|
30th Anniversary Super-Sized Spectacular Issue! Well, spectacular was not quite right. The articles were 'OK', but what pissed me off was the back spread of adds we shelled out our $ for. TWELVE pages of full-page hocking...COME ON, GUYS! I haunt this site and WOTC daily....I'm sure all the loyal readers will agree we can do without the crap we can find in fliers at the local hobby store. I don't mind regular adds, but 12 extra add pages in a 'giant' issue is a rip off and I expect better. Why not call the issue 30th Anniversary Issue with Super-Sized Spectacular Adds you'll be happy to pay extra for!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
30th Anniversary Super-Sized Spectacular Issue! Well, spectacular was not quite right. The articles were 'OK', but what pissed me off was the back spread of adds we shelled out our $ for. TWELVE pages of full-page hocking...COME ON, GUYS! I haunt this site and WOTC daily....I'm sure all the loyal readers will agree we can do without the crap we can find in fliers at the local hobby store. I don't mind regular adds, but 12 extra add pages in a 'giant' issue is a rip off and I expect better. Why not call the issue 30th Anniversary Issue with Super-Sized Spectacular Adds you'll be happy to pay extra for!
I'm going to withhold my normal snotty reply, which a post like this warrants, and just say that the extra pages of ads appear quarterly and are always in addition to the normal page count of Dragon. 344 was supersized without regard to the buyer's guide. The extra price was not for the ads, it was for the content. See:
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/newRefitte dDragonFirstImpression&page=2#938
Flip through some back issues if you want to double check. You will see that a) they have the Buyer's Guide, b) they have extra pages and c) there is no extra charge.
This should be in a FAQ or something.
|
This is not quite right. First off, single issues normallycome at a cost of U.S. $ 6.99, while #344 costed U.S. $8.99 (here in Germany, it is 9€ compared to 7€). So if that isn't an extra charge (don't know how abonnements got handled ).
And what I did for a #344 review, was exactly what you suggested: to compare the editorial content's size of this issue with that of an older issue, namely #343. To define what I mean with editorial content: I included the editorial, first watch, the comic strips and I count pages with artwork as well , so basically I subtracted only full-ad-pages.
So I counted:
total page count : 130 (#344) – 98 (#343)
editorial content: 108 - 77 (D&D Buyers Guide included)
Seems fair, but if you subtract the Buyer's Guide, it is 92 – 77. And it may be just my opinion but the NWN2 preview as well as the GenCon preview falls under (rather useless) advertisment as well. Another 10 pages to subtract (82-77). So in fact, I had to pay two extra Dollars to get 5 additional pages of content. Quite a price increase in my opinion.
And another thing. I really enjoy the occasional story, and I have to admit that it was the same with the stories by Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood and Bruce Heard . But those three articles make another 23 pages with no direct in-game use (apart from Mr. Greenwoods three spells). Which means that for people who don't like stories in DRAGON, there is less potentially useful content in this issue, not more as they had the right to expect.
What I would expext in a giant-sized issue in additional contents are things like the awesome Dreadhold-article or the nothing-but-great ecology of the dracolich (kudos to Greg A. Vaughn and Richard Pett). But with respect to these kind of things, there was absolutely nothing to find.
Don't take me wrong: I don't mind the Buyer's Guide though I prefer looking on the WotC-homepage for this kind of information. I don't mind CRPG-reviews and I don't mind things like the GenCon-preview either. And I especially don't mind stories in the DRAGON's pages.
But to put all this stuff together in one single issue may be a bit to much. And especially in an anniversary issue, I expect the additional content to be of use for the players, not of use for the industry.
In fact, this is the first issue I have to critizise, since Mr. Mona has taken the editorial reigns and I'm glad that it is not for the overall article's quality. But I do hope, that the next special issue will take another approach because, compared to my high expectations this one was a bit disappointing.
yours, WQ
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Excellent analysis WQ, you make some good points. If the OP had come out with such a well reasoned and intelligent post, he would have gotten a more polite response. I hate people telling me that I should be outraged, particularly when they haven't supported the outrage with some sort of persuasive argument.
