This cover-art is absolutely gorgeous. Is there anyway to get a poster-sized version for my wall?
This also has me thinking - any chance we'll ever see a "swimsuit" issue featuring all the gorgeous ladies of D&D??? ;-)
here here....
oh, Lillith? *g*
|
This cover-art is absolutely gorgeous. Is there anyway to get a poster-sized version for my wall?
This also has me thinking - any chance we'll ever see a "swimsuit" issue featuring all the gorgeous ladies of D&D??? ;-)
I like the artwork. A swimsuit issue would suck. I stopped reading Play magazine (video-games) and subscribing because of juvenile stuff like "The Girls of Gaming" and that every-single-damned-cover was the same formula: large-breasted anime girl toting whatever weapon they happened to have in the game. I don't want to hide my magazine because it has some 14 yr olds nocturnal emissions generator.
I think Paizo is doing a great job in straddling the line where sex sells. Artistic sexuality in doses attracts more people to a product than blatant pandering to the lowest common denominater. Great job, Paizo, don't change a thing.
FH(my kids will see this too.)
This also has me thinking - any chance we'll ever see a "swimsuit" issue featuring all the gorgeous ladies of D&D??? ;-)
I don't think we'll be getting a swimsuit issue any time soon, but there is an Art of Dragon Magazine coming out in October.
I'm much bigger fan of the "artistic sexuality" line of thinking rather than the big boobs/bigger gun mentality that's rather pervasive in video games.
And lest we forget, some beefcake shots would be nice too...
This was the first time my wife took an interest in the cover of what she calls my geeky magazine. Eyebrows shot up straight away...
"Who's that?" she asked.
"Erm...no one..." I replied.
And lest we forget, some beefcake shots would be nice too...
Mmmm...beefcake...
I just got mine in the mail today. I was blown away. And Im just talking about from the neck up! I too would love to get a poster of this cover. When I read the editorial and got sad about EM moving on up I had to go back to the cover to cheer me up.
heh
My fiance said "Wow! who is she?" last night when she saw the issue. heh followed by "what are they selling?"
lol
I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
When I saw the layout of the issue at Origins, I thought it was some sort of advertisement. It's a good thing I checked the mail the day it arrived, or my girlfriend would have flipped out...
...because of all the spiders. She could care less about a mostly-naked woman on the cover of a magazine. Spiders, on the other hand, she has a phobia of... =)
I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
I didnt even notice the look of the body atfirst. I was fixated on the face and hair. THAT is what got me for this cover. Not that there was anything wrong with the body mind you, but it from the shoulders up that snagged my attention.
Creative Director
|
I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
As far as I know there wasn't anything of the sort. What I do know is that covers like this sell magazines, and that's the cover's job. Putting this tactic on hold would be akin to not accepting subscriptions for a month or skipping an issue—it wouldn't help the magazine's sales. The only thing I can guarentee is that the covers will continue to reflect something in the content of the issue it covers.
For someone's funny story about this cover, check out the thread "Funny Attitudes to Gaming".
Normally Dungeon covers are pretty obvious. This one required a double take to see what magazine it was on.
With no adventure path currently running I imagine something needed to be done to move the issue off of store shelves. Any chance of ever hearing how successful such covers are at moving product?
|
Creative Director
|
Normally Dungeon covers are pretty obvious. This one required a double take to see what magazine it was on.
With no adventure path currently running I imagine something needed to be done to move the issue off of store shelves. Any chance of ever hearing how successful such covers are at moving product?
I'm not going to post numbers... but they seem to do a lot better than most covers at moving product off shelves. At least in the mass market venue. Better enough that the subject will be revisited every 4-6 issues.
Oh, and it was the last copy on the shelf. Just in time.
and there is my reason why Im into my 2nd year being subscribed to Both Dungeon and Dragon
heh
It might be spiderwebs but it's still just a " chainmail bikini " and a paint-over to boot.
No offence but when I want chicks I buy men's mags.
Cut the crap, Dungeon. This is cheap shot promotion and you know it.
This cover-art is absolutely gorgeous. Is there anyway to get a poster-sized version for my wall?
This also has me thinking - any chance we'll ever see a "swimsuit" issue featuring all the gorgeous ladies of D&D??? ;-)
Very drool-esque
I concur. We all know that stuff sells, but that doesn't make it right for this magazine. There's no shortage of it out there if someone wants to look for it. Let's keep Dungeon's content in line with what all of it's readers can enjoy. Stick to what you do best and leave the sales tricks to other mags.
