Hi all,
Since I know some of those love this debate, I thought I'd throw in some figures to fuel the debate.
I came upon this tool thanks to Kajehase over at Candlekeep. It's quite interesting.
Basically, it is a graph comparing the volume of searches started on Google using specific keywords. It seems that "Dungeons & Dragons" (i.e. Core is well above), while the Forgotten Realms come second. Greyhawk and Eberron are competing for the third place, on a similar heigth.
Bocklin
Poor Greyhawk. :(
Considering that Greyhawk is a setting that is practically not supported and does not benefit from advertising, it is quite interesting to see that it is on a similar level with the most advertised and supported setting of the moment.
Of course, both are at different stage of their life, but it's interesting. I thought Greyhawk would fare worse and that Eberron and FR would be competing for the second place.
Bocklin
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I shall pray Mayaheine to protect Greyhawk.
I have always liked this setting, and the most famous adventures are set there.
My 1st PC (created under 1st ed. back in '83 or '84), Dryalf de Totenhosen, lives in the western part of Sunndi. He went through many adventures including "Tomb of horror" and "Queen of the demonweb pit" (he died only once).
He fought during the wars in western Sunndi with a small army and allies and drove away an army of South Provincers, while Sunndi was invaded.
He declared a small territory (not that small, maybe 1/6 of Sunndi, most western part in the hills, with south of the forest, I can't remember the name right now) the "Free spirit Province", and began to rule that Province.
He has retired as of now, and acts as a diplomat, mostly in Greyhawk City, for that Province that has become so autonomous from Sunndi that it's almost an independent state, part of the new iron league.
He also fought to drive of the Scarlet from Idee (in my game, Idee is independant again, not under the South Province rule), and took part in the liberation of Scant with a force from Irongate, the province he ruled, Idee and rebels. Since that liberation, the Scarlet took Onnwall back, but most of the jails were emptied during that short time.
I converted him 3.5 : he is (now) a human LG mage 16 / fighter 4 / Spellsword 10, follower of the light of Pelor and the green leaves of Ehlonna.
He tried as hard as he could to obtain a loose (but wide) alliance against the Scarlet Sign, with a treaty signed between Dwarves of the Hestmarks mountains, free people's representatives for the hestmark hills, Dullstrand, Irongate, Sunndi, Rel Astra and the Solnor, free onnwallers (the leaders of 3 different groups were there), a few nobles from the Lordship of the isle, Idee and the Free Spirit province.
There is also a kind of truce (nothing was signed, though) with the former South Province, Kingdom of Ahlissa.
I even played all of his 7 children, mostly Ian de Totenhosen who is now a 12th level Paladin of Pelor.
However, currently, I am about to DM Age of Worms (beginning at 5th level since we don't play as often as we used to, and we didn't want to make new PCs), as well as playing the NPC-PC Sheshnara Granok (Favored soul 5, of Mayaheine, LG human with orc blooded feat, born and raised in Safeton : her grandpa, even being an orc, was killed by the armies of the Pomarj, as well as her parents when they all fought for their city; her brother was taken as a prisonner : he was with Shesh's mother on the deck of a ship about to leave for Hardby with the last defenders of Safeton when her mother died from a vicious stab from an orc with most of the other people on the boat) since there was no healer when we started.
I also play Scott de Boisdragon in the SCAP settled in the Forgotten Realms (we are in Bahl Amatugn, but I just joined the group I'm playing with and created a 7th level PC, CG human, scout 4 / ranger 3, follower of the good fortune of Tymora).
Noetheless, GH has something special, lots of ideas (especially for monsters) were created for Oerth and the Flanaess : the drow and Lolth, the sahuagins, the yuan-tis, the monk (scarlet brotherhood)...
Vecna, Mordenkainen, Melf, Murlynd, Otto, Otiluke, Rary, Tenser, Drawmij, Dragotha, Keoghtom and many more are from that setting.
It's not always coherent, but you can imagine SO MANY things in that setting. Long live Greyhawk, and thanks for the great DUNGEON and DRAGON teams to bring us great adventures in Greyhawk (return to the isle of dread, touch of the abyss trilogy, fiend's embrace, mad god's key, and AoW).
My 1st PC (created under 1st ed. back in '83 or '84), Dryalf de Totenhosen, lives in the western part of Sunndi.
I even played all of his 7 children, mostly Ian de Totenhosen who is now a 12th...
Deadpants Rule!!!!
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Deadpants Rule!!!!My 1st PC (created back in '83 or '84), Dryalf de Totenhosen, lives in the western part of Sunndi.
I even played all of his 7 children, mostly Ian de Totenhosen who is now a 12th...
Right, I picked the name after a european (german) punk-rock band that existed in the mid 80's, because I found it fun (totenhosen = dead pants = pantalon mort). My PC (as most of us when we were 12-13 years old) was named Dryalf, and I picked his family name 4-6 years after he was created.
