I was never a huge fan of this adventure, but I happen to own both versions (for the record, I actually like the 3.5e version better than the original 2e version). Tonight, after reading #138, I went back and looked over the #37 version to see what the differences were (besides the obvious updates to 3.5e rules). I was wondering if the editors could speak to the process of updating the adventure.
I was never a huge fan of this adventure
Heresy. Lynchings are schedualed for Thursday at 5:00. Bring your own pitchfork.
I was never a huge fan of this adventureHeresy. Lynchings are schedualed for Thursday at 5:00. Bring your own pitchfork.
My torch is lit. Gather the angry rabble.
I would have to go with the original poster here... I never played/read the original and was excited to hear of a return of a favorite of so many peoples... but was disappointed to see something that was just a dungeon crawl.
As I read it though I though what an exciting adventure it could be getting to the point where this one starts. Secret cults protecting ancient secrets of the location as well as hints to passwords or the various puzzles within. Just finding each of the cults could get interesting... alas, there was some very good puzzles and traps in an elaborate dungeon... but not much else.
All that said, I would be very interested to hear what the differences between this and the original were as well.
Sean Mahoney
Just bumping this thread...
As I read it though I though what an exciting adventure it could be getting to the point where this one starts. Secret cults protecting ancient secrets of the location as well as hints to passwords or the various puzzles within.
Sean Mahoney
Yeah I thought the same things when I read it. It seems perfectly suited to being interjected into the STAP/SCAP campaigns.
Well I have now read this adventure. I liked the adventure but I have very significant concerns. Basically I can't see any reason why the party will not simply take 20 on a search check of each and every room in which there is not something immediately pressing. In the vast majority of cases the PCs should have no trouble taking 20 either before or after the combat in question. At which point the players get to be wowed by the intracrecies of all these traps but of course don't fall victim to any of them and never feel endangered.
In essence I have to think that what made The Mud Sorcerers Tomb brilliant in an earlier version of the game simply does not carry over to the current version. Static trap filled rooms filled with cryptic clues don't play well in 3.5.
I'd be interested in knowing how it went for anyone who runs their PCs through this adventure to see if my concerns play out in the actual game.
To point something that a lot of DMs/GMs and players alike often forget, in order to locate any trap with a DC higher than 20 and any magic trap, you actually need a player character with the trapfinding ability. Having a good Search skill modifier is not enough.
If you wish to discourage the notion of the party taking 20 on Search checks in every room, toss in a few random encounters with creatures that will pose much a threat in the sense that a player character could conceivably perish but rather to deplete their resources. Secondly, track the amount of time they spent searching. Taking 20 effectively means they are spending 2 minutes per 5 foot square. In case you missed it, the scale on the map is 10 ft. squares. Don't forget the walls and ceilings. If they are spending days in the tomb, check their food and water supplies. If they don't have access to magic that creates food and water, they are hosed, sooner or later, as they starve. Drinkable water is the most important one. Most folks can only survive 24-48 hours without water.
Those are my suggestions. On a different note, the adventure module Labyrinth of Madness was a real mindbender with its crazy traps and puzzles. If one were to convert it to 3.5, it really boils down to both the ability of the party to find traps and clues and the ability to think and solve problems, both creatively and logically. That not something easy to accomplish. If you can complete Labyrinth of Madness, give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back. It is a hard, hard module.
Cheers.
CB Oout.
I went through the original as a player. I remember that very early on in the adventure, it degenerated into "search for keyholes, then start smashing the furniture to uncover the clues." Our poor DM called the session short so that he could sit down and revise the puzzles to make them more interesting. After reading the update...nothing's changed in that regard.
Somehow I think that 14th level PCs shouldn't have too much trouble coming up with food and water (its only a 3rd level cleric spell)
To point something that a lot of DMs/GMs and players alike often forget, in order to locate any trap with a DC higher than 20 and any magic trap, you actually need a player character with the trapfinding ability. Having a good Search skill modifier is not enough.
If you wish to discourage the notion of the party taking 20 on Search checks in every room, toss in a few random encounters with creatures that will pose much a threat in the sense that a player character could conceivably perish but rather to deplete their resources. Secondly, track the amount of time they spent searching. Taking 20 effectively means they are spending 2 minutes per 5 foot square. In case you missed it, the scale on the map is 10 ft. squares. Don't forget the walls and ceilings. If they are spending days in the tomb, check their food and water supplies. If they don't have access to magic that creates food and water, they are hosed, sooner or later, as they starve. Drinkable water is the most important one. Most folks can only survive 24-48 hours without water.
