I know that only the first couple installments of Savage Tide are out, so only so much of an answer can be given.
What is the difficulty (monster wise) of the AP? And, due to the pirate/swashbuckler theme - can those types of characters function in it?
I only ask, because our group finished Shackled City a little bit ago, and the difficulty was ungodly. It didn't help that the GM didn't take the time to adjust the fights to match our party, but we had around 50 deaths during that thing (and about 30-40 ressurections) - and this was with the GM obviously fudging die rolls - I think Aushanna missed 12-16 attacks in a row with her bow for example, otherwise it would have been TPK and end of campaign. More than one of us purposely got killed off so we could make a more effective combat machine. And our GM was upset, because by the time this thing was finished, every singe one of our characters were fully cheesed, fully optimized, combat monsters from hell, and we were still getting pasted almost every fight. We did not feel like heroes at all, we felt like the 3 stooges (err, 5 stooges) who got lucky because the monsters kept slipping on bananna peels and busting thier heads open.
Now, we are getting ready to start a "pirate" game. Paizo has a bad rep for making killer modules in our group now :( For fear of being utterly useless, no one is making anything even close to a swashbuckler themed character - and we have 1 guy in our group who absolutely loves pirates. Greatswords and full casters are abound - not even a rogue in sight.
Joey T.
What is the difficulty (monster wise) of the AP? And, due to the pirate/swashbuckler theme - can those types of characters function in it?
Joey T.
I have a party of totaly NOOBs playing 1/2Orc Barbarian, elf wizard, human rogue, human cleric, human druid. I even gave the druid a wand of cure light wounds (20 charges). It was a TPK on the Blue Nixie.
I started the party over again at 2nd level and put them back on the boat to try again...
We'll see if they can survive it this time.
HOWEVER, reading through the adventure it is obvious that if the party is bent on fighting everything they are all going to die again. The point of the Module is to use the gray matter between your ears to figure out ways to out-smart the opponents.
The Adventure Paths are definitely not cakewalks. Compared to some of the WOTC official modules, they're downright evil. I like that, and my players prefer tough adventures where they are really challenged.
That said, if your players aren't long time veteran players who know how to optimize their characters and use solid tactics, there is a really good chance of player deaths. I haven't started to run Savage Tide yet, but I'm going to have 7 players in my game when I do. I plan to adjust the encounters upwards in EL a bit, but not as much as I would, were these typical adventures.
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My group consists of 3 rogueish type characters (1 rogue, one ninja, 1 spell thief), a fighter, a druid, and a cleric and they have made mince meat of the first chapter so far (we're just getting ready to go to Parrot Island). Mainly because the player playing the rogue has had some really good tactics and ideas.
The Adventure Paths are definitely not cakewalks. Compared to some of the WOTC official modules, they're downright evil. I like that, and my players prefer tough adventures where they are really challenged.
That said, if your players aren't long time veteran players who know how to optimize their characters and use solid tactics, there is a really good chance of player deaths. I haven't started to run Savage Tide yet, but I'm going to have 7 players in my game when I do. I plan to adjust the encounters upwards in EL a bit, but not as much as I would, were these typical adventures.
Our group is composed 100% of grizzled veterans ;) Most of us starting playing in the late 70' in Elementary School, the rest started in the mid 80's.
I prefer more mid level challenges. One problem with Shackled City is we do 1 encounter, rope trick, 1 encounter, rope trick, and so on. The 4 encounters per day is blown out of the water, as we use up so many resources in 1 fight, we rarely even have 2 encounters before resting again. Then, there is nothing in the way of cannon fodder, just BBEG after BBEG. They beat us from 1 end of the dungeon to the other, making us thier b~!%~. We never have a chance to triumph and feel like we were heroes, just gimps along for the ride.
And poor rogues and swashbucklers (hell, any melee class not using a 2 handed weapon!) The amount of stuff we fight that has DR we cannot penetrate, ugh. All those DR 15 undead/construct monsters made any 1 handed weapon useless. Going multiple encounters in a row without being able to contribute even 1 point of damage is not much fun. After experiencing this issue in a huge way in Shackled City, not a single person in our new group has a 1 handed weapon - anyone using weapons has a greatsword, greataxe, etc.