Dukan,
Soldier. Gamer. Parent.
It might be spiderwebs but it's still just a " chainmail bikini " and a paint-over to boot.
No offence but when I want chicks I buy men's mags.
Cut the crap, Dungeon. This is cheap shot promotion and you know it.
So what? If T&A keeps my favorite magazine in the black, so be it. Cover #136 had a muscle-bound male drow on it. It's a fantasy game and you can bet my gaming group will remember that NPC if I point her out on the cover.
Nah , sorry , don't buy your points.
The magazine's in the black because people like me and you buy it. Do we buy it for T&A? No, we buy it for quality adventures and game aids.
And you're right. Dungeon 136 did have amuscle bound drow male on the cover....who was fully clothed and ready for action as opposed to miss spiderweb who was nearly naked and "ready for action ". Trust me on this one, it's not the same.
And for the record, saying " it's a fantasy game " is a cop out. Your player's will probably remember the NPC's stats but not her stat block....
whatever increase in sales because of this cover will be one-off once the newbies realise that Dungeons not a mens mag and the players that we should be getting in to carry the hobby into the future - women - all take two steps back.
I think this discussion brings up a really good point: quality artwork is VERY important to the success of the gaming industry.
I, personally, find that when reading an issue of Dungeon, if I don't like the art for a particular adventure, then I'm more likely to skip over it and read one of the others first.
Of course, I'm sure there are people out there who absolutely LOVE the art that I don't care for - so maybe this all balances out.
Historically, I think one reason DragonLance was so successful was because the art for it was so good. ( What ever happened to Larry Elmore? I'd love to see more of his work in new WoTC products!)
So, on one hand, I can say that I buy Dungeon for the adventures and would continue doing so even if there were NO art at all, etc., I also know that the art does, on some level, shape my impression of the material (whether I think an adventure is "great" or "just okay").
bal3000--you and I buy the magazine for the adventures (and I personally would still buy it if it was in B&W like the old days). However, the magazine staff have mentioned repeatedly that sexy covers mean that particular issue sells more, so someone out there is purchasing the magazine for more than its quality content. Should "Dungeon" take the high road and not go after these buyers? I don't think so, especially when the profit margins are so tight. I understand your position, bal3000, but I just think that considering every other magazine in the world uses T&A to sell more copies, why should Dungeon be any different.
I want to point out that the attractive female on the cover of this month's Dragon is fully armored and in a much more "realistic" adventuring setting.
What I'd like to point out, is that compositionally it is a brilliant piece of art. The colours, and subject matter are all well done. The artwork is linked to something within the magazine, and in fact I'd be proud to have something like that to hang on my wall.
Let me ask you, why is a nude in the renaissance considered art, while a woman in a silk bikini in modern times considered risque?
bal3000--you and I buy the magazine for the adventures (and I personally would still buy it if it was in B&W like the old days). However, the magazine staff have mentioned repeatedly that sexy covers mean that particular issue sells more, so someone out there is purchasing the magazine for more than its quality content. Should "Dungeon" take the high road and not go after these buyers? I don't think so, especially when the profit margins are so tight. I understand your position, bal3000, but I just think that considering every other magazine in the world uses T&A to sell more copies, why should Dungeon be any different.
I want to point out that the attractive female on the cover of this month's Dragon is fully armored and in a much more "realistic" adventuring setting.
f2k,
I don't subscribe to your logic - if everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't we? That line of thinking is a slippery slope. What's next, fantasy babe of the month centerfolds? I'm sure that would boost sales too, but it's getting away from what the magazine is all about and the audience it targets. If all they care about is high profit margins, then they're in the wrong business.
If it gets to the point where you don't want to have your kids go out and get the mail because of what's on the cover, or you would be embarrased to have your neighbor pick up your mail while your out of town, then I'd say it's gone to far for a few extra bucks. The magazine should be appropriate for all it's readers.
Dungeon is a great mag, with great artwork. I hope it won't go down the road in the future of publishing inappropriate material for some of its core audience.
|
My two cents...
I liked the cover, and personally have no qualms with it.
I don't know what to do about my kids looking at this or that; I'll pass that bridge when I get there.
I didn't buy the magazine expressly for the cover, but it is eye-catching.
I showed the cover to my wife and said, "is this that bad?"
She said, "well, what's the big deal; it's a MEN'S hobby, isn't it?"
