Do most of the DMs out there require their players to actually carry the food they need an keep track of food water consumption - and the encumburance it uses.
Or do most just go with, " hey they have a couple of days on their sheet thats fine" kind of philosophy.
Or do you allow the, "Hey your in the woods you bag a deer," kind of thing.
I was just thinking about the logistics of an adventurer - and while I wouldn't call myself a cheater - I don't think I have ever been called out on food or water in a game in years.
I mean gathering food for a party while on the move - it expedites the game but really makes adventuring a lot easier than it would be - even following the rules much less really traveling for months with everything you need in your pack.
What about things like soap, candles, torches, spare clothes, pots and pans or is everything in your games sort of detail light - tents go up and comedown somehow - and don't mildew or rip, the weather rarely intrudes, and you never seem to quite be out of chow?
Curious
I usually tell my players to account for a full compliment of dried rations (say, a week's worth) in their encumberance. I don't bother with water if they are just roaming the countryside looking for adventure. I put this in the same category as taking a dump in the woods or cleaning weapons and armor after a battle. It's just something that THE CHARACTERS do on their own.
But... In situations where the characters become stranded or lost, then I make the players accountable for every piece of food and every once of water they carry.
Ultradan
Great response Ultradan - Very army, "Situation Dictates" when it matters you track it when it doesn't you don't - thanks for sharing!
I figure that we have quite enough things to keep track of during a game. Specially us DMs.
More ways to save time...
I will sometimes skip months ahead in the story (the characters aren't always on missions) and tell the players to drop some coin to cover the cost of living during those months. The amount dropped will depend on their individual wealth at the start of the interlude and, possibly, a wisdom check if they want to try and save. I figure the more wealth someone has, the more he'll be apt to spend. I made a small chart for the cost of upkeeping and I'll post it as soon as I get home from work.
I have quite a few of these little tables to speed up things, like a 'foraging/hunting' table, many encounter tables, a weather table (although I converted this one in Excel to speed things up - It gives me a full year's worth of weather in one click)...
(I tend to accumulate thing over the years and keep them close-by for quick reference. All hail the computer!!)
Ultradan
I only make them keep track of stuff when it matters, just like Ultradan. Armor maintenance, equipment maintenance, weapon maintenance is all assumed as part of "down time." If the characters ever go days without any "down time" then I might make them check for stuff wearing out or getting ruined, but otherwise it's part of the game's mundane background that you can just gloss over as long as the players know that they need to account for it.
Like everyone else says, it depends:) One game, I deliberately emphasized the survivalist angle. Made thier checks to forage, but they had to "hunt" the animals they wanted to eat. It was cool for a game or so, then it got old, so I stopped. But it kept the players mindful of these things, so they would roll thier checks and alot the proper spell slots (create water, etc) without me saying anything.
I'm in the "stock up on a week's worth of rations" camp. However, when there is a PC with Survival, they often will go on hunting/gathering forays for extra goodies. I've also had players cook and eat their kills...usually animal kills, but some of the monstrous races I've had in the group have eaten fallen foes.
I once ran a game set in a desert wasteland where food and water was scarce. The party started out with a few pack donkeys, but ended up killing and eating them when their rations ran out and then the nearly starved to death until they ran into a band of marauding kobolds. Like the barbarian in the group said...kobold tastes just like chicken...
Mount Care another good one - do most people bother - especially exotics (meat eaters) how do you keep them fed, safe, while in dungeon, fleeing from undead, etc?
I pretty much agree with what has been said. When gaming, I like to keep to the action/drama/intrigue/whatever as much as possible with a few acceptions. For example, if I ever ran a Dark Sun game, I would probably make people keep track of their water and food, but then again that IS part of the adventure in Dark Sun. So I guess what I am saying is, I wouldn't keep track of such things unless I felt it was adding to the story or if the players were enjoying the extra detail.
I tend to see rations as a quality of life thing. If they mention that they have iron rations with them, then come what may, they'll at least have the energy to tackle what they're up against. Granted I may make it clear to them how homesick they're getting for something warm and meaty to eat.
If they pack along meat and cheese and wine then they have full rights to be partying on the road. The campfire can crackle and they can play musical instruments and enjoy mutton skewers with bread and cheese and drink wine.