JT
I haven't played or DMed a whole lot of 3rd Ed., and most of that has been at low level. I haven't played/DMed either of the previous APs. I'm going to be DMing "Savage Tide" because we love piratey, dinosaury goodness. That said, I have a "rookie 3E DM" question:
I have 5 PCs. Common wisdom suggests that encounters should be made slightly more difficult. However, if having an extra PC distills XP awards and the party advances a bit more slowly as a result, it might work out in the wash (it's conceivable that things might even have to be scaled down a touch at high levels). Thoughts? Suggestions? Leave as is? Increase difficulty a smidge?
My group consists of 3 rogueish type characters (1 rogue, one ninja, 1 spell thief), a fighter, a druid, and a cleric and they have made mince meat of the first chapter so far (we're just getting ready to go to Parrot Island). Mainly because the player playing the rogue has had some really good tactics and ideas.
This is definately good news ;) At least in the beginning, they are able to function.
I will just have to keep an ear out and see what happens later on down, starting my own threads to avoid spoilers, as I am a player, not the GM.
JT
I have 5 PCs. Common wisdom suggests that encounters should be made slightly more difficult.
I would leave it as is for 5 players. Anything more and I would consider making it more difficult.
I am planning to run 7 L4 characters through the AP. I am debating whether to up the difficulty or let them walk through the first adventures.
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My group has an Archivist, Warblade, Druid, and Spellthief and they have had only one true close call, and that was in Parot Island against 3 zombies and 5 monstrous crabs. The Blue Nixie could have been a TPK, but they came up with a good strategy to deal with the Pirates, so they only really had to fight the Rhagodessan, which they did fine against. It also helps that they have 2 divine casters who both took the Spontaneous Healing feat. It has saved the parties bacon on more than one occasion. Especially the fight with those zombies. The Druid's Animal companion was killed and eaten, the Warblade was knocked into negative HP's twice, and by the end of the battle, the party was all down to less than 5 hp except for the Archivist, and both casters were completely out of spells. The party was also 2nd level when that fight happened. So if it had gone much longer than it did, I could have been looking at a TPK.
The one point I want to make though, is that a good deal of the encounters in the AP, can be overcome with just a bit of thinking on the players part. They really do need to use their brains instead of just charging every opponent they see. That becomes especially true in the guildhouse where there are lots of Rogues and the BBEG at the end is a EL 6 encounter.
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As a person familar with STAP as a player I can say that yes it can be a TPK. We are currently looking for the Lotus hideout right now. Up until this point from the Blue Nixie fight and Parrot Island we had only two party members fall into the negatives but there was always one of us with Heal up to help stablize.
As we are only a party of three we were allowed to start at lvl 2. It still isn't really helping much but we make due with what we have and think tactically. This is also with no straight fighter or Two-handed weapons or even Arcane magic. We are just very good with surgical strikes.
As a DM I try to think of the what ifs of an adventure, with the style of play the party has, as does my DM for STAP. NPCs are not all knowing and thus they may react differntly if the party enters from an area that is not expceted. Sometimes the encounter changes other times it stays the same. It is matter of circumstances.
I have 5 PCs. Common wisdom suggests that encounters should be made slightly more difficult.I would leave it as is for 5 players. Anything more and I would consider making it more difficult.
I am planning to run 7 L4 characters through the AP. I am debating whether to up the difficulty or let them walk through the first adventures.
I agree. For five players leaving the difficulty as is should work out fine. I have six players in my group and I always increase the EL by 1, which works out really well. So I suspect that increasing by 1 should work well for seven players too.
I have a party of totaly NOOBs playing 1/2Orc Barbarian, elf wizard, human rogue, human cleric, human druid. I even gave the druid a wand of cure light wounds (20 charges). It was a TPK on the Blue Nixie.
It's worth noting that Soller Vark's tactics have him doing flamboyant but suboptimal combat tactics like disarm and bull rush even if it's not an appropriate moment. I plan to use this to spare my PCs if things go awry. Of more concern, however, is the rhagodessa. 1d8+6 will pretty much lay any 1st level PC flat in one hit, especially if they are wounded from fighting the thugs first. At least it's AC is only 14...
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I have a party of totaly NOOBs playing 1/2Orc Barbarian, elf wizard, human rogue, human cleric, human druid. I even gave the druid a wand of cure light wounds (20 charges). It was a TPK on the Blue Nixie.It's worth noting that Soller Vark's tactics have him doing flamboyant but suboptimal combat tactics like disarm and bull rush even if it's not an appropriate moment. I plan to use this to spare my PCs if things go awry. Of more concern, however, is the rhagodessa. 1d8+6 will pretty much lay any 1st level PC flat in one hit, especially if they are wounded from fighting the thugs first. At least it's AC is only 14...