For my 1st Ad&D game, Dryalf, a 1st level ranger (1st ed ; oh, I wish they had already switched to 3 or 3.5 ed back then ; the rules were so terrible, and everybody had a PC with three 16-18 scores and three 8-10 scores, with the exception of compulsory scores like Wis 13 or so for ranger and Paladin and Cha 17 for Paladin ; today, I would not volontary play a ranger, druid, fighter, barbarian, cleric ; I multiclassed him as a wizard under the 1st ed rules), I met a bunch of guys in an inn (does-it sound familiar ??) and we were given a mission to recover a powerful artifact (yes : eight 1st level PCs going to recover a lost crown, we finished the quest around level 5 or 6 ; not that bad for PCs looking for an artifact). Everybody went out, and I was alone in the inn, with a huming and banging on a wall : I go closer from the sound, the (thin) wall bursts into rubbles, and I face my 1st ever enemy monster : a troll. I didn't know anything about trolls, and my bravery kept me from running away. Since it was my 1st game, the DM was nice (he was also 12, didn't understand or know a lot about the rules since we played back then with english books and VERY BAD translations). I am not even sure the troll regenerated. I killed him. This was my very 1st monster.
We separated into 2 groups of 4 PCs, I never saw that crown and I think it was kept by an evil PC from the other group (I felt outraged but didn't get the time to tell him : a king had asked us to recover a crown, this was not for keeping it for us ; yes, I was already LG..., my favourite alignment with CN [the pain in the ars PC]).
Gosh, the adventures were SO BAD but SO FRESH for youngsters...
Can you imagine a deserted inn ? A troll coming out through a secret wall in a deserted inn ? A 1st level ranger killing a troll by its own ? A bunch of 1st level PC looking for a powerful artefact ?
Very good memories though...
I would be interested to know how many of the purchasers of 'core' products aren't in fact Greyhawk supporters, as the 'core/default' campaign is supposed to be Greyhawk. Of course if WoTC would bother to do anything for the line, I have little doubt it would be in above the other two settings.
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My PC (as most of us when we were 12-13 years old) was named Dryalf, and I picked his family name 4-6 years after he was created.
What I meant is most of us, at the age of 12-13, didn't pick family names (and didn't write any background).
The PCs WERE just THERE, adventurers with no personal history and with only a first name.
Another great memory, with the eldest son Ian de Totenhosen, was an adventure where we confronted a drow priestess at the end. Ian captured her, and back to the lord who had assigned us to that mission, we were given a single magical item as a reward (we could choose, say, among all magical items that cost less than 20.000 gold coins today).
I (Ian) chose a helm of opposite alignment, put it on the head of the drow priestess, and decided to show her the light of Pelor.
She had to recover her powers (one caster level after another, since she had lost all of her spellcasting abilities granted by Lolth) after that drastic change of alignment, and became a famous priestess in the Sunndian pelorian clergy (drow cleric 10 of Pelor). Then Ian married her. She was there for the 1st liberation if Scant.
By that time, I didn't really know a thing about Drizzt in the FR, and she is (just like Drizzt, but less powerful) a repentant drow in my GH campaign.
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I would be interested to know how many of the purchasers of 'core' products aren't in fact Greyhawk supporters, as the 'core/default' campaign is supposed to be Greyhawk. Of course if WoTC would bother to do anything for the line, I have little doubt it would be in above the other two settings.
Likewise, I was surprised (and delighted) to find some of GH deities as the core pantheon. However, people playing in FR already have the book about FR'gods, and I guess there is an equivalent for Eberron (or in the campaign setting for that universe).
It's been long known that WOTC doesn't want to support GH anymore. GH lives through the www and living GH (I'd sure would like to know how it is possible to find official LG adventures as free downloads : everytime I tried, either I was not recorded as a LG player, or the adventure had been removed...).
It's unfortunate that Greyhawk didn't take off in third edition, although I can see some of the reasons why. The core setting book was called the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer rather than simply Greyhawk Campaign Setting, so it instantly appealed to existing Greyhawk fans at the cost of being mis-named and ill-marketed to target new DMs. Unfortunately, I don't think the existing Greyhawk fans were too happy at the idea of paying money for a setting they'd already owned. It was largely a matter of ineffective marketing, in my opinion, rather than a lack of demand.
With Faerun, they had a certain level of popularity there thanks to existing fans of the Baldur's Gate games and all those Forgotten Realms novels. Even so, the market for those is limited compared to the entire market for D&D fans, and there's the problem again that old fans already know a lot about the setting. Thus, they avoid writing more Forgotten Realms books, because the money spent on one book could be better spent on a book which will sell at least twice as well.
With Eberron, what I think they're doing is trying to target the modern gamer, the roleplayer. The serious gamer, for whom the game's trademark style just isn't cutting it. To some extent it's an attempt to keep hold of players who might otherwise decide that D&D isn't mature enough for them, and more than that, it's an attempt to get those players hooked on a new line of books. This sounds negative, but I do not mean this in a negative way; if I was better at writing they might be buying my setting, not Keith's :)
It's unfortunate that Greyhawk didn't take off in third edition, although I can see some of the reasons why. The core setting book was called the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer rather than simply Greyhawk Campaign Setting, so it instantly appealed to existing Greyhawk fans at the cost of being mis-named and ill-marketed to target new DMs.
I'm not so sure this theory is sound. IRRC, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was the first 3rd edition product that was announced as having sold out its print run.
