Greetings all,
I am dming a group that is transitioning into AoW at a higher level, Champion's Belt, and one of my players had to move away which, in turn, caused another player to change characters to provide the party with a cleric. I made an error and pointed out that the party did not have anyone to turn undead (that's the last time I ever give a hint about anything... shame on me for metagaming). The new cleric, who hasn't played a cleric in 12 years, comes back to me with a Radiant Servant of Pelor. At first, I was welcoming to this character and the character's concept and background, he was the sole survivor of a tpk involving a group that had worked up through the adventures in AoW to try the party into AoW. Last night before I fell asleep, which is when I have my momentary bouts of intelligence, I realize that as a 10th level character he would be able to turn as a 20th level character, i.e. 10 + 4 (great roll) + 1 (improved turning) + 4 (phylactery of undead turning). Now for those of you who know, this can be somewhat of a problem at the end of Champion's Belt. Also, what do I do at later modules when the undead are more powerful but so is he. At 20th level, he could turn a 30 hd monster with a few feats and magic items.
What do I do?
Does anything need to be done?
Am I over-reacting?
I don't have the adventures here with me to check my facts, but -
1) Most undead have higher hit dice compared to their challenge rating. For example, I think the one at the end of Champion's Belt has 20-something hit dice.
2) Most powerful undead should have turn resistance to add to their hit dice for determining if they can be turned. (If any important undead throughout the adventures lack turn resistance, you can always add it.)
1+2=) Between Hit Dice and turn resistance, it's rare that an undead creature of CR equal to or higher than the party would be vulnerable to turning attempts.
3) Two spell effects come in handy here. Unhallow places a -4 penalty on all turn checks (although it grants a bonus to rebuke attempts, so watch out if you've got evil cleric PCs). Desecrate imposes a -3 penalty to turn checks (or -6 if there's an altar or shrine in the area) and also gives a bit of a combat boost to undead creatures in the area. It would be perfectly appropriate to add one or both of these effects to key encounter areas, such as the entire Spire of Long Shadows or any single undead boss-monster encounter. I don't know for certain that those areas don't already have something like this in place.
My main point is - The turn undead ability is intended for blasting away undead minions, not anticlimactic elimination of key boss monsters. So boost the bosses as needed to ensure they're not vulnerable to quick destruction from the turn undead ability. Then, make sure there are some hordes of undead minions who ARE vulnerable so the cleric still feels like he's getting to use his ability.
I have a multi-classed cleric in our party that has levels of radiant servant or pelor and levels of some other shining light of something or other. When I read the title of the post, I was expecting you to say one thing, and instead you talked about something else.
What I thought you would complain about is the ability to glow, and shoot as a standard action for 10 rounds per glow, the Sunbeam spell. This ability alone has nearly unbalanced the game as it is devestating to undead due to the ability to blind its opponents with a failed Reflex save. Although many BBEGs have extrasensory abilitles, I frequently have to consider nerfing this ability to maintain a challenge.
i don't have the book in front of me, but isn't there a spell in the SC that blocks a cleric's ability to turn? that right there on the BBEG would help you out.
also i would suggest trying to get the cleric to use up his turn attempts before the climatic battle. maybe send a large wave of low level undead at him. that way the player feels good about destroying tuns of undead and you don't have to nerf his character to much.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Someone posted a similar dilemna in the SCAP regarding the Knight of the Chalice in such a planar themed campaign. My response there was that if a player choses to specialize to such an extent, they should be allowed to reap the benefit of that particular specialization. Having your players respond to your campaign by building their characters to overcome the challenges you present shows that you have engaged them.
That being said, turning is a pain in the butt game mechanic. It's annoying to have to go chase down the undead and it's so swingy. Either you have a challenging encounter or you have no encounter. I use the variant turning rules from Complete Divine (make a turning check to see what undead you effect, then do your d6 x your level in damage to all undead in a 30' burst, they get will save for half DC = 10 + cleric level (or maybe 1/2 cleric level) + Cha bonus).
I really appreciate the feedback here. I have gone and reexamined the clerics character sheet and discovered that he has some 3.0 stuff on there (House rule for only 3.5). The assistant DM and I have asked him to make the necessary changes. Also, I took the advice from this post and now that level has been desecrated and the end boss has turn resistance. I did this to make the final battle a little more memorable and fun for all. Note: Any beings "created" by the boss do not have either benefit.
I personally don't like the variant turning rule since I can't really foresee how my players will abuse that rule. Also, I have already used the other rule in previous adventures in this campaign so I think it wouldn't flow too well.
Once again, thanks all.
BTW.. the creature has 17 Hd and he could have turned it. A quick follow up question would be can you use an action point, running in Eberron, to add to your turn check?
The Radiant Servant will not be a problem at later adventures. By the time you hit Spire of the Long Shadows, the HD of the undead rises to significant levels and the number of undead encountered per encounter goes up as well.
