Hi my 10th level players are playing in AOW right now. The warlock in our group has been doing very well, and I don't begrudge him that, but the other players are starting to feel that the warlock is over powered, and some of them have said they would never choose a wizard after this. I don't see it that way, I look at the wizard spells and say wow, a warlock cant do any of this.
I want to show my players an encounter where the warlock is at the end of the stick. I don't want it to be obvious but I am just looking for something in my campaign to highlight a warlocks weaknesses.
One of the thing that really annoys me is that their are so many enemies in AOW that will spy on the chars and then cast resist energy of the type that mage uses. What if that enemy wanted to resist an eldritch blast? What would it cast?
Any Ideas?
Warlocks are not particularly good at fighting each other. If your party warlock cannot see invisibile, I'd go with another warlock with the "walk unseen" power. Blast, then disappear. All the other abilities mentioned (entropic shield, summon swarm, insect plague) are available to warlocks. And if your warlock can turn invisibile, give the other warlock "see the unseen".
I want to show my players an encounter where the warlock is at the end of the stick. I don't want it to be obvious but I am just looking for something in my campaign to highlight a warlocks weaknesses.
I'm about to start a campaign as a warlock. I like the idea of the eldritch blast, which can't be countered by a protection from elements spell. Just sit back, avoid melee, and blast away. Eventually incorporate some nifty invocations to keep things exciting. But one thing that worries me is spell resistance or a globe of invulnerability, which could render the blast useless. The warlock seems kinda like a one trick pony, and I don't want to see that trick nullified.
I also realize how important Dexterity is to both AC and ranged eldritch blast attacks. So anything that hurts my dex would scare me, like certain poisons or an anti-dex version of a ray of enfeeblement.
My AoW campaign experienced the exact same thing. Initially the warlock dominated or was noticably more effective than the other party members. Lately the warlock's player has been feeling his character has 'topped out' though, and the rest of the party is noticing that things have levelled out.
We've just completed the 'Library of Last Resort' and the warlock is just shy of level 18. The warlock seemed to stop dominating around 15. Luckily the player of the warlock is a good roleplayer & never lorded his power above the others in the early levels. With 3 mages in the party, what was a little discouraging could've created animosity ;-)
Your mages will start outshining him around level 14, and definitely by 16. They'll probably have a different opinion of the warlock then.
Chris
Spell resistance is the key to combatting warlocks, so go with a few demons and devils (if the party is around 10th-level have them come up against a pair of vrocks or a single barbed devil and watch the warlock howl in frustration as his blasts fail). Golems with their immunity to magic are even better because they are completely immune to an eldritch blast. Give the party 3 flesh golems to fight and watch the warlock have to resort to his dagger, club, spear, etc.
A warlocks blasts don't function in an antimagic area, and is a ranged touch attack normally, so anything that increases the warlock's chances to miss is good. Displacement and blink are really nice spells for this, and unless he has that dispel invocation or a suitable wand are impossible for him to get rid of.
If he doesn't have the Precise Shot feat remember the -4 to hitting in melee. Even if he has that feat remember to think about cover. Cover gives a +4 bonus to AC.
Numbers. Warlocks aren't good against masses of targets. A 10th-level wizard with the right spells can take out 30 gnolls with ease. The warlock generally has to kill them one at a time unless he has the right invocations (such as that Eldritch Cone invocation). Remember, the warlock can only fire one eldritch blast per round regardless of his Base Attack Bonus. Surround him with foes and watch the carnage fly (remember that eldritch blast is usually a range attack. Deny him range and you make him much more vulnerable).
Spell resistance is the key to combatting warlocks, so go with a few demons and devils (if the party is around 10th-level have them come up against a pair of vrocks or a single barbed devil and watch the warlock howl in frustration as his blasts fail). Golems with their immunity to magic are even better because they are completely immune to an eldritch blast.
Remember that Vitriolic Blast (a greater invocation) changes the Eldritch Blast such that it doesn't allow Spell Resistance. Only thing that saves you there is a high touch AC or Acid resistance. Golem Immunities don't function against spells that don't allow SR, so... really, the things that will screw up a high level Warlock are numbers, anti-magic field, and smart tactics. He turns invisible? Glitterdust. The Archer readies an action to shoot him when he starts to use an Invocation. Iron Bands of Bilarro will screw *anybody* up. Likewise, grappling will screw him up in a hurry.
Are there any good prestige classes for warlocks? Particularly ones that give him some versatility, even if it is at the expense of a little power?
Warlocks are not particularly good at fighting each other. If your party warlock cannot see invisibile, I'd go with another warlock with the "walk unseen" power. Blast, then disappear. All the other abilities mentioned (entropic shield, summon swarm, insect plague) are available to warlocks. And if your warlock can turn invisibile, give the other warlock "see the unseen".
This just highlights how awsomely powerful Warlocks are to the other players. I mean they are so powerful that only another Warlock can best them or so it seems to the already annoyed players.
