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FROM THE ORIGINAL MONSTER MANUAL
Ear Seeker
Floating Eye
Ki-Rin (maybe it's in a book I don't own)
Lamprey
Lurker Above
Piercer (again, maybe it's already out there)
Giant (dire) Porcupine
Portuguese Man-O-War
Giant (dire) Ram
Shedu
Giant (dire) Skunk
Slithering Tracker
Giant Slug
Amphisbaena (Giant) Snake
Strangle Weed
Su-Monster (man, I loved these!)
Giant (dire) TurtleFROM THE ORGINAL MONSTER MANUAL II
Atomie
Aurumvorax
Basidirond
Mobat
Slicer Beetle
Boobrie
Buckawn
Choke Creeper
Crysmal
Crystal Ooze
Daemons! (All of 'em)
Dracolisk (has this been done?)
Giant Dragonfly
Dragon Horse
Drelb
Executioner's Hood
Foo Creature
Gloomwing
Jelly Mustard (delicious!)
Kampfult
Korred
Mud-Man
Obliviax
Quasi-Elemental Lightning
Pyrolisk
Quickwood
Olive Slime
Squealer
Transposer
Xaren
Here is what I can come up with now --
Lurker can be found in Underdark (Forgotten Realms)
Ki-Rin can be found in Oriental Adventures
Piercer was deliberately changed to Darkmantle in the Monster Manual
Shedu was in the Fiend Folio
Amphisbaena can be found in Serpent Kingdoms (Forgotten Realms)
Basidirond can be found in Dragon #337
Crysmal can be found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook
Dracolisk, Pyrolisk, and Dragon Horse should all use the half dragon templates
Again, stats for Modrons can be found above.
Foo creatures are talked about in Oriental adventures and it says to simply use stats for celestial or dire wolves or celestial or dire lions.
Su-monsters can be found in the original Psionics Handbook online supplement -- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010330a
I have mentioned this before and in other posts -- I have an ongoing list/database of all official 3.X creatures that I could find. I have a few other projects that I am working on, but the current list is at 2,732 different creatures/types. It is in an excel sheet and using filters it is actually a rather powerful tool. If you would like a copy of what I have so far, send me an email to moffrimmer (at) viafamily (dot) com. Put "Creature List" or something similar in the title so I don't automatically delete it.
Again, hope that this helps.
Bill
Add grues to the list of things that haven't been updated.
Bigger than mehpits, (much, much) smaller than Avatars of Elemental Evil.
Ye gods, now I really feel old.
I started gaming 25 years ago, back when D&D was still in a thin, red book. I got it, along with Keep on the Borderlands, all in the original box with dice, for one dollar at a garage sale. AD&D hadn't even come out yet.
And, yes, my beard is showing some gray.
Anyway... I haven't had a chance to look at MM4 yet, but this discussion's told me a lot. I'm like most DMs my age, with barely any time to spare for actually using my creativity. Sure, I can take any critter from the MM, slap a template and some character levels, and have an instant encounter. I've even gotten to the point where I can create a character, with everything in place, using the new stat-block format. Dungeon is my best friend, as it means I don't run the risk of stalling when the game needs to be moving.
I like the things they've been doing lately, like giving details for Knowledge checks -- the rules on knowing about critters (as written in the PH) were lacking. The same goes for magic items; the DMG says you can get some hints about an item, but what constitutes a hint? Look at the DMG2: it gives you the sort of things you can tell your players, from basic descriptions of an item's powers, to an example history. None of it ever says you have to use it as written, but it's just the thing to get the ideas moving around.
Do I want the Monster Manual rewritten, to use the new stat-block and give me some ideas when someone pulls out their Knowledge skills? Certainly. Does this mean I want a book that has maps I can't use in play, or advanced creatures that I could assemble myself? Sadly, no.
But someone who's still learning the art of game-mastery would.
[Mea culpa on the grue bit. I should have checked the Monster Index on the WOTC D&D website. I have the damn thing bookmarked for just that reason.
I like the things they've been doing lately, like giving details for Knowledge checks -- the rules on knowing about critters (as written in the PH) were lacking. The same goes for magic items; the DMG says you can get some hints about an item, but what constitutes a hint? Look at the DMG2: it gives you the sort of things you can tell your players, from basic descriptions of an item's powers, to an example history. None of it ever says you have to use it as written, but it's just the thing to get the ideas moving around.
Do I want the Monster Manual rewritten, to use the new stat-block and give me some ideas when someone pulls out their Knowledge skills?
I agree about the addition of the Knowledge skill info blocks. Those are immensely useful. Not that I couldn't just wing it for monsters not so blessed. Especially with the examples provided. But, having them right there not only saves me the trouble, but it reinforces how useful the often ignored Knowledge skills are.
