I just ran my group through the Labyrinth of Vecna in 3FOE last night. I'm posting this because I read a thread where Erik Mona posted that mazes didn't work in D&D, which caused me to think about why this is the case. I agree that they are problematic, and this is one possible solution for those DMs out there looking for a way to make this encounter more fun.
When my group opened the Vecna door, they were each teleported into random individual spots in the maze. I drew the maze out on the battlemat and numbered each axis, rolling a d24 and a d30 to determine where they landed (that’s right, 2 dice proving their worth in a world that shuns them!). Of course, this had to be fudged a little to accommodate walls and such. I had the map on the table in front of me and all of my players sitting about 6 feet away, unable to see the maze. I also split up the bad guys into patrols, since they knew about the teleport trap. They had no idea where intruders would be popping up, so they spread out.
I described the choices in direction that each PC had, and they were able to visualize it for the most part, but it was disorienting. That's exactly what I was going for. I wanted them to be off their game. They didn't know where they were and they had no one to watch their back! It created a sense of urgency and danger. I think this is lost when the entire group just hacks their way through a maze as it is being drawn.
As fate would have it, the samurai and the ranger/rogue found each other within 2 rounds. The bard was trapped in a 5x10 room with no apparent doors. She found the secret door after a few rounds and was only 15 feet away from the cleric, who was already locked in combat. The NPC fighter (who was played by a visiting friend) found himself staring at a pair of kenku right off the bat. The patrols kept finding him, even though I was rolling randomly for their movements. He barely moved the entire time and had a pile of dead kenku all around him when it was over. I think the group enjoyed this encounter; it certainly made for a nice change of pace for me.
I can see where other DMs may have a problem if the place where they play is not set up to handle the logistics described above. Otherwise, I think the basic idea could be transplanted effectively.
Happy dice-chucking!
I'm fixing to run this encounter in a couple of weeks--more or less as written. My newly ordered "tact-tiles" just arrived today, and I'm looking forward to testing their utility. I'm going to erase behind the party as they proceed into the maze and can no longer see where they've been, and pull off erased tiles and recenter the party on the playing table so that they have only a vague idea how far they have moved in which direction from the maze entrance. I'll be tracking the kenku on a map behind my DM screen. If they try to map the maze, it will slow them down by a factor of ten, and the kenku and weasels will converge on them--possibly snatching or destroying the map while ganging up on the party. Should be interesting.
I drew the maze out on the battlemat and numbered each axis, rolling a d24 and a d30 to determine where they landed (that’s right, 2 dice proving their worth in a world that shuns them!).
There's a Cambodian diner down the street from where I live that has 30 items on the menu and a d30 on the counter for anyone who's having trouble deciding. :)
I'd never seen a d30 before going in there...still haven't seen a d24.
I'd never seen a d30 before going in there...still haven't seen a d24.
one of the couples in my gaming group has a christmas tradition: weird dice for everyone!
the got us all D24s this year, and last year the got us "2d6" - a little d6 inside a clear plastic larger d6.
D24:
http://www.nobleknight.com/imagecode/resize.asp?filename=24sidedred.gif& ;width=86&height=111
Peruhain...
That's a great idea for the tactiles. I have been steering my players into every other region of the dungeon in worry of the maze section. We have a very unfocsed group (2 kids running aorund as we paly) and only play for 3 to 4 hours at a time, so I was legitimately worried. The tactiles erasing behind would be perfect.
I've been using the tiles for about 2 months and can't imagine working with out them. Not just for dungeons, but we recently had a session where they had to solve a number puzzle. It was actually the beginning of the 3FoE. So I had a puzzle on each door, wrote it out on each tile and handed them out so they could erase and rewrite as they needed, and hand the tiles around themselves. They are cool as hell. I was a bit worried i would need 2 sets, but so far I've never even used all the ones I have at once. I would also recommend Mage Knight Dungeons dressings for scenery. Goes over real well for us.