Proof positive of the brokenness of warlocks. The eldritch blast is an attack that rarely misses, does a lot of damage, and requires very little strategy or combat know-how to implement. The plain fact is that the eldritch blast pretty much completely unbalances the class.
A fifth level warlock is looking at dealing 3d6 damage every round, with a ranged touch. Ranged touch! Screw your armor. Would you give your fifth level fighter a flaming greatsword that ignores armor? Hell no! At least a fighter must wade into combat. The best spells a 5th level wizard can muster might deal 5d6 damage to an area, but it gives saves and is limited uses per day. A warlock does not allow for saves, and does not have to risk his or her skin, and can do it over and over again.
I do like the idea of the warlock as a class, but this is off the charts. The class pretty much runs roughshod over most games.
The people here have good ideas to slow one down, but the power of the class cannot be regularly dealt with. I have a better solution to your problem: ban warlocks from the game. I have seen every otehr class from the complete books played, and seen their balance, but the warlock is a menace.
Spell resistance is the key to combatting warlocks, so go with a few demons and devils (if the party is around 10th-level have them come up against a pair of vrocks or a single barbed devil and watch the warlock howl in frustration as his blasts fail). Golems with their immunity to magic are even better because they are completely immune to an eldritch blast.Remember that Vitriolic Blast (a greater invocation) changes the Eldritch Blast such that it doesn't allow Spell Resistance. Only thing that saves you there is a high touch AC or Acid resistance. Golem Immunities don't function against spells that don't allow SR, so... really, the things that will screw up a high level Warlock are numbers, anti-magic field, and smart tactics. He turns invisible? Glitterdust. The Archer readies an action to shoot him when he starts to use an Invocation. Iron Bands of Bilarro will screw *anybody* up. Likewise, grappling will screw him up in a hurry.
Of course you have to have that invocation for it to work, and most demons and devils at least have some acid resistance. You are also right about the golem thing, but again you have to have the invocation. I actually think that the vitriolic blast is too powerful, but that's just me.
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In a word - deflection. The key to having a high touch AC is high DEX and a high deflection bonus. A Potion of Shield of Faith should do the trick cheaply.
If the warlock lurks at the back, which he/she probably does, then surprise attacks from behind might be good. Grappling, as noted above, would also calm him down a bit, so how about a creature with Improved Grab or maybe even Swallow Whole (though that is everyone's nightmare). And I doubt he has Evasion, so a simple bit of area effect should give him pause for thought.
I remember a similar thread when the subject was along the lines of psionics being too powerful, and how to deal with a PC telepath. With characters of this sort, if you let them stand at the back and just do their stuff, they will be powerful. But you don't want to stop them doing what they are good at, because that is why they created the character.
You need to address the tactics of the situation. If the rest of the party effectively screen the warlock, then you need to look at how to disrupt the "business as usual" routine in the encounters. If you mix it up, and they still come out on top, then great - that's teamwork. If not, the it's a lesson for them. And either way, it is fun for you as DM to put them in that situation and see if they can squirm out.
Warlocks are powerful, but a bit limited. Yes, a kick-ass ranged touch attack each round is powerful, but a rogue does tons of damage with a sneak attack, and can do that damage on each attack per round. And warlock invocations are good, but not that good. It's all relative.
One of the players in my group (Sexi Golem on these boards) absolutely hates warlocks for their limited range of abilities. He thinks they are underpowered. They get one thing that they do well, their blast, and that's it. They get a few other miscellaneous (sp?) abilities, but really don't fit into a traditional party role. They have no ability for party support- everything they get affects only themselves or harms their targets.
Yet the fact is that, in a combat-heavy campaign like AoW, the damage potential and ease with which it dishes it out can really make a warlock strong. Also, there's the whole fiendish resiliance, and the ability to use magic items and even utilize item creation feats even though they can't cast the spells.
There's also the fact that they are stat-detensive. Have poor stats? Very few class abilities of a warlock are that dependant on them. Obviously, having high stats make you far more powerful and give you more options (with a high Str, Dex, and/or Con can make a warlock into a second-line combatant, rather than rear guard), but if you get poor stats, it doesn't hurt you as much as in other classes. You assume the mage's rear guard role (which they can do excellently), and you have slightly lower save DCs on your invocations, but the blast damage, many invocations, fiendish resliance, etc., are completely independent of stats.
Now, so many people above have given good ways to trump a warlock. However, they also trump wizards. I think the OP was looking for a way to trump the warlock while letting the other mages shine so that they can see that the warlock isn't as overpowered as they thought. Oh, and it's also a valid point to mention that it's not completely accurate to call a warlock a "mage" in the same fashion that a bard is not a "mage." They're different enough that the name doesn't quite fit in many instances, though they can be made to resemble them with the right selections.