I also don't mind the new descriptions added to spells, etc. At the very least they make me think, "That is NOT how it's going to look in my world!"
I have mentioned this before and in other posts -- I have an ongoing list/database of all official 3.X creatures that I could find. I have a few other projects that I am working on, but the current list is at 2,732 different creatures/types.
Thanks, Bill. That's much better than a kick in the nuts! I'll drop you a line and keep up the hard and time consuming work involved in what you're doing.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, way I see it, one of the guys who writes these dang adventures wants more critters statted up.
And, no offense Seb, but you DID say you LIKED the presentation of the froghemoth in that adventure; would it be a reach to say that in the absence of that adventure, you would be here touting the ludicrosity of aforementioned beast?
It'd be nice to give those guys ready-statted beasties. THEY'LL slap together the adventures.
Heathansson(a critter in every pot)Guvner of Nod
Honestly, I probably would trash talk the froghemoth if I had just been given the 3. 5 stats and nothing else. It's a pretty silly monster. I would never have considered using spider eaters if it weren't for Seige of the Spidereaters making them interesting. Sometimes the difference between a silly monster that gets used and one that doesn't is sufficient background to give enough context to outweigh the silliness.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What? You're not going to bag on the Giant Skunk?
BTW, just because you've never used it, does that mean you never will? That's awfully closed-minded.
*shrug* Call it closed minded if you want, but out of every monster book (outside the MM) about 10% of the monsters become regularly used, 25% are cool and I'd like to use, 50% are filler, and the rest I would never use (either because they are yet another fey/undead/variant or because they're just not my cup of tea). I don't think I'm unique in this aspect. How many campaigns do you run without goblins? Illithids? Drow? How many issues of Dungeon pass w/o seeing one of these monsters show up? There are a core group of near universal monsters that show up again and again and again in play.
I think I can safely say that I won't ever use, or wish I could use, the Giant Slug. Heck, I cut the giant frog out of the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil despite its large helping of nostalgia because giant animals are boring.
As far as "strong evidence that the most worthwhile monsters have already been converted" goes, what evidence? That you didn't care for them? What kind of evidence is that? The evidence I see is that there are obviously tons more worthwhile creatures that are being plucked from the old books and coverted here and there, never more than a couple at a time (Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Lords of Madness, etc.).
Your list was mostly giant animals, creatures with dorky names, and other unrecognizable monsters. There weren't any classics or hidden gems buried in there, just a bunch of filler that doesn't need to be recycled. Here's my analogy. You're opening a zoo. What do most people want to see at the zoo? Exotic animals, bears and tigers, snakes and otters, creatures you don't normally get to see in real life or that are interesting. You don't go to see domestic dogs, cats, cows and frogs. You don't go to see Indian cockroaches or Brazilian ants. So, if you were starting a zoo, and I said to you: "Dude, what kind of zoo is this? Where are the goldfish and Chinese daddy-long leg spiders? They're animals (as that term is broadly used) too! They deserve to be in the zoo," you would rightfully laugh at me. Is it subjective to think that a I'd rather see a lion than a pigeon at the zoo? I suppose it is, but I don't think it's an uncommon opinion.
If WotC could put dinosaurs in their zoo, hell yeah I'd want to see a whole zoo full of dinosaurs. But dinosaurs are extinct. The best WotC can do is open an all new puppy and african squirrel zoo, throw in a bengal tiger to make it look sexy, and start selling tickets. Let me see the tiger roaming in a larger cage, stalking deer. Let me come up close and touch him, feel his teeth, see how powerful he is up close. Let me have some quality time with the cool animals and yeah, I'll skip the hedgehogs, african deer, and other lame animals.
Your list was mostly giant animals, creatures with dorky names, and other unrecognizable monsters. There weren't any classics or hidden gems buried in there, just a bunch of filler that doesn't need to be recycled. Here's my analogy. You're opening a zoo. What do most people want to see at the zoo? Exotic animals, bears and tigers, snakes and otters, creatures you don't normally get to see in real life or that are interesting. You don't go to see domestic dogs, cats, cows and frogs. You don't go to see Indian cockroaches or Brazilian ants...
Sorry. I know I said I was finished posting, but reading this paragraph just made me chuckle. In a good way. Thanks for the laugh. By the same token I would probably warn you to stay away from the giant skunk cage since it's as big as a horse and likely to spray you with something so strong and foul it would nauseate you and probably cause some kind of temporary ability damage.
I guess you don't use any dire animals in your adventures? Though, those were only a fraction of my meager, incomplete list. Is there no creatures from old sources you would like to see revised? Nothing?!