If they pack neither and I decide that they get all lean and hungry because the foraging stinks, or if it starts to snow and they get stranded, then that's my freedom as DM. Packing food and drink is like starvation insurance.
Generally I don't roleplay through the daily grind too much, but I like the realism that necessities like that add to a game.
Yeah. No need to simulate every last breadcrumb and drop of water. I only spend time on this stuff when survival is part of the challenge. Like when they were planning on a long journey across the desert, they had to gather info on how long it would take plan carefully how much food, water, and fodder to bring along, how many pack animals of what type, etc. Normally, though, I just assume that PCs are packing a couple of days worth of rations and a full skin of water whenever they go out of town or into a dungeon, if it becomes an issue.
Interested to see Ultradan's "maintenance tables." I usually just dock what seems like a reasonable amount whenever there's a period of down time.
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We all seem to agree here... I usually make my players account for what they are carrying, and, for most people, that includes 10 days worth of iron rations and three waterskins. Some of my players will, like Grimcleaver, buy wine and fresh food; this is a "fluff" rather than "crunch" benefit, as they like to point out to the others how much better thay eat. However, I just can't be bothered to keep track of food consumption and that kind of bookkeeping, unless they are in a desert or some other wildly unfriendly environment. Thus, the packlist usually only becomes interesting when a PC announces that he'll use his item X to perform action Y - if item X isn't in his pack, he's screwed.
Animal fodder is handled the same way - it only becomes an issue when the PCs' hippogriffs eat some farmer's herd of sheep, which of course only happens when I feel like stirring the pot...
I make my players carry food and water, but I don't make them sit and take the time to eat. We assume they do that as they walk and make the proper adjustments to their sheets at the end of the day. As for equipment and mount maintenence, I don't make them keep track of that unless it's a long journey or things are actually taking damage. I assume the horses and such graze, find water, and grooming is done when camp is set, blah blah blah. I think that about sums it up.
My group tends to run the safe camp scenario as much as possible. If in a dungeon they fallback to a relatively safe area for storage of certain items in a secure area. Id hate to see water bottles and wine skins break. You ever carry 10 days of water. Its rather awkward. This also allows for an area where they can manage spells and rest and store treasures they have picked up.
Right now Im stuggling with things like banks, familiars, long term residential etc. Even the one character with a bag of holding I think is getting a little full. But for the immediate adventure, I tend to work on a fallback location that is relatively secure. Once a day roll for the wandering monster to see if it came by while they were out. Creates an interesting twist to the plot when they come back to find out goldy locks has been around ....
I try to focus on it to some extent at the lower levels. When no one has enough money for a horse or anything, the carrying of such essentials can be an issue (I typically forget to make it one, but I think I should). Once they get mounts, pack animals, and maybe a wagon, it just becomes a matter of dropping a few coins here and there before heading into the wilderness. They typically estimate their travel time to and from someplace, try and gauge how long they will be there, and pack accordingly. Once they've done that, I note how many days of rations they've got (they almost never actually buy any food above trail rations), and just mark off how many days they've been out. If they get socked in by a storm and can't move for a long time, they may start encountering trouble. If anyone in the party has Survival, though, we usually just relegate it to a check and say he found some herbs, shrooms, animals, whatever.
I assume mounts graze when they can and are fed while in the stables and are therefore in good condition.
As far as stopping to eat, one should rarely, if ever, play that, as it's assumed in the travel times. A party only goes for 8 hours a day, unless they want a forced march. The rest of the daylit hours are spent setting up and taking down camp, in addition to stopping and eating and/or foraging.
You bring up an interesting point about banking. One method is for the party to get a "stronghold" of some type, whether it be their own inn or cottage, or an actual castle, and put the money there. Security shouldn't really be an issue; I've thought of making a "security check" for wherever the party stashes their loot, with modifiers for things ranging from a space under a loose floorboard to a dwarven bank vault, warded by clerical spells and gnomish constructs. Typically, the intervals and likelyhoods of the cash being stolen comes up too frequently. If you want to reinforce the realism of having the party actually put their money somewhere for safekeeping, why then punish them by making it likely to be stolen? No, robberies and hiests of PC funds should only be done when the story could benefit from it, not as part of a random check, IMO.
