|
I graduated high school in 1986.
I was just curious: does roleplaying STILL carry that weird misunderstood stigma nowadays?
Well, it doesn't here and I don't think it ever really did. It was certainly considered geeky (and that still holds, though it guess that is fair to a large extent) but I never came across any problems at school, work, family or friends while being involved in RPGs. However, of course, the UK is a much less religious (or at least, overtly religious) place than the US, which probably explains why satanism and devil-worship were never considered serious risks (in fact, a fundamentalist Christian would be considered far weirder than a D&D enthusiast). In fact, the only time it was mentioned was at a university interview, along the lines of:
"I notice youplay roleplaying games."
"Yes."
(Slightly embarrassed) "You have never got involved with the devil-worship stuff?"
(Completely nonplussed) "Er, no."
"OK."
That was the first and last time the devil-worship thing came up in conversation in connection with RPGs, and the first time I had even heard about it. I'm 35, was 18 then.
Now, there is very little problem with it. I get teased a bit at work ("So, did the orcs attack from the north or east last night? Yuk yuk yuk.") but it is no problem, and my girlfriend is tolerant if uninterested. So, very mild geeky stigma, complete disinterest from a religious viewpoint.
I am sergeant (a.k.a “green parasite”) in the IDF and have the highest security clearance a soldier can get. Many of my friends are serious gamers and have very classified or responsible jobs in the IDF.
Stay safe over there; hopefully you guys will get your kidnapped soldiers back soon and the current conflict will wind down again. Keep your head down and your powder dry, as they say.
|
I graduated high school in 1986.
I was just curious: does roleplaying STILL carry that weird misunderstood stigma nowadays?
My son tried to start an RPG and/or D&D club in his public high school and couldn't do it - not acceptable material for a club. So his friends all joined the chess club and played D&D there with miniatures, which I guess looked enough like chess pieces.
|
|
D&D is a widely popular hobby with the American military as well. I think it has to do with mentally escaping reality for a few hours, which does a lot for keeping one's sanity.
There are people who consider it a 'children's game' and give strange looks when I talk about adventures at work, but it's never been a hostile thing nor has it affected my job. I'd estimate that about a third of my office plays online RPGs, which helps maintain a neutral atmosphere around gaming here.
I gamed a lot while I was in the military whenever we were on active duty. While in AIT at Ft. Sam Houston, I used to run a Top Secret game while on firewatch and on the weekends. About a quarter of my platoon played in that game, even the macho guys who wouldn't normally be caught dead playing RPGs--it was something cheap and fun to do....even when we were stateside and there were recreational opportunities--many of us didn't have a lot of money and RPGs were an inexpensive way to get away from it all. Heck, as an E-1 back in 1985 I made a whopping $480 a month--all paid in traveler's checks, 2/3 of which I mailed home to pay off my car, which I would need for college when I got home. (I was in the Reserves).
Stay safe over there; hopefully you guys will get your kidnapped soldiers back soon and the current conflict will wind down again. Keep your head down and your powder dry, as they say.
Thanks! Currently I am at the rear with the gear, but I'll give your greetings to my friends at the north who spend their time dodging rockets and watching A-team on an old T.V that is also dodging rockets. The T.V has uncanny dodge. They don’t.
Early in my gaming career; our group played a recreation center. We had to share the space with other groups of course and we played D&D, Runequest, Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, you name it.
One of the groups was a religious group, not sure what denomination but they often frequented the center the same time we did (except we stayed much later usually sometimes until they showed up the next day!)
We were peacable with them but one day one of them came over and said they were praying for our souls. We were very naughty after that. We decided it was time to go visit the nine hells and kick some devil butt. *chuckles*
The looks of horror were priceless as we chanted "We're coming to slay you Balzebub. They prayed even harder after that but there were more gamers than people in the group and we were gaining recruits simply from people coming by an asking us what were we playing.
I think it rubbed our religious friends the wrong way that we were gaining more people. They stopped visiting the rec center. I can only assume the found a different place to perform their ceremonies of worship.
Looking back, we're being jerks but at the time we found it presumptious and borderline offensive.
I come from that 80's crowd too. I don't brag about gaming nor do I hide it. Its not something that comes up in everyday conversation with non-gamers so its not a big worry. It is much more mainstream now especially with the success of LoTR.
A-Team? Ohboy....another 80's flashback....
