You've got to quit editting posts after I respond! ;-)
I thought about what I had posted and I didn't want to insult all those incredibly smart D&D youngsters whose opinion I respect, so I went back and added that in...sorry.
I generally try not to throw around aged based authority, but was more tossing it back at the OP to make the point that his years playing did not somehow give him additional insight into this product.
Yeah, I knew that's what you were intending and your statement wasn't aimed at everyone. I know a few people who have 20 years experience at something and then there's those who have 1 year of experience 20 times, if you know what I mean.
Well I bought one, and frankly I like it. All the stuff I expected to hate is there--though not as many maps and modules as I had thought there would be.
The one thing I will chant over and over until I die is this however: NEVER omit the such-n-such in Faerun/such-n-such in Eberron stuff. Where they have it I'm amazed by how helpful it is and in the listings where they omit it (usually the coolest creatures that I have the hardest time pegging where they'd fit) I find myself shaking my fists at the heavens.
That's the magic of D&D. Look at White Wolf sometime. They have tried to do monster entries before (Scarred Lands excluded--whose MM books are great stuff) and it's never been better than fiery eagle or bear made of dirt. Their settings have no air to breathe because there's like only three real badguys per setting. Not my beloved game. There are hundreds, and on a good day, most of them are real societies with their own motives and agendas. I flip through any of my Monster Manuals and could practacally stick my finger on a page and generate a kick butt story around it. Example--I've been in the market for a grand high pubah badguy for my Epic Forgotten Realms campaign wherein all of dragonkind find themselves on the edge of annihilation to be wrought by the incarnation of Yurtrus in the body of a dracolich, a vile plaguebearing undead whose breath weapon will be a contagion that will kill all dragons. I needed a big villain, and there in the MMIII was the Death Giant, a race of forsaken creatures once brothers to the Netherese who entered into a devil's deal to escape destruction by the phaerimm--and in his case was raw about the giants having been torn down as a young creator race by the dragons and now scratching around in the rocks, having lost two nations he loved--and having become a lich/warlock and enacted a plan these last centuries to eradicate them all.
I find stuff like that all the time!
As much as I'd like to think I was as young and as hip (do people still say hip?) as Saern is I'm right there in the low thirties and have been GMing since '84. Though by the same token I am still kid free. Well, at least as far as I know.
;)
GGG
It was a subtle poke at your comment earlier this week where you said that you bought Dungeon #114 at age 13....I figured it was either sarcasm or a typo, LOL.
I forgot which thread topic that was, but I was puzzled at first, then realized your subtle humor (or a loose finger poke that replaced the "3" with the "1")
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I wasn't aware of the deviation from the old "format" but between family, career, and other hobbies having prebuilt encounters may be handy. As such I have ordered it, when I have read it I will proffer and opinion, if I can be arsed to :)
As for drow ninjas well, you might recoil from the concept, but I saw people do something similar when drow first became a playable race in the original Unearthed Arcana :) Give it a year or so and you won't bat an eyelid. I believe this moving forward and adaptation/evolution is called progress. Without it we'd still be in caves knapping flint to hunt wooly rhino's to offer in appeasement to GGG :)
As for people confusing disagreeing with an opinion and insulting people instead, or appointing oneself as a spokesperson for a generation, or intuitive subliminal market knowledge, it is nice to see it still going on only insofar as it gives Sebastian a way to string people up by their own patards :) The internet, and forums specifically, are merely a soapbox for opinions. Facts, or truth, are very rarely expressed here :) Of course that opens up the debate on the nature of truth, and that would be threadjacking so don't :)
Have fun, play nice kids :)
It was a subtle poke at your comment earlier this week where you said that you bought Dungeon #114 at age 13....I figured it was either sarcasm or a typo, LOL.
I forgot which thread topic that was, but I was puzzled at first, then realized your subtle humor (or a loose finger poke that replaced the "3" with the "1")
Did I? It must have been the "Wow what Cover" thread. What I meant to say was Dragon 114, which if you will notice encompasses nearly every bad gamer stereotype in one every fell swoop in the form of a naked demon worshipping, big-chested witch-momma. And you thought Baphomet was bad.
Not the hair!
Johnny Bravo GGG
PS you se this is what 4hour of sllep will do to me. what was this thread about? Oh yeah! That reminds me, I've got stuff to do today.
PPS No, really that was the first draft of that line (the first PS). I was going to go back and correct it, but figured "what the heck." Then I went and posted it on the wrong board. ;\
Baphomet no longer bothers me. His publicist called my PR staff and we did lunch at Chesty's Tea Room earlier last week and we're good.
Take a break, Matt......my little crystal ball is telling me you're working too hard.