Those are my suggestions. On a different note, the adventure module Labyrinth of Madness was a real mindbender with its crazy traps and puzzles. If one were to convert it to 3.5, it really boils down to both the ability of the party to find traps and clues and the ability to think and solve problems, both creatively and logically. That not something easy to accomplish. If you can complete Labyrinth of Madness, give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back. It is a hard, hard module.
Cheers.
CB Oout.
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That not something easy to accomplish. If you can complete Labyrinth of Madness, give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back. It is a hard, hard module.
Now there is something I would like to see, if I recall correctly, the Labyrinth of Madness was a very hard module that nearly fried my already screwed up mind. I would love to see it in a 3.5 version. Kinda on the subject, has anyone tried any of those "classic adventures" that I see advertised? If so could I get some feed back on them?
I just finished reading through it. Some devious traps/situations in that one. Love it and will schedule in my next campaign with a slightly different purpose (tomb of the one and only original Gith goddess).
However I didnt strike me as being as good as the Maure Castle series IMO. My players loved to hate that one. However need to reserve judegment until we actually play it.
What poll was Erik talking about that voted this adventure the best ever dragon adventure?
I played this module back in the early days of 1st Ed where dungeon romps were much more popular. D&D has evolved since then and is much more sophisticated. My players generally enjoy a dungeon here or there but more like adventures set in cities, with intrigueing politics and the like, at least at mid-high lvl. I try my best to mix up the adventures. A dungeon romp here, a city under siege there, a ghost story there, etc.
We've actually run more then a fair share of dungeons lately. I ran them through a converted Tomb of Horrors, part of a module series, the tomb became the home of a lich king. Right now they are going through an ancient elven city of the dead, much of it taking place in underground temples and the interior of a mayan-like pyramid. At least I'm getting a bit tired of dungeon romps, I think they are to.
It seams Dungeon Magazine contains an awefull lot of them. Not that I dont love just about every adventure I read in the magazine (and the magazine itself is great,) but I like a lot of variety, keeps my players on their toes.
I may run them through the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb sometime, but not likely soon.
My gripe with the new one was the unwritten "bring a lot of 2-handed power attack grunts with adamantine weapons to guard your main rogue, or TPK on every encounter on the lower level occurs." Did anyone else find the 3.5E Tzolo's Guardian way too much for any party that wasted a character on anything else? Wiz/Sor: useless; SR too high. All warrior-types: useless, no adamantine weapons. They can't even flee, because the thing follows them.
I have no gripe with a straight dungeon crawl; I grew up with the 1st ed. But, realistically, the 3.5-E version only works if you have multiple waves of invaders that can somehow pass on what they learn to the next group before they get knocked off (and in that case I could see it being VERY cool).
My gripe with the new one was the unwritten "bring a lot of 2-handed power attack grunts with adamantine weapons to guard your main rogue, or TPK on every encounter on the lower level occurs." Did anyone else find the 3.5E Tzolo's Guardian way too much for any party that wasted a character on anything else? Wiz/Sor: useless; SR too high. All warrior-types: useless, no adamantine weapons. They can't even flee, because the thing follows them.
I have no gripe with a straight dungeon crawl; I grew up with the 1st ed. But, realistically, the 3.5-E version only works if you have multiple waves of invaders that can somehow pass on what they learn to the next group before they get knocked off (and in that case I could see it being VERY cool).
I have to disagree with that, you don't even need to fight Tzolo's Guardian in the first place. If your going for that one last tomb with the big angry elephant thing standing on the lid and glaring balefully at you, after the rest of the place that you went through, without thinking and planning ahead, then you deserve what's coming to you since you can completely go around it and still survive the adventure.
I did most of the work for the rewrite/update of this adventure. It was a long time ago, but my philosophy going it was to stick as closely as possible to the original. The idea was to make it an update, not a revision.
So, pretty much everything in there is taken directly from the original. The only things that really changed were the mechanics. In that case, I tried to present approximately the same difficulty using the 3.5 rules as the origional author did using the older rule set. In some cases that meant I had to change what the monster was (although I tried to preserve the look/theme of the monster as much as possible) or how a trap worked.
The result is absolutely a grueling dungeon crawl. That being said, it was never really my goal to make the adventure any more than it was, but rather to simply allow people who hadn't seen it to play it in 3.5, and to allow people who remembered it favorably in its original incarnation to play it again with the current version of the rules.