I'm very happy to see Keith Baker and Eric Boyd signed up for AP3. Thank you Paizo! From reading the editorial, it seems like they are going to write two of the adventure modules. Is this true?
You provided an overview of the generic/Greyhawk version of AP3. Can you give us a few clues on the Eberron and FR versions?
There are several possible locations for the Isle of Dread and the port city of Sasserine:
1. Xen'drik. An entire continent away, this largely unexplored area could be the launching pad for the adventure.
2. Lhazaar Principalities. The Hold of the Sea Princes might match this area. The climate doesn't really match though.
3. Q'barra. The Amedio jungle was matched to Q'barra in the Age of Worms adaptation notes. For consistency this might be the best location.
Here were my initial thoughts on the Eberron version of the lower planes background.
1. The most obvious:
Followers of the rajah Demogorgan plot to turn Khorvaire into savages. The Abyss is Khyber and the latter part of the AP takes place deep underground rather than in another dimension.
2. A more exotic planar option:
Some believe that actions taken by mortals in Khorvaire can influence the interaction of the planes. A powerful demon in Shavarath wishes to plunge the world of Eberron into savagry and war. He believes he'll be able to take advantage of the resulting conjunction with the plane of battle.
3. My personal favorite:
The ultimate revenge against the Silver Flame: the lycanthropes who fled to the feral plane of Lammania uncover savagry incarnate in their new world. They plan to unleash it upon the world that made them outcasts.
I'm sure there are several other ideas for Eberron adaptation. Can you give us an idea of which one you're planning? The best choice really depends on the tone and structure of the modules you're planning. The number of surrounding cities, the types of creatures encountered, the geography of the land, the politics of the regions; all of these should also be factored when determining ease of adaptation.
Does anyone have any FR thoughts?
Creative Director
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Now that the cat's out of the bag regarding "Savage Tide" I can talk briefly about how we're going to probably handle the conversion notes. At this time, we're planning on having Eric Boyd and Keith Baker do the adaptations; they're also both writing an installment of the campaign. However; the base campaign remains set in the same world as Shackled City and Age of Worms.
Now that said; Savage Tide begins at the edge of the known world and fairly quickly moves into lands unknown. Sasserine's location will likely be at some distant place at the edge of civilization, and the Isle of Dread (and its surrounding islands, including the one on which Scuttlecove is located) is located so far out to sea that the plan is to probably not change much at all with these locations. It'd be easiest just to drop them right in to any campaign setting in the middle of the ocean without much change.
The same goes for the Abyssal locations we're visiting in the last third of the campaign. These adventures are heavilly rooted in the cosmology of the Great Wheel, which means that they'll need a little tweaking to fit in to Forgotten Realms (but not much; most of the locations in the Great Wheel have analogies in FR), but they'll need a lot more for Eberron. Personally, I'd rather see the adventures set the scene and adapt the outer planes of Eberron to match what's in the adventures; adaptation is a two-way street, after all.
In any event, we're still months away from starting work on these, so there's been no final decisions on how we're going to present them. They'll probably be shorter, thoguh, since the campaign itself takes place on new ground and thus doesn't have to fit into established canon of a campaign world.
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My brainstorm on this for you guys writing the AP: grab up a few of those old Harryhausen Sinbad flicks for inspiration. I was just watching Jason And The Argonauts last week with my 3-y-old and the part with the giant golem came on. He was enrapt for the whole 5 minute segment...that's hard to do with a 3-y-old.
I know it's some real cheese compared to today's graphics, but those old things really get one in the mood for exotic island-hopping.
Also, they have this flavor of newness, of discovery, of adventure in uncharted regions. On the map it doesn't say "here be dragons." Shoot, there's dragons everywhere. This has gotta be TERRA INCOGNITO to really do the genre justice.
Remember the first time you ran Vault of the Drow? Nobody knew what to expect. Drow, Kuo Toa, Blibdoolpoolp, Lolth, they're not exactly in the 1ed. Monster Manual. TERRA INCOGNITO at its best.
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Creative Director
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Never fear: I was raised on Harryhausen, so Gwangi and Sinbad and the Ymir and all them are always bumping around in the back of my mind. I wouldn't call the effects in these movies cheesy; I think they stand up remarkably well to today's movies, and in most cases are even better since Harryhausen's work is so infused with art and soul.
Other movies that I've recomended the authors of Savage Tide check out include (but aren't limited to) Lost Continent, Predator, Aliens, Lost, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and of course King Kong (old and new).
Now that said; Savage Tide begins at the edge of the known world and fairly quickly moves into lands unknown. Sasserine's location will likely be at some distant place at the edge of civilization, and the Isle of Dread (and its surrounding islands, including the one on which Scuttlecove is located) is located so far out to sea that the plan is to probably not change much at all with these locations. It'd be easiest just to drop them right in to any campaign setting in the middle of the ocean without much change.
Doesn't Sasserine already have an established location in the previous APs and Greyhawk? It's near Cauldron and the Amedio Jungle. It has established political and economic ties. The APs have now become a Setting in and of themselves. As you've said in the past, people prefer to see fewer proper nouns and references to Setting specific material. How much will we see in Savage Tide?