Without it we'd still be in caves knapping flint to hunt wooly rhino's to offer in appeasement to GGG :)
We are well-past the wooly rhino stage. Therapy dontcha know. Now it's all hot-looking nubile elf and human virgins. Send a postcard-sized picture of the virgin you think is worthy of our attention along with a SASE to The Third Cave on the Right, Next to the Ruined Settlement, Middle of Nowhere. If your virgin is selected you will have exactly one week from the time of notification to to have your virgin bound and dressed in clean, white, translucent-when-wet rags to a large pole on the outskirts of your community elsewise we shall raze said community to the ground. Your virgin will appear on a provocative Dragon or Dungeon cover spread, daring enough that people will write in to complain about it or praise it. This happens once every six monthes in both magazines after which time, we toss the virgin out having realized that the relationship is smothering us and that we want to see other virgins.
...that would be threadjacking so don't :)
The sheer unmitigated gall of some people!
We are not amused,
The Great Green God
Yeah, I can spend 5 to 10 minutes thinking about a sample encounter, but sometimes I draw a blank. Unfortuntately, sometimes I draw a blank in front of my players. Sometimes I don't want to make them wait 5 to 10 minutes while I come up with something.
Gotta keep the game moving. I suppose it's a lot better having "wasted" pages of leveled monsters/npcs then to completely draw a blank and kill the mood while you fumble through the DMG or MM.
Well, this officially rivals Magic of Incarnum for "Worst 3.5 supplement ever printed."
Personally, I liked Magic of Incarnum. The rules seemed balanced (and I have yet to hear any complaints about brokenness), The flavor was cool, and the layoout well-thought through. I actually LOVE this book.
In the same vein, I have yet to find a single D&D book that is a complete disaster. I mean, I'd even be able to use FR books, despite the fact that I don't either like or play FR.
I'm sure MMIV will be worth it to buy, even if you were unsatisfied.
Cheers,
Siberys
I started playing right when 2e came out, so I tend not to think of myself as a true graybeard.
I have been playing/DMing as long as Farewell, and I don't have (much) grey in my beard....
I liked Magic of Incarnum. It's playing a very big part in my campaign right now.
I flipped through MM IV and right now, it doesn't hold enough of my interest to get it - at the moment. I do like the expanded ecology section, as those are usually the tidbits that get my brain churning.
I have been playing/DMing as long as Farewell, and I don't have (much) grey in my beard....
LOL! I'm lucky! My job won't allow me to grow a beard, so I'm spared at least THAT blow to my ego. Plus, keeping my hair cut really short ameliorates the slow recession of my hairline. Now if I can just keep the silver out of my moustache...
LOL! I'm lucky! My job won't allow me to grow a beard, so I'm spared at least THAT blow to my ego. Plus, keeping my hair cut really short ameliorates the slow recession of my hairline. Now if I can just keep the silver out of my moustache...
Who said they let me grow a beard? Judges get all huffy about it everytime I go into the courtroom. I guess only judges get to have beards, to make them look older and wiser than everyone else in front of the bar...
Hmm.... I've been playing D&D since 1977, and running D&D since 1980. I am currently running two campaigns, (Age of Worms and Red Hand of Doom,) and contemplating a third. I can go on and on here, but you get the idea.
Is the MMIV a good book? I think so. There are several things I would have changed, (eliminating the four stand alone maps comes to mind,) and there are plenty of things I would keep. (Spawn of Tiamat are going to be very useful to me once I continue RHoD past the end of the supermodule.)
I agree wholeheartedly with Sebastian. Expressing such statements as "lazy" or implying that anyone who likes or uses this product is inferior to you is plain old arrogance and elitism, and has no place here. Complaints are fine, constructive criticism is fine, thinly veiled insults are not.
I, for one, find the new format and the stat block a much needed boon. I don't have the time or energy anymore to pour out stat blocks and creations at a whim, so anything that's been done for me already is a great help.
/sarcasm For that matter, aren't new monsters just a crutch? After all, the work is being done for you... does that mean WoTC is telling you what to do? /endsarcasm
Squid
Apparently you don't buy them for the same reasons everyone else does considering how many people have posted on this thread saying that they would buy this book for the lairs and the statted monsters. Maybe the majority of people purchase the monster manuals for quantity, I can't say for sure having not done any market research. If you would care to disclose the source of your information about "everyone" and their preferences, I'd be happy to hear more.
In person, I have yet to find someone that liked MM4. All the ones I asked said they skimmed it and put it right back on the shelf. As for on the Internet, I have seen a majority of posters on a number of RPG boards, WotC and ENWorld included, say they disliked MM4 for many of the same reasons.
My most experienced player thinks that any step in the direction of making the game easier to run and better designed is a good step.