So, at best, he will turn a one or two of the higher level undead, then the remaining undead will (as I play them), single him out for elimination with extreme predjuice.
Not to mention, in the later adventures, most of the Kyuss spawn have turn resistance and other abilities to limit turning. Unhallow features in quite a number of adventure locations.
In short, you will not need to limit the Radiant Servant. He may look buff right now but once he hits the adventures with the hordes of uber undead, he will wish he was in another line of work.
I agree, Turn undead isn't as usefull as I thought it would be, even maxxed out in the Spire, you have to #1, get a good turning roll, and at the same time roll good damage, this one was the killer, lots of times even maxxed out turning barely damaged the Undead, they are all turn resistant, and so have a turning check of around 16 at minimum!
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In short, you will not need to limit the Radiant Servant. He may look buff right now but once he hits the adventures with the hordes of uber undead, he will wish he was in another line of work.
Agreed...the only turning our gnome 6th level cleric/7th Radiant did in Spire of Long Shadows was to get turned to stone in thw sword archon room.
One more thing, Lots of the spells in BoED, and some of the other FR books were more usefull. Plus remember anything that forces a fortitude save is good against undead.
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The Radiant Servant will not be a problem at later adventures.
You're forgetting mass heal from a high level radiant servant. Far better than turning. a 8th level Clr/10th rad. servant inflicts huge damage with this spell when he casts it on, say, Kyuss Chimeras...empower mass healing = no udnead nearby....
I have a Radiant Servant in my game as well. I did not allow him the phylactery of undead turning to avoid this very issue- I didn't want him to destroy the Ulgarstasta in one action! I'll be the first to admit the class is pretty broken, but at least the concept is rather cool.
So far he still does not have a Phylactery, but looking at the Spire of Long Shadows, I'm thinking it might be okay if he had it. Of course, if things get too bad for the Kyuss minions then I might have to sprinkle in some feats off the Liber Mortis book. Necromantic Presence adds +4 to the turning resistance of a all undead within 60ft. That alone undoes the effects of the Phylactery.
Compared to a normal cleric, a Radiant Servant both heals and turns undead far more effectively. Enough to potentially disrupt the flow of an undead-heavy AP. No one should simply turn and destroy Dragotha with a turning check and be done with him!
hey guys I'm new to the thread and I am not trying to thread jack but I have a question for any DM that has run AoW.
My DM wants to run it and I am trying to decide on a charecter.
I was going to play a cleric and I was honestly looking at radiant servant of pelor but then I wanted to do something diffrent and decided to try a cleric of nerull instead.
My question is for those who have run the game already would a cleric that Controls the undead break or make the game too easy?
I am trying to help my DM by not making my normal unbalanced charecter because none of us have ever played in greyhawk before and we wanted to try something diffrent. Thanks for any help.
hey guys I'm new to the thread and I am not trying to thread jack but I have a question for any DM that has run AoW.
My DM wants to run it and I am trying to decide on a charecter.
I was going to play a cleric and I was honestly looking at radiant servant of pelor but then I wanted to do something diffrent and decided to try a cleric of nerull instead.
My question is for those who have run the game already would a cleric that Controls the undead break or make the game too easy?I am trying to help my DM by not making my normal unbalanced charecter because none of us have ever played in greyhawk before and we wanted to try something diffrent. Thanks for any help.
Well, from a purely fluff aspect, in Greyhawk if a cleric is known to worship Nerull they will be attacked on sight.
My question is for those who have run the game already would a cleric that Controls the undead break or make the game too easy?
Well, I would not be reading too much more of this board if you are going to be a player in the game. I think all secrets are revealed here!
On your question, I have had a cleric of Wee Jas in our game that was able to command not turn undead. It was fascinating at the lower levels (zombie meat shields lumbering through caves, etc). There are a lot of good backstory elements in the AoW Overload and in some of the campaign setting areas, giving the DM much to draw on to enrich the story.
But then, of course, like almost all the characters in the campaign, he died. And now no one commands undead anymore.
Two important things to remember about turning that come from PHB p. 159:
(1) Range: You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can't turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you.
I haven't played AoW, but any game I've ever played that had high-level undead, had scads of low-level fodder. A Radiant Servant of Pelor will help the party get to BBEG with more resources intact, but I don't see her having the turns left to send Dragotha cowering in one action. But, that's up to the DM to make that happen. The Radiant Servant gets to be essential, but doesn't ruin the fun for the other players.
(2) Bolstering Undead: An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the Hit Dice result on Table 8-9: Turning Undead becomes the undead creatures' effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned (provided the result is higher than the creatures' actual Hit Dice). The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner.
This would stack with desecrate and turn resistance. It might provide just the extra little bit you need to keep the Radiant Servant from glowing too brightly.