Here's the core of our difference in our points of view. Whereas you are fairly turned off to most of the content of a majority of the creatures in the various monster books, you've admitted that the same creatures you didn't care for became appealing and quite interesting to you when a writer made really good use of it in a Dungeon adventure (or any other published source of adventures).
For me, I'm the guy that's trying to write those adventures that present really interesting new takes on or good use of those monsters you're thumbing right past each time you open your books. I want more to draw from and I want revisions of old stuff I've used in games I've run years and years ago.
The problem is that they are so scattered all over the place that it's hard to track them all down. Half the books referred to by the helpful posters previously are ones I don't own and don't intend to. Others have resurfaced in Dragon magazines (f.e. the Carrionette), in Dungeon adventures, or on someone's website.
With a new Monster Manual I had hoped to find at least a little bit of concentrated critters among the others that were revised old ones. And, of course, some cool new ones.
So, there you have it. I want more stuff to draw from to write adventures that I hope to get published. You want a source book that a writer has detailed the monsters and created some mini-adventures for you.
Neither one of us is wrong in what we want.
because giant animals are boring.
Not always. Not long ago my characters where stuck in a desert (still are) and they found a rocky outcropping where they were seeking shelter for the day, and were attacked by a giant lobster. Of course the whole reason I made it was because earlier that day B52's "Rock Lobster" was stuck in my head, but it was actually a good encounter and scared them a little bit even with the silly factor. Also it gave them an abundnce of meat that they figured out how to make into jerky since their supplies had become very low. Weird, sure, but still fun. :)
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I'm not one to borrow words, so I'm not starting with a quote from another fan.
My initial impression of the MM IV was good, and that hasn't changed. I like the additional attention to lairs and ecology. I like the format that the stats are written in. I like the leveled up monsters for ease of use. I only have a few gripes.
I think there were too many entries for Tiamat's spawn. To try and put this outlook in perspective, let me say that I plan to RUN A CAMPAIGN based around Tiamat's goal of taking over the world through prolific breeding (as mentioned in Races of the Dragon). Creators and editors, thank you for another book that I will find use for in my overwhelming library, but the 'spawn' leave a bad taste in my mouth. My campaign likely won't include more than two of these ghastly beasts, as they are better replaced with half-dragon creatures in my opinion.
It gives credence to the arguement, 'what happened to the majesty and uniqueness of the dragon as a PC terror?' My two coppers.
I've had a chance to compare and evaluate MMIV, and have stood it up against other monster sourcebooks. Here's my opinions about the book.
1. The new monster format takes a bit of getting used to and is really no better or worse than the old format. The differences between them are trivial when you really think about it. They're both relatively easy to read for anyone with half a brain, and tell you what you need to know.
2. The new ecology, society, and treasure sections are useful, though their presence in the book means that each monster entry is longer than the entries for previous monster manuals. It basically means that while you get more information about each monster you get less monsters. The information is generally quite well-written, but its usefulness is dependant on individual DMs. Hopefully WotC's module designers read these sections themselves before introducing the monsters into their published adventures.
3. The maps and lairs are welcome in one sense, but are really just a filler in another. If you struggle with designing maps then they are quite useful. Of course, a book devoted to scores of interesting maps with descriptions could have been written, leaving more room for monsters in this one.
4. The statistical entries for some of the humanoid races (drow, orcs, etc) are good for time-strapped DMs, but by the same token, the documented NPCs are all of a specific level (4th or 6th), and if you don't have the associated books (like Complete Adventurer if you are using the drow sniper) their value is debatable. What if you are running a 9th-level adventure with drow in it and don't have access to this book or want to make higher or lower level drow? It still means a lot of work. Indeed, the only entry that has any sort of real structure is the lizardfolk entry. At least that documents one specific tribe and gives you the basic information for building a series of adventures around it.
5. The other monsters are generally quite good (such as the skuirid, vitreous drinker, and others), but there are way too many spawn of Tiamat, and some of the monsters are rather mundane (such as the deathdrinker or corrupture).
In all the book only contains about 70-75 'new' monsters. Not enough for a full-size monster manual, considering that many of the accessory books have had 20-40 monsters in them, plus a wealth of other information. Therefore, I have to disagree with Sebastion and agree with Steve. The book could and should have been better.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In all the book only contains about 70-75 'new' monsters. Not enough for a full-size monster manual, considering that many of the accessory books have had 20-40 monsters in them, plus a wealth of other information. Therefore, I have to disagree with Sebastion and agree with Steve. The book could and should have been better.