So you mean my players and I should find it ok that we're paying the same price for D&D books yet not getting the quantity we were happy to have been receiving from the products of 2000 through 2005? Yeah, we should just roll over and submit like dogs, shouldn't we? /end sarcasm
I completely agree. They should print the books in greek. Or better yet, Klingon. That way only the most hard core geeks can play D&D. Then we can separate out all those posers and want-a-bes that enjoy different types of roleplaying tools. It's too bad we didn't have these thoughts before 3e came out. We could've kept the even more complicated rules of 1e and done away with such modern niceties as balanced encounters, guidelines for encounter difficulties, and other DM tools. If a DM can't pick the game up, he doesn't deserve to play. And if you don't have time to put a game together due to a family, a career, etc, you also don't deserve to play.
They can easily do an "expansion." What you do is you expand a book a few dozen pages to include this stuff in there. Not keep the page count the same and include it in there, thus lowering the amount of material we're receiving. And especially not decrease the page count AND include that stuff in there (which is what they're doing now---160 page and 224 page books? 5-6 pages for PrC? 4 pages for one monster?)
Like you could have spent 5 to 10 minutes thinking of how to post without being condescending? Yeah, I can spend 5 to 10 minutes thinking about a sample encounter, but sometimes I draw a blank. Unfortuntately, sometimes I draw a blank in front of my players. Sometimes I don't want to make them wait 5 to 10 minutes while I come up with something. Sometimes I like an idea of the typical situation in which a monster is encountered to give me a baseline. I aspire to be so gifted as to be able to come up with something clever and intelligent off the cuff at a moment's notice, but as of yet, it's still an aspiration.
Dude, you take the monster and you simply, I dunno, have it attack! Or speak! Or take a deuce behind the nearby tree. I really don't see the point of a WHOLE set of paragraphs telling you how to do this? Are they trying to introduce brand new players to the game who don't know squat? That should've been done when 3E came out looong ago. They're doing this now, after 6 years? I could've swore their website had TONS of guidelines and information similiar to this, I could've swore message boards had the help a new gamer would need, and maybe I am seeing things, but I am quite sure there's 3rd party products or Dragon/Dungeon to help out too?
And if only hard sales data penetrated the self-centered logic of persons who think they speak for the entire D&D market and not just their own petty preferences. I have no idea how well the book will sell. I know I like it, I know I find it useful, but I'll be darned if I can say that I know how roleplaying products "should" be made. Possessing such a super-human sense, you "should" consider publishing a game.
I never said I knew anything about their sales, I said I am hoping they turn out horrible. It's a wish of mine that doesn't need belittling from you.
Wow. 10 years. I'm impressed. I've been DMing for nearly 20 years. F2K, who's also stated that he likes the MMIV, has probably been DMing for longer than I've been alive. I don't understand why you can't understand that people have different preferences and that some of us enjoy the products like this. I really don't understand why you can't express your opinion without insulting us in the process.
No I do understand how frail the gaming community is becoming, in my opinion (remember that phrase, don't come at me with a chainsaw now). I do understand people would love to pay full price for less quantity of material if it means they can juggle their personal life around while still enjoying a session of D&D. Does the other side of the coin have to suffer for it? Yes, they should. Under those conditions, then I'd agree with everyone about MM4's changes.
However, the difference in this situation is those that enjoy WotC's "work is done for you" formats didn't lose out on anything prior to the changes. No one really did. But now the veterans or those that began when 3E began are losing out on the changes. At least (pay attention now) that's what I believe. It means squat and it's only something I felt like sharing.
What I don't understand is why you have to belittle my opinions and make false accusations about them? Have I done that to anyone here? Not really. Please do not jump to your own conclusions about me or what I said until you have fully grasped what it is I am saying. Maybe you should wonder why someone such as myself is even stating such opinions instead of thinking there's something wrong with me.
I think this discussion would befit from a reduction in the number of sarcastic caricatures being thrown around by both sides.
I realize this thread is inflammatory by its nature (a quick glance at the title confirms that) but there's no need to mock the other side to make your point.
Please tone it down a little people.
Heh. It's gotten pretty vicious in here. I've stated already that I'll pass on this book, but in case I've been insulting in any of my opinions, I apologize.
You can't please everyone all of the time, as the saying goes. I guess for me, I'm usually very pleased with all of the "big" books WotC puts out and was very disheartened at what I found in MM 4. For me, it wasn't worth the purchase price since I have the time and good resources to come up with all of what I see as "filler" in it. I'm sure it's helpful in the same way as someone coming to take care of your yard for you. In my case, I take great pleasure and pride in tending to my lawn myself and trying to keep it looking better than all of my neighbors'. Hope that analogy works.
So, while it's a great new format for some, it's not altogether welcomed by others (like me) if it means less quantity of new and revamped old stuff (meaning monsters from older editions that haven't reappeared yet).
I'm going to chalk this one up as yet another pointless money making venture by our GH-ignoring friends at Wizards of the Coast.So pointless in fact they should stop printing things. Period. I mean really, who needs money in America now anyhow? And if they actually do need money then I would suggest they get real jobs in marketing, or business administration that's where the big bucks are to be made, not in fringe game publishing.