I mean, that was her raw honest reaction, and that is the concept reinforced by t&a on the cover. It's a men's hobby.
If there is a need or want or desire to include more women, maybe there should be concessions. I really don't know offhand how vast a market of potential female gamers there is; I do know that my wife is an incurable video game junkie, so it just stands to reason.
My gaming group consists of 3 females and 2 males (plus me as the DM)...40% of my gaming group thinks the cover is awesome, the other 60% just raise an eyebrow and shrug.
Sex sells I'm sure has already been mentioned. As Adventure Paths, the words "Monte Cook" and "Greyhawk." Tight profit margins was probably discussed (I really don't think James would be staying past 8pm at work if he could afford to just let lacky editor number 6 handle the werebat ettin stat blocks), and if you think you might be embarrassed about the cover art take a look at the top where it says Dungeon is big swollen letters ("Humph, Role-playing you say? Yeah me and little woman talked about that one, but I was always worried about the zipper getting snagged on my moustache. It ain't Godly I tell you!"). And If you think she's "ready to go" then I'm thinking you are an arachnophile. In case you hadn't noticed, she's got cooties. Just imagine the spider guts.
When I was about thirteen I bought Dragon 114 after finding kick ass adventures and cool gaming articles in issues 105, 109 and 110. I really don't remember being ashamed of carrying that issue and it's cool witch article and random graveyard encounter chart with me practically everywhere. As for the cover I though it was cool. I like fantasy art that tells stories or gives me an idea for an adventure, rather than someone just posing with a bunch of red ticks crawling on them - it really is the face on this latest cover that is most striking though. The cover to 114 worked well with contents and that was about it. Perhaps it was because I'm into girls that are trim rather than super endowed, or perhaps it was because I hadn't learned that I should be ashamed of certain things (cut of my hair, mode of dress, ability to speak up when I thought I was right, etc...), but whatever the reason I see this more as an issue of censorship. Is the covergirl sexy? Sure. Would I do her? Well, I suppose if there was chemistry between us and no bugs, sure. Remember the last Kyuss cover? Was it scary? Sure. Should I be angry that it illicited fear/loathing and/or glee at the thought of my PCs fighting such a beasty too? Why are there men's magazines, cheerleaders, strip clubs, romance novels and naughty spider girl covers twice a year if being sexy is so counter to social and cultural mores. This is America folks -spelled with a bright red "A"- and we angst over sex. We like it, but at the sametime we're puritans about it. I say get over it. If you've got kids old enough to ask questions talk to them. Talk to them about sex, drugs, war, the price of gas and pretty much everything, and explain why the world is the way it is. The more explaining you do now the less clean up you'll have later.
I think I may reread the Scarlet Letter tonight.
GGG
*bows in awe of the command of the English language that GGG has*
Nicely put.
|
|
GGG well said ... I am waiting to get my copy this week. As a father of two girls I am aware of the struggle with what is appropriate and how to help develop self-esteem in a world where women can be seen as objects.
I personally found the cover of a friend's copy to be amazing because it appears to be good art. The difference between art and dross (the nude and the naked) is subjective, and I don't presume to have the right to tell someone else how to live there life.
If you are offended by the cover ... then don't buy the issue (sorry James) but don't also try to change those of us who can appreciate the art involved. I find the covers have been great and intend to keep supporting the efforts here and the hobby I love.
|
Let me ask you, why is a nude in the renaissance considered art, while a woman in a silk bikini in modern times considered risque?
Great Green God's response was well said but I think Nighthunter's comment above also should be considered.
And bal3000 I'd doubt this issues sells more copies to people who DON'T play D&D cause of the cover, c'mon!. Even then I doubt this will sell more copies to players who don't pick up Dungeon cause their DM buys it.
It's a cool cover and that's it. Just like the cover of Dragon #337 was a cool cover and did anyone complain that it had a topless Zuggtmoy Queen of Fungi!
Reebo
Wow indeed, I like the cover, not enough to make it a theme for every issue, but its nice now and again. I still can't help but wonder, why every D&D magazine offends! One dragon mag issue had the Minotaur demon whats his name on it and boards are full upset people, a little sex appeal and the boards are full of upset people, a little too boring plain jane fanatasy and the boards are full of up set people... sheessh! You guys will leave the poor Paizo art directors with nothing to work with. To those that b+@%& 'cause the cover isn't suitable for your kids; your kids have seen 'worse' every day (unless you live in Taliban controlled territory of course)and Dungeon isn't a kids magazine! Dungeon magazine is for those who love D&D and, like it or not, we are a diverse group; from family gamers who run 'PG' family games, to family guys who want an escape from the everyday and breakout the BoVD after the kids are in bed, to the younger male set who need to to be lured away from evil vidiot games who's art layouts have even bigger boobs. So to Paizo, thanks for the cover art, you won't make everyone happy with everycover, but I love that you keep trying!
