So while taking some advice on here as well as talking with the players here they are again please keep up the thoughts and ideas
I changed the fumble chart take a look at it
House Rules
Hit Points
Characters start first level with max hit points any time a character rolls new hit points and they don’t want their roll they can take half of the max dice roll instead.
Character Traits
All character will select a two trait (one Campaign and one other) from the Pathfinder Character Traits List during character creation
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Maximum Starting Gold
All characters begin play with the maximum possible gold for their 1st level class rather than rolling for it.
Drawing an Item
Any character who can draw a weapon as a part of a move can draw anything reasonable (a wand, potion, etc.) as a part of move. This is also true for the feat quick draw
Healing
When a character uses a healing effect and does not like the roll of the dice they may ask the DM to roll for them you have to take the DMs result.
Exploding Critical Hits
Whenever you threaten a critical hit if your confirmation roll is another critical hit (and confirms the critical) then increase the critical multiplier by one.
Critical Fumbles
If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll and fails to confirm the character will consult their confirmation roll to this chart.
20-18 No effect
17-15 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round
14-7 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity unless the character makes an acrobatics check with a DC equal to the lowest CMD of characters threatening him
6-2 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC.
1 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC while falling prone and throwing his weapon (1d4 times 5 feet away)
Instant Death
If a character rolls 3 20s in a row on an attack the victim of the attack dies instantly. If a character rolls 3 1s in a row on an attack the attacker dies. (Character must be vulnerable to instant death)
Fumbled Saving Throws
If a character rolls a 1 on a saving throw the character increases the effect or the duration by fifty percent
Fumbled Concentration Checks
Anytime a spell caster rolls a natural 1 on their concentration check they provoke an AOO.
Experience Points
Characters will not receive Experience points but will be given levels when the GM and the story provides for it.
Books in Use
Only Paizo books will be allowed in this game. Anything from Paizo before the Pathfinder RPG will be converted
Side Note
If you have a broken ass combo or ability please discusses it with the D.M. before the game. Do not try to surprise the D.M. and spring something crazy during the game Thanks
I tend to do "On an attack roll, if any enemy botches all the players around them can make an attack of opportunity".
I use some of those myself. Nothing there will break the game.
Joey -- most of your houserules (exploding crits, instant death when attacking, etc.) are extremely PC-unfriendly, as they disproportionately affect people who make a lot of dice rolls (i.e., the PCs). That doesn't mean they're not workable -- it just means you need a balancing mechanism. I'd strongly advocate giving PCs (only) the opportunity to earn Action Points or something similar by good rolls, to balance all of the bad things that can happen to them on bad rolls. Then you get all the fun of a critical fumble system, for example, without having the drag of PCs bearing the brunt of the impact.
Having your PC die horribly when he rolls three 1s in a row in combat is a way to annoy players to the point of leaving your game. It will happen far too often.
I myself use a critical hit and critical fumble check for 20s and 1s, but it's followed by me rolling a percentile to see how horrible it is, and the really bad ones are generally things like sundered weapons or putting an eye out, rather than instakills.
Hit Points
Your PC will have low HP. I used to give 75% of the max HP per level, but I like the variation where you let them roll and if they roll under 50% you give them 50%. On average, it still works out to 75%.
I think you wrote another thread and I'm actually trying double MAX HP at level 1 on a new campaign, and it's working fairly nicely.
Character Traits
Pretty standard.
Maximum Starting Gold
Who cares? It's just starting gold.
I tend to pick it myself and I'll vary it depending on background, which can make things more interesting.
Drawing an Item
I think that's part of the rules, or at least implied.
Healing
Bleh. Slows the game down and promotes healing. Healing in combat has to be one of the most boring aspects of play, for my group at least. There is nothing epic or climatic about it, compared to landing a huge blow or some other more offensive action.
For healing I actually use static values, to speed it up.
Exploding Critical Hits
This will result in dead PCs, eventually. Eventually they will get hit and eventually crit (1 in 400) and they will take a huge blow.
I actually don't even like the crits in PF, I like 4E crits where the weapon damage is maximized and you don't have to make a confirmation roll. Faster game play and less swingy results.
Critical Fumbles
Too complicated. Too many charts makes the game run slower, you'd be surprised how much everything adds up and sucks away your time and energy.