GGG
In reference to Sebastian's point about my first statement, I was not factoring in all the various Monstrous compendiums of 2nd edition in my statement. I only bought one out of all of them. If TSR/WoTC had combined them, they would obviously have had one additional and maybe two monster manuals.
At some point, you run out of 'worthwhile monsters' to create. How many different types of dwarves, species of dragons, ridiculous aberations can a world contain, and do we need each one described in grotesque detail to the point where we know the most mundane and unnecessary information about them?
In reference to the above post written by (GGG), (which incidentally I'll be starting an anger management therapy group soon, and I'll be saving a spot for You); when producing a core product like a monster manual, there are certain expectations that need to be "lived up to" when you're asking people for 35 dollars for the book. WoTC failed to deliver. Your rebuttal was spiteful and vindictive, and lacks an intelligent or adequate response to what I expressed.
Although I was critical at the time when 2nd edition brought all of its diverse campaign settings, I see that in retrospect, it did not dilute the core quality of the game. I believe 3.5 and all of its rulebook enhancements & supplements are slowly doing so. Some of my players come to the game with no less than 15-20 'Core' hardback books, want to make use of a rule in one of them, and then can't even recall in which book the rule resides. To adequately implement all the 'rulebooks' that are now available for purchase is beyond my capabilities to recall every optional rule presented for use. Nor do I want to take the time to read every book in detail only to rule out most of what my players have paid money for hoping to use.
I recognize that 'business is business', but I would hope WoTC would concentrate on producing QUALITY products. However given that most companies eventually become bloated when things are good, they then need to produce QUANTITY to keep up with paying everyone's salary on the payroll. I judge the MM4 to be designed primarily to achieve this purpose.
And to add to Steve Greer's post immediately preceeding mine, there are numerous creature stats from 1st and 2nd edition D&D that have NOT seen conversion to 3rd edition (or have only made it into Paizo or Open Game License/3rd party sources. These are what SHOULD be in the MM4. These are what will encourage me to purchase a MM5, should there be one, and I think it's safe to assume there will be.
I have been playing/DMing as long as Farewell, and I don't have (much) grey in my beard....
I started playing right when 2e came out, so I tend not to think of myself as a true graybeard.
I think I screwed up Sebastian's quote--HE's been playing since 2e came out, I've been playing since 1980 (13 years old at that time).
I've got greying hair now, but it's not too noticeable yet. What bother me is that I have a hard time losing weight as I'm approaching 40.
I wonder how much vigorous discussion the 1e and 2e books would have generated had a relatively anonymous and instantaneous method of communication been available back then?
And to add to Steve Greer's post immediately preceeding mine, there are numerous creature stats from 1st and 2nd edition D&D that have NOT seen conversion to 3rd edition (or have only made it into Paizo or Open Game License/3rd party sources. These are what SHOULD be in the MM4. These are what will encourage me to purchase a MM5, should there be one, and I think it's safe to assume there will be.
I hope so...and it won't bother me if the follow the current format, although going back to the old format is fine with me as well--although the new stat blocks have grown on me and I hope they keep them (just don't let them spill over a page that I have to flip over in the middle of a battle).
I'm very easy to please, obviously--one of my faults, I suppose. However, there are many books I won't buy--such as the aforementioned Magic of Incarnum, all the Eberron and FR add-ons, PH II (losing that fight slowly, though), the "Complete" series of books, the Draconomicon and many others. Even the books I disliked at first read (Heroes of Battle) grew on me as I delved further--perhaps the critics of MM IV will find that the book grows on them as well after they've given it some time and a chance. My advice to the critics is to do just that and if you still think you got shafted, sell it on e-bay.
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I think I screwed up Sebastian's quote--HE's been playing since 2e came out, I've been playing since 1980 (13 years old at that time).
Do you remember....about what month in 1980?
Heathansson(younger chronologically by 2 years, yet possibly greyer in beard, than f2k).(edit) Dude, after reading higher up in this post,...just jokes, bro.
I never actually thought I would need Icy Hot, or about 5 other products I'm not even going to mention. Wish those potions of longevity were real.
I wonder how much vigorous discussion the 1e and 2e books would have generated had a relatively anonymous and instantaneous method of communication been available back then?
Heh, thats the question isn't it. Everytime I hear someone talk about something they loved or thought was better in 1st or 2nd edition, I wonder how opinions might have been affected if there had been more access to message boards, etc.
Then again, I can remember some pretty heated debates in Forum in Dragon Magazine back in the day . . .