My group may be hitting this tomorrow (that or the Grimlocks). My current plan is to just show them on the battle mat and then have the Kenku and Weasels fade in and out of view
It will be easier than having to describe every twist and turn (one player is extremely anal and gets pissy when he doesn't understand what I'm saying).
However, It would be helpful to keep track of where the opposing forces are. I have a laptop with me - Are there any good freeware map systems that are easy enough to use without too much problem - alternatively are there any commerical mappers that are useful for mazes?
Also, has anyone used the Kenku's mimicry abilities to good use? I was thinking of having them mimic the Elf NPC from the first party - With a paladin in this party, it could be fun to get them to pursue the damsel in distress smack into the dire weasels.
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Thanks, everyone, for contributing your thoughts! I've been trying to imagine how this'll play out for us for some time, and what you shared here is getting me closer to a plan.
First off, a nifty and cost-effective mapping strategy: large sheets of plexiglass over the paper battlemats included with the DMG and with D&D Miniatures starter sets. We use multi-colored Crayola washables to create the maps, and a spray bottle and paper toweling to clear 'em. I have three different sheets of plexi, and just swap them out as needed. They work great.
My plan is to print and laminate the map of the maze and keep it behind my screen. I'll track the movements of characters on it using Vis a Vis overhead projector markers. Each time they move (and move through secret doors), I'll adjust their map, erasing areas they can no longer see and adding new ones. I plan to turn the map around on the tabletop at different times (for instance, rotating it once or twice) to really make them disoriented. Hopefully, they'll have the spell "know direction" on hand as a scroll (I always do this as a player) or think to mark the walls as they proceed.
Should be a lot of fun!
Besides the old baby crying or woman screaming for help trick, I'm having the kenkus use a series of dog barks as codes to alert their comrades if they notice the party entering the inner sanctum--five short barks followed by one, two, or three to indicate west, central, or east door. They use a caterwauling sound to indicate when they've made contact with intruders, so that the other kenku groups can move closer and set up ambushes in the surrounding parts of the maze.
If the party gets split up, I'll have the kenkus imitate other party members (if they've heard them and know which ones are not with the group they encounter) to try to lure them into ambush.
One other thing to note: I think there are some problems with the tactics for the acolytes and the faceless one as written.
The acolytes don't have message prepared, and even if they did they would have to point at TFO to activate the spell--so it is useless as a way of warning him of the presence of intruders. I'm going to have one acolyte use his scroll of web, and if necessary color spray to slow the party down while the other warns TFO. The allip, as an incorporeal creature, can move through the web to harrass the party while the acolyte buffs.
Meanwhile, TFO and one acolyte buff in the lab, with the other two acolytes stationed at the doors of the lab. If the party arrives while they're still buffing, the sentry acolyte casts color spray then slams the door, and TFO uses hold portal to slow them down while he finishes buffing.
If possible TFO will move to the inner sanctum to combat the party--he doesn't want to trash his lab, and if he summons the fiendish huge monstrous centipede there, it'll be squeezed. So, he casts that spell in the sanctum instead, and his acolyte who has been holding the fort dismisses the web immediately after the centipede arrives to give it room to open up a can of whoopass on the party.
From there it's pretty straightforward--the acolytes will not only cast spells, but act as secondary meat shields for TFO. If TFO falls, I'll have the acolytes and any other disciples of Vecna present flee (color spray, web scrolls and gaseous form potions may be useful) and hide in the maze, then I'll start the clock ticking on the Ebon Aspect. The defeated Vecnans may or may not harrass the party on their way out, depending on circumstances.
Besides the old baby crying or woman screaming for help trick, I'm having the kenkus use a series of dog barks as codes to alert their comrades if they notice the party entering the inner sanctum--five short barks followed by one, two, or three to indicate west, central, or east door. They use a caterwauling sound to indicate when they've made contact with intruders, so that the other kenku groups can move closer and set up ambushes in the surrounding parts of the maze.