In Eberron and FR there are many places on the edge of civilization. Which ones are being discussed for the best adaptation? In Eberron I'm guessing Q'barra would be the most consistent, but Xen'drik might work too.
The same goes for the Abyssal locations we're visiting in the last third of the campaign. These adventures are heavilly rooted in the cosmology of the Great Wheel, which means that they'll need a little tweaking to fit in to Forgotten Realms (but not much; most of the locations in the Great Wheel have analogies in FR), but they'll need a lot more for Eberron. Personally, I'd rather see the adventures set the scene and adapt the outer planes of Eberron to match what's in the adventures; adaptation is a two-way street, after all.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by adapt the outer plane of Eberron to match what's in the adventures. The outer planes haven't fully been defined for Eberron beyond a paragraph for each one.
This is an excellent opportunity to take the description of a location like the Abyss and show the best possible adaptation for Eberron. In Eberron, where could we see the geography and denizens of these Abyssal areas? Khyber? Shavarath? Lamannia? An undiscovered demiplane between Xoriat and Dal Quor? The planes of Eberron need more definition, so this would be a great chance to provide something useful to the setting using your license.
In any event, we're still months away from starting work on these, so there's been no final decisions on how we're going to present them. They'll probably be shorter, thoguh, since the campaign itself takes place on new ground and thus doesn't have to fit into established canon of a campaign world.
It isn't just about fitting the campaign into the canon, it's also fitting the canon of the setting into the campaign. A world is much more than what's presented in the AP or in a DM's adventures notes. It's supposed to provide a foundation for characters to build their background stories and it's a launching point for roleplaying. Adaptation notes are more valuable if they help a DM tie the major organizations, locations and events of the world into the campaign.
Please reconsider the length of the adaptation notes. I believe there were two issues with the series of notes for AoW:
1.) The writers were not as involved in the development process. I've seen a few posts from Mr. Boyd and Mr. Jacobs indicating this. It sounds like this won't be as much of a problem with AP3.
2.) The notes were bundled with the PDF. Creating the PDF requires different people to work together, which means more scheduling and planning must be done ahead of time. One of the reasons cited for the delay was the loss of the art director. Perhaps you could solve this problem if the notes were published as a web enhancement. Eventually they could also be bundled in with the online supplements. I think this would be far more preferable than trying to squeeze the notes into the magazine.
Web enhancements similar to WotC's would be great not only for Eberron and FR adaptation notes but also for any other cool thing you want to add to the campaign. I'm sure the editors could come up with some wicked articles with cool extras that couldn't make it in the magazine due to space restrictions. Advertising it in your magazine would increase traffic to your site, and possibly get more people to subscribe and/or shop at your store.
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Creative Director
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1.) The writers were not as involved in the development process. I've seen a few posts from Mr. Boyd and Mr. Jacobs indicating this. It sounds like this won't be as much of a problem with AP3.
2.) The notes were bundled with the PDF. Creating the PDF requires different people to work together, which means more scheduling and planning must be done ahead of time. One of the reasons cited for the delay was the loss of the art director. Perhaps you could solve this problem if the notes were published as a web enhancement. Eventually they could also be bundled in with the online supplements. I think this would be far more preferable than trying to squeeze the notes into the magazine..
1.) Correct; we're involving both Keith and Eric from the start this time, so they've got a lot more time to think about conversions. Plus, at our end, setting the bulk of the campaign away from the "mainland" makes it easier to integrate into any campaign.
2.) We haven't decided on how to distribute the conversion notes. A separate PDF is a good idea, but this doesn't completely bypass the problem of layout; the notes will still have to go through that process.
In any case, the purpose of an Adventure Path is not to flesh out regions of multiple campaign worlds. It's purpose is to provide a self-contained campaign. If it fleshes out regions in multiple campaign worlds, that's icing on the cake, but it can't be the focus of the project. Another way of saying, "We won't be dedicating a significant portion of our resources to campaign conversions," I suppose. Better to focus on making the campaign itself as awesome as it can be.
1.) Correct; we're involving both Keith and Eric from the start this time, so they've got a lot more time to think about conversions.
Awesome!
2.) We haven't decided on how to distribute the conversion notes. A separate PDF is a good idea, but this doesn't completely bypass the problem of layout; the notes will still have to go through that process.
The notes are just text; personally I'd be happy even if they were published like you're currently doing the preview articles. That's one thing I love about WotC, and why I visit their site every day: they have the best online support for their games.
In any case, the purpose of an Adventure Path is not to flesh out regions of multiple campaign worlds. It's purpose is to provide a self-contained campaign. If it fleshes out regions in multiple campaign worlds, that's icing on the cake, but it can't be the focus of the project. Another way of saying, "We won't be dedicating a significant portion of our resources to campaign conversions," I suppose. Better to focus on making the campaign itself as awesome as it can be.
Well of course not. I understand that it isn't the main goal, but it's definately a good thing. The AoW notes have already added quite a bit of new Eberron and FR lore. I'm just hoping we don't see a decrease; the best case scenario for me is to see an improvement in this area.