So pointless in fact they should stop printing things. Period. I mean really, who needs money in America now anyhow? And if they actually do need money then I would suggest they get real jobs in marketing, or business administration that's where the big bucks are to be made, not in fringe game publishing.GGG
In reference to the above post written by (GGG), (which incidentally I'll be starting an anger management therapy group soon, and I'll be saving a spot for You); when producing a core product like a monster manual, there are certain expectations that need to be "lived up to" when you're asking people for 35 dollars for the book. WoTC failed to deliver. Your rebuttal was spiteful and vindictive, and lacks an intelligent or adequate response to what I expressed.
Oh come now you can do better than that. :) Spiteful? I'm sorry if it sounded that way it was meant more in terms of turning the argument:
I'm going to chalk this one up as yet another pointless money making venture by our GH-ignoring friends at Wizards of the Coast.
...which sounded like it was getting a tad rantish (GH-ignoring?) on its ear. Rereading it I would say it was adequate enough but perhaps a bit rough without inflection, and for that I apologise. I certainly wasn't angry, just over the top.
Is it pointless to make money in Western society? No. Does money help support our fringe hobby? Yes. So is Monster Manual IV pointless? I would say not. I'm not positive I'll buy it, but I'm sure there are folks who want some quick stated multi-level "normal monsters" or a more ecology focused Monster Manual rather than the "Here's a Plasm. I wonder if anyone will come up with something cool for it to do?" model.
As for the dollar cost, hard covers and relatively low print runs will do that to a book's price.
The (hopefully) more adequate,
GGG
I wonder how much vigorous discussion the 1e and 2e books would have generated had a relatively anonymous and instantaneous method of communication been available back then?
Heh, thats the question isn't it. Everytime I hear someone talk about something they loved or thought was better in 1st or 2nd edition, I wonder how opinions might have been affected if there had been more access to message boards, etc.
Then again, I can remember some pretty heated debates in Forum in Dragon Magazine back in the day . . .
Sure, but they were tempered by the fact that you had to mail a letter and have it edited by the staff, as opposed to here where we can all just spout off whatever comes to mind....plus gamers tend to be intellectually advanced models of human, with a highly developed sense of sarcasm, wit and opinion, plus a rather high amount of self-confidence....give them instant communication and I'm surprised we don't have more flame wars.
To be honest--this is the only messageboard or internet forum I read daily. I've never even checked Wizards and I've posted on ENWorld once. D&D is about the only topic I enjoy discussing on the Internet and I enjoy discussing it here and with you all. I once subscribed to a medical advice messageboard for my son's medical condition and while I ran into many supportive and intelligent people, there were also some there with "Munchhausen by Proxy" problems...and it was generally too depressing, especially when people who posted there had their children die from the same medical problem my son has.
So, I like Paizo's boards--if someone discusses something negative here, it's rarely because of something really bad in the real world. If we argue here, it's about as important as a fart in a windstorm, because we're talking about a game. It's relaxing to discuss things that don't mean anything important with really smart people--I like that--I don't get to do that at work for sure and my gaming group really doesn't want to talk about D&D all that much (and I actually wouldnt' really want to take the time to talk about the things we discuss here in a real conversation either).
I hope I'm not the only one when I say that if I ever run into somebody in real life that I've had a flame war with, I'll smile in embarassment and hold out my hand for a handshake while apologizing for anything impolite I may have said on the Internet.
Sure, but they were tempered by the fact that you had to mail a letter and have it edited by the staff, as opposed to here where we can all just spout off whatever comes to mind....plus gamers tend to be intellectually advanced models of human, with a highly developed sense of sarcasm, wit and opinion, plus a rather high amount of self-confidence....give them instant communication and I'm surprised we don't have more flame wars.
Shhh. I think they are talking about me...
GGG
This thread is probably the most attention that MM4 has garnered since it went to press.
As ever,
ACE
I wonder how much vigorous discussion the 1e and 2e books would have generated had a relatively anonymous and instantaneous method of communication been available back then?
Heh, thats the question isn't it. Everytime I hear someone talk about something they loved or thought was better in 1st or 2nd edition, I wonder how opinions might have been affected if there had been more access to message boards, etc.
Then again, I can remember some pretty heated debates in Forum in Dragon Magazine back in the day . . .
A lot of it may have to do with the nostalgia factor.
I remember vividly avidly buying my first issue of Dragon magazine (issue 87), the basic edition boxed set, getting the 1st Ed. Player's Handbook (the new cover with the wizard on it) for X-Mas, buying the DMG, and (especially) my first module and my favorite rulebook of all time: 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana, crappy binding and all.
Are these the BEST products ever produced for the D&D/AD&D games? I bet not. Are they my favorites? Yup. For nostaliga's sake.
And for me, does anything printed since them stack up? Yes and no. Yes in that I am using my 3.5 PH, DMG, etc. every day and the other older books are packed in storage. No in that I have never felt such rushes when buying new books, magazines, modules, etc. for a game.
I imagine some gamer - new to the game, probably - will pick up MM IV and feel the same rush I felt when I saw and bought Unearthed Arcana. For that gamer, I feel wonderful. Welcome to the magic times!