Another thing about warlocks and their blast: No modifiers. They don't get a Cha boost to damage, like a warmage's edge using Int. They get nothing, just straight dice. And I find, from personal experience, having no modifiers on a damage roll is really a limiting factor. A fighter has so much going to his dice damage from strength bonuses and feats that his 2d6 greatsword can often outclass a 5d6 fireball for damage per round.
There was a thread some time back asking about the warlock's power, whether it was too much or too little. I don't remember the exact name, but when it was all said and done, I was firmly in the "warlocks are balanced" camp.
One thing you must do is realize that not filling a traditional role is a major hinderance to the class. Also, in order to get a true sense of power, you have to compare the whole package. You have to look at everything (BAB, Base Save Progression ((BSP)), Skill points, Skill list, Spellcasting and it's equivalents ((Power of each level of ability, uses per day, progression)), other class abilities, HD, and even more abstract things such as whether or not there are a lot of good feats to take with this class or good magic items, etc.) and compare those across classes. I remember in that thread from months ago, people cited the insane amount of damage a warlock could do per round, only to be countered by the fact that a fighter-type can match, or sometimes exceed, that, and wizards might not be able to completely match it, but the sheer number of other options available to them make up for it (remember, warlocks are a one-trick pony).
Overall, I don't find that the warlock is overpowered in any significant way.
You still ignore the important part: while a fighter or wizard may have the ability to deal equal damage, they cannot do it as easily, because they have to either deal with AC or saves. And a fighter usually has to close into melee.
Someone pointed out how they have a disadvantage in BAB and Saves. They have the exact same saves as the wizard, and a better BAB progression. In fact, their BAB is the same as the cleric, often a character useful in melee. And they have a better HD than the wizard ro sorcerer. They have essentially the same skill list, and same points as wizards, fighters, and clerics. While they have less tricks, they can use them effectively infinitely. Your pointing out their one balancing attribute as the balance of all of their abilities. I don't know how they could get left behind casters when they have everything better than them.
Maybe your 15th level campaign worked good. Super. You guys worked it out. It most campaigns, though, they are trouble.
I don't think your going to find an easy way to "beat down" a warlock in combat and make wizards shine, with the exception of maybe large numbers. The thing that makes wizards outshine warlocks for me is the versitility. Give them traps or magic locks that require certain spells. Give them encounters that require specific spells to make things easier. If the wizrds are still bothered by the warlock out classing them in combat, throw mosts at them that are tough but there main damage is midigated by a certain spell (Resist Energy sort of thing). Just my 2 cents.
The easiest way to beat down a warlock in combat is to send a giant flying monster that's immune to acid and has high spell resistance (black or green dragons for example). The warlock has a lot of trouble against those.
Overall, I think the warlock needs to be designed to fit the party. The sensory based powers allow a warlock to fit that roll quite well. A warlock 9/Mindbender 1/Master of the Yuirwood 10 with darkvision, see through darkness, blindsense, dark foresignt, mindsight, and high spot, listen, survival, tracking is awesome. He takes the place of a ranger, yet has the damage output as well. Not to mention, he has Improved Uncanny Dodge, Charisma bonus to saves, can speak with animals at will, has good hp, and can open up portals all over the place. In my mind, the Master of the Yuirwood PrC is the best Warlock PrC available.
In my mind, the Master of the Yuirwood PrC is the best Warlock PrC available.
Master of Yuirwood? Whats that?
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The easiest way to beat down a warlock in combat is to send a giant flying monster that's immune to acid and has high spell resistance (black or green dragons for example). The warlock has a lot of trouble against those.
Overall, I think the warlock needs to be designed to fit the party. The sensory based powers allow a warlock to fit that roll quite well. A warlock 9/Mindbender 1/Master of the Yuirwood 10 with darkvision, see through darkness, blindsense, dark foresignt, mindsight, and high spot, listen, survival, tracking is awesome. He takes the place of a ranger, yet has the damage output as well. Not to mention, he has Improved Uncanny Dodge, Charisma bonus to saves, can speak with animals at will, has good hp, and can open up portals all over the place. In my mind, the Master of the Yuirwood PrC is the best Warlock PrC available.
Not exactly a good fit in roleplaying terms is it? Nature boy + demonic seed. I'm sure you can work it, but it's weird.
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You still ignore the important part: while a fighter or wizard may have the ability to deal equal damage, they cannot do it as easily, because they have to either deal with AC or saves. And a fighter usually has to close into melee.
Someone pointed out how they have a disadvantage in BAB and Saves. They have the exact same saves as the wizard, and a better BAB progression. In fact, their BAB is the same as the cleric, often a character useful in melee. And they have a better HD than the wizard ro sorcerer. They have essentially the same skill list, and same points as wizards, fighters, and clerics. While they have less tricks, they can use them effectively infinitely. Your pointing out their one balancing attribute as the balance of all of their abilities. I don't know how they could get left behind casters when they have everything better than them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the warlock's attack is a standard action - no iterative attacks. So the damage goes up to add extra oomph as the levels climb. But it is still a standard action. A rogue can do huge amounts of damage, maybe having three attacks a round and with sneak attacks, and do far more damage - using a bow from 30'. A fighter has maybe four attacks a round, and will presumably have magic weapons that deal big damage.