That said, I do like it when the party puts their money somewhere. In my homebrew, the dwarves and gnomes are the people that everyone with the means to do so goes to. Their vaults are the safest and largest in the world. However, churches and temples also often have an option for storing money, and you can place it with local lords, too. They will then write letters of credit and handle the shipping of the money for the party. It might sound too modern to some, or too far outside the realm of most adventuring, but it really isn't that new of a concept, and it takes surprisingly little time. In the experience I've had with it thus far, the party actually had fun looking around town and decideding who to leave their money with; the church of Pelor, or the noble a mile outside of town? Hmmm....
Interest and such is a non-factor. The "bank" takes a very small percentage of the money and holds the remaining funds in status for the party. I've no idea if things like interest actually existed in Medieval times, but that IS too far from adventuring and classic D&D for my tastes, so I don't even go there.
If you want to reinforce the realism of having the party actually put their money somewhere for safekeeping, why then punish them by making it...
Saern, letters of credit and bankers with branches in different cities (and means to remit coin from one to the other) do indeed date date to the high and late middle ages (ca. 11th century in China, maybe 12th-13th century in Europe). So unless you're running a "dark ages" type world, there's no reason you shouldn't have some simple banking facilities in major cities. Not likely in smaller towns or villages though. IMC, most of the main trade routes are monopolized by guilds or cartels that issue their own letters of credit. The guild will issue letters for a small fee (maybe 5% of the amount) that can be redeemed anywhere that guild has a branch, freeing PCs from the need to haul large bags of gold around. PCs with a base in such a city can also probably find a userer who will pay them a low interest rate for their money (maybe 5% per year) and lend that money out at high rates to those in need of credit. This is a somewhat risky proposition, though, as some userers lend out most of their money and keep insufficient reserves. If something happens to keep them from collecting interest on the loans, and everyone knows about it, there's a run on the bank, and whoever gets there last doesn't get their money back. (No FDIC to bail out the userers!) This could be a good adventure hook. (I can't pay you the money I owe you unless you can recover the stolen relic that makes the rains fall regularly, otherwise the farmers will have no harvest and their lords won't be able to pay back the money I loaned them.)
That said, by the time players become wealthy enough to need banks or vaults, they can usually buy bags of holding and portable holes, obviating the need. And maybe the existance of such magical means alters the historical patterns of banking . . .
Anyhow, one can always convert gold to platinum or diamonds to cut down on travel weight.
I,m in the ultradan camp on this one. Unless the game is focusing on survival, then I see know need to force tracking rations. Mainly because it is not practical to manage the encumbrance and rations for 8 Pcs. I find it difficult to get everyone to track ammunition, much less rations. From time to time I will challenge a player on the amount of equipment they carry. On a long journey I had the party higher animal handlers and pack animals. The animal handlers became interesting Npcs that died in the flames of a red dragon's breath.
As a player I track all this stuff. Call it wierd, call it creepy, I enjoy tracking encumbrance and rations and all the little detail. I have been known to track ALL my spell components, for casters. I could tell you how much bat guano my wizard is carrying
If you want to reinforce the realism of having the party actually put their money somewhere for safekeeping, why then punish them by making it...Saern, letters of credit and bankers with branches in different cities (and means to remit coin from one to the other) do indeed date date to the high and late middle ages (ca. 11th century in China, maybe 12th-13th century in Europe). So unless you're running a "dark ages" type world, there's no reason you shouldn't have some simple banking facilities in major cities. Not likely in smaller towns or villages though. IMC, most of the main trade routes are monopolized by guilds or cartels that issue their own letters of credit. The guild will issue letters for a small fee (maybe 5% of the amount) that can be redeemed anywhere that guild has a branch, freeing PCs from the need to haul large bags of gold around. PCs with a base in such a city can also probably find a userer who will pay them a low interest rate for their money (maybe 5% per year) and lend that money out at high rates to those in need of credit. This is a somewhat risky proposition, though, as some userers lend out most of their money and keep insufficient reserves. If something happens to keep them from collecting interest on the loans, and everyone knows about it, there's a run on the bank, and whoever gets there last doesn't get their money back. (No FDIC to bail out the userers!) This could be a good adventure hook. (I can't pay you the money I owe you unless you can recover the stolen relic that makes the rains fall regularly, otherwise the farmers will have no harvest and their lords won't be able to pay back the money I loaned them.)