For those of us with more jaded/mature tastes, we can take it or leave it as we do any books that come out.
Wow. I couldn't disagree with the title of this thread more even if it involved baby eating and squashed kittens. MM4 is the first MM that I have paid full price for (well $42 Can at my FLGS minus 10%). All of the others I bought in second hand shops (except MM2 which I never found there and have zero desire to own). MM4, for me, was excellent value for the money and I see me using this as often as the MM1.
Wow. I couldn't disagree with the title of this thread more even if it involved baby eating and squashed kittens. MM4 is the first MM that I have paid full price for (well $42 Can at my FLGS minus 10%). All of the others I bought in second hand shops (except MM2 which I never found there and have zero desire to own). MM4, for me, was excellent value for the money and I see me using this as often as the MM1.
One of the many things I love about Canada are the many used book stores and gaming stores which carry second-hand gaming items at very good prices.
And with the US-Canada exchange rate, it makes it all the better!
Ah, Canada (Peterborough, ONT. mainly), how I miss thee!
I wasnt really interested in this one until I read some of the posts here about what's in the book. Granted it may not qualify as a good MM but it does sound like it might be worth owning.
This thread is probably the most attention that MM4 has garnered since it went to press.As ever,
ACE
Too true (and too funny as well ;).
GGG
As an addendum to my previous post, here are a few monsters that I have anxiosly waited to see re-released in a new monster manual:
Quickling
Leprechaun
Brownie
Trapper
Nilbog
Giant Troll (I know I could just resize one, but that's not the point)
Two-headed Troll (sure, slap a multi-headed template on from Savage Species, but again that's not the point)
Bookworm
Rot Grub (not sure if this one hasn't already got the treatment)
Modron
Revenant
Poltergeist
Ju Ju Zombie
Magnesium Spirit
There's so much more, but I have no books in front of me. Point is, tons of older monsters that could have been re-introduced along with the new.
As an addendum to my previous post, here are a few monsters that I have anxiosly waited to see re-released in a new monster manual:
Quickling
Leprechaun
Brownie
Trapper
Nilbog
Giant Troll (I know I could just resize one, but that's not the point)
Two-headed Troll (sure, slap a multi-headed template on from Savage Species, but again that's not the point)
Bookworm
Rot Grub (not sure if this one hasn't already got the treatment)
Modron
Revenant
Poltergeist
Ju Ju Zombie
Magnesium SpiritThere's so much more, but I have no books in front of me. Point is, tons of older monsters that could have been re-introduced along with the new.
I agree with you on the quicklings and brownies . . . giant troll I think is just a half-troll giant now, but hey . . . two headed trolls, revenants, and Ju Ju Zombies have all been covered in FR supplements (I know, its not satisfying for many to have this answer).
While we now have a confirmed comment that affirms the continued existance of modrons, I think there is a LOT of feeling against them at WOTC that they won't be statted any more, but I could be wront. Reading through the interveiw about the Planar Handbook on the WOTC forums definately seemed to indicate this.
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I agree with you on the quicklings and brownies . . . giant troll I think is just a half-troll giant now, but hey . . . two headed trolls, revenants, and Ju Ju Zombies have all been covered in FR supplements (I know, its not satisfying for many to have this answer).
While we now have a confirmed comment that affirms the continued existance of modrons, I think there is a LOT of feeling against them at WOTC that they won't be statted any more, but I could be wront. Reading through the interveiw about the Planar Handbook on the WOTC forums definately seemed to indicate this.
More specifically, Two-Headed Trolls and Ju Ju Zombies can be found in Unapproachable East. Revenants are found in Monsters of Faerun. If you don't want to go the Half-Troll route, you might look at the Mountain Troll for a giant troll.
Modrons got an "official" 3.0 update online -- the link is http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a
Hope that that helps.
Bill
I had a feeling that some of the ones I mentioned might have been revised somewhere. I'm tempted to unpack my old books and make a much bigger list, but I doubt it's worth the trouble. You either got the point or you didn't.
BTW, Bill and KnightErrantJR,thanks for the info.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I didn't know that anyone actually used Ju Ju Zombies. I figured they were one of those creatures that no one really used due to the very high mockery factor.
"A what zombie? Are you kidding me? I'm getting attacked by an undead gummi creature? Seriously, next time I roll a natural 1 on my Knowledge: Religion check, can't you just say I failed?"
I can't say that I have a great deal of interest in seeing a conversion of any of the monsters listed above. To me, they're either more fey (brownies), more teenage mutant ninja animals (rakasta), or too weird to really be statted (nilbog). The modrons I have a marginal interest, but that's mostly due to a lingering loyalty to PS rather than an interest in the monster themself (they're really sort of lame - the sort of monsters I would expect to fight in a Sesame Street rpg).