It's easy to say in the abstract that a book could be better. The assumption seems to be that there were some cool monsters left on the cutting room floor taken out for filler maps/lairs. I would submit that in fact, there were filler monsters left on the cutting room floor. Either an additional dozen colorspawn clevernames or some giant animals.
Filler is filler. The question is, do you you want filler monsters or other filler.
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To take the zoo analogy one step further,
When I was younger, at the zoo, I'd go straight for the lion, or the tiger, or the big flashy rhinoceros or giraffe.
Now I'm more patient. I can look at the alligator basking there in the sun not doing much of anything. Or the alligators that gather in an open-mouthed chorus around the podium at feeding time, and ask, "how the hell do they KNOW it's feeding time?" Or the hedgehog, or the quail from South Africa. I can find the fascination there.
I read a sci fi novel from Larry Niven called "The Legacy of Heorot," which had an alien menace whose behavior was based off of the quirky behavior of a certain kind of African frog. It was a damn fine book, and an ingenius monster.
The rambling point I'm trying to make is, I guess I'd rather have what some may view as cuttingroom floor beasties in my Monster Manual; there's potential even there.
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Drow Ninja! Heh, they've infiltrated the DMG2! Oh noes!!
Drow Ninja???????
Drow NINJA??????
Dang it! Another freaking drow ninja! *Grabs an extra-large fly swatter*
At least they don't fly.SMACK!
Hence the reason why they need to stop developing so many darn NEW monsters and just convert the ones from older editions. It'd be easier and much more efficient and at the same time please a majority of the gamers from veterans to new.
Not sure what another twig on the bonfire will accomplish here but I'm bored and haven't posted anything for a good while.
I'm a noob....*sniff*
I started playing two or three years ago with a small group of friends. So I haven't played long and I haven't played with a swath of other people. Over all I think I have a pretty good grasp on the game and I hesitate to brag that I've come up with a few interesting encounters and adventures. So has my noob buddy Saern.
I would not buy this book. I do not need classed out monsters and encounter locations because I find it more entertaining/rewarding to do it myself and make the situation as unique as possible.
However it seems like now may be a good time to note that I have just graduated high school. I'm not in a relationship. I have no job at the moment, and I have no children. So even though my two cents are pitted against this book now, I may have a change of heart once I'm 36. Trying to get a game together with friends while working a nine to ten, putting up with my smart ass kids, and trying to get the house painted because my wife got suckered in to having her 20 year class reunion over at our place. However, at that point the book wil probably be useless and incompatible with my 11.6 edition sourcebooks.
So what my odd predicted lifestyle and amazingly long run on sentance seems to be saying is that I don't find this book to be noob friendly, so much as I find it person with better things to do friendly.
just my 2.
In all the book only contains about 70-75 'new' monsters. Not enough for a full-size monster manual, considering that many of the accessory books have had 20-40 monsters in them, plus a wealth of other information. Therefore, I have to disagree with Sebastion and agree with Steve. The book could and should have been better.
It's easy to say in the abstract that a book could be better. The assumption seems to be that there were some cool monsters left on the cutting room floor taken out for filler maps/lairs. I would submit that in fact, there were filler monsters left on the cutting room floor. Either an additional dozen colorspawn clevernames or some giant animals.
Filler is filler. The question is, do you you want filler monsters or other filler.
Well if that is true Sebastion, then D&D is in a truly sorry state. Perhaps some of the designers and developers for WotC are suffering burnout? Maybe they need to make an open call on their website for people to put in monster ideas. Of course, they could also start converting all those Dragon magazine monsters and put them into a book. Monsters like the gray shiver, malfera, nagpa, suel lich, and chainweaver (some of which are new and some of which are not). Of course they then wouldn't appear in the next Dragon Compendium.
Hence the reason why they need to stop developing so many darn NEW monsters and just convert the ones from older editions. It'd be easier and much more efficient and at the same time please a majority of the gamers from veterans to new.
As long as they don't go converting the tirapheg, symbiotic jelly, carbuncle or some other crappy monster (unless they actually make them cool).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well if that is true Sebastion, then D&D is in a truly sorry state. Perhaps some of the designers and developers for WotC are suffering burnout? Maybe they need to make an open call on their website for people to put in monster ideas. Of course, they could also start converting all those Dragon magazine monsters and put them into a book. Monsters like the gray shiver, malfera, nagpa, suel lich, and chainweaver (some of which are new and some of which are not). Of course they then wouldn't appear in the next Dragon Compendium.
The state of D&D has nothing to do with it; filler is a natural part of the market. Check out the latest design/development articles on the WotC website - there isn't room in the game for an infinite number of monsters. Once a niche is filled, you've either got to have a monster that fits the niche better or create a new niche. Most monsters do neither, they just fill a more specific sub-niche. They are the filler monsters, and they were most of MMII, MMIII and FF.