That being said, I don't think its entirely fair to count the Gen Con and NWN2 previews as advertisements. They may not have been of use to you (particularly an article about a convention in another continent), but there are segments of the audience to whom they appeal. I could argue that the Dreadhold article should not be counted because it's Eberron content that I won't use, and those pages should be disregarded in a head to head comparison.
Whether the magazine should include the Gen Con or NWN2 previews is worth discussing, as is the general quality of the issue, but the argument that the extra cost of the issue was for the Buyer's Guide is wrong.
Sorry to agree with the nay-sayers, but I found the giant 30th anniversary issue to be rather ho-hum. I didn't get to see anything really eye catching. I've never liked the big ads...sorry, but they are a complete waste of space. I understand the need for them though, we all gotta pay the bills. For the 30th anniversary, I expected something to jump out at me. Nothing did. I enjoyed a few of the articles, I usually do. Don't get me wrong, it's an issue worth having, but for what was expected, I felt let down. (moch like the April issue...but don't get me started)
I too found this issue somewhat lacking for the reasons outline above. As far as the GenCon preview goes, I believe I remember (although I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was a "Special Advertising Section" so it probably shouldn't be counted as actual content in any case.
LOVED the Dreadhold article.
Peace,
Galen
I would have rathered more "crunch" and a lot less "fluff".
I think the "catalogue" section should have been saved for a latter issue (345) and those pages be used for something to help our games and gaming more, like some short articles, more class acts, or even blasts from the pasts funny cartoons.
During down times at the gamig table, chuckling over the cartoons is a fun way to cool off after an intense encounter (or stave off boredom).
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
As far as the GenCon preview goes, I believe I remember (although I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was a "Special Advertising Section" so it probably shouldn't be counted as actual content in any case.
You're right. It does say special advertising section - I missed that. The NWN2 section does not. That does increase the ad count by 6 pages and add validity to the argument that the price to content ratio was too high.
I think the "catalogue" section should have been saved for a latter issue (345) and those pages be used for something to help our games and gaming more, like some short articles, more class acts, or even blasts from the pasts funny cartoons.
Sigh. Not that I don't agree that more gaming related articles are better than more gaming related advertisements, but try reading the thread I quoted above. The Buyer's Guide is a bonus section. Either those pages have the Buyer's Guide or they don't exist. The choice is not between Buyer's Guide and other content, it's between Buyer's Guide and fewer pages.
And for the record, I am not and have not suggested that this was a good issue. I agree that it was a disappointing issue for such a milestone. The 100th issue of Dungeon was much better. However, the point that I have been making is that saying that you paid extra for the ads in the Buyer's Guide is factually incorrect. You did not pay extra for the Buyer's Guide, you paid extra for the 15 pages (or heck, maybe 9 pages if you take out the Gen Con preview). If you want to argue that those 9 pages were not worth the extra money, knock yourself out, I'm inclined to agree with your point.
So, one last time for those playing along at home:
THE BUYER'S GUIDE IS A QUARTERLY FEATURE
THE BUYER'S GUIDE IS NOT WHAT MAKES THIS ISSUE GIANT SIZED
Please, people, invest some skill points in decipher script.
As far as the GenCon preview goes, I believe I remember (although I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was a "Special Advertising Section" so it probably shouldn't be counted as actual content in any case.
You're right. It does say special advertising section - I missed that. The NWN2 section does not. That does increase the ad count by 6 pages and add validity to the argument that the price to content ratio was too high.
I think the "catalogue" section should have been saved for a latter issue (345) and those pages be used for something to help our games and gaming more, like some short articles, more class acts, or even blasts from the pasts funny cartoons.
Sigh. Not that I don't agree that more gaming related articles are better than more gaming related advertisements, but try reading the thread I quoted above. The Buyer's Guide is a bonus section. Either those pages have the Buyer's Guide or they don't exist. The choice is not between Buyer's Guide and other content, it's between Buyer's Guide and fewer pages.
