If physics are why water should weaken a fire, then wouldn't those same physics exclude a +5 anything from harming something without material form?
The cleric, in this case, is being selective with the rules.
Either reality is in effect, or the d20 rules are in effect. You get two very different games.
To make an ad hoc ruling, my knee-jerk when reading the first post, would have been say d3 per level but I'm notoriously easy on my players.
If I had to call it, after reading the thread, I'd go with no damage. To be nice, I'd let it reflex save against a slow effect that'd go for maybe two rounds. If they're so hard pressed they're down to cantrips, they can take that opportunity to run.
I think I probably would have built a large diorama of a fire elemental out of old furniture in the living room, and doused it with gasoline to represent the "magic" part of the burning. Then I would have lit it on fire and had my player pour two gallons of water on the mock elemental. The effects would affect what game result I adjudicated.
If I had no gasoline, I probably would have said, "A small cloud of steam erupts from where the water hits the hot elemental. 20% miss chance on its next attack."
-Amber S.
Hmm, I guess next week the game is at your house, cause now I'm all out of bean bags (which I use to represent oozes).
GGG
PS Get back to writing, slacker!
So, I was reading a description of the Fire Elemental in the MM, and on the subject of water it said that "water represents an impassable barrier."
It doesn't say "5d10 damage per round when fully immersed" or "2d12 damage if it wants to jump through a waterfall to the cave behind."
So, this means the player dumped 20 gallons of "impassable barrier" onto the fire elemental. I'm definitely leaning towards Slow-effect. The player may have been better off to dump the water on the floor then stand in the middle of the puddle and throw Magic Stones.
(Edit; Oh, and on the subject of "impassable barrier", I take this to mean that elemental fire has properties which push away water and prohibit contact. Picture two magnets with the same charge; the more powerful one tosses the other aside, preventing a connection. A fire elemental may simply wick away water rather than specifically evaporating it.)
Thank you for the input Moik. I like the logic of your reasoning a lot. However, Slow is a 3rd level spell, Create water an orison. Even if I you make it last for only one round, I find this is a bit overpowered. But I had an idea while trying to find an equivalent condition and I am comfortable with the following: a fire elemental receiving this amount of water is dazed for a round. A successful Reflex save negates.
What do you think ?
Medesha--I used to think it would be fun to game with an up-and-coming designer, but now I'm not so sure. ;-)
Silenttimo and Bran--glad my extensive discourse on the physics of fire didn't put you to sleep. I'd probably not know much about this stuff except for several Navy firefighting schools back in the day.
Moik--thanks for some additional ideas on water as impassable barrier. Since it's not spelled out how it works, it's worthy of discussion. Another possible way of thinking about it is like vampires not being able to cross running water.
So, another tactic for dealing with fire elementals using create water:
1. Use stone shape or something similar to create a ditch or depression between you and the elemental.
2. Fill the depression with water using create water--bingo, instant barrier preventing the thing from getting to you.
Good discussion all.
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So, another tactic for dealing with fire elementals using create water:
1. Use stone shape or something similar to create a ditch or depression between you and the elemental.
2. Fill the depression with water using create water--bingo, instant barrier preventing the thing from getting to you.
Good discussion all.
Nice tactic. However those 2 fire elemental were huge, i.e. 10 foot reach !!
You need a hell of a big pool to prevent them from crossing !
Nice tactic. However those 2 fire elemental were huge, i.e. 10 foot reach !!
You need a hell of a big pool to prevent them from crossing !
It's even more than that, Tim. It's 15 ft, 3 squares. Remember when you tried to protect the scullery boy ? Nice job there :))
Can't wait for Dec 6th to see what this "Arrow of Justice" stuff will lead you into :))
****** Minor Shackled City SPOILERS***********************
Just to share, Silenttimo plays a Robin-Hoodesque CG Scout archer who found very smart to send a letter attached to an arrow into Cauldron's Lord Mayor office to protest against the way the tax riot was handled. Right now his companions are thinking about leaving for Redgorge REALLY fast XD.
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Can't wait for Dec 6th to see what this "Arrow of Justice" stuff will lead you into :))
****** Minor Shackled City SPOILERS***********************
Just to share, Silenttimo plays a Robin-Hoodesque CG Scout archer who found very smart to send a letter attached to an arrow into Cauldron's Lord Mayor office to protest against the way the tax riot was handled. Right now his companions are thinking about leaving for Redgorge REALLY fast XD.
The arrow of justice wishes to see the end of heavy taxes on poor people from Cauldron, the end of corruption, financial help for the poorest people of Cauldron !
The arrow of justice wishes a true democracy in Cauldron.
Down with the Lord Mayor's gouvernment !!
I don't know if the Lord Mayor himself is corrupted or not, but I AM SURE some people from his gouvernment are not clean...
is magically created water magic water; or is the water on the plane of water; or blessed water; it becomes all sophic; as gm you have to draw the line somewhere; you cannot possible expect rules for every situation; sheesh, the rulebooks would take an entire library. It is just a matter of scale; does a gallon of water hurt a fire golem; would it matter if it was blessed? could you enchant it to make it do more damage? i guess you could search for ecology of articles for elementals, but I dont think that would help.
I think the safest bet would be just to assume that water of any type is dangerous to fire elementals that causes some noticable effect; doesnt really matter what the effect is if it is damage or slow or whatnot; that is all up to you. I am now not sure if your looking for ideas on 0 level spells hurting extraplanular beings or a basic course of magical physics in a magical world. i really dont know that thier is that much more to say about this topic. I am more interested in how you handled it; if you made a retraction or how you worked it out with your players and how your going to deal with this in the future and if your players are good with it.
So, another tactic for dealing with fire elementals using create water:
1. Use stone shape or something similar to create a ditch or depression between you and the elemental.
2. Fill the depression with water using create water--bingo, instant barrier preventing the thing from getting to you.
Good discussion all.
Silenttimo--As I read the MM, a fire elemental may not cross water period--this means, no stepping or reaching over. Your GM may have a different ruling on this, though.
Nice tactic. However those 2 fire elemental were huge, i.e. 10 foot reach !!
You need a hell of a big pool to prevent them from crossing !
Just to throw a different perspective on it...
20 gallons of water weighs 166 lbs. That's pretty heavy, granted it probably wouldn't do anything to a 32 ft elemental (a failed reflex save means maybe a lost turn for visibility and annoyance, or a 50% chance to miss, 20 gallons would take a bit to wash down) However if used on a more humanoid sized person that would knock them down on a failed reflex save. That might overpower the spell a bit, but that's how I would see it after thinking about it.
would it matter if that 20 gallons was ice? or spread out same mass but over larger area? that is probably all a cone of cold is; how much ice do you think is left over; perhaps it is a velocity thing; idle questions I know, but am interested in ideas, course we are getting off topic
would it matter if that 20 gallons was ice? or spread out same mass but over larger area? that is probably all a cone of cold is; how much ice do you think is left over; perhaps it is a velocity thing; idle questions I know, but am interested in ideas, course we are getting off topic
True, I think it was a fair decision. I'm not sure how I would have done it, but it was good enough. I do agree that thinking outside the box should be rewarded, sometimes some ideas just don't work.