If the party gets split up, I'll have the kenkus imitate other party members (if they've heard them and know which ones are not with the group they encounter) to try to lure them into ambush.
I love the dog barks... I have a dwarf that's been wanting to speak orcish, so that was what I was going to use... Heh heh heh.
Man, I HOPE they go into the maze tomorrow... *rubs hands together*.
The maze was a headache.
I let the group draw the labyrinth as they progressed. Meanwhile, I had a page-sized copy of the maze behind my screen, which I used for tracking the positions of the kenku relative to the party. I taped my copy to a piece of cardboard & used straight pins (from the fabric section at your local dept store) with different-colored heads to represent the kenku rogues, the leader, lieutenant, weseals, & the party. It worked okay, but still very slow.
At one point, seeing me sticking the pins in, one my players asked if I was using a voodoo doll to kill the characters.
Not looking forward to the HoHR maze, but at least it has fewer occupants.
The maze was a headache.
At one point, seeing me sticking the pins in, one my players asked if I was using a voodoo doll to kill the characters.
LOL
Wow. We had a great time with the Labyrinth. We've been fortunate enough to play with an LCD projector mounted to the ceiling. I get the maps from Paizo then alter as needed in Photoshop. Because of the setup I was able to reveal portions of the maze, then when they moved on, "black" them out again. We all loved it. The players did get disoriented at times as to which tunnel lead where, especially when they "back tracked".
They were soooo frustrated that the Kenku could get around so quickly. The highlight of the night was when a kenku stumbled out of a secret door to reveal "how they were doing it". The players looked for a couple of secret doors and we're blown away when I could reveal the secret door on the projected map. It took a while to get the layers setup correctly in Photoshop and alter the "top layer" map so they wouldn't suspect "hidden" secret doors, but well worth it! Best use of the setup yet!
Thanks Paizo for the perfect use of our projector.
Mike S.
I'm probably going to have Smenk tell them how to get through *most* of the maze.
I've run 3 Faces twice now, for two different groups.
First time through, I ran the adventure as written, one of the players mapped on graph paper as we went, and they made search checks after search checks after search checks until they were absolutely sure they didn't miss a secret door. It was slow, boring book-keeping, and getting to the Faceless One's lair felt like waking up from a long coma.
Second time through, I left a hint in Theldrik's journal that the Faceless One for all of his tricks, is easy enough to find if you just keep north. I described the labyrinth as twisting and dark, and had the pc's make a survival check (dc 20) to discern north. Failure meant they wandered the labyrinth for an extra hour, and encountered one of the kenku groups. Success meant they found their way through safely. I did key one group of kenku as guards at the entrance, and the kenku boss's group at the only(!) exit, so they couldn't get out without fighting at least two groups of kenku. The adventure went much faster, with fewer headaches, and more fun had by all.
I'll probably do something similar in HoHR, althogh splitting up the party and playing with dopplegangers makes it a little bit trickier.
I also have an overhead projector and will be dealing with this in a similar fashion, using photoshop and having the PC's, in order of initiative start exploring.
I'm running this using a low magic campaign, so it will be entertaining to see how remembers their torch and who gets left in the dark :)
Well, time to report that the labyrinth went pretty well when I ran it as described above. It was time-consuming, though--two sessions just to get through the maze.
My techniques for causing disorientation and a "fog of war" effect didn't work all that well after the initial shock of kenku popping out of nowhere wore off. My son appears to have very good spatial orientation skills and has been taking a drafting class, and erasing parts of the maze and spinning the battlemat several times didn't faze him in the least. He had the maze pretty well memorized after one pass through each section, to the point where he was able to pick out where the closed (and thus reconcealed) secret doors were. I suppose it must be easier to do this with the bird's-eye graphic representation you get on a battle mat than it would be if you were actually wandering in such a maze.