Have you heard any feedback from Mr. Boyd or Mr. Baker on their general direction for AP3? In Eberron I'm just curious about where it's going to start (Amedio = Xen'drik | Q'barra | Lhazaar | Breland) and where it's going to end (Abyss = Khyber | Shavarath | Lamannia), as these two items have already been defined for Greyhawk in the editorial.
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Creative Director
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Have you heard any feedback from Mr. Boyd or Mr. Baker on their general direction for AP3? In Eberron I'm just curious about where it's going to start (Amedio = Xen'drik | Q'barra | Lhazaar | Breland) and where it's going to end (Abyss = Khyber | Shavarath | Lamannia), as these two items have already been defined for Greyhawk in the editorial.
Not yet; we haven't asked them to start working on the conversions yet since the first adventrues aren't done yet. I'd guess, though, that the campaign'll probably start with Sasserine (I can't remember off the top of my head if we've indicated where this is in Eberron, alas...) and end on another plane. There's just too many crazy things going on in the Abyss for it to take place on the Material Plane, so Khyber's out.
There's just too many crazy things going on in the Abyss for it to take place on the Material Plane, so Khyber's out.
Remember though that in Eberron there are manifest zones. From a cosmological perspective, there are no definitive "laws" of what can and can't happen on the "Material Plane" of Eberron. The world changes based on the interaction of the planes and prime.
Take the AoW conversion note for the devil from Spire of Long Shadows as an example. In Greyhawk this fiend is scrying from the Nine Hells, but in Eberron he is scrying from Khyber.
Khyber has not been fully detailed. I would guess that 99% of it is uncharted territory, if not more. There could be areas deep underground that look nothing at all like the Underdark of other worlds. You could have areas deep underground that are so open and wide that there appears to be another sky. You could have volcanos and other areas not traditionally considered "underground". There may even be areas in Khyber where there appears to be sunlight and moons that are just the illusions of the rajahs that are bound there.
What are some of the crazy things? Perhaps by TRADITION they wouldn't fit in the underground of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, but as you know Eberron changes some of the traditions of D&D. That doesn't necessarily make it offbeat or incompatible, it just makes it new.
Other movies that I've recomended the authors of Savage Tide check out include (but aren't limited to) Lost Continent, Predator, Aliens, Lost, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and of course King Kong (old and new).
How can we forget that gem of the small screen: "Land of the Lost".
I for one am very pleased at the inclusion of a classic locale like the Isle of Dread, and I'm grateful to the Dungeon staff for their interest in making use of old 1st edition adventure sites. I still have my 1st edition copy of the isle of dread, and although I probably haven't even thumed through it in a year or two, and certainly haven't GM'd anyone through it in 10 years plus; it will be delightful to see how things on the island have changed, and how others might have remained the same. I'm glad the long-time Greyhawk fans who have stuck around with the game are getting our reward.
How can we forget that gem of the small screen: "Land of the Lost".
sorry, even better from my perspective although straying from the original idea, but a great movie:
The Land that Time Forgot..1975..so its a u-boat instead of Sinbad's dromon..big deal..
Okay, I might get slammed for this suggestion, but... here goes:
Why not skip the conversion-adaptation notes altogether, and have those authors (and their editors) work on other projects related to the AP3?
I'd personally vote for a content-richer AP3, all focused on Greyhawk or a generic world (and I'm one of those FR fanboys!)
Laeknir
I'd personally vote for a content-richer AP3, all focused on Greyhawk or a generic world (and I'm one of those FR fanboys!)
Do you think the content published in the magazine for the Age of Worms suffered from the conversion notes?
I would prefer to see the notes as their own separate web enhancement (not necessarily pdf) if their entry in the magazine would in any way sacrifice the meat of the adventures. Background information is only a page or two out of 20+ pages of encounters and room descriptions. Removing a few rooms or encounters may not make much of a difference, but what's the advantage?
Those of us with the internet should get a few bonus features, and I think this qualifies as one of them. I would think it would be much cheaper to publish an enhancement online then it would be to devote a few pages in the magazine. From a buyer's perspective I don't see these as "free" either, because the notes require the purchase of the magazine to be useful.
Do you think the content published in the magazine for the Age of Worms suffered from the conversion notes?
The only thing I'm saying (meaning that you shouldn't invent anything "implied") is that I would prefer that time usually spent on conversions or adaptations be spent on the published adventure itself.
I would prefer to see the notes as their own separate web enhancement (not necessarily pdf) if their entry in the magazine would in any way sacrifice the meat of the adventures.
Not me. I think they should skip conversions or adapatations of any kind. Don't really need them, don't really use them, so I don't want them. Other people might, but not me.
Eric Boyd, Keith Baker, and the editors can devote their wonderful talents and creative energies toward the adventures themselves. I know: maybe WoTC could publish a book specifically on "adapting adventures" that is campaign-specific, and you (and others who want that kind of thing) could buy it.
And I'm not getting drawn into another argument about what's "free" and what isn't, or what's more "expensive" for publication.
Harryhausen's Sinbad?
::happy, teary fanboy eyes::
Living masthead!
OOH, can you get some clay sculpture-like artwork for the AP? ;) Actually, that'd be really cool.
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When I saw The Isle of Dread in Dungeon a while back I said to myself "Please let them update this completely!" and now THIS!
