In your opinion, can a wizard successfully research a 'Coldball' spell instead of fireball? How about a wizard that simply wants to take coldball as a level-up spell? How about 'sonicball'? How about a cure spell at +2 spell level? How about a spell that has no baseline within core/noncore official spell lists?
In general, do different caster classes and different spell types have specific roles to play that they are not only the best at accomplishing, but exclusively able to do so?
Obviously magic is capable of accomplishing anything, but how easily can it accomplish anything?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
In your opinion, can a wizard successfully research a 'Coldball' spell instead of fireball? How about a wizard that simply wants to take coldball as a level-up spell? How about 'sonicball'? How about a cure spell at +2 spell level? How about a spell that has no baseline within core/noncore official spell lists?
Here's my response:
A wizard can certainly research a <i>coldball</i> spell. In fact, I doubt they're really all that rare. Are they less common than a <i>fireball</i>? Absolutely. Would it require a great deal of effort and probably some quest for 'long-forgotten lore' to find this <i>coldball</i> spell? Probably not. As for letting them take it as a 'level-up' spell, I would say no. The spells a wizard gets from leveling up, in my opinion, are core parts of arcane theory that they have simply expanded on. I only let wizards take spells from the PHB when they level (unless they manage to have ALL the spells of that level already, then I get lenient). Now, with SORCERERS, they can learn a spell however they want but I usually make my sorcerer players hold to a theme of some sort. If you character grew up in the wintery north, you might manifest <i>freezing hands</i> as a first level spell and then get <i>coldball</i> at level 6 because your character is attuned with the element of cold (probably white dragon blooded). Sorcerers do not adhere to 'standard' arcane theory because there is no 'theory' involved with the way they cast their spells. It's intuitive to them. They simply KNOW how its done.
TS--you should consider picking up "True Sorcery" from Green Ronin.
The sorcerer in our party ended up taking energy substitution as a feat which allowed him to choose the energy form (fire, cold, electricity, etc.) when he cast the spell. Acid was not an acceptable substitution. This was out of a sourcebook that I do not own so I can't reference properly.
I really get into the theory of things. I like the idea that the highest level spells are the newest--and thus the most advanced. I think maybe some spells were possibly once much higher level than they are now, but as the centuries have passed mages have learned to streamline and simplify them and make them easier and less costly to prepare. New spells can be researched, but I consider this to be a laborious and grueling process as likely to backfire and do something woeful as it is to just fail and waste the wizard's long hours of research. I pretty much define an archwizard as an arcane caster who has moved beyond learning spells and moved on to making his own. I like the idea of slowly incorporating seed magic, a bit at a time, in the progression of an archmage character so they feel more like what an archmage is supposed to be. I hate it just being a feat. I wouldn't consider "Iceball" to be a spell that requires research. Rather I'd require the character to buy the feat that allows them to swap energy types in their spell preparation--which is supposedly how iceballs and lightningballs and sonicballs happen.
I've been contemplating changing the way sorcerers cast magic to make it more freeform. I don't buy them casting the same spells the same way with the same words, gestures and gyah...components?? as wizards would. That's just never made sense for people who weave magic like improvisational poetry. I've been thinking of adopting the alternate magic system from the Iron Heroes variant player's handbook (you make a casting "skill" roll against a DC based on how grandiose the effects you shoot for are). Neat way to make the magic feel different.
Likewise I've decided after taking a good look at Incarnum, that when I run Darksun again that Incarnum will be the magic system I use for it. The effects feel more primal and savage (particularly the totemist stuff) and the tie into lifeforce is integral to the magic system rather than a cheesy "this plane is just different" tack on.
TS--you should consider picking up "True Sorcery" from Green Ronin.
I've heard good things about Green Ronin, but never anything True Sorcery. What's it like?