Anyhow, it took a couple of encounters with kenku popping out of nowhere for him to realize the maze was riddled with secret doors, and from there on out, he took on most of the maze in combat mode--chasing kenku as they appeared and pushing on sections of wall when he suspected a secret door--he ended up surprising several kenku who were lying in wait in the secret passages. It was, however, a very interesting battle, and did a great job of forcing the party to use up a substantial part of their resources before taking on the more challenging encounter with TFO and his acolytes.
(This battle went for about 30 rounds despite the fact that the party caught them off-guard. The kenku were so decimated that there were only a few disabled ones licking their wounds in secret passages far from the entrance to the sanctum, so the acolytes discovered the party only when they heard the plate-armoured paladin walking in through their bunkroom. The tactics I had planned for them above worked very well, though--I consider it a success when the bad guys get a chance to use almost all their prepared spells, potions, and scrolls, and TFO ended this long combat trying to take out the party's bard and wizard with his dagger because he was completely out of magical resources. Of course the party only had about two spells left and five charges on their wand of cure light wounds when the Ebon Aspect came rampaging into the Vecna temple.
Mike Mearls--if you're on these boards--you did an outstanding job setting up some nasty tactical encounters in this module!
James Jacobs & co.--I hope you'll consider including my tactical suggestions above when you're refining this section of the module for the hardcover version.
Fun was definitely had by all!
I just ran through the maze last night, and overall it went pretty well. We started off with the PCs mapping the maze and moving round-by-round. Kenku rogues would pop up here and there and snipe at the PCs with crossbows or alchemists fire. Soon the PCs were peeking around every corner before advancing. However, after about 30 minutes of this, the PCs had killed 3 Kenku and the maze was getting boring (at least for me). The PCs knew exactly where to go to get into the rest of the temple because a wounded Theldrick had walked through two days before, leaving a trail of dried blood right to the secret door. Still, a good time was had by all and next week its the Faceless One!
I did exactly what Rob Bastard described above, using colored pushpins. Drawing the map (I never erased it) was tedious (and of course I screwed it up) but the general snipe-and-chase resulted in a split party and many tense moments.
And, of course, when the Aspect appeared, the characters ran back into the maze(!). Suddenly, the hunters were the hunted. At one point the mage was hiding 10 feet away from the monster, cowering behind a secret door while the critter sniffed the air and tried to figure out where lunch went.
The fighter eventually snuck up on it and took it down toe-to-toe. It was one of the more memorable moments in the game so far.
So... I'll be running this in 10 days, and I'm not sure what the best way is yet.
I like the idea of the survival checks with a party of kenku at the beginning and the boss at the end. I'm thinking about drawing a few different "lost areas," small mazes riddled with secret doors that the players will fight in when they fail their survival checks. This way, I can capatilze on the thrill of Kenku "walking through walls" without all the boredom of mapping a maze. In many ways, this would be like traditional wilderness gaming.
But, I've got 10 days. I'm open to suggestions.
The maze itself isn't actually very difficult, I think, and doesn't really require the PCs to map it to figure it out. Even if they get lost, they'll find their way back to a familiar section pretty easily--at least that was my experience. The difficult part is when your PCs start chasing kenku through the maze helter-skelter, which they pretty much have to do to kill them if you play them the right way. This is time consuming and really requires a battlemat or tact-tiles, unless you figure out an alternate way of running it.
It's guerrilla warfare, baby! If players and DM have low patience for this sort of thing, just replace the encounter entirely, or make the doors to the inner sanctum non-secret so that the party can get to the meat of this section of the adventure after a token flavor encounter or two with the kenku. You can then have TFO or an apprentice cast a spell in the outer sanctum, which calls the rest of the kenku in for a big set piece battle. (Bearing in mind that the party will have wasted fewer resources before the battle, but might be overwhelmed by the numbers--if you do this you might want to cut two of the acolytes of Vecna and limit the number of labyrinth denizens who respond to the call, or cut down on TFOs monster summoning resources.