I had some idiot cousins who tried to tell me it was "satan worshipping". (I am a christian btw, raised southern baptist)So I sat down with them at the time. I was in Highschool, and had just started playing with some friends. I sat down with my cousin, showed him the books and how to play. I said "well, now you understand it, is it still evil?" he said yes because some person said so. His parents had told my parents the same thing, so they asked me about it. They knew I was smart enough not do do anything bad or dangerous but they knew they had to ask. So I sat down with my dad and explained it to them both. They both looked at me and said "huh?" then dad said "well it sounds boring as hell to me, but it doesnt sound like satan worship,so I dont care if you play it or not. Just dont go wasting MY money on any damn books." My dad is not a fan of reading or education *rolls eyes* But anywho yeah they saw it the claims were pretty stupid.
My cousin one time said to me "There are demons in the game!!" and I said back "yes... and we are FIGHTING them you moron."
heh
Most of my friends are "closet nerds" and I am "opendly nerdy." I have a bright green shirt with "nerd" in painfully bright yellow on the chest. So that's where I'm coming from.
I remember getting our games club shut down at my private school because it was viewed with suspiscion. And this it at a non-denominational school!
The main problem most people have with it is that you can't really "win." There's no point in D&D where a myconid comes up to you with a note saying, "congratulations, you've beaten the game!" Most people have trouble getting their heads around this.
My one roomie at Temple loved D&D when I introduced him, cause he was an actor/baseball player, so he got to act and act out he-man fantasies. My other roomie was mystified, "what stops you from saying, 'okay, I have a chainsaw that can kill god?'" and I said, "well, there's no challenge, therefore no fun." He was puzzled.
My third roomie said, 'okay, whatever Pomper, I'm gonna go get laid,"
"Me too," I said, "choosy girls choose geeks!
At work, I co-exist with a bunch of uneducated christian hillbillies, so I got a lot of flak for a period of time until I explained what the game was all about. Like most fears and hatreds, it stemmed from ignorance.
If someone burned all my books?
I might have to hospitalize them.
D&D is a great icebreaker when you're in the military, especially if you're a kid. We were stationed overseas for a while, and it was a great way to get to know other people.
I've explained what RPG is like to Those That Don't Know Its Way, and these are the points I always make:
1.) There is no clear "winning."
2.) Roleplaying is acting.
3.) The Game/Dungeon Master/Mistress sets the stage and lets the player (you) help tell the story.
Yeah, I'm just looking forward to getting out of college and getting hired by 30-somethings who played D&D, while the smeg-chuffing dolts who made fun of them clean our crap off of the toilets.
Again, nerd pride.
Just thought this'd be an appropriate place to post this. I'm gonna try to seed the next generation of gamers. Here's my 5.5. month old daughter Katerina paging through my newly arrived Monster Manual IV. I love her so much to let her crease the pages like that. No one else can do that and not get a talking-to.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/189498161/
BTW, check out the rest of the pics and tell me what you think
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/
Just thought this'd be an appropriate place to post this. I'm gonna try to seed the next generation of gamers. Here's my 5.5. month old daughter Katerina paging through my newly arrived Monster Manual IV. I love her so much to let her crease the pages like that. No one else can do that and not get a talking-to.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/189498161/
BTW, check out the rest of the pics and tell me what you think
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/
awww shes a cutie pie!!! My fiance will die when she gets back from her sisters and see this pic. Shes in my DnD game. (I know I'm very very very lucky!!!) You should get your daughter some of those big stuffed soft dice so she can practice her rolling technique early! heh heh.
You should get your daughter some of those big stuffed soft dice so she can practice her rolling technique early! heh heh.
Already got em. As an aside, my GF and I had a pair of fuzzy "sex dice" and we had some visitors, and hid the offending items you don't want family members seeing, but we forgot the dice. So then comes the question from the 12 year old-cute-as-a-button-girl, "why does that dice say, 'ass?' The other one says, 'lick.'"
Whoops.
|
|
Just thought this'd be an appropriate place to post this. I'm gonna try to seed the next generation of gamers. Here's my 5.5. month old daughter Katerina paging through my newly arrived Monster Manual IV. I love her so much to let her crease the pages like that. No one else can do that and not get a talking-to.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/189498161/
BTW, check out the rest of the pics and tell me what you think
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32562971@N00/
Hey! I have that sling! The Hot-Sling! I love it.
Incidently where abouts are you? I live in Delaware and was wondering if you are somewhat close by.FH
Hey! I have that sling! The Hot-Sling! I love it.
Incidently where abouts are you? I live in Delaware and was wondering if you are somewhat close by.FH
York, PA. I know, sucks, donnit?
I have the unusual experience of being both in the Psychological profession and religious. If I felt there was an incompatibility with mental health or religion and the game, I'd probably not be involved with it. But, I don't find any innate problems with it, and thus I play, or, more frequently, I GM.
