Doing another overhaul on elven abilities. There aren't going to be subraces like wood elves or gray elves or such. Just the basic high elves from the PHB, as far as abilities go. Wood elves continue to exist as a culture, but nothing statistically will differentiate them from high elves.
But, again, their immunity to sleep rubs me the wrong way, and their "auto-search" for hidden doors makes about as much sense as Sylvester Stalone singing opera, so I'm getting rid of that.
In place, I've added two abilities that I think help reflect elves as I see them (and, being the DM and the one building the world, that's all that really matters). However, I just wanted to check the think tank here at Paizo and see what you all thought of them, 'cause I trust and like your opinions.
1. Elves select one knowledge skill (typically history, arcana, or nature, but all are applicable) and one craft skill relating to artwork (such as sculpting or painting). These skills are always considered to be class skills with maximum ranks. However, the character does never actually has to place and ranks in the skill.
My logic for this ability is that elves are very old and should be more knowledgeable and skilled than other races (and their culture happens to promote artwork). I feel that this helps personify this, and doesn't unbalance the game. I remember reading in the MM (though it might have been 3.0, don't remember) that dragons could purchase ranks in Jump without actually spending skill points on them, so while obscure, there is a precedent for it (not that it's so important to me whether there is or isn't, but some people here on the boards prefer there to be).
2. Elves gain scimitars to their racial weapon proficiency list. In addition, elves include scimitars and longswords in the list of weapons that they may use with the Weapon Finesse feat.
I'm also debating whether or not to let them count scimitars as light weapons for the purpose of two-weapon fighting.
My logic here is that elves enjoy swordplay, and are all about grace and finesse. Well, all that time spent training to use swords in elegant, graceful ways should have some tangible benefit. I like the idea of elven warriors, but I feel they should remain light-weight, agile fighters, which this helps.
Thoughts? Comments? Thrown cabbages and tomatoes that mobs always seem to be carrying around?
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1. That's a lot of skill points. Note that there's a feat that gives a whole five (5) skill points. (Not that I've ever heard of someone taking it, mind.) Rather than auto-max, perhaps just enough ranks to make the character competent, since these are hobby skills.
Consider the possibility of creative definitions of "art". I've certainly seen both weapons and armor that would qualify, for instance.
2. I wouldn't treat scimitar as light (which has a variety of effects, both positive and negative), but rather perhaps let it be finessable. (I don't recall whether it is by default.) FWIW, a scimitar is not really much of a finesse weapon IRL, but it's certainly not light.
Craft weapons and armor will not be permissible. How many times is Craft (artsy stuff) actually going to come into play? It's really kind of a null ability, as I see it.
The knowledge skill points are more useful, I suppose, but aren't that powerful. It's a real, tangible benefit, though minor, which replaces the other real, tangible benefit that I took away because it was nonsensical.
Still, I appreciate the input. Perhaps the Craft (art thingy) should be half ranks instead.
Another option that came to mind about the knowledge skill is, rather than providing ranks in it, allow elves to make all knowledge checks untrained, since they have spent so much time studying. This isn't as good as bardic knowledge, since it becomes a straight Intelligence check, with no bonus from level, but is still useful.
More thoughts?
I had thought about giving Elves a +4 racial bonus on Knowledge (history) checks. Basically, any race that lives for 50 - 100 years before adventure (dwarves, for instance) get a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (history) checks, while those who see over a hundred years pass get a +4.
I like that much better actually. And the "untrained" knowledge check is very appropriate. Fits them very well without being overpowering as well. And anyone who wants more can specialize and take the skill. I'd probably give them the extra skill points myself. That way they can choose what they've studied.
One question... Why scimitar? Color me curious on that.
Because after one bloody drow runs around with them every elf should aye.
How do your players let you get away with changing the game every week, it seem everytime i come to this forum someone is trying to change another rule - what do you guys wake up in the morning and just decide to change another rule because your board?!
And you ask if 'its ok', like you really care man your still gonna do it anyway.
Everytime i swear......
Why scimitar? Dunno- guess 'cause it's curved and "graceful" in my way-off theory? It has little to do with drow, really, and more to do with the "sylvan scimitar" in the DMG, I think.
SteveO- Ha! I don't actually have any players, that's how I get away with it. I'm still between groups (though luckily I'm closing in on one at the moment). That means I'm just kind of drifting/free falling through various gaming ideas, occasionally locking on to one that I like and deciding to stick with it (unless another idea comes along that I like even more). When I actually get a chance to start writting/running adventures again, most of this tinkering will stop, I predict.
One other thing that I wanted to check- I've got dwarves depicted as ancestor worshippers. I was thinking, would it be a good/interesting idea to create a communal pool of domains, larger than any individual deity would ever have, that apply to dwarves, and then allow any given cleric to just pick up two of them? I realize this is fairly powerful, so perhaps I'd actually have to impose some restriction, such as dwarven priests have to be lawful.