That said, by the time players become wealthy enough to need banks or vaults, they can usually buy bags of holding and portable holes, obviating the need. And maybe the existance of such magical means alters the historical patterns of banking . . .
Anyhow, one can always convert gold to platinum or diamonds to cut down on...
Yes, I'm well aware of this, but I was seeking to cut down on replies of "That's not right!" Then again, if I had made a post like yours, it would have solved it right then.
Anyway, as I said, I don't go into the interest aspect of banking IMC.
My reasoning is that local lords often offer space in their vaults, and have the forces under their command (and maybe even of a whole nation, depending on circumstances) that can be brought to bear if something happens to your money. However, you then are subject to political factors, such as the areas where the letters of credit from the lords are good or not.
Temples often span across political boundaries, but again, certain people won't want letters of credit from the church of Heironeous, and the church may not transfer the money if they think it will go to something counter to their ethos and beliefs.
The dwarven banks are typically apolitical and don't have qualms about what you use the money for, or who you use it with, and their security is the best, but their rates are also the highest.
The problem I find with gems is that they are even easier to steal since they don't take so much space and weigh so little. Then there's a problem of, "Oh, all I have are these rubies. Does anyone have change for a ruby? I need to break this ruby into 49 gold and 7 silver."
We all seem to agree here... I usually make my players account for what they are carrying, and, for most people, that includes 10 days worth of iron rations and three waterskins. Some of my players will, like Grimcleaver, buy wine and fresh food; this is a "fluff" rather than "crunch" benefit, as they like to point out to the others how much better thay eat. However, I just can't be bothered to keep track of food consumption and that kind of bookkeeping, unless they are in a desert or some other wildly unfriendly environment. Thus, the packlist usually only becomes interesting when a PC announces that he'll use his item X to perform action Y - if item X isn't in his pack, he's screwed.
Animal fodder is handled the same way - it only becomes an issue when the PCs' hippogriffs eat some farmer's herd of sheep, which of course only happens when I feel like stirring the pot...
Thats a lot of encumberance food is heavy and bulky - even MREs which is a lot more compact than iron rations - I wouldn't want to pack 10 days - plus, water, torches etc.
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Thats a lot of encumberance food is heavy and bulky - even MREs which is a lot more compact than iron rations - I wouldn't want to pack 10 days - plus, water, torches etc.We all seem to agree here... I usually make my players account for what they are carrying, and, for most people, that includes 10 days worth of iron rations and three waterskins. Some of my players will, like Grimcleaver, buy wine and fresh food; this is a "fluff" rather than "crunch" benefit, as they like to point out to the others how much better thay eat. However, I just can't be bothered to keep track of food consumption and that kind of bookkeeping, unless they are in a desert or some other wildly unfriendly environment. Thus, the packlist usually only becomes interesting when a PC announces that he'll use his item X to perform action Y - if item X isn't in his pack, he's screwed.
Animal fodder is handled the same way - it only becomes an issue when the PCs' hippogriffs eat some farmer's herd of sheep, which of course only happens when I feel like stirring the pot...
That's why my PCs favour bringing along a good ole pack animal to cart all their crap around. Most of us are old army hands, anyway, which explains our collective fondness for portable holes (best magic item EVER) and bags of holding - more room for all those semi-useful trinkets we carry around. We also usually have one of the Clerics memorise create food and water.
Also, I agree with Heathansson on the MRE point - no living organism can sustain itself on MREs for 10 days, nor would it willingly drag around 10 days' worth of them. Yech!
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Also, I agree with Heathansson on the MRE point - no living organism can sustain itself on MREs for 10 days, nor would it willingly drag around 10 days' worth of them. Yech!
Never had C Rations, eh? The first-generation MREs were at least 10 times as edible as C rats, and by all accounts Cs were better than Ks, which were better than British rations. Geez, the kids these days ....
On the weight thing, though, MREs aren't really all that light. Jerky, pemmican, nuts, and dried fruit are quite light for their nutritional value. Water is the real problem, but that's obtainable in most places, especially with purify.