That being said, there were other things mentioned on this thread previously (graphically violent video games and certain music & entertainment types) that I would not recommend for young children (and do not purchase myself). At an appropriate age, I think the majority of older adolescents can intellectually and emotionally process certain types of intense subject matter, but it concerns me when I hear one of my 5-year-old clients telling me how much they love Grand Theft Auto, Jason Vorhees, South Park, Marilyn Manson, or any form of pornography. Generally, they are exposed to these by permissive parents who don't think it's any big deal or damaging to expose children to them. It is.
I think those subject matters are best reserved for adults who have the ability to place the above stated into proper perspective. Young children and emotionally impaired adolescents seldom do.
|
|
I have the unusual experience of being both in the Psychological profession and religious. If I felt there was an incompatibility with mental health or religion and the game, I'd probably not be involved with it. But, I don't find any innate problems with it, and thus I play, or, more frequently, I GM.
That being said, there were other things mentioned on this thread previously (graphically violent video games and certain music & entertainment types) that I would not recommend for young children (and do not purchase myself). At an appropriate age, I think the majority of older adolescents can intellectually and emotionally process certain types of intense subject matter, but it concerns me when I hear one of my 5-year-old clients telling me how much they love Grand Theft Auto, Jason Vorhees, South Park, Marilyn Manson, or any form of pornography. Generally, they are exposed to these by permissive parents who don't think it's any big deal or damaging to expose children to them. It is.
I think those subject matters are best reserved for adults who have the ability to place the above stated into proper perspective. Young children and emotionally impaired adolescents seldom do.
That's interesting. I don't have children but I have nephew and neice both under six. i personally wouldn't want to introduce them to D&D until they were at least in their early teens or so, not because of Satan (or Santa in the dislexic version) but because of the themes of violence. They need to understand it is just a game and a bit silly.
D&D is a great icebreaker when you're in the military, especially if you're a kid.Wow, I though you only had child-soldiers in Africa!
Naaaarf, Brain!
Duh. I should have worded that better. When your PARENT is in the military and you get shuffled from base to base, having to make new friendships, D&D is a great icebreaker.
I have the unusual experience of being both in the Psychological profession and religious. If I felt there was an incompatibility with mental health or religion and the game, I'd probably not be involved with it. But, I don't find any innate problems with it, and thus I play, or, more frequently, I GM.
That being said, there were other things mentioned on this thread previously (graphically violent video games and certain music & entertainment types) that I would not recommend for young children (and do not purchase myself). At an appropriate age, I think the majority of older adolescents can intellectually and emotionally process certain types of intense subject matter, but it concerns me when I hear one of my 5-year-old clients telling me how much they love Grand Theft Auto, Jason Vorhees, South Park, Marilyn Manson, or any form of pornography. Generally, they are exposed to these by permissive parents who don't think it's any big deal or damaging to expose children to them. It is.
I think those subject matters are best reserved for adults who have the ability to place the above stated into proper perspective. Young children and emotionally impaired adolescents seldom do.
Let me appologize because I was a bit quick to make my comments without clarification. Also, before I even get into that, I also want to say that I have no problem with the psychological profession as a whole. Some phycologists just managed to make really bad comments predicated on bad theories, and for some reason, these are the ones sieized upon by the media. Furthermore, I am a practicing Roman Catholic, and have no axe to grind with religion, in general either. That having been said, as with the psychological comment above, the people that are religeous that make absurd blanket statements tend to get the attention, not the ones actually examining moral issues in regards to their faith.
Both of our sons had to be . . . ahem . . . gently guided away from GTA when they were in their early teens, and by the time they were older, they didn't really care for the game (I had the game on my computer for a while, but the more I played it the more "dirty" I felt, even though I a big fan of mafia movies, so I got rid of it myself).
Our daughters have always pressed to see horror movies, and we constantly have to explain to them why these movies are not appropriate for them, and out youngest son went through a phase of only wanting to listen to rap and hip hop, and we were constantly taking CDs that he borrowed from his friends away from him.
On the other hand, things that I think feed into their imaginations that are good for them I watch with them. My kids and I have watched Justice Leauge, Teen Titans, Batman, and the like together, because I know that when I was growing up the feeling of heroes doing something to make the world better that I got in comic books had a huge impact on me.
Also, we rarely watch "normal" television. TLC, the History Channel, or Discovery are a lot more likely to be on, or else we'll be watching a movie.
On top of all of that, their whole lives the kids have come with us and helped work at various school and church events when we have volunteered for them. When we had some people at our local Sam's Club looking for donations for Katrina victims last year, the kids gave their own money before they ever even told us that they had done so.
