plans.
As DM I like to use them because its easy to copy and adjust any layout of a dungeon.
For example: I draw a normal wall for secret doors, when the players find these doors I erase the wall and replace it with the "Secret door Symbol" in another colour.
eh,hem... a lengthy history of our personal use of floorplans...
From the dawn of time we had players attempt to map dungeons, etc., and we continued that tradition for years because we just didn't know any better. This was not only tedious and often confusing, but not terribly helpful or realistic. About 15 years ago we started using pieces to represent the PCs & monsters and arranged them on a large mat with 1" spaces (actually my quilting mat - takes up the whole table!). This worked great for visualization of battles and combat tactics but since I can't write on the mat, representing walls or any confined space was difficult and distracted from the game. About 10 years ago we switched to minis, still use the mat but now have battle maps (predrawn before game day) for combat areas. Within the past couple years we've completely abandoned any hint that characters themselves ever attempt to map (with the exception of AoW AP when one character was a cartographer of sorts). If I have time (and that's a big *if*) I create perfectly scaled maps of every hallway, room, den, cave, etc. I always make sure I at least have battle maps for all combat areas. Many of the hallways and standard rooms are reuseable but I save everything anyway. I hate to throw away anything that I've put time & effort into and also "old" maps can often be plugged into adventures where characters wander off the provided map or explore in an unexpected direction. I make up all the maps for an entire adventure before I start so I'm covered even if I don't think they'll get past room 4 on game night. I make my own generic maps with either Dunjinni or just old fashioned white sketch paper, a pencil & a ruler (you can create a one inch grid in seconds and it's a lot cheaper than buying the graph paper). I have a whole folder of premade outdoor battle mats too. This allows the players to always see (literally and figuratively) exactly where they are and what their surroundings include. Camping for the night in the wilderness? I whip out a forest map and players place their minis on a chosen spot. Then if a wandering monster attacks in the night, PCs can say, "I hide behind this rock" or "I use this tree for cover"; or they can see where the good places to tumble are (or not), where the high ground is, etc. I bought the Dungeon tiles to try to save myself some time and effort in floor plan creation but wasn't completely satisfied.
I think floor plans are worth the effort if for no other reason than that they encourage creative tactics and facilitate game play by skipping heavy/confusing descriptions by simply presenting clearly exactly where PCs are.
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I have a 5x10 table with one of those fancy Chessex Mondomats on it, and I map out the dungeon myself as I go. We use the miniatures and the whole bit. The mapping is not overly difficult or time consuming, and really helps keep combat crisp and sensible. Movement, range, and line of sight are always very easy to determine, and the whole thing is really smooth.
The Mondomat is nice because it almost always means I can go the whole session without stopping to erase, and because it covers most of my table.
I have some poster-sized grids with one-inch squares, inserted into plastic poster sleeves. As DM, I draw the map as the PCs enter each area.
In the past, I tried using the flowchart method mentioned above by Fake Healer, and personally, I liked that method a lot. We got away from that when we switched to 3rd edition with the greater dependence on minis.
I do think floorplans/battlemaps help a lot. They allow greater clarity as to where are each PCs relative to their enemies. Rogues really benefit from them. They also speed-up the game and limits the number of arguments about LoS and who hit who with which spells...This is laways a plus when you are playing a multiple scenario campain.
One piece of advice: use floorplans as a prop, not as a replacement to the storytelling. What I do is that I start describing the combat narratively to get the player into the story and then by round 2 or 3, I pull out the miniatures a place them on the plan.
I also force my players to describe what they do. Rather than having them say "I've rolled 17, I hit" I would rather have them say "I swing my broadsword in a wide arc to try to cleave the goblin in half". Works nicely.
One last thing: do not get bogged down by distances. You are not playing a wargame. If my player wants to get to one end-of the room, I just tell him roughly how many rounds it would take. Do not pause and count exactly how many squares a character can move in a round. A rough estimate works just as fine.