******SPOILERS******
I just finished my first read-through of Greg “V for Violence” Vaughan's “Kings of the Rift” and must say that it, like so many other Adventure Path modules, is extremely well written, having its own style and pacing. I have three comments and/or questions regarding the module:
1)Map Legend of the Citadel of the Weeping Dragon. I studied the maps for a while trying to understand how exactly PCs are to get to the Dungeon Level One. There appear to be stairs that grant access, but I'm not sure where these stairs are coming from. My best guess is that access is granted via a stairwell that begins on the Third Level (between areas 9 and 11), and spirals past the Second and First Levels (with no access to these levels) ending at the Dungeon Level. Am I interpreting this correctly?
2)The Ominous Fabler. I earlier remarked about how the little strange guy, Ominous Fabler, stole the show in the Richard Pett masterpiece “Prince of Redhand”. In just now finishing the read-through for this module, I was both surprised and saddened that The Fool had been twisted by Kyuss's minions. While it makes or a nice back-stabbing scene, I feel like there has been enough backstabbing in the Age of Worms story line already (the PCs sniffed out Lashonna's dark secrets immediately). Instead, I will have The Fool make honest attempts to assist the PCs in their endeavors at the Rift, only to die sacrificially at the end against Brazzemal (or sooner if need be). He'll tell the characters that “they will have to write his song when this madness ends”, or perhaps that he “was just happy to be a small part of their legend.”
3)Alastor Land. What a great tie-in. Too bad it just doesn't work for my characters, whom are 2nd generation PCs, or any groups running this module as a one-shot or as a continuation in a separate campaign. Who steps in for Alastor, or do I just use Alastor and modify his monologue appropriately (he never knew these PCs)? I knew there would be scenes like this where I would lose some story-line impact because the original group of PCs died. Fortunately I have a back-up NPC whom could deliver parts of the monologue (I'd have to remove the Vaati references), but do you think perhaps using Icosiel could also work at as well?
I'd greatly appreciate some opinions/feedback on these matters (particularly items 1 and 3).
A DM I know has complained about that 3D map as well. And it doesn't help that the overhead map of Kongen-Thlunir has duplicate entries (I think there are two separate locations marked "J").
Another issue is the encounter levels versus the XP. The giants & dragons present a very real danger & use most of our party's resources, but their CR is so low compared to us that we don't even get XP for the giants. The result is, rather than battle anything, we just teleport wherever we need to go and run away from everything. This kind of renders the city encounters irrelevant, which may have been the idea. It's a shame, because the idea of using those guylines/turrets/bridges/etc. in a big fight sounds really cool.
A shameless bump now that Vaughn has resurfaced from the Underdark.
Another issue is the encounter levels versus the XP. The giants & dragons present a very real danger & use most of our party's resources, but their CR is so low compared to us that we don't even get XP for the giants. The result is, rather than battle anything, we just teleport wherever we need to go and run away from everything. This kind of renders the city encounters irrelevant, which may have been the idea. It's a shame, because the idea of using those guylines/turrets/bridges/etc. in a big fight sounds really cool.
I hate to say it, but "we don't get XP for this encounter so let's just teleport past it" seems kind of like metagaming to me. As a DM, one needs to set things up properly to avoid this sort of thing. The party shouldn't assume right off that these are just normal hill giants--they might after all have character levels. If the giants are easy to kill, but just burn up a couple of the party's maximized fireballs and such, have the giants put up a truce flag and negotiate once they realize they're overmatched by the party. Then give them some kind of XP award for neutralizing a threat/surmounting an obstacle without resorting to nuking every living thing in sight.
Also, keep in mind that the giants should already be using cover to their advantage, which should negate some of the party's ability to take out even a force of unleveled giants. They get improved cover, thus a big boost on their saving throws. The dragons get smart as soon as one or two of them are knocked out of the sky, and find ways to cover their approach. Plus taking out a small dragon attracts the attention of one of the leaders, which should be a challenging encounter.