I have played a warlock briefly as a NPC - he was tough, but it seemed balanced to me as an encounter for the party. To be honest, I think most people who are complaining has read the class description and have gone "Oooh, that looks a bit tough - ranged touch attack every round" without necessarily considering what the other core clsses can do that is just as vicious. In isolation it looks tough, but he's really just a archer (as James Jacobs pointed out in another warlock thread) with a few other powers. He probably outclasses wizards and sorcerers to some extent in damage dealing, but then they can do plenty of other stuff the warlock can't.
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Master of Yuirwood? Whats that?
PrC, probably from The Unapproachable East, which is a sort of sneaky bod from the Yuirwood in Aglarond, Faerun. As the denizens of the Yuirwood are mostly half-elves getting back to nature, it seems an odd PrC for a warlock in roleplaying terms, though I don't doubt the effectiveness mechanically.
The warlock in my own campaign hasn't been all that much of a problem. I'm currently running the Eberron modules and so far the group has encountered Spell Resistant monsters /and/ a Half Golem, both of which hosed the Warlock's blast and left them with little to do but act as a support fighter.
Good advice in this thread so far; Spell Resistance, High Touch AC, Golems, Cover, and Concealment. Don't forget incorporeal creatures either; that 50% miss chance applies to a warlock's blast too, and there's not a "Transdimensional Power" feat to make up for it.
I don't think it's necessary to counter the Warlock all, or even most, of the time either. The unlimited factor of their abilities should rarely come into play, since the party will usually stop to allow their spellcasters a chance to rest and renew their spells. The Warlock is also very feat poor. Sure, they get to utilize item creation feats, but only if they burn one of their precious few feats to do so. In short, they have to decide what they want their role to be to truly capitalize on the effectiveness of the class.
Okay, so they can turn themselves invisible and fly at will. They don't get sneak damage to compliment that, and most of the time they'll be picking off a single opponent at a time. Area effect abilities aren't so keen when the group is already in melee. And they can't buff their friends, so it doesn't entirely bypass various difficulties you throw at the group.
Despite their rather selfish abilities, a Warlock can still fill a niche or two in the party. They make excellent scouts, artillery, or snipers, to name a few. And their abilities can free up some characters to take on less traditional roles. With offensive magic covered, clerics can prepare more healing and buffs. Wizards can prep more buffs and utility spells (sure, the warlock can fly at will, but it's the wizard that gets the rest of the party across), as well as more targeted spells like hold or mass hold and the like. A stealth inclined warlock makes a great scout, but the rogue still handles the trapfinding and flank assistance.
I think a lot of the problems surrounding the Warlock come from other players trying to cling to the stereotypes. Fighters fight, wizards blast, clerics heal and fight, and rogues sneak, flank, and deal with traps. That's a solid core, but each role is something that's developed to capitalize on the strengths of the classes involved, and cover for the weaknesses. It's no different for the Warlock; use his strengths, cover his weaknesses.
Oh, and on the matter of the Yuirwood PrC...
The Warlock does mention that other strange entities such as fey and elementals can be responsible for the Warlock's power. One granted power by some ancient fey lord might fit the nature concept.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the warlock's attack is a standard action - no iterative attacks. So the damage goes up to add extra oomph as the levels climb. But it is still a standard action. A rogue can do huge amounts of damage, maybe having three attacks a round and with sneak attacks
Still, the attack have to include armor, right? And there are a ton of creatures who sneak attack does not work on.
I'm not saying the Warlock does not have weaknesses; I am only saying that they are not significant enough to balance out his abilities. Someone says "Well, he can't take damage, so he's fine!" Yeah, its a balancing factor. but even then, he has more Hp than a wizard! So it is not as balancing as a wizard.
I absolutely HATE the Warlock class. The fact that they can only cast a very few select spells so it balances things out argument is BS. I run a very carefully balanced game and gave a player a chance to run one and it completely unbalanced things. This was grossly evident to everyone at the table after watching this character in action for a couple months. Even the player running the warlock eventually admitted that it needed tweaking.
Sadly, the people at WoTC have had a chance to fix this class in their Complete Arcane errata and failed to do so. That really sucks because it could be a really great character that I would gladly allow back in my games if it was fixed a little.
All of that said, my players and I discussed how we thought the warlock could be balanced out and we came up with a very simple solution.
Just change the warlock's eldritch blast from a ranged touch to an actual ranged attack and it goes a long way to balancing things out. I have yet to playtest this theory, so if anybody finds this solution worth trying out, let me know how it went.
Preach it! Almost overriding all of the things they can do is completely ignore AC. You know that giant armored beast the fighter can't damage? The Warlock cuts through it with ease!
