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Hi,
I'm currently preparing to run 'There is No Honour', but I'm having a lot of trouble with the rules for the rhagodessa's attacks, and could use some help. I'm a fairly experienced GM, but not with some of the D&D v3.5 combat rules; particularly those for grappling and monsters' extraordinary abilities. If any of my statements below are wrong, please correct me.
If the rhagodessa just attacks as a standard action, he gets one attack with a pedipalp. If he hits, he gets a free grapple attempt; if that is successful, he gets a free bite at +5 (+3 BAB, +4 strength, -2 secondary attack with multiattack (+5 so far, as in statblock), -4 for grappling, +4 bonus in statblock). This is all part of the standard attack action.
With the Spring Attack feat, can he move next to a foe, do all of the above, and then release his foe from the grapple and move away, all in one round of action?
Instead of attacking with a pedipalp, can he choose to just make a bite attack (at +5) as a standard action when the target is not grappled, even though this is his secondary attack?
If he makes an attack of opportunity, can he attack with his pedipalp and then grapple and bite (if all rolls are successful) all as part of the AoO?
What if he has already used his bite that round on his own turn?
What if both pedipalps have foes grappled; can he still bite as an AoO, or release a grappled foe to perform the AoO with one of his pedipalps?
OK, let's say the rhagodessa is now surrounded by foes. He does a full attack, hitting and grappling two enemies with his pedipalps. Can he bite both in the same round, or does he have to choose which one to bite?
Can he also bite another enemy that isn't grappled (as well as one or both of his grappled foes)?
I guess my question is, is he limited to one bite attack per round, as in his statblock, or are the 'free' bites really free?
Sorry for the long post; the vast majority of the encounters in my last mini-campaign were with humanoid foes, so there wasn't much opportunity to use these rules!
I guess by the rules, yes he would get the free bite on both. However, if he is already grappling someone else I think he gets a severe minus on any other grapple checks, like a -20. That would make it much more unlikely he would be successful and get the bite.
In practice though it is important to play the creature like a hunter, so it would try and drag off its first prey, or finish it off instead of attacking multiple foes.
Sean Mahoney
Paz, as a medium creature, a rhagodessa cannot grapple more than one medium opponent. The normal rules for having improved grab would indicate that you could just hold an opponent and attack other foes and not be considered grappled. This also penalizes the creature's grapple check by -20. Not worth it, but worth mentioning as part of the normal rules.
This applies to some other attack modes, but generally, if more than one creature can normally fit in a creature's space, then it could grapple as many as could fit there. Example, 4 tiny creatures (space 2 1/2 ft.) could be grappled by a medium creature. Again, this is what I do and not necessarily the right way to do it.
The rhagodessa has a bonus of +4 on its bite attack in addition to its normal bite attack bonus as explained in its Improved Grab entry. Which gives it a +9 on its bite attack.
It could definitely move in, hit with a pedipalp, start a grapple as a free action, make a bite attack, release its prey, and then retreat back away from counter attacks. Yes, its a nasty monster. The 3 in the Lotus Dragon Guildhall caverns nearly killed my party of 5 3rd level characters.
One thing to remember is you should always play the monster according to their type and Intelligence. These are just really big vermin with an implied mode of attack. When I ran them I tried to think like a quick striking predatorial arachnid. Once I got a PC into negative hp, I released the character and moved on to the next opponent, usually whoever wounded it last. Once they had downed enough opponents, some of them scurried around searching for any others (still in predator mode). Only after they saw no one else was around did they return to finish their meals. This brief 2 rounds bought the one PC still up enough time to heal one of his buddies who then revived another and gave them the fire power to finish the last 2.
Anyway, good luck.
I don't have the rhagodessa's stat block in front of me, but I am pretty familiar with grappling in general so I will try to answer these.
If the rhagodessa just attacks as a standard action, he gets one attack with a pedipalp. If he hits, he gets a free grapple attempt; if that is successful, he gets a free bite at +5 (+3 BAB, +4 strength, -2 secondary attack with multiattack (+5 so far, as in statblock), -4 for grappling, +4 bonus in statblock). This is all part of the standard attack action.With the Spring Attack feat, can he move next to a foe, do all of the above, and then release his foe from the grapple and move away, all in one round of action?