All: Thanks for the responses. I asked because I've always just assumed that there's nothing special about official spells, even core spells, other than generally being the most common. I just figured that if a caster can suddenly whip up a fireball as part of his ongoing research (a level-up spell), whipping up coldball wouldn't be any harder or unlikely. I further figured (I'm using this word a lot) that the only reason spells like coldball aren't listed in the printed books is because the designers share my assumptions, though I could be totally wrong here.
Here are links to a couple of older threads:
It requires some work and prep time to make it work easily, but it's an awesome magic option.
Something useful in this circumstance
The Energy Affinity feat from MH (maybe Complete Arcane-a friend borrowed my copy, so I can't check) allows a spellcaster who has taken the feat to change a spell that does Fire, Acid, Cold or Electricty (FACE) damage to do damage of one of the other types. For perfect interchangeability you would need all four versions-1 for fire, 1 for acid, 1 for cold and 1 for electricity. Requires the ability to cast at least one spell with an energy descriptor and Knowl (arcana) 5 ranks, so a wizard could snag them at 3rd, 5th (it's metamagic), 6th and 9th. Sorceror 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th (unless they multiclassed to wizard or a PrC to gain additional metamagic feats. If you've already looked at the feat, this post was just trying to help.
I would require Energy Substitution to make a Coldball, unless the PC took the time to research the spell, which is very long and requires a lot of Spellcraft checks in my games (it also gives XP, as crafting a non-magical item does in my games, to help explain why wizards who never leave the library can still level up).
Is a Coldball any more or less powerful than a Fireball? Not really. But it's not in the PHB. Call it personal play style, call it neurosis, but I like looking at the world and saying, "This can or cannot be done not because it is a matter of play balance, but it's just the way the world works." I don't do this to be heavy handed on PCs, but I always fall back to the DMG.
The "Behind the Curtain" sidebar on page 283 points out that while sivlersheen exists, cold iron sheen should not. This is not due to any game balance factor, but simply because the essence of cold iron is its magic-resistant properties. Making an magical elixir of it runs counter to the concept. Also, it's just a cool bit of lore for the world.
And that's how I look at spells. I try not to just approach player options, spells above and beyond all others, as just formulmaic. Particularly for spells, I look at it and say, "The PHB represents the common knowledge of spellcasting. This is what every wizard of the appropriate power level uses and pulls from to learn his magic." Other books represent unusual spells that aren't usually found.
So a coldball isn't hard to come by because it's more or less powerful, but just because, IMC, that type of lore isn't readily available and you need to take special measures to find it.
Also, Grimcleaver, sorcerers are considered to be somewhat different in-game. They do use different words, gestures, etc. In fact, any two given wizards do, as well; that's part of what spellcraft rolls represent. The exact nature of casting varies, so once you've identified a spell, you don't automatically recognize it all the time.
Anyway, wizards have to go through the long, laborius preparation time, while sorcerers just mutter a few words and get the same effect. In game, sorcerers are probably considered much more powerful than wizards for the ease with which they can produce the same magic.
When dealing with the components, I look at it as these things having inherent magical properties that are released to help form the spell. The wizard has to study to learn them, the sorcerer just knows what to use.
That said, the PHB doesn't make much of an attempt to illustrate this, and neither does any other book, really. It's just what I've pulled together from my own thoughts and readings, and certainly isn't an immediate, intuitive conclusion. Retooling the sorcerer to something closer to the warlock would probably have some really cool results, if done properly. What ideas do you have so far?
And that's how I look at spells. I try not to just approach player options, spells above and beyond all others, as just formulmaic. Particularly for spells, I look at it and say, "The PHB represents the common knowledge of spellcasting. This is what every wizard of the appropriate power level uses and pulls from to learn his magic." Other books represent unusual spells that aren't usually found.
Wow, that's TOTALLY opposite how I feel. I've always thought that the designers simply gave us a few examples of spells in the Spell chapter of PHB, never intending these spells to be thought of as more common or special than other possible spells. I think the designers would have included things like coldball, for example, had it not been redundant and a poor use of print space. Hm, maybe I should write a question to Wizards about this...