On that note also, it said the thugs run away like chickens if they get hit once. So that's a big help, even though one hit oughtta waste them anyway.
Yes, I'm thinking that between Vark's tactics and the thugs timidity, this combat shouldn't be too hard. Having the Rhagodessa break out early and attack party and thugs alike is another balancing factor that folks seem to have used to great success.
I agree about Vark's tactics, Erian. It seems pretty clear that he's supposed to be played as someone who makes tactical mistakes, and that is figured into the difficulty of the encounter.
We will be doing STAP as gestalt, but for the first encounters at least I don't think I will be changing the PC's. Gestalt characters are powerful, to be sure, but at 1st level they're not that much different from regular characters and based on how difficult some of the encounters in "There is No Honor" seem to be, I think I will leave them as is and see how that goes.
Don't get me wrong, though my group loves tough adventures. We're finishing up Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and it's been an absolute killer, and so much fun!
Creative Director
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I agree that Shackled City was probably too tough. The way the adventure's written, the third encounter in the campaign could easilly be with a CR 3 monster who's not even a "boss."
Age of Worms was also rather tough, especially if the party isn't optimized for fighting against undead. A no cleric rogue/enchanter heavy party won't make it far in Age of Worms without a lot of luck, but a party made up of clerics and paladins and necromancy specialists will tear through a lot of the encounters.
As for Savage Tide, we aren't going to nerf the dificulty; the extreme popularity of the last two adventure paths indicates that the majority of our customers prefer tough adventures. But that said, a lot of the encounters in Savage Tide are indeed scripted to be easier if the PCs take advantage of not only their own strengths, but of the environment and of their gray matter, as mentioned above. Certainly, if your party's tactics never vary from "CHARGE IN AND KILL THEM ALL!" from encounter to encounter, they aren't going to make it far. Some battles will requrie tactics, and some battles are best won without even resorting to a fight and using wit and diplomacy or intimidate or other skills to solve situations.
I think the campaign'll work fine with five or even six PCs; you might want to add some more mooks or henchmen into the fights with endgame bosses just so the battles aren't anticlimacitc, but overall it should work.
As for concerns about rogues and swashbuckler type characters, never fear. They'll certainly feel at home in Savage Tide. Although there's a fair amount of undead and constructs in the first half of "There Is No Honor," as a whole the majority of the foes in Savage Tide will be susceptible to sneak attacks. At the very least, the treasure the campaign hands out will be heavilly slanted toward swashbuckling-type characters.
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from what i remember of the Isle of Dread: most of the random encounters (with the exception of the undead in the village/graveyard) were dinosaurs, fiendish critters, humanoids, or aberrations.
add in some demons (most of whom are crittable and sneak attackable) and fiendish/half-fiendish humanoids, and you're all set for some precision damage fun.
i can't wait to run my PC's through There is No Honor...looks like there's FINALLY going to be a balanced (6 member) party, with melee, ranged, utility, skills, arcane-blasty, and healing/turning. i forsee the undead under parrot island to be a MUCH less challenging event than the lotus dragon camp or the blue nixie.
of course, with one of the players espousing an "everything should be lit on fire" sort of mentality, even they might be fairly easy.
also: i made it very clear to the players that they should optimize as they saw fit. i will NOT be modifing the difficulty down (will probably be adding some mooks, possibly using the "ECL+1" suggestions for scaling the adventures
i can't wait to get them with the lotus dragon ambushes...fun fun fun.
-the hamster
Bugbear Zombies?
I do not know how you folks playtest the adventures (or if you do at all) but at least for groups I have played with the level and group size suggestions are almost always too low. Different gaming philosophy or something? Groups I have seen (and been in) rarely make an efficient well-oiled killing machine, different goals inside party are common as is occasional conflict and rare is the character that has been minmaxed.
I was wondering...besides templating the blokes, or upping numbers, is there any way to replace zombies with a CR2 undead?
It's like you go from ghoul(cr1) to ghast(cr3) with nothing in between.
You could use 1st or 2nd level (monster class from LM) ghouls? Or adjust the hitpoints of some plain old CR1 or CR2 undead to be weaker/harder?