Yes. It can release a grappled foe as a free action. But if the foe doesn't wish to be released, perhaps because they don't want it to get away for another Spring Attack, they can try to keep it there. In that case, it must beat the foe on a grapple check to release him.
Instead of attacking with a pedipalp, can he choose to just make a bite attack (at +5) as a standard action when the target is not grappled, even though this is his secondary attack?
This I'm not sure about. I think this is allowed, but I've never seen it written downn.
If he makes an attack of opportunity, can he attack with his pedipalp and then grapple and bite (if all rolls are successful) all as part of the AoO?
Yes.
What if he has already used his bite that round on his own turn?
Doesn't matter. The bite attack is free after any successful grapple check made for the purpose of doing damage.
What if both pedipalps have foes grappled; can he still bite as an AoO, or release a grappled foe to perform the AoO with one of his pedipalps?OK, let's say the rhagodessa is now surrounded by foes. He does a full attack, hitting and grappling two enemies with his pedipalps. Can he bite both in the same round, or does he have to choose which one to bite?
Can he also bite another enemy that isn't grappled (as well as one or both of his grappled foes)?
Once you are grappling, or being grappled, you no longer threaten any foe except for the foe you are grappling with. This means you cannnot take AoO's against other foes, nor can you attempt to start a grapple with them. The exception is, as Sean said, with the Improved Grab ability. That ability lets you take a -20 on your grapple check and then you are not considered grappled for the purpose of threatening other foes.
I guess my question is, is he limited to one bite attack per round, as in his statblock, or are the 'free' bites really free?
Like I said, I don't have the issue with me so I'm just assuming that it says the bite is a free attack. If it does, then yes any time the creature beats its foe on a grapple check made for the purpose of doing damage than it gets a free bite attack.
If the rhagodessa tries to drag a foe off that it is grappling, it must beat the foe on a grapple check. If it does, then it can drag the foe at 1/2 it's normal speed. This would be one of those cases I mentioned above, where it doesn't get the free bite attack.
Grappling can be pretty confusing. I've been playing a Monk/Cleric who specializes in grappling for a few years now, so I'm familiar with it.
Let me suggest reading the "All About the Rules" article on Grappling at the WOTC site. It clarifies alot of issues and makes it easier to understand.
Good explanation, C_W. Spot on.
You might also want to check out Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game: All About Grappling" articles on the WotC website.
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Wow! Thanks to everyone for the replies, they've really helped my understanding. A couple of things I want to clarify:
The rhagodessa has a bonus of +4 on its bite attack in addition to its normal bite attack bonus as explained in its Improved Grab entry. Which gives it a +9 on its bite attack.
On the section on attacking while grappling, the SRD says 'You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.' Doesn't that penalty apply, and cancel out with the +4 bite bonus?
as a medium creature, a rhagodessa cannot grapple more than one medium opponent.
Presumably this is because you don't threaten any squares while in a grapple (unless you take a -20 penalty on your grapple check with improved grab)?
The whole 'not threatening while grappling' concept (which I'd not fully grasped) does help tie up a lot of the loose ends. If the rhagodessa can only grapple one foe, and doesn't threaten surrounding squares, it's hard to see how it can get more than one bite per round.
Anyway, thanks again.
Wow! Thanks to everyone for the replies, they've really helped my understanding. A couple of things I want to clarify:
The rhagodessa has a bonus of +4 on its bite attack in addition to its normal bite attack bonus as explained in its Improved Grab entry. Which gives it a +9 on its bite attack.On the section on attacking while grappling, the SRD says 'You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.' Doesn't that penalty apply, and cancel out with the +4 bite bonus?
as a medium creature, a rhagodessa cannot grapple more than one medium opponent.Presumably this is because you don't threaten any squares while in a grapple (unless you take a -20 penalty on your grapple check with improved grab)?
The whole 'not threatening while grappling' concept (which I'd not fully grasped) does help tie up a lot of the loose ends. If the rhagodessa can only grapple one foe, and doesn't threaten surrounding squares, it's hard to see how it can get more than one bite per round.
Anyway, thanks again.