I just need to say, I love everything the magazine is doing. The improvements over the last few years are astounding and the mag is in the best shape I have ever seem it in from a content stance. I have to offer my heartfelt thank you to all the people involved in Dungeon magazine. I vowed to remain a subscriber forever but with the use of Isle of Dread in an adventure path I have to say, you have earned my lifetime loyalty. Thank you, Paizo, James, and all involved. Life just got alot cooler!
FH
p.s. what does a lifetime subscription cost? ;)
The only thing I'm saying (meaning that you shouldn't invent anything "implied") is that I would prefer that time usually spent on conversions or adaptations be spent on the published adventure itself.
Do you feel the notes in any way made the last Adventure Path worse than the first? How so? If not, then why does is matter to you if they're produced or not?
I gotta say that part of the pull on this one for me is that I have been sending my players to Sasserine for over a year now for their major goods purchases in the Shackled City AP. Now I can actually give them a map of it.
-Neomorte
As the OP, I think this thread belongs on the Savage Tide board. Could one of the moderators please move us over there?
Harryhausen wansui! Didn't he also do a movie about the Perseus myth, "Clash of the Titans" or something like that?
For those of you who are worried about adaptation notes, please keep in mind that those of us running AP2 in Greyhawk have had to do a lot of research to make the whole thing come to life. I've purchased at least 10 download supplements and spent hours on Cannonfire and several other Greyhawk websites to get things like maps for overland travel to the Free City, city maps of the Free City, background on the politics of various relevant places, background on the Amedio Jungle, the Rift, and the Cairn Hills, etc. No nice, neat little detailed campaign handbooks to allow plug and play! It's been fun, mind you, and it gives the DM some flexibility instead of having everything completely canned, but it is time consuming, and it would have been hard to do AoW with the kind of verisimilitude I like in my game if I were having to do the research in support of a weekly game. So please don't complain too much about Greyhawk getting all the support from the Dungeon staff.
Not me. I think they should skip conversions or adapatations of any kind. Don't really need them, don't really use them, so I don't want them. Other people might, but not me.
Well then let me say that I need them, would definitely use them, and certainly want them. :)
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I for one am very pleased at the inclusion of a classic locale like the Isle of Dread, and I'm grateful to the Dungeon staff for their interest in making use of old 1st edition adventure sites. I still have my 1st edition copy of the isle of dread, and although I probably haven't even thumed through it in a year or two, and certainly haven't GM'd anyone through it in 10 years plus; it will be delightful to see how things on the island have changed, and how others might have remained the same. I'm glad the long-time Greyhawk fans who have stuck around with the game are getting our reward.
The Isle of Dread has already been revised in Dungeon #114. And, for the record, it was never set in GH. It belongs in the Known World (aka Mystara). GH has its own version called the Isle of the Ape (which is set in a demi-plane created by Zagyg). Personally, I wish they had used the latter.
The Isle of Dread has already been revised in Dungeon #114. And, for the record, it was never set in GH. It belongs in the Known World (aka Mystara). GH has its own version called the Isle of the Ape (which is set in a demi-plane created by Zagyg). Personally, I wish they had used the latter.
Speaking of Mystara, does anyone have thoughts on adapting Savage Tide to that setting? Shouldn't be too hard I think given that both the Isle of Dread and Demogorgon exist in that setting.
Håvard
For those of you who are worried about adaptation notes, please keep in mind that those of us running AP2 in Greyhawk have had to do a lot of research to make the whole thing come to life. I've purchased at least 10 download supplements and spent hours on Cannonfire and several other Greyhawk websites to get things like maps for overland travel to the Free City, city maps of the Free City, background on the politics of various relevant places, background on the Amedio Jungle, the Rift, and the Cairn Hills, etc. No nice, neat little detailed campaign handbooks to allow plug and play! It's been fun, mind you, and it gives the DM some flexibility instead of having everything completely canned, but it is time consuming, and it would have been hard to do AoW with the kind of verisimilitude I like in my game if I were having to do the research in support of a weekly game. So please don't complain too much about Greyhawk getting all the support from the Dungeon staff.
The research you did was not for adaptation, but for setting development.
DMs who want to run a campaign that provides enough freedom to allow players to feel immersed in the world cannot rely solely on the AP alone. Despite what Paizo claims, the APs are not a campaign in a box. Campaigns require world backdrops with organizations, locations and events beyond stat blocks and dungeon room descriptions.
What Paizo does to make up for this shortcoming is add references to a shared world. As you pointed out, some of these include:
Free City (of Greyhawk)
Amedio Jungle
The Rift
Cairn Hills
Ironically, the set world they've chosen is more esoteric and difficult to find support for; they could have chosen other licensed settings that are much easier to obtain information on. As you pointed out, it took you a great deal more work to flesh out our campaign.
It was easier than making everything up yourself though, right? If they're going to go through the effort of selecting areas with established background then they should choose areas where we can find the established background. If they aren't going to do this, for whatever reason, then adaptation notes are an alternative for the main purpose of the magazine (helping DMs).
Coming soon to a gaming store near you:
AP 4- The Quest for the Warforged Fey'ri descendant of Iuz who became a Athasian Dragon and used his Shi'ar abilities to become the new Shogun of Maztica.