Though to be fair, I would've been equally unimpressed by the thought of a 3.5 conversion of the froghemoth had it not been used to such great effect in the Champions Belt. I guess my feeling is that monsters that are so specific really need an adventure to showcase them. Just slapping them into a monster book doesn't do them justice.
Just slapping them into a monster book doesn't do them justice.
It takes a DM to give them justice.
Handled in different ways, dragons can be dealt severe injustice in someone's eyes.
I didn't know that anyone actually used Ju Ju Zombies. I figured they were one of those creatures that no one really used due to the very high mockery factor.
"A what zombie? Are you kidding me? I'm getting attacked by an undead gummi creature? Seriously, next time I roll a natural 1 on my Knowledge: Religion check, can't you just say I failed?"
I can't say that I have a great deal of interest in seeing a conversion of any of the monsters listed above. To me, they're either more fey (brownies), more teenage mutant ninja animals (rakasta), or too weird to really be statted (nilbog). The modrons I have a marginal interest, but that's mostly due to a lingering loyalty to PS rather than an interest in the monster themself (they're really sort of lame - the sort of monsters I would expect to fight in a Sesame Street rpg).
Though to be fair, I would've been equally unimpressed by the thought of a 3.5 conversion of the froghemoth had it not been used to such great effect in the Champions Belt. I guess my feeling is that monsters that are so specific really need an adventure to showcase them. Just slapping them into a monster book doesn't do them justice.
I've changed my mind. You just made it worth unpacking the books. Here. Find some reasons to dismiss these ones, too. More monsters I'd like to have seen reprinted rather than pretty maps and "expanded" encounter information:
FROM THE ORIGINAL MONSTER MANUAL
Ear Seeker
Floating Eye
Ki-Rin (maybe it's in a book I don't own)
Lamprey
Lurker Above
Piercer (again, maybe it's already out there)
Giant (dire) Porcupine
Portuguese Man-O-War
Giant (dire) Ram
Shedu
Giant (dire) Skunk
Slithering Tracker
Giant Slug
Amphisbaena (Giant) Snake
Strangle Weed
Su-Monster (man, I loved these!)
Giant (dire) Turtle
FROM THE ORGINAL MONSTER MANUAL II
Atomie
Aurumvorax
Basidirond
Mobat
Slicer Beetle
Boobrie
Buckawn
Choke Creeper
Crysmal
Crystal Ooze
Daemons! (All of 'em)
Dracolisk (has this been done?)
Giant Dragonfly
Dragon Horse
Drelb
Executioner's Hood
Foo Creature
Gloomwing
Jelly Mustard (delicious!)
Kampfult
Korred
Mud-Man
Obliviax
Quasi-Elemental Lightning
Pyrolisk
Quickwood
Olive Slime
Squealer
Transposer
Xaren
A much better job has been done converting Fiend Folio monsters, but there are still a lot that could be revised. Unfortunately, my stroll down memory lane with my old books is taking longer than I thought, so I'll just leave it at that and mention that there were oodles of choice ones untouched in the Monstrous Compendiums Vols. I - IV.
What? No lava children?
GGG
PS Ki-rin and Foo stuff I think appear in Oriental Adventures, while the Manual of the Planes online extras might have included the multifacetted modrons.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've changed my mind. You just made it worth unpacking the books. Here. Find some reasons to dismiss these ones, too. More monsters I'd like to have seen reprinted rather than pretty maps and "expanded" encounter information:
I'm not sure what I can say. I've never used any of those monsters except the dracolisk (i.e., a half-dragon basalisk) and the piercer (which was lame even then). I thought Daemons = Yugoloths and had been converted.
Otherwise, that list stands as strong evidence that the most worthwhile monsters have already been converted.
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I'm entering this discussion late, but admit that I was highly interested in the MMIV. I guess I straddle the fence, in some ways- I adore having hundreds of new monsters to flesh out my campaigns, often finding that each new book will provide me with each at least 20+ moments where the "perfect creature" for the plot was sitting between its covers.
That being said, I find the small "nudges" that the ecology & sample encounter sections give me are worth as much as an entire new monster- each little block has given me moments that change my thinking from "Ok, how am I going to even fit one of these bastards in?" to "Ah! That's a great way to think of them, I'll just do this instead..."
The sample statblock of the Redspawn Firebelcher has already done wonders for my Red Hand of Doom designs, simply by describing a fashion in which the party might encounter the beast, beyond a "random encounter table."
*Shrug* I honestly think that both sides of this argument have reasonable points, because we're all just looking to get "bang for our bucks." For some, that means lots of monsters with brief background/descriptions, letting them sift out their favorites out of a wide selection. For others, it means a high attention to detail and extensive measures to make each monster usable for the GM.
My sense is the new system is far from being a fluke, given its presence in two books now (FCI & MMIV) and I hope those that are currently dissappointed can find happiness in the future, despite current and understandable frustrations.