The point of all of this is that the influences that I listed in my first post are not something that will sneak into your house and convert your child into a druggie/killer/cultist without any ability from you to save them. You have to pay attention to your children, and be active in their lives if you want YOUR influence to have anything to do with them as opposed to a flood of outside influence.
I do appoligize though, because rereading my post I do come across as a bit flip, and I might not have made the point I wanted to make. Thanks Allen.
The negative influence has always been there in some shape or another. When everyone worked on a farm and had to bust their ass from sundown to sunset, it was easier to control your kids, but once modern society settled into place, urbanization and such--bad influences all around. Just look at all the gangs of roaming street urchins that terrorized New York City at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Their parents were working to make ends meet, so these 6-10 year olds were unsupervised and caused all sorts of very serious mayhem. At age 11 most of them were working in factories themselves, so that got them off the streets at least, I suppose.
I think the choice of the individual child is very underestimated. I drank a lot in high school, ditched school and my mom always worked--my father was in another country. I hung out with a bunch of potheads, played D&D, etc....I turned out okay--at age 16 I realized that what happened to me in life was MY responsibility, no one elses, so I joined the Army at 17 and paid my own way through college, because my mom couldn't afford to. Most of my "neglected" peers turned out okay and are good citizens now...some aren't, but most are.
Let's give some of these video-game addicted narcissistic young kids some credit--many of them will turn out okay no matter how screwed up their background is. I'm not saying parents shouldn't be more involved, obviously--I'm just saying that recent developments in technology, such as violent video games and awful TV shows full of sex, gore and violence have less influence long term than many of us believe.
Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist speaking only from my own personal experience, but that's just my opinion. Having said all that, obviously I wouldn't let my pre-schooler play violent video games. My 13 year old polices herself for the most part--she gets mad at us when we let a cuss word slip out (good for her). She is in the NJHS despite her parents' D&D addiction ;)
I am sergeant (a.k.a “green parasite”) in the IDF and have the highest security clearance a soldier can get. Many of my friends are serious gamers and have very classified or responsible jobs in the IDF.
I just thought of you when I saw the news today. I hope you and your friends will come out of this alive and well, just as F2K wrote earlier.
*sigh* I wished so much that the road map to peace would give the Israeli people and the whole Middle East the well-deserved and much needed peace, but apparently, it was not to come true. The forces arrayed against peace seem to be too strong.Nothing will be gained and much be lost in yet another war. That makes me sad.
Again, I just hope you and your friends and relatives will be unharmed in this conflict. Hoping that everyone escapes unharmed would be too optimistic, as dozens have died already and hundreds injured...
I intend no judgment, I just try to express what I´m feeling.
We all read that article in the newspaper and had many a good laugh over it.
Now here's what's really going on: the Israeli LARP community is made of junkies, drunks and freaks (real ones) and in local slang is called RD&D (Real D&D) those idiots run about with real swords and armor and quite often really wound one another. Some general heard about them and said that these folks shouldn’t get responsible jobs in the army because they live in a fantasy world. The aforementioned article, not making the fine distinction between D&D and RD&D wrote that D&D players are classified as “mad” in the IDF and started all this mess.
And speaking of LARPs, did you know that officers in the Lebanese army learn to fight with the sword and the spear? I think there LARPing is mandatory… :)
Those LARPing freaks you describe would obviously really be unfit to hold any position of responsibility. And the press was messing it up as usual.
Concerning the Lebanese officers, well, in war anything goes.
Bayonets are still part of military equipment, so I wouldn´t laugh off a melee training. It surely sounds ridiculous, but may have a serious background.
I read somewhere that the polish army still had cavalry lancer units in the second world war, which were of no use of course - lances against tanks and aircraft ? But a hand-to-hand melee training will never be completely obsolete as long as mankind fights wars - which does not seem to happen anytime soon...
Stefan
Wow that is a lot of stuff in a short amount of time, where to respond...
work story: At our weekly managers meeting we have a permanent agenda item: Kudos. When I got my first (to date only) check for a publication my boss announced it as a kudos to me. There were a few odd looks (you waste your time writing that?) but mostly it was cool (you have time to write?!). I have a lot of dragons in my office so when I meet with students, the gamers come out. hmmm maybe I should start a safezone for geeks and create an official 'safe to speak geek here' poster (like the pink triangle on the wall) Maybe McFarlanes dragons should be the poster (need more dragons :)
power players: At a workshop (last summer's Origins) I thought the speaker said he has gamed in the white house basement-I need to verify that of course...
social stigma: dad called during my regular game night and when I returned the call "DnD? isn't that silly high school stuff?" 'dad, 30 years and some $60k a year industry is not silly hs stuff. my friend's dad refers to it as mental masturbation, but I will let him tell that story...
anti-religous: my only experience (other then we are -fighting- demons already mentioned) when someone was told that pretending to be someone you are not is sacriligious. The kid who told me this lost all credibility when he buzzed really loudly and hit me with his lightsaber (aka broom handle :)
my friend's dad refers to it as mental masturbation,
That's why I have been getting hair on my brain....thank you Scott for saving me millions in neurosurgeon's bills...all I have to do is stop playing D&D and zone out in front of the tube and I'll be safe!!! Oblivion here I come!!!!!!!!!