That view is totally valid and certainly no more right or wrong than me. However, there is never any mention in the PHB encouraging wild experimentation with spell effects, or a statement that these are just examples, and the existence of things like Energy Substition make one feel that perhaps they are more than just examples, but that all hinges on DM taste. There is nothing wrong or imbalancing at all about encouraging player development of new magic if that's what appeals to you.
Nothing much as far as the ruleset so far--mostly why I'm not using it. Here's my justification though. Supposedly a young untrained sorcerer manifests powers randomly, almost like a haunting, but as he continues to work his magic he gains greater control over it. In mechanics it feels like he has a bucket of magic for each spell level that he dips into until it's gone--not at all what the flavor text suggests. I like the idea that for beginning sorcerers, magic takes a lot out of them, and only minor effects are stable. The toll of casting more spells than they "can" is increasing exaustion in the form of subdual damage. The toll of casting more powerful spells than they "can" is that the energies will run out of control again and do something unexpected (not necessarily always deadly or disasterous, but certainly flashy and unhelpful). Watching casters cast spells allows them to get a feel for things that can be done with magic and can lower their difficulties for doing similar effects once they've seen it enough. That's the theory--but I've yet to hammer out the hard stats.
Wizards feel perfect, and there's very little about them that I'd change (except the manditory night's rest to freshen his mind, which I discard out of hand as game mechanicky nonsense) and allow any wizard with his spellbook and materials and enough quiet time (often the hard part) to prep spells any time.
I see your point, d13, and I certainly feel that players should be free to experiment, too, especially with magic. The feat just helps preserve the notion that they are in fact experimenting and undergoing special training. However, there's possibly compromise.
If you want a new spell, or just to create a new version of an old one, use Spellcraft like a Craft skill to make it. This takes time and money and has a certain small chance of failure. As a side note, it may be a good idea to let a caster change the appearance of his spells with a spellcraft check, too. Say, 15 + spell level for a "minor change" (DM's call) in appearance, and perhaps 20 + spell level for a "major change" (DM's call again). Some things are completely out of bounds. So, for example, a mage who normally casts fireball as it is classically described can make a DC 18 check to make it, instead, look like a flaming meteor. Or, if the wizard had declared upon taking the spell that his fireballs looked like flaming meteors, he could make the DC 18 Spellcraft check to cast it as the spell is classically described. This can allow more spontaneous player choice, and if a DM decides that once someone identifies a spell with spellcraft, they can recognize that same spell from the same caster on future uses without a check, this allows a way around that by slightly changing the casting procedure. This could be a nice little way to help fowl up someone who just keeps readying an action to dispel, whether it be an NPC or PC.
However, as stated in the DMG, making the spell look like a real dragon was conjured and breathed fire on the opponents may be decided to be too much.
But I ramble. The alternative to making different versions of previously existing spells with spellcraft would be to take the feat. This represents one-time training that allows a mage to automatically know how to alter the energy descriptor of almost any spell he comes across in a certain way.
Perhaps this way, player creativity and the feat are capable of coexisting.
Nothing much as far as the ruleset so far--mostly why I'm not using it. Here's my justification though. Supposedly a young untrained sorcerer manifests powers randomly, almost like a haunting, but as he continues to work his magic he gains greater control over it. In mechanics it feels like he has a bucket of magic for each spell level that he dips into until it's gone--not at all what the flavor text suggests. I like the idea that for beginning sorcerers, magic takes a lot out of them, and only minor effects are stable. The toll of casting more spells than they "can" is increasing exaustion in the form of subdual damage. The toll of casting more powerful spells than they "can" is that the energies will run out of control again and do something unexpected (not necessarily always deadly or disasterous, but certainly flashy and unhelpful). Watching casters cast spells allows them to get a feel for things that can be done with magic and can lower their difficulties for doing similar effects once they've seen it enough. That's the theory--but I've yet to hammer out the hard stats.