I liked someone elses rules where a fumble provokes an attack of opportunity. It makes sense and I'm stealing that idea.
Also, fumbles aren't fun or heroic. It's bad enough you missed. See next entry.
Instant Death
If a character rolls 3 20s in a row on an attack the victim of...
Fumbles aren't fun and fumbles aren't heroic. Trust me, I used to play Rolemaster (it had several fumble charts). I had people die, lose ears, decapitated, etc, all from fumbles. If you play long enough, it WILL happen. Just warning you.
Rolemaster also had open-ended attack charts, where 3 "20s" (it was actually percentile) would mean instant death and yes, it happenned many many times to the PCs.
My brother actually reminded me of a time where he instantly killed an BBG with a crit and then an orc henchman got super lucky and instantly killed him as well.
It makes the game memorable, but sometimes not in a good way.
Three of our players really really want the 3 20/ 3 1 instant death rule
I saw a rule in my other thread when ever you spend a minute casting a healing spell its maximized
I might just say if you dont like your roll you get half
Also, the whole thing about the DM rolling healing when your roll is bad is really going to slow down your game. You'd be better off just saying you always got at least the average roll.
Ken
Should I do Half or Half+1 for each dice?
A quick comment on rolling Hit points....
I give max hit points at first level and each time a character levels they have the option to either roll two dice and take the highest or roll one die until it is at least half of max.
So, on a D10 a fighter rolling a single die would not be stuck with a 1 or a 2. They could roll until they rolled at least a 5.
It still lets the dice make the decision wihtout crippling a character with 3 bad levels of hit point rolls.
Three of our players really really want the 3 20/ 3 1 instant death rule
If I were in your shoes then, I'd be checking to make sure that their d20s have a 1 on one side and a 20 on the other.
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Having your PC die horribly when he rolls three 1s in a row in combat is a way to annoy players to the point of leaving your game. It will happen far too often.
I myself use a critical hit and critical fumble check for 20s and 1s, but it's followed by me rolling a percentile to see how horrible it is, and the really bad ones are generally things like sundered weapons or putting an eye out, rather than instakills.
Deaths are part of the game as far as PCs go. If there is not a reasonable threat that a player can die at any time then the dungeons become something of a blender with the PC's playing the blades.
While I do admit that random sh!t luck blows, the player should expect it to happen.
Personally I have a VERY active role in communication with my players and I require each of them to at least have a backup character in mind if not written up.
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The problem I have with the instant death rules is the same I have with any autosuccess or autofail rules: The lvl 1 commoner versus level 20 bad-ass scenario.
In this scenario, with an instant death rule, there will always be a 1 in 8000 chance that the bad-ass dies instantly due to his own ineptitude and thus loses. Go commoner! You just gained 6-7 levels! If the commoner wins initiative and attacks then there are two separate 1/8000 chances for this to happen. This works the same whether it's a level 10 bad-ass, level 20-bad-ass or a deity*.
I already don't like a peasant having a 1-in-20 chance of hitting a deity, much less a 1-400 chance of critting or a 1-8000 chance of instant killing.
(My solution was to have auto-success rolls turn into re-rolls with +20 circumstance modifiers and auto-failures into re-rolls with -20 circumstance modifiers, stacking until you roll something that is neither auto-success nor auto-failure for that roll. This has the side effect of making it so that extra to-hit and extra AC are NEVER out of style.)
*This depends on what deity rule-set you use, if any. In settings in which deities have stats, they sometimes get the ability to treat all rolls as 20s, which would negate the "commoner versus deity" scenario, as would deities being stat-less.
Deaths are part of the game as far as PCs go. If there is not a reasonable threat that a player can die at any time then the dungeons become something of a blender with the PC's playing the blades.
While I do admit that random sh!t luck blows, the player should expect it to happen.
Personally I have a VERY active role in communication with my players and I require each of them to at least have a backup character in mind if not written up.
Requiring players to have back-up characters is basically indicative of the type of world you're running: characters are disposable and expendable, and anyone who writes up an elaborate backstory is doomed to disappointment because the character who had some interesting history and color will probably die just as soon as the disposable mook the next player has written up, if not sooner since he hasn't been min-maxed for ultimate efficiency.
I'm not saying you won't get players who enjoy that style, but I personally find it unsatisfying.