Let me appologize because I was a bit quick to make my comments without clarification. Also, before I even get into that, I also want to say that I have no problem with the psychological profession as a whole. Some phycologists just managed to make really bad comments predicated on bad theories, and for some reason, these are the ones sieized upon by the media. Furthermore, I am a practicing Roman Catholic, and have no axe to grind with religion, in general either. That having been said, as with the psychological comment above, the people that are religeous that make absurd blanket statements tend to get the attention, not the ones actually examining moral issues in regards to their faith.
Both of our sons had to be . . . ahem . . . gently guided away from GTA when they were in their early...
No appology necessary. Most RPG'ers I have come across who have children are very concerned and dedicated parents. I'm sure you are likewise. Nor did I make my response to suggest that anyone is anything less than an ideal parent. Most people tend to hold up the statements of a Psychologist or other "authority" on a given subject to merely reinforce what their preconceived ideas concerning the subject are to begin with. Rather predictable.
It is regretable that many religious people have a dour view of the game. I don't deem anything about D&D fundamentally at odds with my religious beliefs. I do tend to leave the 'devil' bit out, but 'Bateezu' works well enough, and I'm satisfied with that. As a side note, I'm still confused why many well meaning Christians have problems with the Harry Potter books/movies. Yet many seem to love the Lord of the Rings. Interesting contrast...
I heard that during the height of the gaming craze (early 80's) that many police officers were trained to pick up on D&D hints regarding a suspect because it may mean that they were unstable and more prone to violence - but that was a rumor as far as I know.
I seem to remember that there once was a group called MAD&D (Yep, Mothers Against D&D). It seems to be defunct now, I could not find any reference to it on the Internet. Anyone else old enough to confirm or debunk its existance?
The group was BADD (Bothered About D&D) and among other things, they distributed "information" to law enforcement groups, schools, etc. basically fingering D&D, "black heavy metal music", and movies as the seeds of a vast satanic conspiracy which threatened to Corrupt Your Children.
A public, well-written rebuttal and criticism of BADD and its methods can be found here
And can someone please explain to me how in the hell to do these cut and paste bits from other people's comments after I click on the reply button...
And can someone please explain to me how in the hell to do these cut and paste bits from other people's comments after I click on the reply button...
well i think the simplest way is to, if you are asking about replying to more than one person, is this.
1. right click on the reply to the first person you'd like to reply to, then hit "open in new window" or a new tab if you have a tab supporting browser like firefox.2. do this for every comment you'd like to reply to.
3. copy and paste them all into one reply, adding in your comments in between them as you see fit
voila!
there may be a simpler way but i dunno how it there is
And can someone please explain to me how in the hell to do these cut and paste bits from other people's comments after I click on the reply button...
{QUOTE="name"}text{/QUOTE} - just change the the squiggly brackets {} to flat ones. Or, hit the reply button on the upper right of a post.
And can someone please explain to me how in the hell to do these cut and paste bits from other people's comments after I click on the reply button...{QUOTE="name"}text{/QUOTE} - just change the the squiggly brackets {} to flat ones. Or, hit the reply button on the upper right of a post.
I did that. It's not a problem when I leave the other person's post unchanged, but when I try to cut it down in size to save everyone from having to read the whole thing, I have problems. I appreciate your attempt to assist my ineptitude.
|
|
Besides all the normal stuff back in the early 80's, my story is this: I was sitting in church 3-4 years ago (Roman Catholic) and notice a small 2"x 4" booklet outlining what were "mortal" sins and what were "venial" sins, D&D playing was a Mortal Sin. I didn't go to church for a while due to the anger I felt at that. Now I go but they get $2 a week as punishment.
FH (Sinner? Judge not lest ye be judged! Dicks.)
|
I graduated high school in 1986.