Wizards feel perfect, and there's very little about them that I'd change (except the manditory night's rest to freshen his mind, which I discard out of hand as game mechanicky nonsense) and allow any wizard with his spellbook and materials and enough quiet time (often the hard part) to prep spells any time.
Here's something I hope helps. I really like the idea of "over channeling," to develop a reference phrase, magic that is actually beyond the sorcerer's "safe" limits. I tried implementing a rule like that for all mages once, but it didn't work.
At any rate, whether you go by the warlock's model or stay closer to the RAW, the sorcerer still ends up with a limited number of effects he can safely call upon. One possible "over channeling" mechanic could be that the sorcerer can access a level of magical effects one higher than is actually reflected in his "spell's known" list, or whatever it becomes. He can do this a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. He can access any magical effect on that higher list. However, when using this ability, the sorcerer immediately takes nonlethal damage equal to 3 x the effect's level.
For example, a sorcerer with 18 Charisma who knows 3rd level spells can actually cast spells from the 4th level list. He can do this 4 times per day. He can cast any spell on the 4th level list, but doing so immediately causes him to take 12 points of nonlethal damage.
This puts a limit on how many times they can do it, while still leaving it as a common option. The damage is the better part of their hit dice, but isn't enough to send them down in just one or two castings. Nevertheless, it's not something that's typically safe to use in combat. Outside of combat, it can be used more safely, with either a cleric or potion or other source healing the nonlethal damage. However, this isn't unbalancing or nerfing the penalty, as that's effectively trading the cleric's spells for the sorcerer's (or whatever consumable was used). But, even if the party has near inexhaustable healing supplies, or the sorcerer has unusually high hp, there is still a cap on how often it can be done in a day.
All of this talk about overchanneling has me thinking about the Wheel of Time!
I think d13 hit the nail on the head for me. Energy Substitution is fine for characters who don't want to spend a few coins on spell research or don't like having two similar spells but personally I feel that feats are more valuable than research cash and level-up spells. Why spend a feat to get a bit more versatility, when I could get more versatility from a class feature that I already have?
All of this talk about overchanneling has me thinking about the Wheel of Time!
Energy Substitution is fine for characters who don't want to spend a few coins on spell research or don't like having two similar spells but personally I feel that feats are more valuable than research cash and level-up spells. Why spend a feat to get a bit more versatility, when I could get more versatility from a class feature that I already have?
Researching the variant spell is certainly a possibility. The feat is an option if someone wants to use it. It also applies to all FACE descriptor spells from Acid Splash and Ray of Frost (0 level) to Meteor Swarm (9th level) so it could allow the use of a spell that might not otherwise exist, depending on campaign. Researching the alternate version would be needed to apply the sonic descriptor though. As a house rule you could create metamagic rods to simulate the various energy affinities, using the DMG examples as a guide if you wish. The feats are perhaps more useful for sorcerors since it will significantly enhance their versatility (which is otherwise limited because of spells known) as wizards can scribe a potentially unlimited number of spells (if they have enough spellbooks available on an adventure to be able to access the spell as needed!) =-)
The reason that I've found the Energy Substitution/Affinity feats to be of greater use to the Sorcerer is that he can apply them spontaneously. A Wizard would need to specifically prepare a Cold Ball rather than a Fireball, but a Sorcerer just takes a full round action to switch energy types on the fly. For the wizard it makes more sense, if he has to time, to research a spell or three designed to take out any rivals or nemeses (plural of nemesis? that looks almost as bad as nemesises) and just prepare them if he knows he'll be taking the fight to them. For the sorcerer, they need to be able to get maximum utility out of a limited selection of spells, so Energy Substitution is perfect -- different damage type on the fly, with no increase to the spell's effective level.
I was reading something similar on the DragonLance boards about magic and sorcerers and material components and what not, and I started thinking . . . what if you gave sorcerers eschew materials for free, but at the same time, they can never know any spells that have material components that are not covered under eschew materials? Anyone see any major game balance issues with this?