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Requiring players to have back-up characters is basically indicative of the type of world you're running: characters are disposable and expendable, and anyone who writes up an elaborate backstory is doomed to disappointment because the character who had some interesting history and color will probably die just as soon as the disposable mook the next player has written up, if not sooner since he hasn't been min-maxed for ultimate efficiency.I'm not saying you won't get players who enjoy that style, but I personally find it unsatisfying.
For me at least I like to think of it as letting the players know that there IS an element of lethality in the game. This also doesn't limit them in any way from building elaborate, interesting and engaging characters. In fact just the other night I had a player on skype discussing his backup character for example. He is just as excited about this backup as he is for his barbarian who's been with us since level one.
Expendable is as far from what I want my players to feel, in fact the opposite it true, the loss of a party member should be a feared and much mourned over experience. But without some a real danger of it happening then their lives will start to be taken for granted. This is not to say that I am plotting to kill the PCs, but I don't believe in fudging rolls in a balanced encounter.
Difference in styles I chalk it up to though.
A quote from a player/Dm in my former game group
If there is no fear of death whats the point of bragging about high level characters
everygame should have the threat of death in it
Deaths are part of the game as far as PCs go. If there is not a reasonable threat that a player can die at any time then the dungeons become something of a blender with the PC's playing the blades.
IMO, there are plenty of ways for the GM to threaten PCs within the RAW. Most of them are called monsters. Some are called traps. Adding the threat of killing yourself on your own die rolls just cheapens it. Again, IMO.
Leaving aside the ethical value of fumbles, I still have this issue with the rule:
Critical Fumbles
If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll and fails to confirm the character will consult their confirmation roll to this chart.
Since all fumbles are house rules anyway, you really need to define what "confirm" means in the context of a fumble roll. If you only consult that chart if the player "fails to confirm," and you're using the confirm roll on the chart, and there's a 1 and a 20 on that chart, then what does it mean to fail to confirm?
Since all fumbles are house rules anyway, you really need to define what "confirm" means in the context of a fumble roll. If you only consult that chart if the player "fails to confirm," and you're using the confirm roll on the chart, and there's a 1 and a 20 on that chart, then what does it mean to fail to confirm?
Critical Fumbles
If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll and fails to confirm the character will consult their confirmation roll to this chart.
Just like Confirming Critical hits you need to Confirm Fumbles its an assumption that people who play would know about confirmation rolls
For me at least I like to think of it as letting the players know that there IS an element of lethality in the game. This also doesn't limit them in any way from building elaborate, interesting and engaging characters. In fact just the other night I had a player on skype discussing his backup character for example. He is just as excited about this backup as he is for his barbarian who's been with us since level one.
Expendable is as far from what I want my players to feel, in fact the opposite it true, the loss of a party member should be a feared and much mourned over experience. But without some a real danger of it happening then their lives will start to be taken for granted. This is not to say that I am plotting to kill the PCs, but I don't believe in fudging rolls in a balanced encounter.
Difference in styles I chalk it up to though.
The question is, what are you balancing the encounter to? The min-maxed mook one player is running, or the more roleplaying oriented character another player is running that has many points spent on things that make sense for the character background, not optimal for combat?
If you balance the encounter to challenge the first and the second type of character dies, then yeah, you're punishing anyone who isn't playing a cardboard mook.
There's also a difference between having an interesting character death and having a character who dies and is mourned for all of one episode and then never mentioned again.
A quote from a player/Dm in my former game group
If there is no fear of death whats the point of bragging about high level characters
everygame should have the threat of death in it
There is already lots of player death without exploding criticals, random instant death, and insta-death from fumble. You're just guaranteeing it.
You asked us what we think, why are you arguing? After all, none of us really cares how you run your campaign world, it's YOUR campaign world after all, and there are no right and wrong answers. You can have instant death everytime someone roles a 20, we don't care. Bottom line is it doesn't really matter as long as that's the game your want to play.
A quote from a player/Dm in my former game group
If there is no fear of death whats the point of bragging about high level characters
everygame should have the threat of death in it
There is already lots of player death without exploding criticals, random instant death, and insta-death from fumble. You're just guaranteeing it.