I was just curious: does roleplaying STILL carry that weird misunderstood stigma nowadays?Well, it doesn't here and I don't think it ever really did. It was certainly considered geeky (and that still holds, though it guess that is fair to a large extent) but I never came across any problems at school, work, family or friends while being involved in RPGs. However, of course, the UK is a much less religious (or at least, overtly religious) place than the US, which probably explains why satanism and devil-worship were never considered serious risks (in fact, a fundamentalist Christian would be considered far weirder than a D&D enthusiast).
(snip)
So, very mild geeky stigma, complete disinterest from a religious viewpoint.
Same for me. My parents, who were quite possibly the straightest people on this planet, never even brought up the issue (nor were they interested in my PMRC-stickered LPs; my dad even liked them, as they made me more attentive to international issues... I knew perfectly well who Tipper Gore was and that Al was a senator from Tennessee - not bad for a 13 year-old longhair).
However, there is something of a resurgence of the "dumb geek" stigma against RPGs in Norway, primarily because of the great popularity of Vampire: The Masquerade - the players tend to be very serious about the game and are also very visually distinctive. All that black leather and corpsepaint does not sit well with a lot of otherwise rather liberal Norwegians. Still, it is more along the line of "Idiots!" rather than "Satanists!"...
Never experienced anything to do with D&D being a problem, but down under here is Aussie land it's pretty relaxed. I know a youth minister who plays D&D and several other well-adjusted intelligent people (not including myself). The most I've got is blank stares and a few words about D&D being geeky.
Now, how boring was this post? HoHum.
my friend's dad refers to it as mental masturbation,That's why I have been getting hair on my brain....thank you Scott for saving me millions in neurosurgeon's bills...all I have to do is stop playing D&D and zone out in front of the tube and I'll be safe!!! Oblivion here I come!!!!!!!!!
Heh. Well said. What do these folks who deride our hobby do for recreation ? Watching TV ? I´d rather masturbate than get f***ed by the crap on TV every day!
But to each his own, as they say...Stefan
As a side note, I'm still confused why many well meaning Christians have problems with the Harry Potter books/movies. Yet many seem to love the Lord of the Rings. Interesting contrast...
Harry Potter condones sorcery in the eyes of some "good" christians, thats their bone of contention, AFAIK. (Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.(Ex. 22:18))
That the books really deal with the value of friendship and overcoming ones own weaknesses seems to be lost on those who critisize them.Perhaps the overall minor active role sorcery plays in LotR leads these people not to critisize it, and the fact that "upright", normal people win against a evil sorcerer/demigod is "right" in their eyes. I don´t know, just an idea.
Stefan
As I have said before, some religeous folk (many well meaning but ill informed), cause problems, but its often pop-psych types that managed to REALLY cause problems, because then some reporter, or even equally well meaning parents, read it and assume that anyone with a PhD in psychology couldn't possibly be so foolish as to make gigantic, error ridden leaps of judgement when formulating their reports.
Then again, I tend to always remember Fredrick Wertham whenever I think of psychologists that get taken too seriously and the damage they can cause.
If you have a psychologist with an anti-roleplaying message they are outside of the orthodoxy as the orthodox psych position is that the game is generally a good hobby and one should only really get concerned if you have a mentally unstable client (some one who already has shown a lack of ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality for example).
For a psychologist to take such a position in defiance of the APA implies some kind of other motive generally. Though its worth noting that the orthodox position in the APA can be disputed by significant minorities in the field (the prevalence of perscribing stimulants to children being an example of a hotly contested debate in the field for example).
The group was BADD (Bothered About D&D) and among other things, they distributed "information" to law enforcement groups, schools, etc. basically fingering D&D, "black heavy metal music", and movies as the seeds of a vast satanic conspiracy which threatened to Corrupt Your Children.A public, well-written rebuttal and criticism of BADD and its methods can be found here
I just looked up Pat Pulling on wikipedia, and BADD is defunct because she died in 1997.
If you read through Michael Stackpoles report, towards the end there is a letter from Sean Sellers. That was one case where a connection existed between D&D and satanism, but, as Sellers himself wrote, more like an abuse of the game towards his very own sinister ends. If you search for statements by Sellers via Google, some of them can be read otherwise, however.
On another note, Sellers was executed for his crimes in 1999, although he was sixteen when he commited the murders.
Article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) - to which the United States is a party - expressly states that the death penalty shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age.
The full letter can be found here.
My sentiments concerning the death penalty are according the lines spoken by Gandalf in Moria when Frodo suggests killing Gollum...Enough on that sad topic.