Yeah, the touch attack thing is pretty harsh. I find the only character who hits in my campaign 90% of the time is the warlock. I have been upping the touch ac's to even out the odds a bit.
What kind of monsters have a high touch ac compared to regular ac? Highly dextrous ones I presume?
Ray Deflection.
A fourth level bard/sorc/wiz spell that completely shuts down Eldritch Blast, at least until they can take Cone or Doom blast shapes. Gotta love the Spell Compendium.
Entropic shield, gives a 20% miss chance...
Windwall does not say anything about rays... Anyone think it should count for a blast?
I am looking in the compendium and cannot find "Ray Deflection" am I missing something?
I note that a lot of the examples were Warlocks fit right in were in high powered games. I don't think this is at all an accident. The Warlock really does not benefit as much as some of the other classes from unusually high stats, a lot of bonus feats or the ability to be Gestalt etc. Basically speaking its a totally rocking class that gets only limited utility from more power. It does a lot of damage every round and nearly always hits. He is amazing if your making your character with a 25 point buy.
On the other hand if you have a 40 point buy and access to all sorts of monstrous classes then its not nearly so impressive. That 40 point buy does almost nothing to help the eldritch blast. I mean I guess you raise dex to 18 and hit every round - except that you already hit every round. But what it does to the fighters, thieves and clerics is downright phenomenal. A fighter with 17 strength and a long sword can't really compare to a warlocks damage potential at lower levels. A Goliath with an oversized Two Handed Sword and 24 strength however may be making the Warlock feel like less of a man.
I think this also goes a long way to explaining why the Warlock starts to become much more balanced after 15th level. The feats and abilities that a Warlock gain are very nice but they don't really compare to what the rest of the classes gain. The stat bonus directly feed into how powerful the attacks of the melee types are. Furthermore as the levels rise the melee types begin to almost always hit with their primary attack as well. Beyond this the magic items a Warlock finds are unlikely to make him much better on a round for round basis. But a Flaming, Human Bane, Wounding +3 Long Sword really makes the fighter shine each and every round of combat.
Ray Deflection.
A fourth level bard/sorc/wiz spell that completely shuts down Eldritch Blast, at least until they can take Cone or Doom blast shapes. Gotta love the Spell Compendium.
Are you suggesting every encounter use this?
Its a great fix now and again, but the problem is more rooted in the class than in the limited fixes. It is not an issue of an occasional fix for the class, but the class always presenting a problem.
I also need ot echo Jeremy's sentiments: some people are mentioning pretty powerful stuff, like Gestalt characters. If thats what it takes to balance the class, count me out.
The problems with the EB negating the usefulness of AC and the fact that the warlock can use their EB all day long hasn't been an issue in my campaign.
I've been experimenting with using Armor as Damage Reduction and resolving ALL attacks as touch attacks against the target's Defense Bonus. So far it's worked rather well for all classes at low to mid levels, not sure about high yet.
In addition, I'm using the Recharge Magic rules from Unearthed Arcana. Thus, casters now get to lay about with their magic all day too, they just can't cast their high-level spells in back-to-back rounds.
TBH, the pixie warmage is (ironically) a much larger threat to the enemies than our warlock. In full out war, the pixie is our invisible "Mobile Weapons Platform" capable of either obliterating or breaking up enemy formations. On the flip side, the warlock serves more like a commando infiltrating and taking out specific threats, running interference or acting as a harrier.
IMO it just requires a different party composition/mindset than the traditional Warrior/Priest/Mage/Rogue arrangement.
Game altering changes aside, unless they have selected the abilities that extend the range of the EB, it's base range is only 60' I believe. If the party is attacked at range in an area with no cover, the melee types will be comfortable charging while the mages can start provide coverfire and bombardment with long-range spells. The warlock OTOH will have to take time to close the gap. Against an enemy that has archers capable of seeing invisible targets the warlock will be an easier target since they won't be as distant as the true casters.
Having played a 9th level warlock in Tomb of Horrors, I have this to say about them:
Offensive capability: Ish. I was dealing at most 6d6 damage (I was a warlock 5/wild mage 4) when a wizard could throw down 9d6, or 5d4+5 and not even need to roll an attack. Sure, warlocks can generate that damage every round, but how many encounters does the party really run into in one day? A 9th level wizard can (off the top of my head) cast 2 5th level spells, 3 4th, 4 5th, and 6 1st, not counting specialist bonuses or cantrips. If 15-20 spells cannot last that wizard through every round of every combat each day, then that party should probably slow down a bit or someone's gonna lose an eye or something.
Party Synergy: Ish. Eldritch blast, being a ranged ray, prohibits warlocks (unless they get hideous blow) from helping in melee with flanking and such. Most of the encounter with the four-armed creature (if you know what I'm talking about) in the ToH I spent on the wall, invisible, trying to figure out some way I could actually assist in preventing my allies from being torn to shreds. I used shatter on the ceiling a couple of times, to no effect... Got it with the eldritch blast a couple of times, but with my (relatively) low hit points I did not want to be caught visible for long.