And for the record, I am not and have not suggested that this was a good issue. I agree that it was a disappointing issue for such a milestone. The 100th issue of Dungeon was much better. However, the point that I have been making is that saying that you paid extra for the ads in the Buyer's Guide is factually incorrect. You did not pay extra for the Buyer's Guide, you paid extra for the 15 pages (or heck, maybe 9 pages if you take out the Gen Con preview). If you want to argue that those 9 pages were not worth the extra money, knock yourself out, I'm inclined to agree with your point.
So, one last time for those playing along at home:
THE BUYER'S GUIDE IS A QUARTERLY FEATURE
THE BUYER'S GUIDE IS NOT WHAT MAKES THIS ISSUE GIANT SIZED
Please, people, invest some skill points in decipher script.
Uh...Sorry, fella.
Didn't mean to imply quoting you, as I was not. I was chiming in on the thoughts of the original poster, not responding to your posts (as I did not read them).
I'm just sharing my 2 cents and saying instead of the catalogue pages - which are okay in their own way, but I can do without those pages - I'd have rather seen content.
Sure, the catalogue pages are advertising, which means it helps pay Paizo's bills. But, like on TV, I'd rather less ads and more content.
I'd rather have had less ads and more content in isue 344.
This was just idle banter, and wishful thinking, okay?
Now why don't YOU go invest some skill points in diplomacy?
Sheesh!
I care not a whit about the Buyers Guide, or ad count in general, so long as the ad-to-content ratio remains consistent. If I know that every extra 3 ad pages = 1 content page, or what-have-you, that's fine (and I'd opt for more ads then). I don't mind paying for extra content via ads.
That aside, I'm sorry to say I too found #344 to be rather ho-hum and very crunch-light. (The Wizards Three -- and I love Greenwood's articles typically -- is an example; it seemed padded -- I couldn't wait for the description of the wizards being gluttons to end so I could finally get to something interesting.)
|
|
Now why don't YOU go invest some skill points in diplomacy?
In defense of Sebastian, he brought this undisputably correct argument two times before, and I can understand that it's a bit unnerving if you get ignored and the wrong argument is repeated instead.
To correct my former post, I shouldn't have called the NWN-preview and the GenCOn-Previes "rather useless". I know that there may be a lot of people who can profit of these articles one way or the other. The difference with respect to the other articles I tried to make was that I couldn't find anything with the potential to help improving my games.
That is a difference to stories, artwork or things like the Dreadhold-Article. Stories and artwork, while not directly helpful, can surely bring my brains to work, so at least I find inspiration, if nothing else. And while I'll probably never use the Dreadhold-article in an Eberron-campaign, I'll definitively adapt the prison to my homebrew-campaign.
In fact, I didn't care for the higher price of the anniversary issue (I don't care for the newest price increase either, the Mag is worth its money). It's just that I had expected a bit more usable content in a special issue
Now why don't YOU go invest some skill points in diplomacy?
You must be new here. Consider this part of Sebastian's "charm."
1. It's cross-class for trolls.
2. Intimidate is more useful.
3. Charisma is my dump stat anyway.
Funniest. Post. Ever.
Anyways, as to the crunch vs fluff thing, I normally come down on the "crunch" side. Either way, I don't really care for those tags, since fluff comes across as a perjorative term.
With that in mind, I prefer my "fluff" or whatever you may call it, from certain authors. I was not impressed with the Wizard's three, but Gord is always fun, even though I am not a fan of fiction in Dragon. However, in past articles, like Core faiths and the Demonomicon, I enjoyed the "fluff" much more than the "crunch."
From a publisher's standpoint, I bet Gygax and Greenwood drew some extra sales along with the Anniversary.
Also, being an anniversary, they had to include classic features.
That being said, it was a good issue. I personally liked the quarterly buying guide, because I like to see some of the cool new stuff coming out.
Best issue ever? No. Good issue? Definitely. Some issues cater perfectly to what you like, and others don't.
P.S. I don't believe "adds" is the correct way to shorten advertisment. Since there is only one 'd', it should be "ads." I think.
That being said, it was a good issue. I personally liked the quarterly buying guide, because I like to see some of the cool new stuff coming out.
Best issue ever? No. Good issue? Definitely. Some issues cater perfectly to what you like, and others don't.