You asked us what we think, why are you arguing? After all, none of us really cares how you run your campaign world, it's YOUR campaign world after all, and there are no right and wrong answers. You can have instant death everytime someone roles a 20, we don't care. Bottom line is it doesn't really matter as long as that's the game your want to play.
I wasnt trying to argue I was trying to give my rational for the rules
A friend has stepped down her Criticals to maximum damage at the first step and taking a 'double confirmation' to inflict double damage. This is good for her crew, all local kids and her husband, as it encourages roleplay at their table.
"For me at least I like to think of it as letting the players know that there IS an element of lethality in the game."
The thing is, the threat of death should be reduced, not increased, for people with more skill. Straightforward critical fumble rules mean that a 16th level fighter fumbles four times more often than a 1st level commoner. And that just ain't right.
I'm all for big mortality risks. I like critical fumbles. But I also very, very strongly advocate a balancing mechanism that corrects for the "more experienced people fumble far more often" syndrome. Action points/hero points that can be earned more easily by more experienced people are one such mechanism. Having to roll to confirm critical fumbles is another. I use both in tandem.
The 3 roll instadeath idea never really hit me as unfair to the PCs until today... My mind might have changed because of this thread.
My part one has even more math about how unfair the 3 roll instant death is
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The thing is, the threat of death should be reduced, not increased, for people with more skill. Straightforward critical fumble rules mean that a 16th level fighter fumbles four times more often than a 1st level commoner. And that just ain't right.
First off, why is a level 1 commoner in a combat scenario? Of course he is going to be safer than the fighter, he is a non combative character. Characters who are out putting their lives in danger at every turn SHOULD be in danger ... at every turn. Your comparison is far from fair.
Yes he is an expert at what he does, but he also DOES dangerous things, and often. In addition, why should these martial characters get all the advantages of attacking multiple times (More hits, more damage, better combat position, etc.) but not have to suffer the inverse when they step on their shoelace? To me allowing fumbles, is allowing crits, without one my games would have neither.If you don't like fumbles... then fine don't use them.
To me swinging a sword around your head for minutes at a time surrounded my monsters SHOULD be more hazardous than standing in the back strategically firing off spells or the like when it is advisable to do so.
Hit Points
Characters start first level with max hit points any time a character rolls new hit points and they don’t want their roll they can take half of the max dice roll instead.
This is the standard rule in my group.
Character Traits
All character will select a two trait (one Campaign and one other) from the Pathfinder Character Traits List during character creation
Not exactly a house rule, depending on the setting.
Maximum Starting Gold
All characters begin play with the maximum possible gold for their 1st level class rather than rolling for it.
I always use average for 1st lv. characters
Drawing an Item
Any character who can draw a weapon as a part of a move can draw anything reasonable (a wand, potion, etc.) as a part of move. This is also true for the feat quick draw
Consider the bandoleer (non magical item)holds 8 items of dagger size or smaller which can be drawn as a free action. Cost 5 GP (Forgotten realms)
Healing
When a character uses a healing effect and does not like the roll of the dice they may ask the DM to roll for them you have to take the DMs result.
I have a house rule that you receive max healing out of combat, basically you can sit down and really let it sink in. only applies to spells cast out of combat.
Exploding Critical Hits
Whenever you threaten a critical hit if your confirmation roll is another critical hit (and confirms the critical) then increase the critical multiplier by one.
I do something similar. Whenever you roll a Nat 20 to confirm your crit, you increase the multiplier and can roll to confirm again.
Critical Fumbles
If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll and fails to confirm the character will consult their confirmation roll to this chart.
20-18 No effect
17-15 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round
14-7 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity unless the character makes an acrobatics check with a DC equal to the lowest CMD of characters threatening him
6-2 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC.
1 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC while falling prone and throwing his weapon (1d4 times 5 feet away)
You do realize the standard penalty for a nat 1 is make a DC 10 Dex check or drop the weapon, right?
Instant Death
If a character rolls 3 20s in a row on an attack the victim of the attack dies instantly. If a character rolls 3 1s in a row on an attack the attacker dies. (Character must be vulnerable to instant death)
I wouldn't, imagine what would happen if this happened to your big boss on the first round, kinda anti-climatic...
Fumbled Saving Throws
If a character rolls a 1 on a saving throw the character increases the effect or the duration by fifty percent
The standard penalty for a nat 1 on a save is damage to an item, whats wrong with that?