I can't wait!
(Edit: I made an editorial goof - the players are all Chosen of Mystra who multiclass into Radiant Servants of Pelor. Without this crucial piece of information, the first adventure: Wailing of the Masses, makes no sense whatsoever.)
=)
Ironically, the set world they've chosen is more esoteric and difficult to find support for; they could have chosen other licensed settings that are much easier to obtain information on. As you pointed out, it took you a great deal more work to flesh out our campaign.
Takasi,
While I admire your campaign and your over the top dedication to Ebberon that's simply not the case. Even you aren't like me and others here who have been playing Greyhawk for 20+ years. All you need to get tons of ready made background material for AoW in Greyhawk is access to Canonfire, The Greyhawk Adventure begins PDF which is $4 dollars and optionally the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer (cheap). I even argue all you really need is the $4 PDF, thou the other things are nice.
Jumping into Ebberon or FR from scratch costs you a ton of money buying the campaign setting and all the various supplements. What's easier tracking down a few readily available PDF's on this site? Or forking over a few hundred on a licensed setting? Having to do the latter is actually the Antithesis of Dungeons premise to be able run the AP from the Core rulebooks alone. There is no irony there, sorry.
All you need to get tons of ready made background material for AoW in Greyhawk is access to Canonfire, The Greyhawk Adventure begins PDF which is $4 dollars and optionally the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer (cheap). I even argue all you really need is the $4 PDF, thou the other things are nice.
You've been playing in Greyhawk for 20+ years, so arguably you don't even need that. The rest of us aren't as fortunate. The material you're pointing to is outdated, spread out and lacking of a central authority for clarifying the shared world save the RPGA. Look at the Bibliography for the Savage Tide; already there are half a dozen references that to be tracked down and scoured through. As you've said, they're also very difficult to get in print format, which is the preferred method of using RPG material. You could print them yourself, but even that can be more expensive than buying a few sourcebooks.
Jumping into Ebberon or FR from scratch costs you a ton of money buying the campaign setting and all the various supplements. What's easier tracking down a few readily available PDF's on this site? Or forking over a few hundred on a licensed setting? Having to do the latter is actually the Antithesis of Dungeons premise to be able run the AP from the Core rulebooks alone. There is no irony there, sorry.
Dungeons premise is not to require players to hunt down obscure source material from decades of collected works either, yet you'd prefer they only choose to connect their backdrops to a world that recommends this? If the connections aren't required, then it doesn't matter if they provide these references from Greyhawk, Eberron, FR or all three does it?
Ahhh, Takasi. Welcome back.
You've been playing in Greyhawk for 20+ years, so arguably you don't even need that.
True for myself, I meant for the uninitiated. Example.
I have several players in our AoW campaign, who never played Greyhawk before. I game them all a copy and they were all quite up speed with the important aspects of the setting in no time. Being sent an easy to get free primer by your DM is lot easier then saying, hey go pick up the FRCS or ECS so you can learn about the setting.
The material you're pointing to is outdated, spread out and lacking of a central authority for clarifying the shared world save the RPGA.
Not anymore outdated than the Core FR material. LGG came out around the same time as the 3rd Ed. FRCS. Why is the LGG any less a central authority than the FRCS?
Look at the Bibliography for the Savage Tide; already there are half a dozen references that to be tracked down and scoured through As you've said, they're also very difficult to get in print format, which is the preferred method of using RPG material. You could print them yourself, but even that can be more expensive than buying a few sourcebooks.
From what I briefly see mentioned about Savage Tide and its GH references it seems this AP is going to be even more generic than the last. The more generic they are the more flexible they are to adapt to any setting. That just means more work for the DM. Why would you need to print PDF's out? printing a page or two (or a couple dozen) of reference material for a game is still alot cheaper than buying any settings core and splat books.
Dungeons premise is not to require players to hunt down obscure source material from decades of collected works either, yet you'd prefer they only choose to connect their backdrops to a world that recommends this?
No, the OP's detailed resource gathering is strictly his choice. Dungeon's premise is to run the AP using the Core Rules as a guide. You can have as little or as much setting as you desire. If you want to dig up old reference material or go by the newest license setting, great. They're are both mutually exclusive and the choice is yours . You tend to play what's familiar to you.
Your claim that some how Ebberon or FR is somehow easier to run as you have better access to background material just isn't viable. Any of the stuff is as easily available as you want to make it. You either go buy the books or dig up a few things on the net, again I'd say the latter is easier for the uninitiated, its certainly the cheapest.
Then it doesn't matter if they provide these references from Greyhawk, Eberron, FR or all three does it?
Hey I think the supplements are great, however the more "generic" they make AP there more people will ask for "Greyhawk" conversions as well. Then they'll need to do three conversions instead of two. So why not use generic GH references as base?, As its been shown here, a few GH references in the AP does not somehow make the AP a "Greyhawk" Adventure. You still have to tailor it to your game to the exent of detail you're comfortable with. Greyhawk is just the easiest setting to convert from as its the most generic, out of date or not. Eberron is hardest setting to convert from as its the most specific.