As a female gamer and a feminist, here's my two coppers:
The cover to 137 was beautiful and artistic... kudos to the artist.
The cover with the female drow and displacer beast was beautiful and artistic.
Sophie the Succubus from Reaper Miniatures is trashy, cheesecake T&A.
Just wanted to take a minute to point out the difference, in my humble opinion.
GGG well said ... I am waiting to get my copy this week. As a father of two girls I am aware of the struggle with what is appropriate and how to help develop self-esteem in a world where women can be seen as objects.
Thanks Walker (and everyone else for that matter). As I am A) not a woman, nor B) have any spawn of my own so I really cannot speak authoritatively on the subject so it is nice to see I'm not (too much of) a nut. I think that should I ever be blessed with a child (oh, and a wife would probably be good first) I would try to raise them like Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird. I love that book.
GGG
|
|
Well, I thought I'd put in my two-cents-worth...but I think GGG sums it up very nicely. I will say I’m surprised by the several rather vehement reactions to this amazing cover. I really didn't think much of it (as an overt, sexually-charged cover) until someone brought it up (I’m married with children, so don’t think it for a minute…). I say, bravo to the editors for putting such attention to the cover, which is typically so smattered with blurbs (cf EM’s editorial in Dragon 345). Did anyone notice the title of the magazine is actually obscured by the arachnophile? Do the Hester Prynne-scorning demagogues fail to make the connection between the cover art and the main feature within? Did they scoff at the cover of _War of the Spider Queen VI_, as well…? Lastly, and for the record, my wife kindly brought me my copy in from the mail the other day. As she handed it to me she said, “Oooh---creepy!” My daughter reached across the counter, fingers grasping, and exclaimed, “Cool! Is she an albino drow?” (Don’t be harsh. She just saw _The da Vinci Code_...)
For my part, I'm fed up.
I'm not fed up with sexualized cover images; I'm fed up with puritans who get in a snit about them but don't bat an eye at the violence central to the game. Between sex and violence, it's my opinion that our culture could use more of the former and less of the latter.
I appreciate the feminist argument that there's a disparity in the cheesecake vs beefcake balance. As a male gamer who would like to know more women who can enjoy and appreciate the hobby, I'd like to see a more long term approach to marketing to women. It's probably true that cheesecake sells magazines now and beefcake doesn't. But if a nod in the direction of objectifying men equally with women will make girl gamers feel more welcome, then by all mean, let's grow that audience. Beefcake covers might not sell mags today, but they might start to create an audience that they'll sell to eventually.
Not that I'm sure I buy that argument. After all, outside this market, we can see that images of women are more popular than images of men overall. Women's magazines have women on the cover and men's magazines have women on the cover. There was even a lovely quote from Keira Knightly recently about how, for a recent covershoot for a women's magazine, the photo manipulators told her they were going to photoshop her image up to a C-cup. The claim was that the female audience of the magazine wouldn't identify with a flat cover model and wouldn't buy the mag.
Regardless of whether or not beefcake is the answer, I don't want to see my fantasy genre game castrated. I do want to see more women gamers. I'd like to see more of an effort made to welcome them to the hobby. Specific games (Vampire: the Masquerade and The Sims especially) have had great success in that regard. I'd say it's time we took a closer look at what they did right. Neutering the game obviously isn't it.
As far as I know there wasn't anything of the sort. What I do know is that covers like this sell magazines, and that's the cover's job. Putting this tactic on hold would be akin to not accepting subscriptions for a month or skipping an issue—it wouldn't help the magazine's sales. The only thing I can guarentee is that the covers will continue to reflect something in the content of the issue it covers.I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
Who was the model for this cover? Does James Ryman have any other work with her in it?
FWIW, I thought the work was spectacular. I don't always like all of Dragon's or Dungeon's covers, but this one was particularly nice. I was a bit bored by Dragon #345's cover for example, but liked #343's cover alot.