Hmmm. The -4 penalty for attacking while grappling is correct. I wonder if that +4 in the Improved Grab takes that into account? This would be one for James Jacobs to answer since it's his critter conversion. Until you hear a difinitive response from him (give him time, he'll probably notice this thread), I would go with the rules as written and apply the
-4 penalty. Better to err on the side of your players.Now, with the free bite attack, remember that the rhagodessa gets it with a successful grapple. It still has to beat the PCs, which it will usually do with a +11 grapple bonus. If it then drops the PC and darts away using Spring Attack and then a PC provokes an AOO before its next turn, keep in mind it only gets this one opportunity for an extra pedipalp, pedipalp/grapple/bite, or bite attack. I don't have the issue in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have Combat Reflexes.
So, there you go. You should be pretty prepared at this point to run this encounter.
If the Rhagodessa chooses to lose the grapple does he still get to do the damage with the barbs/claws that are in the pedipalps? I remember reading (stats not infront of me) that when someone breaks free they get wounded by barbs on the Rhagodessa's pedipalps.
D'oh! I forgot about that! One of my players successfully escaped one that was grappling him. Argh! I hate when I miss something.
I think that damage should be the DM's call if the rhagodessa voluntarily ends the grapple. I have a reputation for being vicious, but I would probably not have it deal that damage. My reasoning, the barbs are more damaging when a character struggles against them as opposed to a smooth release initiated by the creature. But you could also rule that it doesn't use such finesse, instead savagely yanking the hooks free of flesh. Your choice...
On the section on attacking while grappling, the SRD says 'You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.' Doesn't that penalty apply, and cancel out with the +4 bite bonus?
I'm looking at the Rules of the Game #2, and from what I read, the -4 penalty would apply, and would cancel out the +4 bonus, which is why you should probably have him make an opposed grapple check instead.
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).
Damage Your Opponent: ...If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty.
In such a case, I believe that +4 bonus would apply to the opposed Grapple check for damage.
(Actually, I'm looking closer now, and I think it only gets that +4 bonus on the initial successful grapple- as stated in the Rhagodessa text- and not subsequent opposed grapple checks. As such, I'm not sure anymore whether it would just cancel out the -4 or if the -4 isn't supposed to apply. Dang!)
as a medium creature, a rhagodessa cannot grapple more than one medium opponent.Presumably this is because you don't threaten any squares while in a grapple (unless you take a -20 penalty on your grapple check with improved grab)?
That's a good question. From my reading of the Improved Grab ability (MM), the Rhagodessa should only be able to grapple creatures of Small or smaller size (the ability description says, "unless otherwise noted" and it isn't noted otherwise in the creature's description.)
If that's the case, then the Rhagodessa isn't really quite as tough as I originally thought (considering most PCs are likely to be Medium size).
Here's where I address the question to James- is the Rhagodessa supposed to be able to grapple creatures of Medium size or smaller? Or only Small or smaller?
In any case, I'd assume the only being able to grapple one creature is more a matter of size than anything to do with threatened squares.
The whole 'not threatening while grappling' concept (which I'd not fully grasped) does help tie up a lot of the loose ends. If the rhagodessa can only grapple one foe, and doesn't threaten surrounding squares, it's hard to see how it can get more than one bite per round.
True- but it could still use that bite against other opponents instead of just the one it grapples.
Which does beg the question of whether taht second pedipalp can be used for anything while grappling or not (such as making it tougher for a grappled opponent to escape, for instance).
I believe the Rhago-monsters get 2 ped attacks plus a bite attack, plus free bites if the ped attacks hit and grapple. It's pretty rough, but they are supposed to be pretty rough.
As for grappling two in one round, I don't think I'd allow this. especially not two medium creatures. I would also not allow two peds to hit,resulting in two grapple attempts, two free bites and then the normal bite. Two bed attacks, yes, one grapple, one free bite, and then one normal bite.
From what I have heard it is a pretty devestating foe, but one that can be taken down with good tactics.
This has been discussed in this post as well:
Why is Grappling so darn confusing??
You'll find there that James gives the official stamp of approval to the beastie being able to grapple Medium creatures. He posted elsewhere (can't find it right now, may have already cycled off the board I suppose) that the -4 and +4 cancel each other out as described above.