Survivability: Pretty good. If you choose the right invocations, your warlock can walk up walls, turn invisible, shatter doors, and see in darkness. Though all of those abilities can help in combat, they're much more useful outside of it. For instance, I was able to help a party member who (along with me) had fallen down a 100 ft. shaft by carrying her rope 45 feet up and anchoring it in place with either of two immovable rods. Pretty handy.
Frankly, I see the warlock as what the sorcerer should have been - distinct from the book-loving wizard, with some actual class features to back up his arcane power - and that arcane power is actually an innate, unending well that he can literally tap into at any time. And I wouldn't be adverse to giving a wizard a lower-powered version of eldritch blast instead of a familiar to back up his spellcasting. Perhaps a d6 per highest spell level remaining uncast.
My 1 sp, keep the change.
TK
Well, I just used Ray Deflection in a battle with the Warlock today, he didnt do a single thing for 6 rounds until the Cleric dispelled the Ray Deflection. The warlock class is a little unflexible, perhaps to unflexible.
I just read Vitrolic Blast though and WOW, at 12th level they can make their EB pass spell resistance? This is crazy! So while every other mage is using weenie alternate spells to do damage to SR creatures, the Warlock is just blasting away? Pretty Powerful.
It seems like that those defending the Warlock say, "Its fine- if you totaly change your game or run a specific spell." That is an indication of an unbalanced class- it is either a gamebreaker, or, if you deal with it, a non-factor.
Oh yeah, on the example of a wizard doing 9d6 while you do 6d6, not a good argument. He can throw that 9d6 spell a limited amount of times- you can do fractionally less damge, but do it inifinitely. And his has a save, Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of DC 17 or 18. You have a touch attack. Sound sliek you got the better end of the bargain.
Oh yeah, on the example of a wizard doing 9d6 while you do 6d6, not a good argument. He can throw that 9d6 spell a limited amount of times- you can do fractionally less damge, but do it inifinitely. And his has a save, Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of DC 17 or 18. You have a touch attack. Sound sliek you got the better end of the bargain.
Actually, the warlock's throwing 5d6 when the wizard's fireball does 9d6, but that's small change. Ironically, those bashing the warlock seem to be hung up on the Eldritch Blast and how godly the ranged touch is. I've let it run as written and never had a single problem with it.
I mean seriously, how many rounds of combat are you actually going to be able to use that that ability before the fighter kills it or the party is wiped out? I've never seen combat go more than fourteen rounds, and at ninth level a sorcerer would be just one or two rounds into his second level spells at that point -- and in the interim, he can fire off five Enervations. Assuming that three of the five enervations hit (and since they're members of the vaunted Ranged Touch class, that seems reasonable. Cutting through the AC and whatnot), that's an average of seven negative levels -- 35 max HP, -7 to all d20 rolls, etc etc. Given that the Sorcerer could also be using Greater Invisibility at this point, so as to strike from hiding without risking his tender hide -- albeit at the cost of one shot of Enervation -- I'd say he's gotten the better end of the deal.
And that doesn't even touch on spells like Scorching Ray (again, a Ranged Touch), Glitterdust (No save vs. the negation of invisibility, and may blind the targets), Ray of Enfeeblement (He's wearing full-plate, you say?), Evard's Black Tentacles (particularly brutal with the previous), Mirror Image (for those times when you don't want to use Greater Invis), Rope Trick (Immunity to Random Encounters), and Polymorph (Sweet, Full-plate and a Greatsword! I turn into a rust monster! (Alternatively, turn into a brass dragon and you can always run away)).
The Warlock can keep going for a long time, but doesn't have much stopping power on any one attack, realistically. He's a damage over time character who, if played creatively, can be pretty deadly. That goes for anything, though. When the wizard's flinging Meteor Swarms for 24d6 to an area (with certain creatures taking extra damage and denied their save if he makes his touch attack) the Warlock is doing an unimpressive 10d6 per round. If he's willing to spend one of his three Dark Invocations on Utterdark blast, he can force a fort save to avoid gaining two negative levels for one hour (deadly if used on arcane spellcasters) but by that time the Wizard can do it better, and smart clerics cast Death Ward anyway. I've made 20th level melee combatants whose damage modifier is higher than the max that the Eldritch Blast could do, with high enough attack bonus to hit two or three times per round routinely.
Frankly, I wouldn't want to play a Warlock for the same reason I don't play Fighters or Barbarians: Not enough flexibility -- You ask them what they can do and they say "I can kill things." The warlock's got a longer list of "cool things", but is ultimately in the same boat. Or, at least, that's how it looks to me.
White Toymaker, do you run a RAW game (Rules as Written) or do you run a game with house rules and a lot of 3rd party published material?