It's unfortunate that Greyhawk didn't take off in third edition,
Couldn't disagree more, third ed is what unretired myself and many other old timers who wanted to dive back into Greyhawk with the new rules after a long absence. The LGG was just a bonus.
With Faerun, they had a certain level of popularity there thanks to existing fans of the Baldur's Gate games and all those Forgotten Realms novels. Even so, the market for those is limited compared to the entire market for D&D fans, and there's the problem again that old fans already know a lot about the setting. Thus, they avoid writing more Forgotten Realms books, because the money spent on one book could be better spent on a book which will sell at least twice as well.
Huh? last time I checked Salvatores books were more popular than ever, there are 15 FR novels coming out in 2006. I don't really get what your trying to say here.
With Eberron, what I think they're doing is trying to target the modern gamer, the roleplayer.
I think you're giving WotC way too much credit there. They needed a new setting to pump out more product and the more different the setting the better so there would be less overlap with the core material and that means even more splat books. More books = More cash, if they can drum up the interest. If anything Ebberon is geared toward a younger video game crowd not traditional roleplayers. That's not a slam on it's writers or the setting just the way it comes off. Getting new players into game anyway possible is great, but whether the setting can hold its salt, lets check back in 15 years or so.
As for the initial graph it's kind of silly, people who play Greyhawk for the most part aren't out googling "Greyhawk" as the half dozen of sites that support are pretty common knowledge and are well linked. The Greyhawk fanbase in reality is probably the smallest, but I'd say the most vocal and defintely has lots of expendable income to support the setting.
If anything Ebberon is geared toward a younger video game crowd not traditional roleplayers. That's not a slam on it's writers or the setting just the way it comes off. Getting new players into game anyway possible is great, but whether the setting can hold its salt, lets check back in 15 years or so.
I think it may be more along the lines of a little from Column A and a little from Column B.
Sure WotC would love to pick up a whole new generation - their franchise pretty much depends on it. On the other hand loosing swarms of older maybe somewhat more jaded players is hardly ideal. In some ways the media drenched modern youth and the jaded long time roleplayer are both potentially looking for the same thing - something a little different but maybe not so different as Spelljammer or Planescape. Both these settings are certianly different but they have taken things to the point where it becomes little more then a kind of niche setting. Niche setting is not the goal. In terms of making D&D but different Monte Cooke was more or less targeting the same demographic with Arcana Evolved and it certianly worked for the group I play in (as opposed to the group I DM). There the DM was bored of the whole medival sowrds and sorcery genre. Ebberon was one suggestion and Arcana Evolved was the other.
In that case the DM went with Arcana Evolved, but I think that is in part because he could get a whole campaign world and make the rest of the players agree to swear binding oaths not to look up anything from any source on the world thus leaving it to be discovered pretty much from scratch in the game. Never manage that in Eberron - its 'in the news' to much.
I wonder why we did not hear from Takasi yet... I thought he would have jumped on this thread. Maybe he does not like the results he sees on these graphs? ;-)
Bocklin
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Considering that Greyhawk is a setting that is practically not supported and does not benefit from advertising, it is quite interesting to see that it is on a similar level with the most advertised and supported setting of the moment.
Personally, I like to think that this type of data shows that Greyhawk is just naturally superior to the upstart, Steampunk-like world of Eberron. Of course, Eberron fans would point out that Greyhawk has been around a lot longer, and, as noted elsewhere, is supposed to be the official core setting. I would say to that, "Exactly, which is why it should be shown more support."
I think success by any D&D setting will have a trickle effect on the other settings. In a few years <i>some</i> Eberron fans will look for something different and may turn to FR or GH and some old established FR or GH fans might give Eberron a try, which is what I've done. I haven't started an Eberron campaign yet, but I've bought the setting and the Sharn HC and it's not so bad. I also bought the Blackmoor campaign setting and it has lots of plunder in it as well.
What I'm getting to is the reiteration of my point--Wizards' failure to support GH is misguided. I don't think it would hurt Eberron or FR sales, but they would pick up sales from dedicated GH fans who would never purchase any campaign setting other than GH, while at the same time possibly getting some cross-over sales from FR or Eberron fans looking for another source of ideas or a future potential alternative.
If WotC believes that if they support GH, they will hurt their other products, I believe they are wrong. Eberron has to be able to stand on its own and if it's WotC's flagship setting, more power to them. If they produce 10 times as many Eberron books as GH books, that's fine. However, if and when some Eberron fans start to look for something different (whether to use it outright or just for some fresh ideas), they might turn to a more old school swords & sorcery world and if GH is not there to pick them up, plenty of 3rd party publishers will be.
However, after such a lengthy drought, if Wotc was to produce a GH HC campaign setting, fully integrated for 3.5, it would be an absolute stunning best seller. Might it make some people drop their Eberron campaign? Maybe, but I think a heck of a lot more Eberron fans might pick up the GH HC just to see what the fuss was all about back then.
However, unlike some posters in previous threads on this issue(not this thread, yet), I don't know what "most" people are thinking and I'm not ready to think that my own opinion is held by the majority. This is just what I think.