The bigger issue as I see it is that dropping references from WotC newest setting as the basic references in the AP would be seen as bit suspect. It would look like effort by Dungeon to push the new WotC material, and push its readers to "buy more books". Feeling like you had to go out and purchase the ECS in order to play the AP wouldn't be very cool. I don't know what would turn off people to the magazine more than that.
AFAIK Dungeon is under zero obligation to promote one setting over another. We are all free to take their published material in which ever direction we wish, I find your continued arguments to quanify Ebberon as somehow "core" in the pages of Dungeon somewhat bizarre, sorry.
True for myself, I meant for the uninitiated. Example.
I have several players in our AoW campaign, who never played Greyhawk before. I game them all a copy and they were all quite up speed with the important aspects of the setting in no time. Being sent an easy to get free primer by your DM is lot easier then saying, hey go pick up the FRCS or ECS so you can learn about the setting.
There's a huge difference between player initiation to a game world and DM campaign development. As you can see from the post that I originally replied to, that DM claimed it was more work to put together his campaign in Greyhawk than it would be in the more mainstream settings.
Not anymore outdated than the Core FR material. LGG came out around the same time as the 3rd Ed. FRCS. Why is the LGG any less a central authority than the FRCS?
The Central Authority is WotC, not the FRCS, and possibly the RPGA and occasionally Paizo, though I'm not sure if that's centralized because I'm not sure if they work together on their updated canon.
The FRCS is available as a new book from most online sites and has updated 3.5 books. The LGG is much more difficult to find and again very little support from the retail shelf.
From what I briefly see mentioned about Savage Tide and its GH references it seems this AP is going to be even more generic than the last. The more generic they are the more flexible they are to adapt to any setting. That just means more work for the DM. Why would you need to print PDF's out? printing a page or two (or a couple dozen) of reference material for a game is still alot cheaper than buying any settings core and splat books.
As the editors have said, even if they make one reference with a proper noun from a campaign setting then the adventure leaves the reader with the impression that they would need to purchase additional source material to get the most out of the adventure.
If you do decide to run a game in Greyhawk, no matter how generic the modules are, if you want to make the game realistic you need to be prepared. You need to have your world fleshed out beyond what's listed in the module. What if the adventurers want to do a side trek in a neighboring town? What if they want to have connections with some of the movers and shakers of the world? What if they want to display their character's knowledge of the world? Ideally you'll want more than a page or two (or even a dozen).
I love the adaption notes that Eric Boyd does for the Forgotten Realms, not only because it helps to set the adventures there, but often his adaptions remind me of things in the setting, characters, towns, etc. that I may have forgotten about, though if those NPCs, towns, adn the like were not introduced, it would not hurt anything. Eric has even expanded on issues that may someday come up in core Realms material in his expansions.
The first thing that strikes me is that people saying we don't need conversion notes remind me of people that tell us that we aren't smart enought to make up our own campaign settings as well. It always strikes me as funny that those of us that want more detail must therefore be uncreative. If you don't want to use conversion notes, don't. I don't think that Eric Boyd and Keith Baker writing conversion notes keeps them from writing more products that you would end up using otherwise. I could be wrong, but that's my gut reaction.
It is probably easiest to convert APs to Greyhawk (note, I said easiest, not easy), the next easiest to convert to Forgotten Realms, and the hardest to convert to Eberron. I would argue, even though I'm not an aficianado of that setting, that Eberron would require some guidance for most DMs even if there were no conversion notes.
Eberron is quite specialized in some of its conventions, having much different planes, rules of divinity, fiends, etc. Back in 2nd edition I doubt anyone would try to fit a "generic" AP into Dark Sun, Birthright, or DragonLance, though that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been tried. Mystara, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms, while all very different, shared a lot more conventions that the other 2nd edition settings.
All this having been said, nobody needs conversion notes, and the adventures are all very good on their own. If they Paizo did not get Eric and Keith to do the notes, I would not cancel my subscription, nor even complain TOO much. I am thankful for the effort however, and would like to make sure I say so.
I just don't think a lot of these arguements are particularly constructive. We are doing a lot of argueing about what amounts to which setting is better, and how you should use this one or that one, but the point is, we all have our favorite settings, and for some of us its a world of our own devising.
As you can see from the post that I originally replied to, that DM claimed it was more work to put together his campaign in Greyhawk than it would be in the more mainstream settings.
I wasn't taking that to be his meaning at all. I thought he was saying that it took just as much work to put the Campaign together as he had used another licensed setting. Essentially what he was saying is, When Dungeon is using Greyhawk as the base for the AP is not like they are giving a "free ride" to the DM. There is still alot of work to do what ever setting you use.
I assume by mainstream you mean current? as in Ebberon?
Otherwise how is FR any more mainstream then GH, despite WotC not supporting it, it doesn't seem to have lost it's popularity, in fact its more popular than ever.
The Central Authority is WotC, not the FRCS, and possibly the RPGA and occasionally Paizo, though I'm not sure if that's centralized because I'm not sure if they work together on their updated canon.
Ok, I misunderstood you there. I do agree that GH needs another
controlling factor other than RPGA for continuity and consistency. Paizo getting the setting would be a great thing as they done more to reinvigorate GH over the last couple years than about anyone.