That being said, I think the game is close to a burnout stage. What I'd really like is a new edition. We're at the end of the cycle, all the worthwhile stuff has been published.
Or maybe, it's just me who's at the end of a cycle. I'm just not excited about additional D&D products these days. I allowed my subscription to Dragon to lapse because I felt like it was mostly filler. But the irony is that I don't think I've ever liked Dragon more than I do now. In any event, your mileage may vary.
If I'm the minority, that's fine. My need to be right is far outweighed by my need to have D&D survive another 30 years. If the route to survival is through MMV containing new monsters and updates of old monsters, then I hope they publish it, I hope it sells like hotcakes, I hope it provides WotC with a nice tidy profit. I hope that 4e is released when there is a critical mass ready to support it and not a moment earlier. I may not buy many products between now and then, but if the rest of you do, that's fine by me.
One final point. It's Sebastian. Not Sebastion.
I don't think thte game is close to burnout at all.
I come up with new stuff all the time.
A lot of it I query, and the issue is often not that there isn't room but that the new ideas don't fit well in the customary slots.
But there is still plenty of room.
The game worlds are a little stagnant but that curable too - just need a bigger map and a stronger job selecting and directing a creative team to populate it.
Even historical/real world cultural references have barely been tapped - the oriental stuff is generically oriental, but if you look into specific country regional stuff there are tons of creatures, and NPCs that could be fleshed out.
And the there is the Middle East, Africa, Central and South America, the Slavs, the Lapps, all of the Native American Indian Tribes, India, Burma, Thailand, the South Pacific there are no end of cultures to draw from that have barely been touched. Make the map bigger, isolate the cultures, make the map bigger add folkloric races, make the map bigger, add cultures and creatures from different times, and you have more than enough room to explore. And a world that makes a lot more sense - although you sacrifice some of PC everyone is everywhere flavor of current gameworlds.
Even styles of magic -
Pact Magic - too bad they used the name there are a lot of ideas there alone that could be explored. Pacts with elemental lords, pacts with specific outsiders, aliens, ancestral spirits, etc.
Ritual Magic and Collaborative spell casting.
Long Casting - spells that take minutes hours days to cast - instead of a 6 seconds.
Magic Places, and places that enhance hinder magic.
Magical weather - if magic exists in nature, why wouldn't nature manifest magic - storms that wash away, block, empower magic.
New kinds of creature abilities - I can think of at least a dozen off the top of my head.
Same for feats, spells, etc.
The point what is written for the game does come close to touching the variety that exists in the real world - until it does there is no risk of running out of stuff to add.
The challenge, is to keep new ideas balanced and bear in mind the ramifications of introducing them to the game - which is tricky because balance is generally more difficult than creativity.
My 2 cents.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Not sure what another twig on the bonfire will accomplish here but I'm bored and haven't posted anything for a good while.
I'm a noob....*sniff*
We all were at one time. ;)
However it seems like now may be a good time to note that I have just graduated high school. I'm not in a relationship. I have no job at the moment, and I have no children. So even though my two cents are pitted against this book now, I may have a change of heart once I'm 36. Trying to get a game together with friends while working a nine to ten, putting up with my smart ass kids, and trying to get the house painted because my wife got suckered in to having her 20 year class reunion over at our place. However, at that point the book wil probably be useless and incompatible with my 11.6 edition sourcebooks.
God I hope 11.6 is a longer time in coming than that--Personally, despite some people's rush for a 4th ed., I'm hoping it takes closer to the same kind of time it took to go from 1st to 2nd ed. or 2nd to 3rd ed. (10 years minimum, please) rather than the mere couple of years between 3 and 3.5. The core rules don't need that much work.
Hopefully the D&D will make it to an 11.6 edition but sometime around 2073 would be better. Just in time for me to DM a game on my 100th birthday.
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One way WotC could do without a lot of the large animal fillers - Templates.
Dire Template
Giantkind Template
Legendary Template
This way we wouldn't have to worry so much about Dire Skunks and Giant Slugs taking up space, and likewise, if you want a Dire War Pony in your campaign, you'd have to template to make one.
One way WotC could do without a lot of the large animal fillers - Templates.
Dire Template
Giantkind Template
Legendary TemplateThis way we wouldn't have to worry so much about Dire Skunks and Giant Slugs taking up space, and likewise, if you want a Dire War Pony in your campaign, you'd have to template to make one.
The problem is that animals sometimes don't work the way we think they do. Some animals have some neat attacks or ways to repel attacks that we forget about if we reduce everything to a template where you just add X to the armor class, Y to the hit dice, change the size a category, and move the natural attacks up a category.