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For all the grief that I give Eberron, I have to say that I agree with what I've seen alot of other folk say. IF people want to buy Eberron, more power to them. That freedom is what this country is all about. At the same time, I'm with F2K in that I would like to see WotC put out a Greyhawk source book and I don't think it would hurt Eberron sales.
That being said, I have to wonder if the folks at WotC are afraid to let Greyhawk compete with Eberron. If the competition occured, and Greyhawk did win it, then those folks who pushed the setting out of the way in favor of Eberron would look like a bunch of idiots. Maybe that's what this is all about...some poor schmucks engaged in job protection. Just a theory.
I'm not saying that this is the case, but it COULD be the dark side of a company trying to get ahead of a paradign shift. The initial marketing for Eberron definately looked like the higher ups thought that A) kids don't like standard RPGs, and are getting pulled into MMORPGs and that B) kids favor Harry Potter, sort of modern fantasy to traditional sword and sorcery fantasy.
So, to get ahead of the trend, they put out a setting that has no high level NPCs, so the PCs are always the top dogs, that there isn't any established lore talking about training or the like, so you can do "ding" leveling, and a setting where you can mass transit and "robots" and the like, with psudo modern effects in it. Also this setting would be friendly to MMORPGs if D&D morphed into one.
Now, has this come about? I don't know. I think Eberron is doing fine, but I think there are as many Eberron players that just jumped to the setting for something new as younger players that they hoped to attraced from outside of the gaming community. I don't think they had the massive influx that they thought they would from outside of the gaming community. I could be wrong, but that is the sense that I get.
So, having a setting of powerful, precoucious upstarts with modern trappings didn't make D&D any cooler than tattoos and body piercings did back in 2000 when 3rd edition launched. I know that Hasbro wants to grow the brand and get younger blood, but so far I don't think they have the magic formula worked out yet.
Is Eberron a good setting? I've seen worse. But I like Greyhawk better, and Forgotten Realms will always be my home away from home.
When you compare the trends, it's interesting to look at the origins.
In English and French searches, Eberron is searched for more than Greyhawk is. In all other languages Greyhawk wins, probably because there are few translations of Eberron books and materials vs older Greyhawk material.
The same goes for regions. In the United States and Canada Eberron is the clear leader. In the UK and Australia Eberron only has a very slight advantage. In all other countries Greyhawk beats Eberron hands down.
Hi Takasi,
Indeed regional comparisons are important. But I don't see the same results as you indicate.
In all regions, it is the Forgotten Realms that win. Then Greyhawk comes second, followed by Eberron. The only places where Eberron is above Greyhawk is Finnland and Sweden.
Bocklin
I'm color blind, nevermind. If you only compare Eberron and Greyhawk, interestingly it's the opposite of what I indicated.
This has been quite the interesting topic. In my opinion, there has been something "interesting" and "usable" in every campaign setting that TSR/WotC has put out that has grabbed my attention. I missed out on the original Greyhawk run, but Forgotten Realms with its high-magic, old empires got me. Dragonlance, with its "we're digging ourselves out of our dark ages" feel got my attention, especially with its whole good vs evil as a swinging pendulum concept. (Though it was more fully explained in the novels, which is where a lot of my love for Dragonlance comes from.) Spelljammer - come on, D&D in space? Neogi ships? Mind flayers? Ships that could FLY? LOVED it. Loved creating world systems, especially. That was a hoot. Dark Sun caught my attention with its gritty survivalist feel and above all, the embrace of psionics wholeheartedly. I loved the concept of Defilers and Preservers and Templars. The Mystara, Greyhawk, Maztica, Hollow World and Kara-Tur settings were sorely lacking overseas, I'm afraid, so I never got the chance to really get into them as a kid.
However.
I would 1000% percent support a Greyhawk 3.5 hardcover campaign setting book. Why? Besides the fact that it's freakin' Greyhawk, I want to see the classic return to its glory. I want to see Furyondy, the Amedio Jungles, the lands that Iuz conquered, the Free City, I want to see the spot on the map that says "White Plume Mountain" and "Barrier Peaks" and "Crystalmist Mountains." I DO want to see what the fuss is about, seeing as how I missed that chunk of D&D History. I want to see the richly detailed realm of Oerth, as rich and as strong an effort that was put into updating the Forgotten Realms to 3.0.
Is there harm in putting out a single Greyhawk hardcover and seeing how sales perform? If they perform well, would it then warrant a further look into expanding and updating the Greyhawk line? That decision isn't in my hands, neither is the one to even do a Greyhawk hardcover. If a hardcover didn't do well, then they've only put their money on that one book and not banked everything on a nostalgia trip. *sarcasm sarcasm*
Ghostwalk is the example I can think of as a "departure" from the standard fare. I don't think it did extraordinarily well in terms of sales, but the "one-shot" model is something I can see working for some of the other "forgotten" campaign settings, like Mystara or Spelljammer. *ducks from the tomatoes thrown by Mystara and Spelljammer fans*
I don't think the introduction of a revamp from any Campaign Setting would hurt any of the pre-existing settings that WotC is currently supporting. In fact, I would think that seeing a revamped Greyhawk would suck the old-schoolers in and the newbies would have another setting to have a stab at. I like Eberron, as noted above, there's things in there I like (elemental binding, warforged and the Gatekeeper druids, for example), but it's not my cup of tea.