Stefan
|
|
As a side note, I'm still confused why many well meaning Christians have problems with the Harry Potter books/movies. Yet many seem to love the Lord of the Rings. Interesting contrast...Harry Potter condones sorcery in the eyes of some "good" christians, thats their bone of contention, AFAIK. (Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.(Ex. 22:18))
That the books really deal with the value of friendship and overcoming ones own weaknesses seems to be lost on those who critisize them.Perhaps the overall minor active role sorcery plays in LotR leads these people not to critisize it, and the fact that "upright", normal people win against a evil sorcerer/demigod is "right" in their eyes. I don´t know, just an idea.
Stefan
Somehow, the Narnia books and movie are considered "good Christian literature" but I see almost no differences in that and D&D in general. The movie had the kids killing minotaurs, ogres, giants, goblins, dwarves, etc, WTF is the difference between that and D&D that makes D&D an evil force.
just an observation
FH
I did that. It's not a problem when I leave the other person's post unchanged, but when I try to cut it down in size to save everyone from having to read the whole thing, I have problems. I appreciate your attempt to assist my ineptitude.
The trick is to make sure the section of quoted text begins with the opening [QUOTE="Whoever"] tag, and ends with the [/QUOTE] tag. Make sure your own reply comes after the final [/QUOTE] tag. Make sure that if you delete text, you don't delete someone else's open-quote tag without deleting their close-quote tag too; it's like brackets in maths, they have to match up.
However, there is something of a resurgence of the "dumb geek" stigma against RPGs in Norway, primarily because of the great popularity of Vampire: The Masquerade - the players tend to be very serious about the game and are also very visually distinctive. All that black leather and corpsepaint does not sit well with a lot of otherwise rather liberal Norwegians. Still, it is more along the line of "Idiots!" rather than "Satanists!"...
"Oh well then, if that's all -HEY!"
The Great Green God
PS Satan was a putz.
Somehow, the Narnia books and movie are considered "good Christian literature"
lewis was a christian scholar and his whole purpose of writing naria was to prep children for growing up to be good christians. narnia tells the same story as the bible, using different characters. the lion is jesus, making the sacrifice, etc. children were supposed to later be able to look back at narnia when they later encountered christianity and say, 'oh, that's just like narnia....' and the way would have been pathed for their acceptance and faith. the connection seems lost on most people i've talked to, however. i, myself, never made this connection until we studied it in a college lit class....
|
Somehow, the Narnia books and movie are considered "good Christian literature"
Pure fundamentalist Christianity is built on the belief that the Bible is literal historical truth from the mouth of God.
Therefore, since Saul consulted the Witch of Endor to talk to the ghost of the prophet Samuel, witchcraft is a viable actual phenomenon.Ergo, owning literature (i. e. the D&D books) discussing forms of sorcery, wizardry, and the like is akin to actual practice of sorcery. D&D doesn't condemn the use of magic. It is an energy source to be used for good OR evil.
Narnia makes the cut because the only witch present is cast in a bad light. Heck, the Bible had a witch in it.
Harry Potter, however, is making the use of magic look like fun and games. Taking a strict fundamentalist viewpoint, one's immortal soul is in peril if one attends Hogwart's School.
The primary difference comes about from the portrayal of magic-whether it is the harnessing of demonic power, or some natural phenomenon utilizable for good or evil.
The tricky part is that there's a difference between reading the Bible word for word, and actually understanding it in context. The modern practice of taking sound-bites from the Bible is frequently abused by quoting individual lines out of context as if each line is intended to stand on its own.
I looked over the Bible to see what I could find in the way of prohibitions against witchcraft. The only thing I could really find was a prohibition against various practices, which seems to be a blanket ban on paganism and non-Jewish religious practices. In other words, witchcraft and magic are sinful only in the capacity that they involve revering obsolete or foreign religious traditions.
I think it's just out of fear an ignorance that people fear witchcraft and magic. Since it's not an organized religion, people have wildly varying ideas about what it is, and as such, nobody knows what it is. Some Christians are probably afraid that this mysterious, dark thing called "magic" which the Bible prohibits can magically damn their souls or somehow bring evil into the world.
Then again, I tend to always remember Fredrick Wertham whenever I think of psychologists that get taken too seriously and the damage they can cause.If you have a psychologist with an anti-roleplaying message they are outside of the orthodoxy as the orthodox psych position is that the game is generally a good hobby and one should only really get concerned if you have a mentally unstable client (some one who already has shown a lack of ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality for example).
For a psychologist to take such a position in defiance of the APA implies some kind of other motive generally. Though its worth noting that the orthodox position in the APA can be disputed by significant minorities in the field (the prevalence of perscribing stimulants to children being an example of a hotly contested debate in the field for example).