Fumbled Concentration Checks
Anytime a spell caster rolls a natural 1 on their concentration check they provoke an AOO.
This infringes on the fighter feat Spellbreaker
Experience Points
Characters will not receive Experience points but will be given levels when the GM and the story provides for it.
This works best for a story based game, make sure your players are OK with it.
I made some small changes to them yet again listening to you guys and my fellow players
Hit Points
Characters start first level with max hit points any time a character rolls new hit points and they don’t want their roll they can take half of the max dice roll instead.
Character Traits
All character will select a two trait (one Campaign and one other) from the Pathfinder Character Traits List during character creation.
Maximum Starting Gold
All characters begin play with the maximum possible gold for their 1st level class rather than rolling for it.
Drawing an Item
Any character who can draw a weapon as a part of a move can draw anything reasonable (a wand, potion, etc.) as a part of move. This is also true for the feat quick draw.
Healing
When a character uses a healing effect and does not like the total roll of the dice they may take a standard amount equal to half plus one of each dice.
Exploding Critical Hits
Whenever you threaten a critical hit if your confirmation roll is another critical hit (and confirms the critical) then increase the critical multiplier by one.
Critical Fumbles
If a character rolls a 1 on an attack roll and fails to confirm the character will consult their confirmation roll to this chart.
20-18 No effect
17-15 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round
14-7 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity unless the character makes an acrobatics check with a DC equal to the lowest CMD of characters threatening him
6-2 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC.
1 Character loses all attacks for the rest of the round and provokes an attack of opportunity at minus 5 AC while falling prone and throwing his weapon (1d4 times 5 feet away)
Instant Death
If a character rolls 3 20s in a row on an attack the victim of the attack is automatically reduced to the dying condition. If a character rolls 3 1s in a row on an attack the attacker is automatically reduced to the dying condition. (Character must be vulnerable to instant death)
Fumbled Saving Throws
If a character rolls a 1 on a saving throw the character increases the effect or the duration by fifty percent
Fumbled Concentration Checks
Anytime a spell caster rolls a natural 1 and fails their concentration check they provoke an AOO.
Magic Item Cards
Characters Magic items (besides Scrolls and Potions) will be kept on 3 by 5 cards. If you don’t have the card the character doesn’t have the magic item.
Experience Points
Characters will not receive Experience points but will be given levels when the GM and the story provides for it.
Books in Use
Only Paizo books will be allowed in this game. Anything from Paizo before the Pathfinder RPG will be converted
Side Note
If you have a broken ass combo or ability please discusses it with the D.M. before the game. Do not try to surprise the D.M. and spring something crazy during the game Thanks
Magic Item Cards
Characters Magic items (besides Scrolls and Potions) will be kept on 3 by 5 cards. If you don’t have the card the character doesn’t have the magic item.
This seems annoying and pointless, like you're trying to punish the players unnecessarily. can you explain your reasoning behind this, what purpose does it serve beyond causing your players to lose treasure in a way that has nothing to do with the game.
This seems annoying and pointless, like you're trying to punish the players unnecessarily. can you explain your reasoning behind this, what purpose does it serve beyond causing your players to lose treasure in a way that has nothing to do with the game.Magic Item Cards
Characters Magic items (besides Scrolls and Potions) will be kept on 3 by 5 cards. If you don’t have the card the character doesn’t have the magic item.
It works for my record keeping as when they sell magic items and buy magic items there is somthing tangible so I can track the item.
My former group loved the feel of magic item cards we always liked haveing a stack of magic items to compare who had what and who had more
why does Pathfinder do item cards along with each adventure path?
And if a card is lost and you say somthing before the game we can work it out its not to make them lose there items I just want the item cards at the table
And I have a index card box that will be for all the PCs to share
My former group loved the feel of magic item cards we always liked haveing a stack of magic items to compare who had what and who had more
I can understand this point, but not the fact that if you lose the card, you lose the item. You should be able to keep a list of items on your character sheet and keep cards for comparison. further more, shouldn't it be quality over Quantity?
why does Pathfinder do item cards along with each adventure path?
I haven't played an adventure path so I don't know about this.
Finally, if your PCs have no problem with this, then I have no room to talk.