Would a Greyhawk hardcover setting book draw me away from my Forgotten Realms campaign? Hell no.
Would it stop me buying other books from WotC or other d20 publishers? Hell no.
Would I want to see more? Hell yeah!
It's still D&D, no matter what logo is smeared across the cover. Maybe a different flavor of D&D that what you consider "standard" but D&D nonetheless. We all want D&D to keep going and keep succeeding, or else we wouldn't all be here, on a gaming publisher's website, talking about what things we'd like to see in the overall D&D universe.
Game on!
Is there harm in putting out a single Greyhawk hardcover and seeing how sales perform? If they perform well, would it then warrant a further look into expanding and updating the Greyhawk line? That decision isn't in my hands, neither is the one to even do a Greyhawk hardcover. If a hardcover didn't do well, then they've only put their money on that one book and not banked everything on a nostalgia trip. *sarcasm sarcasm*
I've become quite convinced that D&D is a vehicle to launch high-profit, low-investment spinoffs -- in particular, minis and novels. GH has historically shown no ability to do so. Thus I remain pessimistic and depressed :(
IMO. I've said this elsewhere -- sorry for the repetition.
Jack
To support Tatterdemalion's point, I managed a bookstore (Barnes & Nobles) when the "Justicar Series" Greyhawk Novels were released. Imagine my disappointment when I watched them sit and collect dust on the shelf (aside of the ones I bought, of course), month after month after month...all the while seeing Forgotten Realms novels fly off of the racks next to them. :/
I'm unashamedly a Greyhawk guy and I always will be. I'm jealous as hell of all the support that Forgotten Realms has gotten over the last two decades (particularly with the 3.5 era)and that has really led me to hate the setting completely and unreservedly. Childish and unwarranted? Perhaps. But it is what it is, the same.
But more to the point of the thread, my outlook on WoC ever supporting Greyhawk to my satisfaction is wholly pessimistic as well. It was noted by a previous poster above that the LGG sold very well; it would seem to me that, then, it would be completely logical business to support a clear financial winner with more products of the like. Still, nothing.
My only choice throughtout all of this is to support Greyhawk in the only way I can: within my personal gaming campaigns. With all spite intended--hell, I've done it for about fifteen years without any real support. Why should things change now?
Is there harm in putting out a single Greyhawk hardcover and seeing how sales perform? If they perform well, would it then warrant a further look into expanding and updating the Greyhawk line? That decision isn't in my hands, neither is the one to even do a Greyhawk hardcover. If a hardcover didn't do well, then they've only put their money on that one book and not banked everything on a nostalgia trip. *sarcasm sarcasm*I've become quite convinced that D&D is a vehicle to launch high-profit, low-investment spinoffs -- in particular, minis and novels. GH has historically shown no ability to do so. Thus I remain pessimistic and depressed :(
IMO. I've said this elsewhere -- sorry for the repetition.
Jack
That being said, I have to wonder if the folks at WotC are afraid to let Greyhawk compete with Eberron. If the competition occured, and Greyhawk did win it, then those folks who pushed the setting out of the way in favor of Eberron would look like a bunch of idiots. Maybe that's what this is all about...some poor schmucks engaged in job protection. Just a theory.
The problem is that there is already competition with Eberron. How many more traditional swords and sorcery settings are published by 3rd party publishers?
The Blackmoor setting, while a stand-alone product, is in Greyhawk (it's older, but it's part of Greyhawk-even if Gygax just put Arneson's setting into his world as an afterthought). WotC licensed that product to Goodman Games to publish and they put out a pretty decent hardcover book on it. No mention of GH, but GH fans know where Blackmoor is.
So, if fear of competition is the reason why Wizards won't publish a GH hardcover, then why license portions of it to 3rd party publishers? If people don't want to play in Eberron, they're not going to--why not have a product that picks up that portion of gamers and already has a 26 year advantage over the 3rd party competition?
Bite deep, Wizards--license Greyhawk to Paizo (then you'd have reason to be afraid).
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Hi all,
Since I know some of those love this debate, I thought I'd throw in some figures to fuel the debate.
I came upon this tool thanks to Kajehase over at Candlekeep. It's quite interesting.
Basically, it is a graph comparing the volume of searches started on Google using specific keywords. It seems that "Dungeons & Dragons" (i.e. Core is well above), while the Forgotten Realms come second. Greyhawk and Eberron are competing for the third place, on a similar heigth.
Does anyone know why FR searches leapt up at the end of 2004? And I wonder what's driving the increased volume of D&D searches this year.
Does anyone know why FR searches leapt up at the end of 2004? And I wonder what's driving the increased volume of D&D searches this year.
Forgotten Realms searches at the end of 2004...can't think of any particular reason...I'm thinking novel, though, by RA Salvatore, maybe A Thousand Orcs?
This year my guess is Dungeons and Dragons Online. For some bizarre reason, some of the people there have never played D&D. Someone actually said they didn't know who Gygax was.
Black heresy, I know. Strange stuff...