I actually don't think dire animals or even regular animals are filler information in a monster book, but I do like it when designers spend some time actually doing some research on real world animals to give them some cool ideas for special attacks and qualities.
That being said, I think the game is close to a burnout stage. What I'd really like is a new edition. We're at the end of the cycle, all the worthwhile stuff has been published.
Or maybe, it's just me who's at the end of a cycle. I'm just not excited about additional D&D products these days.
I owned a gaming store from 1995 to 2000 during the tail end of 2nd Edition AD&D and we went under just as the 3rd Edition MM was coming out (due more to a bout of very bad health on my part than poor sales, but sales were not super in any regard).
Fans who had been with AD&D for a good amount of time were hardly ever excited about new product, except perhaps miniatures, game aids, dice (I could always sell dice!), and special issues of Dragon - ones that had themes in them which were appealing to certain customers for some reason or other.
There were some hardcore players who bought one of everything TSR (then WotC) put out for the game, of course, but they never seemed all that thrilled with the books or boxed sets. Just mildly interested here and there.
However fans who were new to the game (and I managed to nurture new fans on a regular basis with in-store gaming) were always excited to get a new module they could run for their home group, a new set of variant rules, a setting book, etc.
So perhaps the books that do not thill you (and others who feel the same as you do) are a thrill to newer gamers, and I would hate for there NOT to be books out there to thrill those folks.
I know you would too, based on your post.
So in this regard, at least, D&D is not dead or in some state of stasis. I don't even know that the game product line is as bloated as it was back when I ran the store.
To many, 3.5 is alive and fresh. It is for them that books like MM 4 is written.
Diehards will (and have) scooped the book up. It has probably sold as well as Hasbro expected it to.
DMs new to the game will buy it, since in the bookstore and other mass market stores, this could well be the ONLY monster book out there when they go to buy one. (Case in point: my local Borders has 5 copies MM4's and one of the MM 3 as well as one of the Scarred Land monster books. That's it. No other choices are out there if Borders is where you buy your stuff.)
In the end, the book does what Hasbro wants it to do (sell).
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I clicked on Wizards today, saw somebody was talking about those little squirrel guys. And making them into ninjas.
Then I had to go do something else for a while.
"I am Tufty, the Shadow of Death! Fear my deadly Acorns of Doom!" To be fair, the guy who wrote the article (Mike Mearls, I think) did admit the creatures were pretty silly to start with.
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Not sure what another twig on the bonfire will accomplish here but I'm bored and haven't posted anything for a good while.
I'm a noob....*sniff*
I started playing two or three years ago with a small group of friends. So I haven't played long and I haven't played with a swath of other people. Over all I think I have a pretty good grasp on the game and I hesitate to brag that I've come up with a few interesting encounters and adventures. So has my noob buddy Saern.
I would not buy this book. I do not need classed out monsters and encounter locations because I find it more entertaining/rewarding to do it myself and make the situation as unique as possible.
However it seems like now may be a good time to note that I have just graduated high school. I'm not in a relationship. I have no job at the moment, and I have no children. So even though my two cents are pitted against this book now, I may have a change of heart once I'm 36. Trying to get a game together with friends while working a nine to ten, putting up with my smart ass kids, and trying to get the house painted because my wife got suckered in to having her 20 year class reunion over at our place. However, at that point the book wil probably be useless and incompatible with my 11.6 edition sourcebooks.
So what my odd predicted lifestyle and amazingly long run on sentance seems to be saying is that I don't find this book to be noob friendly, so much as I find it person with better things to do friendly.
just my 2.
Wow! 36 - that's so OLD!
But I think the point is valid. I'm 35, in a relationship with a full-time job. While it is fun to create enemies with levels, it is horrifically time-consuming. Some nasties with this done for you is very helpful to a busy person with other stuff to do.
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However it seems like now may be a good time to note that I have just graduated high school. I'm not in a relationship. I have no job at the moment, and I have no children. So even though my two cents are pitted against this book now, I may have a change of heart once I'm 36. Trying to get a game together with friends while working a nine to ten, putting up with my smart ass kids, and trying to get the house painted because my wife got suckered in to having her 20 year class reunion over at our place. However, at that point the book wil probably be useless and incompatible with my 11.6 edition sourcebooks.
I had to laugh at this -- seeing as how I am 37 currently and like to think of myself as "still kickin'".
There has been other talk as to what kind of filler is good.
I would prefer to continue to see leveled monsters in modules and dungeon and dragon issues. Modules can be part of a manual, but overall I don't want them in a monster manual. I don't mind seeing an example of a new monster leveled.