About the whole maximized, empowered healing though: yeah, yer kinda screwed there. However, you don't squash a Rogue for being too sneaky, or a bard for being too musical, so don't jump on the cleric for being able to heal/turn well.
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Greetings all,
I am dming a group that is transitioning into AoW at a higher level, Champion's Belt, and one of my players had to move away which, in turn, caused another player to change characters to provide the party with a cleric. I made an error and pointed out that the party did not have anyone to turn undead (that's the last time I ever give a hint about anything... shame on me for metagaming). The new cleric, who hasn't played a cleric in 12 years, comes back to me with a Radiant Servant of Pelor. At first, I was welcoming to this character and the character's concept and background, he was the sole survivor of a tpk involving a group that had worked up through the adventures in AoW to try the party into AoW. Last night before I fell asleep, which is when I have my momentary bouts of intelligence, I realize that as a 10th level character he would be able to turn as a 20th level character, i.e. 10 + 4 (great roll) + 1 (improved turning) + 4 (phylactery of undead turning). Now for those of you who know, this can be somewhat of a problem at the end of Champion's Belt. Also, what do I do at later modules when the undead are more powerful but so is he. At 20th level, he could turn a 30 hd monster with a few feats and magic items.
What do I do?
Does anything need to be done?
Am I over-reacting?
Wow, seems like de-ja-vu. That's exactly what I played, and when I came into my DM's game. We didn't think it was a game breaker. Yeah, my life was much easier than most other players in the game. I was immune to disease, and therefore immune to some of the deadliest attacks of the Kyuss spawns. Plus, my turning ability was VERY useful, especially when combined with the magic items I took (used the Magic Item Compendium). I can send you the final character sheet if you want to see where he ended up.
But did it break the game? No. I was still the only cleric in a party of 9, and spent almost all of my time running around the battle healing. A cleric of pelor is a very powerful prestige class in this AP, but I don't think it was a game breaker. My abilities were useless in the adventure where the party enters a war between giants and dragons. And there were plenty of undead that I couldn't simply overcome. Your cleric will have his time in the spotlight, but he shouldn't "break" your game.
And, yes, you can use the ebberron action point to modify the turn check, since it is a d20 roll. But, the highest a cleric can go is +4 cleric level, no matter how high their final roll is.
Well, from a purely fluff aspect, in Greyhawk if a cleric is known to worship Nerull they will be attacked on sight.hey guys I'm new to the thread and I am not trying to thread jack but I have a question for any DM that has run AoW.
My DM wants to run it and I am trying to decide on a charecter.
I was going to play a cleric and I was honestly looking at radiant servant of pelor but then I wanted to do something diffrent and decided to try a cleric of nerull instead.
My question is for those who have run the game already would a cleric that Controls the undead break or make the game too easy?I am trying to help my DM by not making my normal unbalanced charecter because none of us have ever played in greyhawk before and we wanted to try something diffrent. Thanks for any help.
Turns out I'm playing the wizard in the group and so far 4th lvl I am one of two original charecter left. The first death was the cleric of wee jass to the elevator trap then the bugs ate the body. Then the next death was to a crit from the wind golem things at the end of WC.
The boar at the #faces of Evil is now my undead zombie minon as well as the half orc cleric. I call'em porky #1 and #2. My DM hates it but hey I used the scroll in the game instead of selling them.My question is this, Can whorshippers of vecna do so openly or do they have to hide. I have plans that when I kill all the heritics in the temple of vecna to turn it into a center of whorship for all his faithful. This is the first time any of us have ever played greyhawk so we dont know what the laws are concerning the evil gods. Can anybody help. Most of us charecters are evil aligned if that makes any diffrence.
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Turns out I'm playing the wizard in the group and so far 4th lvl I am one of two original charecter left. The first death was the cleric of wee jass to the elevator trap then the bugs ate the body. Then the next death was to a crit from the wind golem things at the end of WC.
The boar at the #faces of Evil is now my undead zombie minon as well as the half orc cleric. I call'em porky #1 and #2. My DM hates it but hey I used the scroll in the game instead of selling them.My question is this, Can whorshippers of vecna do so openly or do they have to hide. I have plans that when I kill all the heritics in the temple of vecna to turn it into a center of whorship for all his faithful. This is the first time any of us have ever played greyhawk so we dont know what the laws are concerning the evil gods. Can anybody help. Most of us charecters are evil aligned if that makes any diffrence.
Don't have books with me but pretty sure part of Vecna's portfolio is Secrets. A publicly known temple would be a bad idea. Also with the secrets portofolio and the fact he is CE (he might be NE but pretty sure it's not) there tend to be alot of different, often competing, sects in his church. However there is some interesting back story on his part of the complex but not sure if your DM is using it. If he is, that could open a whole other can of worms. If he sticks to the published adventures though, let's just say that there is some interesting stuff for you as a vecna worshipper later on. I'll leave it at that ;)