The Blackmoor setting, while a stand-alone product, is in Greyhawk (it's older, but it's part of Greyhawk-even if Gygax just put Arneson's setting into his world as an afterthought). WotC licensed that product to Goodman Games to publish and they put out a pretty decent hardcover book on it. No mention of GH, but GH fans know where Blackmoor is...
I don't think they are the same (odd as it sounds). What little Blackmoor I've seen from Arneson seems to bear no resemblance at all to Gygax's.
More knowledgeable people might correct me, though.
Jack
Right, there's little resemblence to the Blackmoor stuff published in D&D, except that the Egg of Coot and Blackmoor Town is there--but it is a named location in GH and the front cover did say "copyright 1975, licensed by Wizards of the Coast".
Having said that, it's a lot closer to Greyhawk in feel (like a dark ages GH) than Eberron, so I feel that Wizards did create a little rival to Eberron even if they didn't intend to.
In addition, the setting is limited geographically to roughly the area that Blackmoor is limited to in GH and it could be dropped into GH as it stands with almost no fuss at all. I doubt that's an accident.
Besides Blackmoor, there's Tunnels and Trolls, Castles and Crusades, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Hackmaster, Warhammer, MERPG, etc.
The market is saturated with traditional vanilla sword and sorcery. The d20 license allows any publisher to make a world exactly like Greyhawk with adventures that only require the core rulebooks. In addition to the d20 license, the nostalgia factor alone has inspired (or "uninspired" depending on how you look at it) developers to churn out products similar to games of the past. In addition to new products, there's nothing stopping groups from playing 2nd edition and 1st edition material.
I'm sure piracy is a factor too. People who want Greyhawk material probably already have it and can share it with others. Any resurrection that WotC asks $40 for is going to be competing with very similar information that's available for "free".
This is very interesting that Greyhawk, which has very little support and no product, comes out above Eberron, which has masses of support and loads of product.
I wonder if Eberron is a flop?
I'm sure piracy is a factor too. People who want Greyhawk material probably already have it and can share it with others. Any resurrection that WotC asks $40 for is going to be competing with very similar information that's available for "free".
I'm sure this is not a real factor. While I obviously don't condone piracy, I do know that the latest RPG materials are (sadly) pirated and made available very quickly.
This is very interesting that Greyhawk, which has very little support and no product, comes out above Eberron, which has masses of support and loads of product.
I have googled Greyhawk information more than Eberron information, yet I've purchased every Eberron supplement. Why is there a need to google something if there's information available for it in print? It's not like there's additional info that might be hidden online, as there would be with Greyhawk. Google is used more for online searching, which isn't really needed to find Eberron info. As long as you go to the Breland Ledger and WotC you should have all the links you need from there.
I'm sure this is not a real factor. While I obviously don't condone piracy, I do know that the latest RPG materials are (sadly) pirated and made available very quickly.
Again, there's a significant difference. More people may have resorted to piracy to obtain Greyhawk material because the only way to obtain it now is through pdf; it's much more difficult to track down quality book copies. It's already been available for years online, so if anyone had a notion of piracy they could have easily swiped all of these copies in a few days time. To steal Eberron material you would need to be an ongoing pirate, which is less likely than someone who may casually downloaded material in the past few years.
Why is there a need to google something if there's information available for it in print? It's not like there's additional info that might be hidden online, as there would be with Greyhawk. Google is used more for online searching, which isn't really needed to find Eberron info. As long as you go to the Breland Ledger and WotC you should have all the links you need from there.
Alternatively, it could be a general lack of interest in Eberron! You sound like you're clutching at straws here.
It's already been available for years online, so if anyone had a notion of piracy they could have easily swiped all of these copies in a few days time. To steal Eberron material you would need to be an ongoing pirate, which is less likely than someone who may casually downloaded material in the past few years.
Newer material is more easily available to the pirates. More straw clutching?
Alternatively, it could be a general lack of interest in Eberron! You sound like you're clutching at straws here.
Possibly, but you could also go by the amount of message board activity on the WotC site. Just throwing out alternatives to your gloom and doom. It's just as likely that people simply have more of a need to Google Greyhawk if they want to find information on it. I know I have in the past for LG research.
Newer material is more easily available to the pirates. More straw clutching?
Again, just showing you the other possibility. In order to find the new material you have to be actively looking for it. With Greyhawk you could find everything you need from the past in one sitting, because just about all of it has been scanned in and is online. I don't see how newer material is more easily available. Do you have any proof of this? Also, with Greyhawk pdf is one of the only options you have, so there's no advantage to buying a product so people may have already resorted to piracy in some cases. With Eberron you can purchase a book, which is easier to bring to the table and share during game sessions.
I think Takasi's argument is much more compelling than he's being given credit for. As he said, why do a Google search for Eberron? There's only a half dozen or so products out there and a couple of video games; it's not hard to find material. On the other hand, it takes some digging to find Greyhawk material. I've done searches to find old Greyhawk material, but never for Eberron. When much of this data was compiled there was even less Eberron material out there.