What'ch'al think?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One other thing that I wanted to check- I've got dwarves depicted as ancestor worshippers. I was thinking, would it be a good/interesting idea to create a communal pool of domains, larger than any individual deity would ever have, that apply to dwarves, and then allow any given cleric to just pick up two of them? I realize this is fairly powerful, so perhaps I'd actually have to impose some restriction, such as dwarven priests have to be lawful.
What'ch'al think?
I think that's probably balanced w/o imposing an alignment constraint (assuming the dwarves pick their domains and those are locked in just like for regular clerics). You will probably want to limit the ability of lawful characters taking the chaos domain, but in general the domain/alignment thing is more flavor than function IMO. I like the communal dwarf thing - Chainmail's dwarves were actually socialist, which I thought was a cool twist on the old bearded bastards.
The elf modifiers are pretty cool, but I agree with everyone else that I would probably give a +2 bonus to the skills rather than max ranks. The knowledge skills (particularly knowledge arcana) are fairly useful in campaign's I run, but if you don't use them, I suppose it couldn't hurt. On the other hand, it's not so much the power level that bothers me as it is the way the rule feels - which is to say weird. You may want to toss in a bonus to Will saves if you don't do the maximum ranks thing because it seems like your modified elves are slightly weaker than the core elves.
I don't see any problem with adding Scimitar to their known weapons, but I definitely wouldn't treat it as a light weapon. Again, it's not so much balance as it is the thought of every double wielding elf having a scimitar in their off hand.
Why scimitar? Dunno- guess 'cause it's curved and "graceful" in my way-off theory? It has little to do with drow, really, and more to do with the "sylvan scimitar" in the DMG, I think.
I think you are setting up elves to be too powerful with that combination - everyone would take and effectively gain a significant combat advantage. Since you asked for opinions.
My suggestion:
Two of the following: longsword, rapier, scimitar, shortbow (and the composite version), longbow (and the composite version). OR if you wanted to grant the PCs more flexibility two bonus weapon martial proficiencies. OR a number of bonus weapon proficiencies equal to 1 plus the characters intelligence bonus (my pick).
I definately wouldn't automatically allow a scimitar to be treated as a light weapon for one they are heavier than rapiers, and weren't finesse weapons. That said - if the goal is to create flavor - you might try something like this:
The style of fighting favored by the elves of (whatever) relies heavily of finesse an precision, an elf who takes the weapon finesse and weapon focus feats can wield a longsword or scimitar (whichever the weapon focus feat is applied to) in two hands and apply the benefits of that feat, in addition an elf with a strength of 15 (14 if the weapon is mithril) or greater can wield that weapon in one hand and apply the benefits of weapon finesse. In addition, if an elf's strength is 16 (15 if the weapon is mithril) and has a BAB of greater than +6 he can apply the benefits of weapon finesse to that weapon even when wielding it in his off hand.
While this may not be perfect I think it is pretty balanced - its nice without asking for wannabe 1st level Drzzt clones.
As an aside - the curved blade (in Europe) was a falchion early on (definately not a finesse weapon) and later a saber - the stats on sabers are in the Forgotten Realms Sourcebook - if you wanted a European feel sabers might be more appropriate - plus there was a strong duelling culture in germany around saber fencing - so there is some rooting for the kind of thing you seem to be going for.
I'll stick with the communal domain pool for dwarves. 'Chaos' wouldn't be in that list, anyway.
Regarding elves, I'll do the following:
+2 to all knowledge skills and craft skill pertaining to artwork, and elves can make all knowledge checks untrained.
I'll just drop the scimitar thing all together, since I've recently realized it would be better for another culture I've developed to wield that as their signature weapon.
I'll still allow them to wield the longsword with weapon finesse.
Their +2 to Will saves vs. enchantments becomes a flat +2 on Will saves.
Sound better/clearer?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'll stick with the communal domain pool for dwarves. 'Chaos' wouldn't be in that list, anyway.
Regarding elves, I'll do the following:
+2 to all knowledge skills and craft skill pertaining to artwork, and elves can make all knowledge checks untrained.
I'll just drop the scimitar thing all together, since I've recently realized it would be better for another culture I've developed to wield that as their signature weapon.
I'll still allow them to wield the longsword with weapon finesse.
Their +2 to Will saves vs. enchantments becomes a flat +2 on Will saves.
Sound better/clearer?
Nice. Letting them make the checks untrained gets you a long way toward the feel you probably want, I really like that mechanic.
Another item to consider re: the dwarven diety pool. In the playtest version of FR, they allowed clerics to worship a pantheon of dieties rather than a particular being. Clerics that chose to worship this way could pick two domains out of all the domains offered by those dieties and change that pick each time they refreshed their spells. The catch? They didn't get a domain ability, just the spell lists. I don't believe this rule made it into the final product though, so there may be a balance issue lurking under the surface.