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I do not know how you folks playtest the adventures (or if you do at all) but at least for groups I have played with the level and group size suggestions are almost always too low.
I have found the exact opposite - a good amount of the encounters in age of worms were cake walks for my party who all started @ lvl 1 with no fighter, and a cleric who wanted to be a fighter and ended up the first KOed in major battles.
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You could use 1st or 2nd level (monster class from LM) ghouls? Or adjust the hitpoints of some plain old CR1 or CR2 undead to be weaker/harder?I was wondering...besides templating the blokes, or upping numbers, is there any way to replace zombies with a CR2 undead?
It's like you go from ghoul(cr1) to ghast(cr3) with nothing in between.
Eureka! I'm where I want to be.
The zombies(or ghouls) all have animal heads; they were pirates that escaped from Dr. Moreaus' Greyhawk equivalents' island. Narf!!!And...there's a map...sidetrek anyone?
That's why I like it here. I can bounce the idea ball real good.
One thing I've noticed whenever the discussion of difficulty of a given adventure comes up is the wide disparity in opinions they normally generate. Some folks state that they are too hard, deathtraps for an 'average' party, and the like; while others proclaim them unchallenging, or 'cakewalks'.
A lot of that has to do with the players at the table, and more-so on the DM running the adventure. Some playing groups naturally work well together, optimize their characters to be part of a 'well-oiled' team, and generally, play the game to win. Others favor characters built around a particular roleplaying concept over combat optimization, and don't particularly like thinking tactically in combat. Most groups I've found are a mix of the two, with one or two players on either side of the fence, and a couple more taking the middle ground.
The problem becomes when you put a 'hard core' DM at an underoptimized table. I play more D&D than my players, thanks to Living Greyhawk, and, also thanks to Living Greyhawk and its average ELs of party level +3, I've also had to learn tactics in order to survive. When I DM, this translates into encounters where the opponents use tactics equal to or better than the party's own. My players have been forced to use better tactics themselves, and as a result, the fatality rate has dropped in my games.
Likewise, a tactically inexperienced DM, running a table of tactically-minded players, often fails to present the encounters as much of a challenge.
Granted, some opponents, such as those with mindless undead or low-intelligence barbarian types, shouldn't be played 'smart'. These encounters are often challenging enough due to other factors (low-level, high-strength, two-handed weapon wielding, raging barbarians are often capable of dropping 1st level characters with minimum damage rolls).
Don't know what the point to all of this is, other than the thread got me thinking about the topic. I guess, the moral is, if you, as a player, think the adventure is too hard, maybe the problem is your party's tactics. Are your tanks running out of range of the healers? Do your arcane casters charge up to deliver a burning hands or color spray and then get cut down by the 5 angry orcs in front of them?
Likewise, if you, as the DM, think the encounter is too easy, try to look objectively at whether or not you're too easy on your players. Do you forego attacks on squishy characters in range in order to swing at a heavily armored fighter? Do your humanoid npcs work as a team, using flanking and aid another to their advantage, and readying actions to attack spellcasters who start casting, etc?
The encounters in the adventure paths are definitely challenging encounters. Just look at the amount of player deaths in Eric Mona's Greyhawk/Age of Worms campaign. These guys are professional game designers, editors, and writers, yet there are still character deaths. If you prefer a more cinematic campaign, where the good guys always win, and no one dies, then I would suggest scaling back the encounters some. However, if your players see character deaths as a way to try out a new character option, and generally enjoy those edge of the seat fights, where a TPK is just a couple bad rolls away, then I'd say the AP is fine as written.
I'm planning on running the adventure for three people who are pretty new to D&D. I figure that, while they should be able to handle any puzzles and whatnot just fine, I'll definitely have to tone down some of the encounters.
Eliminating some of the numerous minions should not only make the encounters easier, but my job as a DM easier as well! :)
TPK -- twice. There is NO WAY through the sea tunnels under Parrot Island for non-aquatic races: DC 15 Swim (at -1/round for being underwater) for at least 5 rounds (70 ft, of tunnels at 15 ft./rd for Spd 30 characters). Characters with 15 Str and max cross-class ranks in swim have a 1% chance of making it, if I calculate correctly (remember, if you fail by >5 you immediately start to drown). I finally had to stop, take a deep breath, and declare that the Darfellan could tow the others (one at a time) on a rope. Good thing the Darfellan player hadn't opted for a half-orc, or they'd all be dead again!