Maybe this is an odd or dumb question. But who the hell is "pirating" Greyhawk PDF's that have an average cost of $2-5? while some books are super rare ( yes call me crazy, I recently paid $25 for an excellent condition "Baltron's Beacon") most GH books on ebay can be found at a very reasonable price. I can see the potential of piracy for newer WotC material as they charge full price for PDF's, but access to these books in PDF form is very limited, so unless your talking about secret mass illegal sharing or what not I just don't get "piracy" angle here. Maybe I am just being naive but I see roleplayers as pretty damn supportive of the industry being its such a niche market. It's way less likey that piracy has any significant impact.
Here's a question: As most PDF's are not not serious print quality anyway, and collectors still covet the physical book. Does anyone think sharing a $5 PDF of an out of print book with your fellow players is piracy?
By the way, with all due respect, if Greyhawk had as large a potential market as the handful on these boards think it does, then TSR or WOTC's marketing teams likely would know about it. TSR was publishing a horde of products for a plethora of campaign settings in its final days, but relatively little Greyhawk; that should probably tell us something.
Greyhawk's biggest problem is that it has little to nothing to differentiate itself from any other generic swords and sorcery setting. I have no real problem with the setting itself, but having read a handful of Greyhawk products, I can find very little that is truly compelling and different about it either. The same can be said for Forgotten Realms, but since that one is more popular I can see why WOTC would choose to publish FR and not Greyhawk.
Yes, it is piracy--you're distributing a copyrighted product to an unauthorized party without the effective consent of the copyright holder. Just because it's easy to do and you won't get caught and even if you get caught, you're likely to just have to pay a fine, it's still illegal.
Just because PDF technology makes it easier to share books and just because it's only $2 doesn't make it any different than photocopying an entire hardcover book and giving your friends the copies.
Excellent point, oldcoast :-)
I think Takasi's argument is much more compelling than he's being given credit for. As he said, why do a Google search for Eberron? There's only a half dozen or so products out there and a couple of video games; it's not hard to find material. On the other hand, it takes some digging to find Greyhawk material. I've done searches to find old Greyhawk material, but never for Eberron. When much of this data was compiled there was even less Eberron material out there.
This doesn't work for me.
I own no Eberron books (I probably won't buy any either), but I've done searches on Google to find info for my warforged's background and for role-playing tips. I have also done searches out of simple curiosity about Eberron.
Granted, there are few Eberron websites at the moment, but I am usually pointed to a thread on a messageboard or to a review where I can find what I'm looking for.
The fact that the Eberron books are 'easily available' does not make me rush out to buy them when I can get the info I need for free on the web.
So, I think this might be a useful barometer of interest in the three settings. Of course, fans/haters of a particular setting will point to any piece of evidence that will back up why they think that setting is doing well/badly.
I also have other reasons to believe that Eberron is not exactly setting the RPG world on fire....
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By the way, with all due respect, if Greyhawk had as large a potential market as the handful on these boards think it does, then TSR or WOTC's marketing teams likely would know about it.
No offense, but this is really a faulty assumption. Just because the market is there, the marketing team in all their omnicient glory would know all about it. Corporatations worry about overall bottom line, not maximizing every possible marketing niche; sometimes the two are mutually exclusive.
So just because WOTC is NOT doing it does not mean the MARKET is NOT THERE; it just means it is not CURRENTLY THEIR STRATEGY.
Point taken, Heath. That being said, if the market is not large enough for them to allocate some of their limited resources to, then isn't it functionally the same thing as it not being there at all? I'm assuming that they get a larger return on their investment on Eberron and FR products; that being the case, why not throw all of their money at those lines? It would be irresponsible not to. They can only publish a limited number of high-quality books per year; they're going to choose to publish the ones that will sell the very best. Eberron is also an opportunity to strategically build up a new product line that has room for lots of expansion in the years to come; what most Greyhawk fans seem to be asking for is a rehash of old material, and the growth opportunities for such a line are very limited. The same is true to a lesser extent for FR; they're publishing fewer regional books and more stuff like Power of Faerun and Champions of Valor now. I can't speak for the sales, but after reading them I feel like maybe WOTC is having to stretch for new and different material in the FR.
Yes, it is piracy--you're distributing a copyrighted product to an unauthorized party without the effective consent of the copyright holder. Just because it's easy to do and you won't get caught and even if you get caught, you're likely to just have to pay a fine, it's still illegal.
Just because PDF technology makes it easier to share books and just because it's only $2 doesn't make it any different than photocopying an entire hardcover book and giving your friends the copies.
If you want to sell your PDF of an out of print book for a penny, is that any different than selling the book itself for a penny on ebay? if its out print, it's out print. Public domain takes over after time, PDF's ( virtual facsimiles) are nothing more than advertisements for the sought after originals.
My point is there is a huge difference between sharing a resource to help perpetuate the setting and helping it thrive to a new audience and maliciously pirating books out of greed or for personal gain. While I think swapping out of print low quality PDF's isn't a big deal (especially when all of us when presented a case to buy the physical books jump at it. We've all purchased hundreds of PDF's and have many thousands of dollars of printed prodcuts).
Stealing a PDF of a newly released book or even buying it and putting it for free download is whole another story. How prevalent is that? does it happen to a larger extent?
As far as I know WotC makes very few of their current books available on PDF to begin with. Are people seriously scanning in new books assembling PDF's and distributing them illegally?
or is the word "piracy" just being casually thrown around without thought of the proper context. I wonder.