My contention against the Warlock comes down to a matter of balance. In a strictly core rules game without non-WoTC products allowed in it, this character class is unbalanced.
White Toymaker, do you run a RAW game (Rules as Written) or do you run a game with house rules and a lot of 3rd party published material?
My contention against the Warlock comes down to a matter of balance. In a strictly core rules game without non-WoTC products allowed in it, this character class is unbalanced.
I tend toward applying house rules. In this case, however, I've been running it pretty much exclusively by the RAW. In Tomb of Horrors. Building PCs off of the Elite Array, because I'm running it with a handful of newbies and wanted to be able to hand them the PHB 2 opened to the back section and say "ok, make three characters. Each." *Evil Grin* The Warlock's increased survivability in this case boiled down being invisible while the rest of the party got torn apart by a Four-Armed Gargoyle. Two of the PCs went through second string characters (in addition to firsts) in that fight, and the Eldritch blast accounted for a disturbingly small amount of damage, despite the absurdly low touch AC of the thing and its lack of spell resistance.
I suppose it probably in part is a play-style thing. If played intelligently, the Warlock can theoretically Spider Climb onto the roof and rain destruction down on NPCs who have no ranged weaponry and no easy escape, then of course he's going to be problematic. That's kind of like letting a rogue with a Staff of Meteor Swarm sneak into the White Dragon's cave while it's asleep, though. Kind of cool for the character, but not something you let happen very often. If my Warlock started being problematic with that spiderclimb, you can bet I'd start including sorcerers with access to the Grease spell. ;) (Thanis, you've been warned!)
I am hung up on Eldritch blast. Yeah, a caster may be able to toss a 24d6 spell. Thats what his class does. But ho wmany times can he do it? Supposing there are three encounters in a day of spells, each like 5-6 rounds, he is not going to cast it 20 times. The two times will be deadly, yes. But while he is blowing his spell slot, the Warlock is non-stop.
Again, someone is pointing out how a wizard is good, so a warlock isn't broken. That doesn't fix it.
BTW, meteor stike is a ninth level spell, and requires a ranged touch for each of the meteors. Unlike the warlock, however, it allows a reflex save. And the warlock has a better BAB. And by then, a Warlock can hit multiple targets in a 20 ft radius, repeatedly, and can ignore spell resistance (vitriolic blast). That leaves the Warlock in pretty good shape, I'd say.
Yeah, I think I am now fed up with this class. It is too unflexible, and too good at one purpose. When I put up our party against 3 opponents with Ray Deflection, the Warlock did NOTHING for 6 rounds, absolutely NOTHING, not until the cleric dispelled the spell, then guess what? Eldritch Blast. So technically you could say the Warlock is balanced, but I say he is TOOO unflexible and too good at one task.
If you can make a d16 hd character with wicked BAB but who has no more than 5 int and cant speak, this might be balanced, but it would be insane in combat. I have a problem with this... There is more to it then balance, characters should have a range of options, this encourages role playing. Warlocks just have the EB and a couple other things.
Needless to say my enemies will be more prepared for a warlock for the rest of this campaign (AOW), I just shudder to think what I am going to do once he take Vitrolic Blast. Is it just the acid damage that bypasses SR or all of it? Or do you think at higher levels his damage will mean less and less?
Again, someone is pointing out how a wizard is good, so a warlock isn't broken. That doesn't fix it.
BTW, meteor stike is a ninth level spell, and requires a ranged touch for each of the meteors. Unlike the warlock, however, it allows a reflex save. And the warlock has a better BAB. And by then, a Warlock can hit multiple targets in a 20 ft radius, repeatedly, and can ignore spell resistance (vitriolic blast). That leaves the Warlock in pretty good shape, I'd say.
Actually, I'd argue that because the core Arcanists are able to hold their own against a Warlock of equivalent level, (and, quite likely, annihilate the poor Warlock) there's no problem to fix.
And while Meteor Swarm is indeed a ninth level spell, and I'll grant that it takes four touch attacks, the Wizard has at least +8 Base Attack by the time he can cast it. Assuming that he hasn't done anything more than a simple Cat's Grace spell to increase his ranged attack modifier, that's still +10 to the attack rolls -- easily enough to hit the heavy armor wearers. And what I gather you're misinterpreting is the purpose of the ranged touch attack. If the touch succeeds, the spells deals an additional 2d6 bludgeoning damage to that target and denies it its save against that meteor. Regardless of success, the meteors still deal fire damage (or half damage on a successful save) to everything in a 40' Radius Spread.