The FRCS is available as a new book from most online sites and has updated 3.5 books. The LGG is much more difficult to find and again very little support from the retail shelf.
The LGG Less than 8 bucks from numerous sources on Amazon isnt hard to find. The FRCS still holds at $25. Remember the flexibilty of Greyhawk canon is part of its appeal. The amount FR canon material certainly has been know to be a turn off to the setting as well.
As the editors have said, even if they make one reference with a proper noun from a campaign setting then the adventure leaves the reader with the impression that they would need to purchase additional source material to get the most out of the adventure.
I agree, so if they are going to name drop. Why not Greyhawk ?It is cheapest to get into,. The material is readily available and is "as" easy to access as any other setting. The AP's are designed to be able to be run with just the core books. Greyhawk is the setting that is considered "core" as it's deities and characters are referenced in the core books. Greyhawk is still a very popular setting and is supported by Dungeon. Seems like a "No Brainer" to me. Again sorry, I just find zero merit and no irony in your arguments that somehow it would be easier on the DM if the AP was set in FR or Ebberon, I think people that dont like either of those settings would just not subscribe or look somewhere else for there adventures.
I wasn't taking that to be his meaning at all. I thought he was saying that it took just as much work to put the Campaign together as he had used another licensed setting.
No, he heavily implied that is was MORE difficult:
"I've purchased at least 10 download supplements and spent hours on Cannonfire and several other Greyhawk websites to get things like maps for overland travel to the Free City, city maps of the Free City, background on the politics of various relevant places, background on the Amedio Jungle, the Rift, and the Cairn Hills, etc. No nice, neat little detailed campaign handbooks to allow plug and play!"
I assume by mainstream you mean current? as in Ebberon?
Otherwise how is FR any more mainstream then GH, despite WotC not supporting it, it doesn't seem to have lost it's popularity, in fact its more popular than ever.
FR is far more popular than Greyhawk or Eberron. Go into any hobby shop and show them a picture of Drizz't and Elminster and ask them to identify them. Show them maps and ask them to identify them. Among the hardcore grognards yes Greyhawk is more popular than ever, but new players know much more about the worlds of Baldur's Gate and D&D Online.
No, he heavily implied that is was MORE difficult:
"I've purchased at least 10 download supplements and spent hours on Cannonfire and several other Greyhawk websites to get things like maps for overland travel to the Free City, city maps of the Free City, background on the politics of various relevant places, background on the Amedio Jungle, the Rift, and the Cairn Hills, etc. No nice, neat little detailed campaign handbooks to allow plug and play!"
Well again, the LLG gives a nice brief overwiew of those locations plus the continent map.
anyways, if you keep going here's the rest of it.
"It's been fun, mind you, and it gives the DM some flexibility instead of having everything completely canned, but it is time consuming, and it would have been hard to do AoW with the kind of verisimilitude I like in my game if I were having to do the research in support of a weekly game. So please don't complain too much about Greyhawk getting all the support from the Dungeon staff."
I took his entire post as leaning towards my take it on it. Realisitcally we are probably just reading what we want to read out of it.
FR is far more popular than Greyhawk or Eberron. Go into any hobby shop and show them a picture of Drizz't and Elminster and ask them to identify them. Show them maps and ask them to identify them. Among the hardcore grognards yes Greyhawk is more popular than ever, but new players know much more about the worlds of Baldur's Gate and D&D Online.
Hobby shop walls filled with WotC products are not an indication of whose playing what, they just indicate how much stuff WotC is pumping out. If you've noticed most FLGS these days are on the way "OUT" not "IN" as discount book sellers just crush them unless the store has stong community support.
I wouldn't be suprised if Ebberon is currently out selling FRand it's proven the generic setting books are the best sellers.
Without hard sales figures you don't just really know. I won't deny FR isnt popular ( I'm suprised we haven't seen Drizzit doing a Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of a city bus.)
We are talking about who is using FR as a setting for Dungeons AP. I own about a dozen FR books, but haven't run an FR game since 3rd Ed game out, I bought some books, but just don't play the setting. I am sure I am not alone in that. From the general posts on this board, it looks to me as people are Running the AP in Either GH or Ebberon with FR being a solid third, maybe I am wrong?, but that's how it looks to me.
You cannot hold computer games to any kind of standard of whats being represented in the PNP world the crossover is limited. While exposeur to D&D via computer games is a good thing, the percentage of people that actual move to the gaming table is small. While the Baldur's Gate and IWD games were wildly successful it's setting was largely irrelevant to its success. As for D&D online , they can't give that thing away, I played the beta and in 2 weeks I was bored to tears on top of that the Ebberon influence is very limited at best, my bet it's servers wil be offline this time next year.
anyways, if you keep going here's the rest of it.
"It's been fun, mind you, and it gives the DM some flexibility instead of having everything completely canned, but it is time consuming, and it would have been hard to do AoW with the kind of verisimilitude I like in my game if I were having to do the research in support of a weekly game. So please don't complain too much about Greyhawk getting all the support from the Dungeon staff."
I took his entire post as leaning towards my take it on it. Realisitcally we are probably just reading what we want to read out of it.