Finally, I'd be very strict about teleporting in my game. Even with greater teleport you need some kind of description of the place you're teleporting to; if you're using dimension door you've got to either be able to see the place or have a pretty exact direction and distance. You might be able to teleport from one end of the bridge to the other pretty easily, but you shouldn't be able to use that method to get to the lower city, unless you talk to someone who can describe it extremely accurately or give you a precise direction and distance (Hill Giants aren't known for their scientific precision, mind you). [I also thought there was some kind of ward on the whole place against teleportation magic, but maybe I'm wrong].
And how does the party even know where it's supposed to go unless it talks to some of the giants to piece together the clues?
I hate to say it, but "we don't get XP for this encounter so let's just teleport past it" seems kind of like metagaming to me. As a DM, one needs to set things up properly to avoid this sort of thing. The party shouldn't assume right off that these are just normal hill giants--they might after all have character levels. If the giants are easy to kill, but just burn up a couple of the party's maximized fireballs and such, have the giants put up a truce flag and negotiate once they realize they're overmatched by the party. Then give them some kind of XP award for neutralizing a threat/surmounting an obstacle without resorting to nuking every living thing in sight.
You're right, it is a bit metagamey but there isn't much of a way around it -- spending 2-3 hours killing things and getting no real reward character-wise just plain isn't fun.
This is one I played in, not one I DMed. The giants were totally unwilling to do anything than attack us on sight because -- and I know this is just bad luck -- we had a fully-leveled dragon disciple in our group. Diplomacy of any kind was pretty much thrown out the window at that point. And the arcane caster had illusion as a prohibited school, so we couldn't really even disguise him.But yeah, when I ran it, the giants were more cooperative, or at least less "let's-murder-everyone-on-sight".
You're right, it is a bit metagamey but there isn't much of a way around it -- spending 2-3 hours killing things and getting no real reward character-wise just plain isn't fun.
This is one I played in, not one I DMed. The giants were totally unwilling to do anything than attack us on sight because -- and I know this is just bad luck -- we had a fully-leveled dragon disciple in our group. Diplomacy of any kind was pretty much thrown out the window at that point. And the arcane caster had illusion as a prohibited school, so we couldn't really even disguise him.But yeah, when I ran it, the giants were more cooperative, or at least less "let's-murder-everyone-on-sight".
The question I have is, if you could just go around the giants, why wouldn't you do that in the first place, regardless of XP awards? Or do your PCs frequently go around killing things "just for the thrill/experience?"
Then on the other hand, for some people violence is its own reward (walks away whistling innocently).
Yeah, like maybe those psychos who create an adventure featuring an epic battle between giant clans and dragons...
First off I want to say that from just reading through this adventure it looks too cool for school, as it were. Damm what a nice job! Giants vs. Dragons, all set in the city of the anasazi!
What this particular adventure makes me wish for is some sort of way to have 3-D maps for battle, with the dragons flying all around and what not! I can dreams anyhow.
As far as the dragon disciple I would put that down as bad luck. I would bet a half-giant would be an awesome addition to a party, makes me think that I might have to introduce a half-giant NPC during one of the earlier adventures....hmmm...
That having been said, I will be interested to see how this adventure pans out. My players are lwaful neutral, with the Paladin of Hextor having a strong leaning towards the dark side. I could see my players attempting to build a partnership with the Giant City afterwords, esepcially once they have taken over Alhastor (possibly a political alliance to help them take over the bandit kingdoms or something, we will see,) as in my game I have made Kongen-Thulnir a part of the bandit kingdoms, albiet a often distant member state, but still a member.
Ah. A dragon disciple in the party. That makes it a bit different. I guess it's easy to second-guess the DM when you don't know all the particulars.
Still, I think one at least ought to pretend to have an in-game reason to do things, not just phrase everything in terms of XP reward. "We have a job to do here, and it's not to slaughter every last giant in Kongen-Thulnir. That tower out there looks like a likely spot for the phylactery to be hidden. Wizard, can you get us out there without having to dodge rocks from here to the other end of the city?"