Off hand this would knock the following spells off the sorcerer spell lists:
Animate Dead
Arcane Lock
Astral Projection
Binding
Circle of Death
Clone
Contingency
Continual Flame
Create Undead
Fabricate
False Vision
Fire Trap
Forcecage
Gentle Repose
Identify
Illusory Script
Instant Summons
Legend Lore
Magic Mouth
Non Detection
Phantom Trap
Project Image
Protection from Spells
Refuge
Scrying
Sepia Snake Sigil
Similacrum
Stoneskin
Symbol Spells (all)
Sympathy
Teleportation Circle
Temporal Stasis
Trap the Soul
True Seeing
Undeath to Death
Wall of Iron
Though many spells remain, I have to say that, yes, taking that many out of the realm of possibility for the sorcerer is unbalancing. Would they still be able to access them from scrolls and staves (Staffs? I know "staves" is technically proper, but in context of D&D and fantasy in general, there seems to be a lot of "staffs" floating around; wonder why?)? That would somewhat mitigate it, but it's still nothing I'd ever go for in my games.
My gut feeling is that it would be a no, since normally you can't use spells from items that aren't on your own spell list, and technically these would be off of the spell list.
Just something I'm tinkering with, and I may offer it as an unoffical "alternate class feature" in my campaigns, but I'd like to hear any more input that comes up.
I was reading something similar on the DragonLance boards about magic and sorcerers and material components and what not, and I started thinking . . . what if you gave sorcerers eschew materials for free, but at the same time, they can never know any spells that have material components that are not covered under eschew materials? Anyone see any major game balance issues with this?
Perhaps, in addition to a free Eschew Materials, you could grant sorcerers the ability to ignore material components of a certain value/level. Perhaps enable them to cast spells with costly components worth 10 gp or so per sorc level; this would enable sorcerers to cast all the spells a wizard can, if at a higher level.
I've always thought that the designers simply gave us a few examples of spells in the Spell chapter of PHB, never intending these spells to be thought of as more common or special than other possible spells.
Hmmmmm, personally I tend to be in this camp as a GM. Although D&D has a much better core list of spells than most games I have run. A few systems I have used have all but required this train of thought as the core list of spells were very limited and had magic users feeling like carbon copies of each other without a little fiddling with the basics.
I agree that spells in the core book represent the most common spells known, but I think that there would be a lot of regional variation. For instance, in a desert region, my guess is that fireball spells are hard to come by as the local denizens are probably resistant or immune to fire. Finding a coldball spell there probably wouldn’t be too hard. Sorcerers, on the other hand, would probably have the opposite trend as they seem to draw their abilities much more closely from their homelands and bloodlines than their practical and analytical brethren. This, however, is a mere observation as I would hate to pin down people as fluid as sorcerers with trends.
To sum things up, I think a sorcerer would have a much easier time creating a coldball than a wizard as their personalized brand of magic probably scoffs at the idea of “lists” of possible spells. A wizard though, should have a difficult time coming up with anything beyond A: the type of magic he was taught be his master, be this the core spell list or something the player works out with the GM. Or B: the kind of magic/scrolls/tutoring that is locally available.
This brings up a question. Although I like Grim’s definition of wizards/arch mages I’m not sure how to reconcile it with the idea of wizards researching their own spells whenever they level up as this seems to indicate that wizards, even low level ones, are crafting their own magic.
P.S.: WoooT Wheel of Time.
This brings up a question. Although I like Grim’s definition of wizards/arch mages I’m not sure how to reconcile it with the idea of wizards researching their own spells whenever they level up as this seems to indicate that wizards, even low level ones, are crafting their own magic.
so what is wrong, exactly, with low level wizards crafting their own magic? in a recent homebrew campaign, i was playing a necromancer who was pulling newly developed spells for our world with his wizard freebies at each level. granted, perhaps that is extenuating circumstances, as we were using the time to playtest the spells in a game setting, not just comparing them to other spells without having particular tactics/strategies to combat and/or implement. anyway, the point is that i didnt see an issue with them being pulled off our "new spells for the world" list as opposed to phb, phb2, spell compendium, etc, etc. i will admit to not being the most strict dm about many issues like that, but a spell is a spell is a spell, too.
as a side note about sorcerers: i agree that the fluff does not match the crunch. the mechanics allow players to take the spell(s) they want, they dont get saddled with "useless" or "odd" spells they may not necessarily want. however, i dont know how to do something like that and make it equitable for the player, either.
tog
so what is wrong, exactly, with low level wizards crafting their own magic?