As a father of a teenaged young woman, I'm sensitive to the view that today's culture objectifies women (such as pretty much all of hip hop), but this cover didn't strike me at all as pandering to that easy sell. It was a good work of art that linked well with the adventure, which I learned right away because the cover drove me there. Nicely done.
For crying out loud... Why is it when someone (only 2 people actually) posts thier dissastisfaction with the suggestive content on the latest cover of Dungeon people come out of the woodwork to shout them down. Now we have puritans trying to censor/castrate/neuter the mag? C'mon, not hardly. Talk about censorship...
The cover was a stunt to boost sales. The Editor all but said so. If you've read the adventure it pertains to, there's no such scene in there anyway. The character, Arianne is dressed in "tattered and dirty" clothing with an expression of "trepidation" on her face - probably because she got pimped out on the cover ;-) And no, the clever American beauty parallel didn't escape me. But that was rated R and was a lousy pice of filmwork itself. But that's a whole other thread.
Consider this. Who has written in requesting more suggestive, sexy, erotic, or whatever images in the mag? No one would have noticed if this or a like cover were never produced. Yet there are some who didn't appreciate the sellout. If they never do a like cover, y'all probably wouldn't even notice. I suspect most here read the mag for it's adventures and game aids. Your money/time would be better spent elsewhere if you are looking for something else.
I know I could just stop buying the mag but I'm a subscriber for now, so the issue in question was mailed into my home. My point is that Dungeon can proivide a quality product for it's whole readership without taking the road they did. Dungeon should be about good adventures and gaming aids that we all can use. Leave the rest up to your imagination.
Dukan,
Soldier. Gamer. Parent... and Puritan I guess.
As far as I know there wasn't anything of the sort. What I do know is that covers like this sell magazines, and that's the cover's job. Putting this tactic on hold would be akin to not accepting subscriptions for a month or skipping an issue—it wouldn't help the magazine's sales. The only thing I can guarentee is that the covers will continue to reflect something in the content of the issue it covers.I thought there was supposed to be a hiatus of (womens) boobs and ass on the cover of Dungeon for a while. What gives?
Erik Mona indicates a moritorium for a while on this thread. Of course he does not indicate just how long the break will be but I suppose I was thinking of something a little longer.
When I was about thirteen I bought Dragon 114 after finding kick ass adventures and cool gaming articles in issues 105, 109 and 110. I really don't remember being ashamed of carrying that issue and it's cool witch article and random graveyard encounter chart with me practically everywhere. As for the cover I though it was cool.
I remember this cover as well. In fact that link does not do it justice in anyway shape or form. as I recall this cover caused quite a stir at the time. I mean she is quite clearly naked under the sheerest of...I am not sure what that article of clothing is...A chemise maybe? The comments in the issues that followed where mixed then as I am sure they would be today. The only one that stands out in my memory was one along the lines that she should do her worship on a warmer night as her nipples have clearly turned blue.
In any case my issue with the cover is not about morality so much as perception. Being single, male and an atheist I actually would not care, from a moral standpoint, if they had hardcore sex on the covers (presuming we are not talking about rape or anything with children).
I do however care about the perception of the hobby and I care about the issue deeply if we are driving potential players away. I'm bringing a female neophyte into the game at the moment and I hope to bring in others occasionally in the future. My gaming material should not make this task more difficult but should facilitate it.
In that respect I have some issues with this cover and it is not just about the near nudity - I think my concern is actually more with how passive she is. I mean if your going to have hot chicks on the covers I wish they would at least be doing something interesting.
In fact I have a double standard in this regard. I would not blink if they had a muscle bound male Gladiator, wearing nada but a thong, on the cover. I simply don't feel that such a cover would impede my ability to bring male players into the game hence its not an issue with me in the same manner.
Alternitivly if there was more beefcake then it would be an equal oportunity thing and I would not feel a need to hide Dungeon issues from females when putting the hobby on display.
|
Creative Director
|
Erik Mona indicates a moritorium for a while on this thread. Of course he does not indicate just how long the break will be but I suppose I was thinking of something a little longer.
Ah; well, as it turned out, said moritorium lasted for about half a year.
Although I'm not going to anounce another moritorium of any cover themes now, I can say that we'll be varying the content of Dungeon's covers (as we have been). Looking at our list of cover images for the next year, it looks like it'll be a while before our next scandalous cover comes out. Unless you count dinosasurs, devils, and classic D&D villains as scandalous, I suppose...