I must disagree. In my opinion, #344 is the weakest issue in two years. I'm not concerned about the number of ads, especially since (as noted) the Buyer's Guide was a 'freebie'. Also, I'm not concerned by the price increase, since as a subscriber I was immune to it.
However, the key features of the magazine were a big let down:
A Gord the Rogue story. Firstly, it's fiction, which I would not mourn if it were removed from the magazine entirely. Secondly, while well-written, it was also pretty cliched. As I noted in another thread, the plot line was "thief robs noble; something goes wrong". This plotline was featured in several Conan stories.
The Voyage of the Princess Ark. Another fiction piece, this one for a discontinued setting. The problem here is that it doesn't give enough information to do any more than tease about the setting, doesn't appreciably add to the lore of Mystara, and is generally wasted space IMO.
"The Wizards Three". This was a good series, once upon a time. This installment? Nope. I really don't have any interest in hearing about Elminster and Mordenkainen eating. I'm quite capable of doing that myself. But, where previous installments featured them talking about their latest adventures, and the goings-on in their home worlds, and bragging about the spells they're sharing (of which there used to be more than three), this episode did not.
The Eberron article was good (although setting-specific), and the Ecology was fantastic, as always.
However, as a whole, #344 left me underwhelmed. On the plus side, it made me appreciate #345 a whole lot more, as the new issue is a stunning return to form.
First off let me say that i have felt well-informed by this thread and I'd like to thank everyone for keeping this thread a friendly one. Now for some howevers.
I think almost everyone can agree this issue didn't have anybody jumping up from their seats with excitement. But it wasn't a horrible failure either. I am afraid though that if this the big issue is the one issue that a new reader picks up this year it won't be enough to draw him in.
I have subscirbed for two years now. I have come across many issues that if I wanted to get a new person hooked I would give them this is not it and this is a major problem. This issue is a milestone this issue is more likely to be bought by more people than alot of issues are.
This issue fails to sell itself and more importantly to sell Dragon magazone. I know if I as a new reader or a returning reader picked up this issue ad read it through I wouldn't be impressed enough to buy more. thats my big problem with it.
Now against all those dreadhold naysayers out there. Why, oh, why will you not give eberron a chance? Maybe it doesn't suit you , you don't like its flavor, but don't count keith baker out. He's an innovator. He does things with the space he's given in a magazine or a book that will get your creative motors running.
There are so many ideas in that article and dreadhold an island in the middle of nowhere with amazing innovative magical defenses can be put into any campaign play down the technology a little and take out the house of kundarak influence.
I just hope that you are all intelligent and openminded enough to give eberron, its creator, and his ideas a chance to roll around in your mind a little. You may never use eberron as a whole but I'm sure you'll extrapolate alot of ideas from it.
I have never been very into forgotten realms but I stil pick up a realms book from time to time, an sourcebook, a novel, a mag article, just to see what ideas are in there that are good.
So... uh... yeah those are my thoughts... thanks for your time.
J
...this issue didn't have anybody jumping up from their seats with excitement.
J
I did--at the cover anyway. O:) Thought maybe it should be turned into a poster size pic. If not, maybe centerfold size, in which case I would back it and use it as a counter. Imagine the dragon-fear dropping that onto the battle mat would inspire *grin*
craft (scapbooking)--class skill for everyone (even trolls :)
I did--at the cover anyway. O:)
Yeah, that cover was something special.
Compared to a typical issue, I thought it was decent, if a little lacking in substance. As a "special" issue of any kind, let alone the much-hyped 30th anniversary super-sized issue, I'm afraid I consider #344 nothing less than a dismal failure. The only articles remotely relevent to the game were the planar dragons and Dreadhold - I'm extremely disappointed that familiars like Spellcraft and Bazaar of the Bizarre were left out in favour of junk like a computer game preview I could have read on Gamespot. I'm not crazy about fiction in Dragon in general, but even there I've read much better than the mediocre stuff in #344; the Mystara story is utterly boring without knowledge of the setting to give it context, and the Wizards Three "story" about people eating messily isn't worth a canadian cent, let alone the familiars it displaced.