Not wrong, just a different way of looking at things. Standard DnD has wizards researching two spells per level, as has been mentioned. Meaning that even the lowest level magic user knows enough theory to drum up their own spells given the time. If you go by this (not at all a bad thing) then I could easily see wizards coming up with their own variations on common spells at relatively low levels, and branching farther out from the norm as they grow in power and knowledge. What the separation between this and seed magic is, besides power scale, I’m not too clear on.
What Grimcleaver was suggesting (correct me if I’m wrong) is that wizards are magic users who learn the magic of others while archmages are those who have progressed to the point of creating their own magic. Seed magic would be given seed by seed to archmages in their level progression instead of being a feat. This would represent the archmage’s grasp of magic expanding as he continued his studies. In this scenario I would argue that wizards would be limited to spells out of the books whenever they leveled up (with exceptions noted in my previous post) because they are only learning the spells that have already been created. The only way they could get a custom spell would be by paying an archmage to research it for them and then give them a copy. This spin on things could easily be worked into the core rules by extending and tweaking the archmage prestige class. The only conflict I see is with the two spells wizards get when they level. If they aren’t researching the spells, then where do they come from? That’s what I’m wondering about. Again, it’s not that I think the standard way of doing things is wrong, I just like the unique spins people put on the old ideas and was looking for a bit of clarification.
As far as new spells for a specific world, I think they’re great. Going the extra mile this way can really add some flavor to your setting and I think it’s great that you are doing it. Personally if I were doing such a task, the first thing I would change would be the “named” spells, like all the Tensor/Mordenkeinen ones, as these people probably don’t exist in most homebrew settings and this gives you a great chance to come up with your own signature archmages. BTW, have you posted anything in the campaign journals?
As a side note, I don’t really like how the seed magic feat works. Not the actual seed magic mechanics, but it seemed like too much too quick. Actually, I better set up a thread for this.
Heh.
Where do they come from? My take has always been the following. Each time you level you have the opportunity to learn two new spells--but are not instantly guaranteed them.
I like the idea of wizards as always having an ear to the ground, trying to find some new (or old) spell to pick at. Now granted copies of spells are fairly easy to come by, so often I don't push it too hard--but ideally the thought has been that wizards have to obtain study materials on a spell in order to learn it. It's just that they actually can twice per level.
BTW, have you posted anything in the campaign journals?
no, i havent. i dont do that sort of thing because of the excess bookkeeping it would cause on my part... as a physics major (senior, finally), and because our gaming group fell apart (long story), it wouldnt end up being worth the time, that i dont actually have to be writing this particular post (doing homework in another frame).
if anyone is interested, the work i do have i will pass on, including races, feats, spells, and prestige classes.
tog
uh, yeah, you can reach me at danfreyr@hotmail.com if youre interested... -tog
I was reading something similar on the DragonLance boards about magic and sorcerers and material components and what not, and I started thinking . . . what if you gave sorcerers eschew materials for free, but at the same time, they can never know any spells that have material components that are not covered under eschew materials? Anyone see any major game balance issues with this?
I don't know if this'll help, but my DM makes sorcerers use a spell focus for every spell with a focus or component, so we have a sorcerer now with a whole batch of "fetishes" attached all over so they can be used for spell-casting... This still leaves the feel of the sorcerer intact while still making them find or purchase valuable materials. Like an earlier reply said, this can also help describe that sorcerers just KNOW what is needed for certain spells...