By comparison, the Vitriolic Doom is at that point an at-will Acid Ball that bypasses SR. A cool ability, certainly, but one that takes two of his invocations (reducing his overall versatility dramatically) and isn't going to see nearly as much combat time as you might think. Assuming three encounters per day of four to six rounds a piece, a 20th level Wizard with minimal intelligence who spends every round casting a spell of his highest effective level (without using expendable or charged items or even a Pearl of Power) might get into his fifth level spells by the end of the last combat. A Sorcerer wouldn't even need to touch his sixth level spells. That's 18 Rounds of Meteor Swarms, Polar Rays, Delayed Blast Fireballs, Spell Turning, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Horrid Wilting, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Time Stop, Prismatic Spells, Shapechange, (and, in the case of the wizard who's forced to demean himself with "weaker" magic, a bit of Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Telekinesis, Cone of Cold, and Wall of Force, with the option of an Anti-Magic Field if the Warlock proves particularly problematic) or any one of dozens of other things that a Warlock doesn't get to do, and we haven't even really scratched the surface of high level arcane spellcasting. Heck, with the Complete Arcane, an Arcanist can summon up a Sphere of Annihilation Lite, and Magic of Eberron includes a couple of spells that allow one touch per caster level at something like 13d6 fire damage per touch.
Meanwhile, the Warlock is standing back, invisible, doing the same thing round after round and maybe breaking it up by throwing out a Wall of Gloom or Chilling Tentacles. I'm not impressed.
Now, at lower levels the field's a bit more even, and at the earliest levels (first through maybe as late as fifth) when the casters have to ration their spells and use them sparingly, the warlock's ability to use Eldritch Blast with relative impunity is pretty powerful. The fact is, though, that arcane casters just generally suck at that point in their careers, regardless of what you compare them to.
Actually, I'd argue that because the core Arcanists are able to hold their own against a Warlock of equivalent level, (and, quite likely, annihilate the poor Warlock) there's no problem to fix.
That's a pretty weird argument. Because one class can be another in head-to-head, they are balanced? We're not discussing PvP combat. This is in a typical encounter.
We are obviosuly at an impasse. You think they are balanced, I don't. It's not really going anywhere. I don't think we can convince each other, either. I wish you good luck with the 'lock. I'm thru with it.
Yeah, I suppose what works in one game is completely broke in another. Nobody really wins a debate like this. You either like and use it or don't and don't.
One last note, you can pretty much tell a character is broke (or your game is) after one or 2 sessions with any new character class. If you have to start making some serious adjustments to your game because of a single character like arming opponents with special "foil" spells and feats or upping the EL's of encounters, chances are either the character is out of whack or your game is. Only you, the DM, can really determine the answer.
From what I've read from other posters with so many similar complaints I'd like to think that the character class is the problem.
Now as far as the original subject header of this thread, a good anti-warlock encounter (I mean, if you really want to stick it that particular PC) would involve creatures with 50% miss chances to hit them like wraiths, spectres, NPCs with cloaks of displacement or invisibility; creatures with SR for lower level Warlocks or that are immune to spell and spell-like affects that allow SR like golems or will-o'wisps; very small opponents with great touch ACs; monsters or NPCs/Monsters with poison or abilities that drain or damage Dexterity, thus affecting the Warlock's ability to use ranged touch attacks (shadows and greater shadows, giant wasp poison and terinav root).
That's the way I'd go.
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I think it's good all in all, though.
I learned something--that there might be a potential problem with the class--and as such I can be on the lookout. Forewarned is forearmed; anybody wants to run a warlock gets to meet up with a warlock drow. It's better than getting a campaign sneak attacked by a class that might jack something up.
hat's a pretty weird argument. Because one class can be another in head-to-head, they are balanced? We're not discussing PvP combat. This is in a typical encounter.
I'd hate to risk continuing the argument (as I'd resolved, within minutes of making my last post, that I was done with it anyway), but I suppose I should clarify: I was speaking as much in general terms as I was in combat terms. The Wizard's list of "cool things" they can do is overwhelmingly superior (to my perceptions) to that of the Warlock, even including the Warlock's "death by a thousand papercuts" clause. That was an error or my part -- I spoke unclearly.
For my part, I think the Warlock is incredibly inflexible and barely playable... but that's player's problem, and not mine. All I have to do is design dungeons so that their spider climb ability is useful.
Oh, and on the matter of the Yuirwood PrC...
The Warlock does mention that other strange entities such as fey and elementals can be responsible for the Warlock's power. One granted power by some ancient fey lord might fit the nature concept.
This was my general feeling. The Yuirwood elves come from an adjacent dimension that sort of bleeds into the forest. I looked at it as a fey/elemental power. They are defenders of the dimension/area, thus they derive their power from it.
As for warlocks being overpowered, I think that isn't true if you run a standard D&D game. The designers can only design material based on the average. This assumes that people have around the amount of gold, items, and encounters used. Some DMs love to exhaust characters with lots of encounters, creating a gritty feeling to the game. The warlock definitely doesn't work as well there because you can't really exhaust them. They never run out of invocations and their use of UMD means that they tend to have charged items and scrolls galore. For a campaign with a small number of encounters per day, however, the other spellcasters will always do more damage.