The American Psychological Association (APA) does not have an "official" position on role-playing games. RPG's have never been, nor are they now categorized as aversive or deviant behavior. RPG's are NOT a discussed or debated issue in the psychological community at large. I have yet to read a paper or hear of a symposium about the subject of RPG's. The only time RPG's are an issue is when someone who happens to play the game, does something terrible or dangerous, and the game gets drawn into the debate of why the individual did whatever he or she did.
1994 I had to make a presentation in my English class. The presentation was supposed to be of our favorite hobby. Some people presented woodburning, basketball and writing poetry. When I presented D&D, one girl got up and left the room in horror. She was a religious fanatic and didn't want her soul stripped from her body. The teacher told me that my presentation wasn't acceptable.
We had a heated discussion about why it was or wasn't appropriate. I eventually made my presentation but the teacher totally ruined it because the other kids saw his reaction and didn't seem receptive at all.
On another note, My dad is a teacher and he has always been pretty cool with it. He doesn't play but he always jokingly says, "Going to play Devil's Advocate?" Everytime I go to my buddy's place to play D&D. Still makes me smile. ;)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I've been playing D&D since I was 10. I first learned about it from an older (13-year-old) kid who was in the same after-school program as me. He saw me drawing pictures of knights with swords and shields and asked if I'd heard about D&D. The rest is history...
Anyway, my parents are pretty strictly religious. I was very much into the church thing until I was about 8 when I started to lose interest in religion as a whole. D&D had nothing to do with my loss of interest (as the loss happened before I even started playing) but my mom never knew I played D&D until I was about 13 (when I started buying my own books). When the confrontation came, she came to me with the statement of 'is this that devil-worship game?' I told her that it had nothing to do with devil-worship and tried to explain to her how the system worked but she seemed pretty adamant about this fact. We let it blow over until I was about 16 (though she continued to harass me about it occassionally). By this point, my D&D collection had become rather substantial (since I had a job at this point and little else to spend my money on, plus the fact that I found other gamers at work). Again, she confronted me and threatened to destroy my books. She was much more stern about it this time, insisting that it had everything to do with why I no longer attended church. I told her, point blank, "This is my hobby. It is what I do for fun. You watch TV all the time and I don't threaten to throw it in the lake, do I? I swear, if you decide to take issue with my hobbies because of your silly misconceptions of a perfectly innocent game and destroy the collection that I've invested over $400 into, I will move in with my friends and you will never hear from me again. Decide now, which is more important, your silly belief or your son? I'm serious as a heart attack about this." She wanted me to take the books with me to go meet with her pastor and I told her that I would. After speaking with the pastor, I finally managed to convince them of the fact that there is a difference between what our CHARACTERS do and what WE do. Do I believe I can wiggle my fingers and set someone on fire? NO! Can my character? Absolutely. Then the pastor hit me with "But doesn't your fantasy carry over into real life sometimes? Don't you wish your WERE your character and could do all these things?" I responded with "Do I wish I were? Sometimes. But what harm is there in that? Don't you sometimes wish you were someone else? Just because the person I wish I was and the person you wish you were are different doesn't make it evil. This is no different than little girls dressing up as Cinderella or little boys playing G.I. Joe in the backyard." Finally, he said "True... but aren't you a little old for that? You're almost an adult." I laughed at this one. "No, I'm not too old for this and I never will be. Who do you think WRITES these books? I'll tell you it certainly isn't a bunch of 12 year olds. As for the maturity involved, the people who write this book clearly have their heads together well enough to manage a business, publish, and distribute their works. Sounds like any other professional job to me."
Needless to say, I received an apology from the pastor and my mother, though my mother still thinks its 'silly' she doesn't harass me about it anymore. I suppose that's good enough.
Heck, if all the pastors and moms in the world were that open minded about it to give you a chance to explain it to them, D&D wouldn't get the bad rap that it does.
Sadly, the majority of the world is too wrapped up in their own self-indulgent self-righteous idiocy to ever let the facts interfere with an opinion.
After speaking with the pastor, I finally managed to convince them of the fact...
Good on you for standing up to ignorance so effectively.
I had the advantage of growing up in an openminded family. Furthermore, my parents were reform jews, so they were already inclined to view fundamentalist christian propaganda with a large dollop of skepticism. When propaganda was at its peak, my father sat down with my to play through a few rooms of Keep On the Borderlands, came to the conclusion that it was no different from playing with toy soldiers, and stated that to any parent who asked about it. I can only imagine he got asked a lot, as we lived in Mobile, Alabama and whatever stories you may have heard of that city's religious bigotry are likely not far from the truth.
(Dad later went on to be quite fond of the PC game "Wizardry", which was regarded as the closest thing a computer could do to D&D at the time.)