Steve, I've tried to ID a few more of your monsters, just so you know where they can be found.
FROM THE ORIGINAL MONSTER MANUAL
Shedu {Fiend Folio}
Giant (dire) Turtle {Dire Tortoise in Sandstorm}
FROM THE ORGINAL MONSTER MANUAL II
Basidirond {Dragon Mag. Demonomicon of Zuggtomoy}
Crysmal {Crystal creatures? I think in Expanded Psionics}
Dragon Horse {The Dragonel {sp?} from Draconomicon seems to fit this description}
Quasi-Elemental Lightning {Storm Elemental? If so, MM3}
Olive Slime {Recent Dungeon, Caverns of the Ooze Lord}
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Well, way I see it, one of the guys who writes these dang adventures wants more critters statted up.
And, no offense Seb, but you DID say you LIKED the presentation of the froghemoth in that adventure; would it be a reach to say that in the absence of that adventure, you would be here touting the ludicrosity of aforementioned beast?
It'd be nice to give those guys ready-statted beasties. THEY'LL slap together the adventures.
Heathansson(a critter in every pot)Guvner of Nod
I'm not sure what I can say. I've never used any of those monsters except the dracolisk (i.e., a half-dragon basalisk) and the piercer (which was lame even then). I thought Daemons = Yugoloths and had been converted.Otherwise, that list stands as strong evidence that the most worthwhile monsters have already been converted.
Many yugoloths have been converted, others (gacholoth, hydroloth, dergholoth) have not.
"Worthwhile" is subjective, isn't it? I have no use whatsoever for skullcrusher ogres, forestkith goblins, and other barely-variant standard creatures. But I've seen other folks like 'em. I can definitely use gacholoths, quicklings, etc.
I'm with Steve...keep updating the classics. You can still have truly "new" creatures as well, but include at least some conversions for those of us that remember them. And for those that don't remember them, they'll be just as "new" as dragonspawn, etc.
I can't understand the value of not including updated monsters from previous versions. First, much of the work is already done for them (flavor text, basic abilities, etc.) Add that to the built-in nostalgia factor, and it seems like a no-brainer for inclusion.
I've changed my mind. You just made it worth unpacking the books. Here. Find some reasons to dismiss these ones, too. More monsters I'd like to have seen reprinted rather than pretty maps and "expanded" encounter information:
I'm not sure what I can say. I've never used any of those monsters except the dracolisk (i.e., a half-dragon basalisk) and the piercer (which was lame even then). I thought Daemons = Yugoloths and had been converted.
Otherwise, that list stands as strong evidence that the most worthwhile monsters have already been converted.
What? You're not going to bag on the Giant Skunk?
BTW, just because you've never used it, does that mean you never will? That's awfully closed-minded. On that same thought, I distinctly remember not using quite a few creatures out of the old 1E/2E books that I thought were extremely lame... Ack! Phooey! But ya know, when they reappeared as a v.3x monster, some game designer had taken those stinkers and made them absolutely kick ass and lots of fun to use in my games!I'm not going to bother posting here again. Sebastian you're obviously super-glued to your opinion. Only universal solvent can help you now. You're happy with fewer new monsters and more details to older ones. You like the sample encounters and maps. Me? I like all of that stuff, but it was not welcomed in a monster manual for me. Perhaps an online supplement or an altogether separate published product that would still turn a profit.
As far as "strong evidence that the most worthwhile monsters have already been converted" goes, what evidence? That you didn't care for them? What kind of evidence is that? The evidence I see is that there are obviously tons more worthwhile creatures that are being plucked from the old books and coverted here and there, never more than a couple at a time (Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Lords of Madness, etc.). However, those books are only partially dedicated to creatures, therefore they get a very limited space in the books.
Now a monster manual, on the other hand, well, that's nothing BUT monsters. There are two reason I can see for the old critters that have not yet been revisited seeing conversion and republishing: 1) It got beat out by another that the designer converted, 2) Not enough space, we'll try to get that one next time. Case in point, the Yeti never made it in to Monster Manual (v.3.0 OR V.3.5) or Monster Manual II or Fiend Folio. But it did finally make into Frostburn. How about the Giant Vulture? Same thing, but it finally got reprinted in Sandstorm.
So, I guess I'll have to wait to see more get printed here and there in books like those, but it sure as hell would have been nice to them in a brand new monster manual.
I think the primary knock on the book from the original post is humanoids with character levels taking up space that otherwise would be an entirely new monster.
I agree - this is pretty much wasted space. The whole point of 3rd edition is how easy it is to advance creatures and add templates. (Given that computer programs and free excel sheets can do this in minutes doesn't help either.)
So it is unfortunate that I really like some of the stuff (evil elementals I read about in another thread) but am completely turned off by what can only be seen as 'filler' creatures.
Which means I will be taking a pass.