I reckon the untrained knowledge thing is a great idea - the average elf, being old, would have a fair bit of knowledge about quite a few subjects, and I think it's more than a fair trade for the sleep immmunity etc that they lose.
I don't see how the Dwarf thing could even be a problem. Aren't clerics free to choose two domains anyway? I mean you can have a cleric who worships abstract forces, ancestors (as you said) or even humn/demihuman perfection (think buddhists). It's just that to be a cleric of a particular deity you are restricted. But I always thought the free choice of any two domains was one of the clerics inherent features? All you are doing is creating a flavour justification for PC dwarf clerics to choose the domains they like.
Would you apply any bonus to half-elfs? Would their up-bringing play a part? Ones that were raised in an elven community gain X (the racial knowledge maybe), while those raised in a mixed/human communinty gain Y (the bonus skill points/feat maybe)?
Though they may not live as long and are somewhat ignored/looked down on by elves, I would think that half-elves would try to prove themselves (both to their elven/human kin and to themselves) by applying themselves just as the elves do.
-Kurocyn
I trust there was some infinite wisdom at work in the destruction of my last post by the Paizonian Gods. >:(
Anyway, to reiterate, Kurocyn, that's a good call. This is a chance to do something with half-elves to make them as interesting statistically as they are role-play-wise. I'll have to think about that.
Kahoolin; yes, I'd forgotten all about the fact that standard priests can be abstractionists and choose any domains that they please. My old group thought this was universally stupid in a setting that was supposed to have real deities. I prefer the FR model where you have to worship something substantial to get priestly power. I'd allow a player to describe themselves as an abstractionist cleric, but the domains would need to come from a deity closely tied to their ethos.
Anyway, I like the idea of daily domain swapping. I've left Moradin in this new cosmology (So far, the only deity I've rolled over; he captures my idea of the dwarven race well, and anything that I did would only amount to a name change, so why fix what ain't broke?). I'll let dwarven priests choose to worship Moradin (unchangeable domains along with domain powers) or Ancestors (changeable domains, no powers), and just see what the players prefer. The Ancestors will include all of Moradin's domains, plus some, so as to uncomplicate the choice somewhat. Or something....
Thanks again to everyone, great ideas all around.
My 2 cents,
The Knowledge (and maybe a choice between that and a Craft skill) idea that was passed around is good, +2 for races that start between 50-100 years and +4 for those over 100. However, back in the medival era (time frame that D&D is set) many people speciallized in a craft. I would make the players specify a specific Knowledge or Craft that they could apply the bonus to. But here is a question I pose for those fools that over analyze and are fantastic min/max'ers (I had on in my group not long ago). What would you do if say an elf made his character to begin play at middle age? Why middle age you ask? Well, his thought was for the int and wis bonus from it. I had to give him kodos for the line of thinking, as he was playing a Cleric/Wizard.
Secondly, as everyone pointed out about the scimitar, it really should never be considered a light weapon (I think the dervish - a middle eastern flavored fighter - class ability fits). Then, my question would be why give elves scimitars at all? Elves are from forests, at least in the traditional D&D settings. The real world scimitar originated from the deserts of the middle east. I like to add a little real world mechanics to my games, so with the elves being from the forest, I ask myself why do they get swords even? Heck, I would think axes would make more sense (lol). Bows make perfect sense, and due to their love of swordplay (if you own the 2ed Complete Book of Elves, it is great source for culture and art for them), I really don't have a huge problem with the swords, but I personally think adding the axe to their list doesn't hurt.
I oppose that max craft/knowledge thing as longevity of elves suggests more that they are dabblers, +2/+4 sounds better.
I wouldn't however give + to all knowledge skills, or otherwise in use not make them universal. Many elven cultures (at least the way I play them) are rather closed and often don't pay much attention to affairs of humans, halflings or orcs. Dwarves maybe. So knowledge of history, local and nobility should definitely be restricted to elves (and maybe sylvans, dwarves and other long-lived races).
Also if you have some sort of "barbaric" wild elves who live in pre-historic state (that is, without written word), those bonuses to knowledge(history) should be dropped and perhaps knowledge(nature) boosted.
And they would have different cultural weapons too. Who cares about scimitars when you have kukri?
Again, I dropped the whole scimitar thing. Not an issue anymore.
Elves also don't really conform the the Medieval European model, either, since they aren't human.
And there are no "cave elves" in my world. So that's not an issue at all. As a matter of fact, there are drow, sea, wood, and high elves, and wood and high are the only races likely to be played. Further, there is no statistical difference between these two; it's all "fluff" and roleplaying based. That's why I wanted one, simple, elegant racial mechanic for elves that actually made a lick of sense, as opposed to auto-searching for secret doors, of all things.