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in the current party, out of 6 PC's, there are 3 with Rings of Sustenance (Bone Knight, Necromancer/Soulcaster, and Wizard/Cataclysm Mage), leaving the Knight/Cleric, Bard, and Divine Mind to carry rations.
BUT, since we are so military minded, we regularly pool our monies (or more typically i will "go shopping" as the party's commander), purchase things like rations, water, ammunition, and pack animals. the cost is then distributed...i don't think it's even been more than 40-50 gp (and that was for our latest expedition into the jungles of Xen'drik)
with a ranger/druid in the party, this is all but useless anywhere you can forage (DC 10 survival to feed yourself, plus another "person" for each 2 higher than that.) with a DC 20 check, that's 6 people right there.
with all the synergies with survival for being a mid-high lvl druid, that's EASILY achievable by 5th or 6th lvl.
all that being said, if there's no druid or ranger (or scout) nearby to assist with survival, or the party is in an inhospitable locale (deep desert, underground, on the Abyss), you better believe it i'll take a tally of the total "people-days" of food available, and keep a running count.
but, as everyone has stated above: unless it seems like an important environmental hazard (or makes for good plot points) i will typically just hand-wave it away.
-the hamster
I used to when my players were low level and food was not readily available; at the current level where most are very near epic; i dont bog the game down with it cause they can always make it; teleport to it; and they pack a large larder in a bag of holding so we no longer worry about it; at lower levels it can add something to the game if the pcs are crossing a desert or jungle were food and clean drinking water is not readily avialble. it can be interesting to have food spoil and go rotten or get dried out and unusable; but usually this is only a minor incovienence; I havent bothered with it since the pcs were about 10th level or so.
I guess I'm a mean DM because I generally DO make the players keep track of food (& less vigorously water). Everyone must carry from 3-7 days of rations and we do keep track of the weight involved. When it comes time for someone to carry their unconscious friend (something that happens often at low levels), we check if they are able to lift the proper amount - body weight plus possessions. We scratch off the rations on a tally sheet and/or keep track of additions from a successful foraging excursion. Everyone needs to have available food & water at night during camptime. If weather demands it, they also need to account for shelter. Failure to do so results in lack of natural healing and possibly (in extreme cases of several consecutive days of deprivation)fatigue /dehydration /malnutrition.
There are times we "gloss it over" but in a specific way. We play 2nd edition and have a kinda unusual way of handling skills - they are all run with percentages. A character starts off with 20% in a chosen skill (say foraging, for example) and each time the PC uses that skill they gain one percentage point, whether the skill check is actually successful or not. So the next time the character tries to forage, he now has a 21% chance to succeed. I also award xps for skill checks. Thus, availability of food & water can be important. The way we usually run the scenario is thusly: if players want to ignore the camp routine then we assume shelters were built, rations were consumed, fires started, etc. but no one gets any xps for these actions and no one's skill percentages increase. However, if a player is interested in improving his skills (and gaining a few paltry xps) then we role-play the nightly routine. If someone has the cooking skill we can roleplay that or if not, everyone is eating their rations cold. Hunting and foraging sorties have turned into little side-treks on occassion. Players who get lost (which happens surprisingly often at low levels) really keep track of their rations. It actually can be lots of fun. I also keep track of daily weather conditions and that can really affect survival as well. I only get as detailed as the players want. Sometimes they choose to spend half a session on the "daily grind", especially after a complex dungeon incursion, and other times they want to skip it and cut to the combat highlights. My group definitely falls on the side of detailed realism though and we all like it that way.
Example - in Age of Worms (spoiler alert) in Three Faces of Evil, after killing the dire boar in Hextor's Citadel, the ranger wanted to take a stab (pun intended!) at skinning the animal. He failed his check (but he'll have a slightly better chance next time) and moved on to butchery. He was successful in his butchery prowess and carved out some nice pork chops (of which the player really *hammed* it up - sorry the puns are just coming to me!) and proudly dispensed them to his cohorts. Trouble was, they had neither the opportunity nor the means to cook the meat at that particular moment. The other PCs were like "what? Do you want us to eat this raw? No way!" and threw down their slabs of meat in disgust. The player of the ranger had his character act offended and he later refused to forage for the hungry group after leaving the dungeon. Maybe you had to be there, but it was really funny and the players still mention the moment from time to time.