BTW, I take it you played this module after DMing it. Was it possible to enjoy things this way? (I know other people out there have been in the same position--James Jacobs has read most if not all of the adventures as part of his editorial duties, while playing Tyralandi Scrimm in Erik Mona's campaign. I guess you'd have to play like you're running a DMPC--have party members whose players haven't read the module infer the challenges ahead, share that info with the party, and then prepare spells, etc. based on that.
He can still refer to his history and speak of adventurers (in third person) who came to the Whispering Cairn. The current PCs can still be scions of the Vaati called by fate and the destiny of their blood. In fact so could the first party. It could be the common cause that drew them both into the conflict.
This seems like a good start to me. There are all sorts of incredible events occurring, artifacts reappearing, gods awakening etc. It seems as though part of the drama of the events could be that those with Vaati blood are being drawn by fate into this epic conflict. With a little foreshadowing ahead of time, Alastor's speech could still have a great impact. Perhaps other NPC's along the way refer to their own Vaati heritage (obliquely) and muse about why they feel some inner compulsion to aid the adventurers or merely be involved with fighting the rising tide of undead and worms. For example, wasn't Tenser/Manzorian's right hand man (without the magazines in front of me I can't recall his name) distrustful of the PC's? Maybe after the Spire of Long Shadows he subtly changes his attitude and hints at some ancestral connection he may feel (which he discovered after researching the PC's while they were away). I guess I'm envisioning some small hints along the way, perhaps unimportant at the time, to reinforce PC's feeling as though they are swept up in a history-making juggernaut.
As always, I appreciate the insight (+4 bonus) everyone has provided.
Oops, found a couple more.
:)
Joy...
Ah. A dragon disciple in the party. That makes it a bit different. I guess it's easy to second-guess the DM when you don't know all the particulars.
Still, I think one at least ought to pretend to have an in-game reason to do things, not just phrase everything in terms of XP reward. "We have a job to do here, and it's not to slaughter every last giant in Kongen-Thulnir. That tower out there looks like a likely spot for the phylactery to be hidden. Wizard, can you get us out there without having to dodge rocks from here to the other end of the city?"
BTW, I take it you played this module after DMing it. Was it possible to enjoy things this way? (I know other people out there have been in the same position--James Jacobs has read most if not all of the adventures as part of his editorial duties, while playing Tyralandi Scrimm in Erik Mona's campaign. I guess you'd have to play like you're running a DMPC--have party members whose players haven't read the module infer the challenges ahead, share that info with the party, and then prepare spells, etc. based on that.
Actually I played it first. So when I had to DM it, I didn't inundate the players with tedious battles for which they got no XP -- rather, I had the giants be more cooperative and the Fabler more useful as a scout to help avoid such fights.
In-game, when I was playing, we did actually rationalize the bypassing of battles as a "our dragon disciple is gonna get creamed if we plow through an army of giants to get where we need to go" line of thinking.
Oddly enough, the dragon disciple was the only lawful character, and the only one in favor of a diplomatic approach.
Was the Undercity originally supposed to be directly under the southern half of the upper city map?
If you look at the bridge (I-J) on the Undercity map and compare to the Q-R areas on the upper city map, it's a perfect fit. Even the placement of the little unnumbered rock to the north matches both maps.
What gives? Was this changed later?
I sure hope this thread necromancy works (and that anyone is still playing AoW with 3.5 rules and reading this).
My players are 18th level now and have just entered the Citadel of Weeping Dragons. I already had to optimize the citadel a bit (i.e. the walls in my version of the citadel are not only magically, but also gorgon-blood treated to hinder ethereal movement) so they would not bypass most of the adventure.
The fight with Alakora the Marilith will probably come up next session and I see a potential problem there:
According to her tactics, she starts the fight polymorphed and will then cast project image, so her following spells will originate from her projected image.
Sooo .. if she is polymorphed when she casts the spell, won´t her image be in her polymorphed form as well since it is supposed to "look, sounds, and smell" like her?
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I would assume that is correct, which makes for a better fight I think. One marilith isn't a huge fight for lvl 18 peeps, but if they have to figure out where she is first... She could at least do some damage to them spell-wise before she wades into melee.
Be glad you're running as 3.5, cause they don't have polymorph under PF rules, which is something I have been pondering how to deal with for a while now.