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Creative Director
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TPK -- twice. There is NO WAY through the sea tunnels under Parrot Island for non-aquatic races: DC 15 Swim (at -1/round for being underwater) for at least 5 rounds (70 ft, of tunnels at 15 ft./rd for Spd 30 characters). Characters with 15 Str and max cross-class ranks in swim have a 1% chance of making it, if I calculate correctly (remember, if you fail by >5 you immediately start to drown). I finally had to stop, take a deep breath, and declare that the Darfellan could tow the others (one at a time) on a rope. Good thing the Darfellan player hadn't opted for a half-orc, or they'd all be dead again!
Which is why, earlier in the adventure, characters who loot Soller Vark get some elixirs of swimming. Remember, only one PC has to make it out; he can then circle around to the boulders atop the trap door, roll them off, and everyone can get out that way.
But frankly, the underwater passageway isn't the intended method of escaping for most parties. The intended escape is to use the earth elemental stone from the treasury to remove the boulders from atop the trap door exit.
And honestly, allowing the darfellan to tow the other PCs out on a rope is a perfectly acceptable solution to the problem; it gives a specific PC the chance to be a hero. Bending the rules in cases like this isn't bad for the game, it IS the game.
Mr. Jacobs,
I love it! Many thanks for the throughtful (and quick!) reply, and please forgive me my rant. Excellent--the solutions you suggest remind me of "ZORK" (which, as I'm sure you recall, was all problem-solving and no action). This crop of characters will have to either get over their repugnace to loot the dead, or else kick their brains into high gear for the rest of the path.
So--I take back my negative comments, wholeheartedly. And I would like to go on the record by publicly acknowledging your mastery--when it comes to adventures, I believe you may have an edge even on Lawrence Schick and Bruce Cordell (my previous idols). Most heartfelt thanks for this adventure path (the Lotus Dragon HQ invasion was probably the most exciting low-level scenario I've run in a couple of decades), and most of all for bringing me back to the magic of D&D like it was when you and I were starting to play (at the same point in time, if not in space). Cheers!
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Wow... thanks for the compliments, Erik!
I certainly didn't think of your comment as a rant; they were totally justified. I just wanted to point out that there was more than one way to escape the tunnels, and that the best way to play the game is to adapt the game to your players, which you did.
Some of the themes that appeared in "There Is No Honor" will continue throughout Savage Tide; there will usually be at least one encounter in each adventure that simply can't be solved by the typical "run in and hack" plan. Hopefully, the encoutners in the first adventure will serve to get the PCs thinking of diplomatic or tactical solutions... by the time we get to the end of Savage Tide, there's gonna be some pretty rough opposition! :)
Can't wait... and thanks again. I'll get off of this post now, in deference to players who actually figured out the other escape routes (whacks self in head)... Erik out.
TPK -- twice. There is NO WAY through the sea tunnels under Parrot Island for non-aquatic races: DC 15 Swim (at -1/round for being underwater) for at least 5 rounds (70 ft, of tunnels at 15 ft./rd for Spd 30 characters). Characters with 15 Str and max cross-class ranks in swim have a 1% chance of making it, if I calculate correctly (remember, if you fail by >5 you immediately start to drown). I finally had to stop, take a deep breath, and declare that the Darfellan could tow the others (one at a time) on a rope. Good thing the Darfellan player hadn't opted for a half-orc, or they'd all be dead again!
I think you are misintepreting the rules a little. The DC 15 check would allow your PCs to move at 15 feet per round, or 30 feet if they take a full round action. So, they could clear the tunnel in as few as 3 checks. This does not get a -1 per round modifier. It is always 15.
However, the swim check has nothing to do with holding thier breath. They can hold thier breath for Conx2 rounds. A full round swim action takes 2 rounds, not one, off of this duration.
Once that duration runs out, the PC has to make a DC 10 con check, which takes the -1 modifier per round. If they fail that, then they start to drown, and, at that point, you move to the drowing rules in the DMG.
Right on about the drowning, but not the speed, I think (not that it matters now; the gaming is done!):
"Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress through the water. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.
If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath..."
Good catch, though, and thanks for the reply. Where are the rules lawyers when you need them during play? Anyway, people I game with are more likely to demand a random table to roll for Rowyn's bust size (sigh).