Perhaps, but reread the bold statement again in the context of the entire post. I may be wrong, but I think your take on the statement is the "completely canned" refers to the licensed setting material. I think he was referring to the Dungeon modules.
Hobby shop walls filled with WotC products are not an indication of whose playing what, they just indicate how much stuff WotC is pumping out. If you've noticed most FLGS these days are on the way "OUT" not "IN" as discount book sellers just crush them unless the store has stong community support.
I wouldn't be suprised if Ebberon is currently out selling FR
and it's proven the generic setting books are the best sellers.
I'm talking about polling fresh blood, the newcomers to D&D. Very few know who Iuz is or who the Flan are.
We are talking about who is using FR as a setting for Dungeons AP.
The basic question should be "Did more FR and Eberron DMs choose AoW vs Shackled City because they knew it was supported with conversion notes?" I believe the answer is yes. I know at least one of them who did. :)
As for D&D online , they can't give that thing away, I played the beta and in 2 weeks I was bored to tears on top of that the Ebberon influence is very limited at best, my bet it's servers wil be offline this time next year.
Worse games have lasted much longer and the license alone will keep it up and running. From the developer's perspective the hardest part is over. Now all they need to do is pump out more content, and they seem to be on the right track so far.
Without hard sales figures you don't just really know. I won't deny FR isnt popular ( I'm suprised we haven't seen Drizzit doing a Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of a city bus.)
Avast, ye scurvy dogs! I be hijackin' this-here thread and be thankin' ye for th' thought. If I were able to pull this kind of booty from the galleons of Paizo that I be boardin', I'd be one happy pirate!
Arrr!
(Seriously. This argument. Death. Been done to. On numerous forums. Done now? Kthx.)
Gwydion - Best. Post. Ever.
(and I almost said that about your first post on the thread)
Awww...thanks!
I try very hard to be the polite Southern gentleman. Sometimes, though, the snark, it comes through.
I blame Iuz. No, scratch that. It's all the flumph's fault.
...I'm suprised we haven't seen Drizzt doing a Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of a city bus...
No, but I hear he's doing a Vegas tour...
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...I'm suprised we haven't seen Drizzt doing a Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of a city bus...No, but I hear he's doing a Vegas tour...
Naah, that's Blink Doggy Dogg-his album's called "tha drizznit."
How can we forget that gem of the small screen: "Land of the Lost".
Quite easily, thank you very much :P
That's all a campaign needs -- sleestaks. Or is sleestak also plural?
Jack
Oh, yeah -- I see another argument starting (actually, the same argument for the third time). This time around, can we please spend less time trying to be right at all costs?
Thanks,
Jack
How can we forget that gem of the small screen: "Land of the Lost".
Quite easily, thank you very much :P
That's all a campaign needs -- sleestaks. Or is sleestak also plural?
Did you know Larry Niven wrote an episode? I've got the dvd set with his commentary. How sick is that? "Grumpy! Run!"
Niven is my hero -- I don't even know how to respond to this horrifying news :o
Gwydion - Best. Post. Ever.
(and I almost said that about your first post on the thread)
Heh, two thumbs up here also. Best reply I've seen on the boards. :-)
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I think it would be great if there was an Easter Egg encounter in Savage Tide where you could encounter a lost and deluded extra-planar sage hailing from Morgrave University named Takasi.
He could be living in an attic apartment in Sasserine, filled with esoteric scryings and treatises denying that he is actually living on the world of Oerth. Trying to forge mechanical men, pairing off halflings with rabid dinosaurs hoping they will become friends, speaking vaguely of lost continents completely inhabited by dragonkind. That would be a hoot.
And before I get blasted with replies, I am a big fan of Eberron, Greyhawk, and the Realms. I have been playing long enough to have grognard status, and firmly believe that Greyhawk is and always should be the default setting for things of this nature.
The Dungeon staff have been fabulous with providing conversion material and should be lauded for this. Any DM worth his salt can convert one of these AP's to his setting of preference with a token effort.
Feel free to skewer me with more arguments if you wish Tak, but please, remember, this is all in good fun.
Oh, yeah -- I see another argument starting (actually, the same argument for the third time).
If anyone has any other guesses or suggestions for where Sasserine, the Amedio Jungle and the Abyss belong in Forgotten Realms and Eberron feel free to add more to the discussion than arguing over whether conversions are warranted.
The proper noun Greyhawk locations and lore referenced in the 135 editorial slightly alienates FR and Eberron DMs who might consider running Savage Tide in their setting of choice. If they were able to come up with these basic facts for Greyhawk then they are slightly ignoring (whether anyone thinks it matters of not) the other settings if they haven't bothered to come up with the basic locations yet.
Even the choice of Breland, Q'barra, Xen'drik or somewhere else for Sasserine will influence open-ended, ancillary options available to DMs. I also hope the staff doesn't automatically throw out Khyber as an option simply because it's on the prime material plane; you can do quite a bit with manifest zones, demons and the Underdark.
If they do go with conversion notes I hope they are similar to the ones provided for AoW. I would prefer they do them as a separate web update. In general, I would like to see more web enhancements from Paizo. Specifically, it would be nice to see some bonus material that had to be cut from the magazine.