I ran the labyrinth as written. I drew out the corridors as the PC's saw them, which wasn't as tedious as some percieve because most of the time line of sight is only 20'. Whenever a kenku opened a door the party could see I drew an S in the wall. If the kenku closed the door the PC's still had to search for it. At first the party refused to be seperated and they dealt with the first group with minimal wounds. The dire weasels and the second group caused more concern, but were still dealt with fairly quickly. The Pc's spent more time readying for doors to open than chasing anything down. Then they ran into the third group. Things started the same until the necklace of fireballs came into play. The cleric dropped and bedlam ensued. The party ran in three different directions. I have to say my players worked with me though. Even though the players could see their figs on the battlemat, when the kenku mimiced stuff the party members were shouting to stay aware of each other, they went with it. Eventually the kenku were killed and no party member died, but it worked pretty well. Two of my players emailed me after the session to say that they really enjoyed it. That has never happened before.
I did the same as Ghettowedge did. However after 2 session playing tag with the kenkus in the maze they gave up (with one kenku escaping) and went to the cleared out Hextor temple to recover hitpoints and spells. During their rest (only 4 of the potential 8 players were present) they heard chanting in the central cathedral. They went to investigate and, with much of luck and good stratigies, they managed to beat the faceless one and his remaining henchmen in the catedral before finally luring the emerging Ebon Aspect and defeating it in the arena of the Hextor temple using the same tricks (and some good bluff v.s. sense motive checks) that the former Hextor templars used against them. In the end they managed to beat the Ebon aspect also in spite of me and them dreading a TPK many times during the session. I must give my (then present) players credit here.
In the end they were happily frustrated with the maze, the sneaky kenku and the secret doors. It brought out the best in them in tactical thinking (expect the giving up at the end) and they managed to prevale through some very tricky situations.
We did the maze and it went incredibly well. I just kept describing the maze to them, "10 feet ahead there is a turn to the east, and to the west" and so on and so on. Every time they passed a secret door the kenkus would attack.. After about 5-6 attacks they were quite scared but they made it out.
This part of the adventure went ALOT better than I thought it would.
I love the dog barks... I have a dwarf that's been wanting to speak orcish, so that was what I was going to use... Heh heh heh.Man, I HOPE they go into the maze tomorrow... *rubs hands together*.
Well, they did the labyrinth last Thursday and I think it worked really well.
I enlarged the map as much as possible and taped it to heavy box cardboard. Then I got a bunch of those little map pins and taped labels on them (K1-12, KB (Kenku Boss), KS (Kenku Sorcerer) and W1-2) and then used the pins for me to keep track of their positions.
I revealed the labyrinth as the party went - kinda slow at first, and it was tricky, but it was worth it the first time a kenku appeared BEHIND the party without any visible entrances.
The combat wasn't too bad on the party, except toward the end when the Kenku Boss let loose with a certain magic item, bringing the mage down to near death. The rogues couldn't get far enough away to use sneak attacks from darkenss to good effect, and the two tanks had darkvision to 60', so that was no good.
One thing I'd mention is that the module's advice to reserve so much space on a battlemap seems wrong (at least I ran out of space), so I'd double check.
If I had more time, I would have sent a kenku into the inner sanctum to pull out some of the sorcerors, but it was 11 pm on a worknight, so the Faceless One will have to wait till later.
I went with the dog barks as well, great idea. I also drew the map as they saw things, wasn't terrible. I photocopied the map and used little pushpins to track where the various Kenku were at.
The boss fired twice at the group, almost killing one of the players, but the boss ran off before they could kill him (he's out there somewhere).
I can tell the players are agravated by these kenku popping out of nowhere all over the place. One of the characters has taken to smashing the walls every 5 feet in an effort to find the secret doors.