It might have been better if they had included a good portion of this book into a "Book of Monstrous Humanoids" or something similar.
I don't mind the lairs "filler" as truthfully, this can be fairly easily modified for most any creature/scenario.
The main reason I would much rather see leveled monsters in modules/adventures rather than in a monster manual is that you can see how it would fit. People seem to have problems with "Drow Ninjas". There really isn't anything wrong with Drow ninjas as long as the adventure that includes them makes sense. In this case it seems that since there isn't an adventure attached to the drow ninjas you would be trying to create a situation to include them that may or not make sense. I believe that it was Sebastian that said that the Froghemoth is one of the stupidest creatures created (and I agree), but in the Champions belt, it makes sense, and it works. Creating strange character/creature combinations seems a waste to me unless the adventure it is in makes sense.
Bring on the squirrel ninjas -- my swashbuckler dire rats will mess them up...
Director of Narrative
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Hopefully the D&D will make it to an 11.6 edition but sometime around 2073 would be better. Just in time for me to DM a game on my 100th birthday.
So, when should we expect the "Large Print" editions to come out? 4-5 years. Then you guys whining about page count can get a big ol' 450 page tome to lug around with yer hip all busted up.
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"I am Tufty, the Shadow of Death! Fear my deadly Acorns of Doom!" To be fair, the guy who wrote the article (Mike Mearls, I think) did admit the creatures were pretty silly to start with.I clicked on Wizards today, saw somebody was talking about those little squirrel guys. And making them into ninjas.
Then I had to go do something else for a while.
Actually, more I think about it, it makes a great paranoid delusion. "Squirrels? They're Ninja. THEY send them to SPY on me. Here me, squirrel? I know WHAT you ARE!!!"
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Director of Narrative
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I actually don't think dire animals or even regular animals are filler information in a monster book, but I do like it when designers spend some time actually doing some research on real world animals to give them some cool ideas for special attacks and qualities.
Agreed! The list of animal stats has always been lacking in my opinion. I try to be pretty real-world in my games and wild critters were a pretty big threat to folk not in populous areas. I guess to be accurate, still kinda are. I've always made up my critters (that's Texan for animals), but enjoy seeing more 'official' stats to back me up. Two of the ones I've done in the past 6 months was a chameleon and a hedgehog. Not in the dangerous category but templated with 'were-' and dire, respectively they were quite useful. [Sorry Lillith for not submitting my critters when I already said I would, I'll get on that]
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Director of Narrative
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Actually, more I think about it, it makes a great paranoid delusion. "Squirrels? They're Ninja. THEY send them to SPY on me. Here me, squirrel? I know WHAT you ARE!!!"
With the number of roadkill squirrels I see around town I have a hard time thinking of them as ninjas. I was gonna suggest raccoons or possums, but um...I'd be making the same point.
Hence the reason why they need to stop developing so many darn NEW monsters and just convert the ones from older editions. It'd be easier and much more efficient and at the same time please a majority of the gamers from veterans to new.
I agree with you here.
I felt that the MMIV was just okay. Not good, not bad, but okay. However, I would rather see a book of monstes from old editions or even a Dungeon/Dragon Compendium that includes tons of revised monsters from both Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
I would buy that in a heartbeat.
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Actually, more I think about it, it makes a great paranoid delusion. "Squirrels? They're Ninja. THEY send them to SPY on me. Here me, squirrel? I know WHAT you ARE!!!"
"It's the little black squirrels! The little black squirrels! Spying on me, watching me. Walking through walls and attacking me with deadly martial arts. If you go down to the woods today you are definately in for a big surprise! Hahahahahahahaha!!!!" Cue being dragged off in a strait-jacket by big burly chaps in white coats.
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I've actually had a brief look at the book now that I have it, and have sampled both some new monsters and the old-monsters-with-class-levels that are controversial. Without a full view of the book, my take is that the new monsters seem quite good (read the zerns in detail, and one of the new yugoloths) and the rebores on the existing monsters are likewise fairly pregnant with possibilities (I looked at the yuan-ti specifically). Frankly, I like anything that can give me ideas for plots, and both the new monsters and existing ones do that.
The new format is a mixed blessing. It can be hard to find stuff, though it is all there if you concentrate (not always easy at 5.00am, but I can't sleep for some reason). The details on ecology and possible encounters are also quite good, and potentially idea inspiring. I don't get inspired by maps, so the lairs are not really my cup of tea, but I know lots of people like them (per the popularity of Maps of Mystery).