If I weren't a subscriber, I wouldn't have bought this issue even at the regular price - I would have read through it at Chapters, made a few notes about Dreadhold and the Anagakok, and walked away with a full wallet.
|
|
I was disappointed with issue 344.
I was extremely disappointed with it considering I had heard it was going to be an extra large issue.
Dreadhold was the only redeeming feature in my mind. Many other features weren't bad, but there was no excitement in the issue. Other than Dreadhold, there was nothing I wanted to take with me from the magazine (and I don't use Eberron).
Now, 345 was an amazing issue. If I had gotten that in place of 344 I would have been happy. Every time I start thinking I'm done with the subscription, you put together a top-notch issue to keep me on board.
The planar dragons were the real stars of the issue. ;)
Seriously, they were quite good. I especially liked the gloom dragon, and the corresponding artwork was fantastic.
I have to agree with the majority of the posts that the issue was a disappointment. I keep getting up the gumption to subscribe and then they come out with this half-baked stuff. That said I did enjoy Dreadhold, and the planar dragons article was fun. I do wonder how many more kinds of dragons the D&D cosmology can handle, but who doesn't enjoy the idea of a dragon with an intoxicating breath weapon ( hooray for Elysian Dragons!). After that though, this Big Anniversary issue was smaller than previous dragon issues from only a few years ago, and that was with the ads AND the "extra content." I just hope that future issues will have more content and less wasted space.
Actually, I thought the issue a bit dull, but hey, maybe that is just me; I was just elated to have recieved the issue :)The most interesting part of the last several issues has been upcomming fiction, go figure, though I always scrutinize the rule clarifications; that alone makes any issue worth having. The dragons were neither here nor there for me; I read them all and pondered them a bit, but nothing really stands out as if to say; wow I want to put that in my game. To me, a dragon, regardless of alignment, should be a terror inducing, memorable event that a party should approach with trepidation. Perhaps I write on this too soon, as I usually read articles many times before I comment on them and I only read this once so far. I wanted to dragon comments to have more motivational details and suggestions of how to use it in a campaign to makes its particulars stand out. No monster should just be the sum of its stats. The information on why a party would seek out these dragons or why any such dragon might seek out a certain type of character or party just wasn't there. Dragons, being the top of the food chain, don't really need a lot of variety. I suppose on a plane of dragons or a world really full of dragons, variety would be nice; but to make this article worthwhile to me a world would need a lot of dragons. In my world there are only 7 that the current party has discovered; 3 more they heard of, 1 more they suspect and they didnt fight any of them. Makes you curious about how many dragons other gms have in there games and how they impact the game. Would be curious to hear from other gms about the usefulness of the dragon articles.
Right up until I read this thread, I was completely contented by the issue. Now, I kinda feel "less good" about the purchase as, yes, it was mainly fiction and advertisements. Funny how mob mentality works like that.
I think the main thing, initially, is that I didn't know the issue was bigger than the rest. I just go to the magazine shop and get it because it's something I get. *shrug* Paizo didn;t have any special promises or aspirations to fulfill for me. They just need to fill a few hours for me during the day.
Dreadhold was insanely awesome, though too use-specific for me. I read it a few times. I found it easy to escape into just the concept and daydream a bit, so it was worth it.
The Wizards Three, I read about as many times. I found the spells a bit bland. Still a nice read anyways. It entertained me. I found it easy to escape into the concept and daydream a bit, so it was worth it.
I didn't really read the Planar Dragons all that closely. But the dragon with gravestones on its back was a cool idea. I found it easy to escape into the concept and daydream a bit, so it was worth it.
The Gord one and the other fiction weren't what I'd call top fantasy fare, but I don't miss the time used to read them, and I don't regret buying the magazine. I found it easy to escape into the concept and daydream a bit, so it was worth it.
I guess the main thing that would determine one's satisfaction with the issue would be their purchasing intent. If it's bought as a rules supplemental, like a Handbook, then yeah, it missed that. But, if its bought as a means to simply escape one's dreary existance, like a Popular Mechanics or Heavy Metal, it met that easily. I found it easy to escape into the concept and daydream a bit, so it was worth it.