Public domain applies to printed products, but only after some serious conditions have been met, time wise and otherwise. As far as D&D/AD&D products are concerned, Wizards bought the entire line from TSR and still has copyrights to ALL of it.
(for example, the Blackmoor D20 book by Goodman games has a Wizards copyright of 1975 on it...so if Goodman games had to get a license from Wizards to re-publish something from 31 years ago, it's pretty obvious the "public domain" rationalization for committing a crime isn't going to hold any water)
You know what I did? I printed out my PDF and then I let others in my gaming group read portions that they need. No one makes copies and the original PDF I bought doesn't get sent for free to anyone. If my friends think the PDF is valuable enough to them that they want their own copy, then they can shell out the bucks for it.
If you don't think sharing a cheap PDF for free with your friends is a big deal and there's a "nobler" purpose of supporting or enriching the campaign setting, then "support and enrich" it by paying for additional copies of the PDF. Companies that put the PDFs up for downloading for a price do so to make money, support themselves and their employees and conduct legal business.
Circumventing that by illegally sharing intellectual property is piracy, no matter how much you don't like that term. Just because something is old and cheap doesn't make the unauthorized distribution of it any less worse, morally or legally, than the brand-new cutting edge PDF product thousands want.
(Gee, did we hit one of my pet peeves again?...I'm such a "law & order kinda guy)
Possible solution? The PDF purveyors could offer "additional copy" licenses of the product for a reduced price, to be paid at the time of initial purchase.
Public domain applies to printed products, but only after some serious conditions have been met, time wise and otherwise. As far as D&D/AD&D products are concerned, Wizards bought the entire line from TSR and still has copyrights to ALL of it.
If you don't think sharing a cheap PDF for free with your friends is a big deal and there's a "nobler" purpose of supporting or enriching the campaign setting, then "support and enrich" it by paying for additional copies of the PDF. Companies that put the PDFs up for downloading for a price do so to make money, support themselves and their employees and conduct legal business.
OK so because I bought, "Greyhawk the Adventure begins" when it came out for $15 or what not, all those years ago and I recently again bought the PDF's for $4 and gave a copy to my 5 players. am I'm thief or am I a pirate? because I owe some distibuter (whom I've probably spent $100's of dollars with already) another $20????
That is a political argument my friend not a legal one.
And I would argue in court that PDF use falls under the same "copyright and fair use clauses" I subscribed to as a teacher.
Copyright laws these days have more shades of grey that any other single field. "Totalitarian" enforcement of outdated copyright laws is as unethical as the people that malicously abuse them.
My point being that "piracy" is a dirty word, that is often taken out of context. What I do, I don't consider piracy and I sleep very well at night. If people are scanning "in print" books, assembling PDF's and illegally selling them or distributing them. (I'd be suprised but it's possible)
I'd be the first guy in line in the lynch mob, even if it was Ebberon books.
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Point taken, Heath. That being said, if the market is not large enough for them to allocate some of their limited resources to, then isn't it functionally the same thing as it not being there at all?
That's not necessarily true. I personally believe they're exploiting a synergistic effect--all the oldschoolers (classic d&d guys) will, in lieu of no Greyhawk, buy FR. The market AT THIS TIME doesn't merit their exploitation in lieu of that.
You could theoretically throw the same argument at Eberron--there's not enough Eberron market to support a magazine, so why have them in Dungeon or Dragon at all? The market doesn't exist? Takasi (no offense) is a prime example of its existence.It also doesn't apply to Ravenloft which I hear they're working on again. It wasn't dead (no pun intended), it just wasn't an actionable item at the time.
Public domain applies to printed products, but only after some serious conditions have been met, time wise and otherwise. As far as D&D/AD&D products are concerned, Wizards bought the entire line from TSR and still has copyrights to ALL of it.
If you don't think sharing a cheap PDF for free with your friends is a big deal and there's a "nobler" purpose of supporting or enriching the campaign setting, then "support and enrich" it by paying for additional copies of the PDF. Companies that put the PDFs up for downloading for a price do so to make money, support themselves and their employees and conduct legal business.
OK so because I bought, "Greyhawk the Adventure begins" when it came out for $15 or what not, all those years ago and I recently again bought the PDF's for $4 and gave a copy to my 5 players. am I'm thief or am I a pirate? because I owe some distibuter (whom I've probably spent $100's of dollars with already) another $20????
That is a political argument my friend not a legal one.
And I would argue in court that PDF use falls under the same "copyright and fair use clauses" I subscribed to as a teacher.Copyright laws these days have more shades of grey that any other single field. "Totalitarian" enforcement of outdated copyright laws is as unethical as the people that malicously abuse them.
My point being that "piracy" is a dirty word, that is often taken out of context. What I do, I don't consider piracy and I sleep very well at night. If people are scanning "in print" books, assembling PDF's and illegally selling them or distributing them. (I'd be suprised but it's possible)
I'd be the first guy in line in the lynch mob, even if it was Ebberon books.
What a moronic attitude. What right do you have to the material? You want it? Tough! Everything isn't created for you to use as you please without compensation. Do you steal cars? No? Just ideas? Oh...well that must be ok.