So I would give this a reasonable thumbs up. However, I would suggest that the main reason for the relative lack of new monsters, vs existing ones, is the relative lack of new monster niches, rather than a public crying out for a tome of pre-levelled humanoids. So if I was WotC, I might delay the new MM for a few years at least. This volume is OK, but I probably wouldn't welcome another volume with more existing monsters souped up, unless it was really, really good.
You know I still can't find the entry on the Drow ninja (darn those stealthy ninjas!) in the Drow section, but I do have to boggle that people get hooked up on stuff like this. D&D is not culturally specific when it talks about monks or barbarians, or most of all, the druid. Every one of these classes has a huge amount of real world cultural baggage--and without exception about the only thing kept is the name. Real world druids aren't city-hating shapeshifters, monks aren't duel seeking fist fighters looking to become outsiders; so what's the big deal that a fantasy ninja isn't a real world japanese sengoku jidai era ninja? It's a class, and has been given a name and a certain flavor to reflect a certain cross-section of silent acrobat/assassin character and really that seems the kind of combat class I find MOST appropriate to the Drow, since betrayal and assassination are central tenants of their faith.
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You know I still can't find the entry on the Drow ninja (darn those stealthy ninjas!)....
It is called the Lolth's Sting
.... but I do have to boggle that people get hooked up on stuff like this. D&D is not culturally specific when it talks about monks or barbarians, or most of all, the druid. Every one of these classes has a huge amount of real world cultural baggage--and without exception about the only thing kept is the name. Real world druids aren't city-hating shapeshifters, monks aren't duel seeking fist fighters looking to become outsiders; so what's the big deal that a fantasy ninja isn't a real world japanese sengoku jidai era ninja? It's a class, and has been given a name and a certain flavor to reflect a certain cross-section of silent acrobat/assassin character and really that seems the kind of combat class I find MOST appropriate to the Drow, since betrayal and assassination are central tenants of their faith.
I have to agree. That is why, presumably, they called it Lolth's Sting instead of drow ninja. As a concept (a stealthy, murderous drow) it seems completely drow. I see no disconnect at all.
Personally, I am toying with the idea of minotaur samurai (in Xendrik) for my Eberron campaign. But they won't be "samurai", but simply the ruling warrior class of a lawful, sophisticated, feudal minotaur culture. It just mixes things up a bit, uses the rules to the full (might as well get value for money out of my rulebook purchases), and has absolutely nothing to do with medieval Japan. Or Greek myth, come to think on it. Just big, hairy, horny (if you catch my drift) dudes in armour with two swords. Riding tricerotops. Did I mention the tricerotops?
While we're on the subject of whether this book should have been published/or should be purchased, I was just looking at the upcoming releases listed on the WoTC website. I was quite amazed to see that there is yet ANOTHER round of hardback Class-related books to be released (Ex. The Complete Mage-I believe one by Skip Williams was called). Can someone please explain to me why we need yet another round of books with the crap WoTC couldn't bother to get into the first 'Complete' class-related books? Do we really need to purchase yet another Fighter book to play a character who kills monsters with a sword? The amount of books is getting totally out of hand, and they just keep coming. When does it end? My players who buy all the books will literally be using Dolley's to wheel all their books into the game shop in the near future or risk hernias. I'm a capitalist and I like money, but at this point, I believe WoTC is seriously watering down the game simply to make a buck.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I agree. That's why I think they've got to do Greyhawk soon. Either that, or The Complete Fishwife, The Complete Swineherd, The Complete Linkboy, and Sewerscape: a complete guide to ecology and adventuring in sewers, complete with 9 prestige classes, sewer feats, and sewer spells.
Power Word: Flush?
(Of course, if they just came out with 4e, we could have the cream of the crop in the core rules! No need for a dozen books, it would be concentrated into three volumes of core goodness. Huzzah!)
and Sewerscape: a complete guide to ecology and adventuring in sewers, complete with 9 prestige classes, sewer feats, and sewer spells.
Hmmmmm....
Not to beat a dead horse, but Aurumvoraxes were updated on Wizard's website shortly after 3.0 came out... and I happen to love the little critters. Thought I would pass the info on.
Squid
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(Of course, if they just came out with 4e, we could have the cream of the crop in the core rules! No need for a dozen books, it would be concentrated into three volumes of core goodness. Huzzah!)
Huh? Come on - there will be loads of supplements to 4e too - that is the business model. I'm sure it will, come, it will probably be quite good, but it will annoy me nevetheless by invalidating my past purchases (to a greater or lesser extent).
Actually, more I think about it, it makes a great paranoid delusion. "Squirrels? They're Ninja. THEY send them to SPY on me. Here me, squirrel? I know WHAT you ARE!!!"
Actually, around here we have black squirrels, which my circle insistently refer to as Ninja Squirrels.