|
Some people love dungeon crawls, but a lot of the more mature players are expecting something more involved. I think Wizards is trying to go in that direction with Eberron, in part to keep people from leaving D&D when they outgrow the "kick in the door" style of play. It's more mature, a little more adult, because there's a lot more money in marketing games to people who can afford to pay more for them.
But when you put it that way, it seems you are implying that only Eberron is capable of providing that kind of 'mature' game play. I would have to disagree. The level of maturity of a game depends almost entirely on the players and DM. I don't see how it could rely that much upon setting. So a game set in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk should allow for the same level 'maturity' as a game in Eberron, as long as that is what the players want. Afterall, I'm playing in what I consider to be a more mature, story-driven game, and my group isn't playing in Eberron.
But when you put it that way, it seems you are implying that only Eberron is capable of providing that kind of 'mature' game play. I would have to disagree. The level of maturity of a game depends almost entirely on the players and DM. I don't see how it could rely that much upon setting. So a game set in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk should allow for the same level 'maturity' as a game in Eberron, as long as that is what the players want. Afterall, I'm playing in what I consider to be a more mature, story-driven game, and my group isn't playing in Eberron.
I don't think that anyone's saying that other game settings are immature.
Sure, Wizards has been trying to emphasize a certain style of play with Eberron, but in the end it's totally up to your DM and your players whether you're kicking in the dungeon door or wining and dining with the nobles and their intrigues.
Take their suggestion as seriously as you take the suggestions of anyone else who is selling you "style" (eg. perfume and car merchants).
Some people love dungeon crawls, but a lot of the more mature players are expecting something more involved. I think Wizards is trying to go in that direction with Eberron, in part to keep people from leaving D&D when they outgrow the "kick in the door" style of play. It's more mature, a little more adult, because there's a lot more money in marketing games to people who can afford to pay more for them.
I have to say that I see little effort from WotC to reach out to an older, more affluent crowd (or any other identified market).
I do get the sense that they're only interested in campaign worlds that promise lots of associated novels (at which GH failed miserably, BTW). The motivation would be the fantastic success of FR fiction, of course.
For what it's all worth,
Jack
I gotta say this at least once:
Before Eberron came out, I had my homebrew, and was working on some finishing details.
--snipped huge list--
Indeed, this has happened to me surprisingly often! I suppose it's just a matter of "great minds think alike", or in some cases, people drawing from the same influences.
I wrote a weapon property giving weapons +1d6 sneak attack, before a basically identical version appeared in Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might, and another in I think Wizards' Arms and Equipment Guide. I had a character whose intelligent sword's spirit appeared to him in a vision as a humanoid avatar, perhaps a year before I saw the same thing happen in the anime Bleach. I sent an article query to Dragon about a mysterious deity of shadow I'd used in my game, only to find such a deity detailed in Dragon magazine #322.
In your case, draconic influences are perhaps a relatively obvious theme, since dragons are right there in the name of the game. Monte Cook's Diamond Throne setting had ruins built by giants to explain why corridors were always ten feet wide. Entire nations destroyed by unknown power are very like the idea of divine wrath or nuclear weapons. I also had a nation ruled by liches, which had no compunctions against using undead. Magical shards that fall from the sky bringing strange materials are very much like meteorites, and if I remember, magical crystals falling from the sky were central to the plot of the Amiga game Dragonstone.
Nobody can really say that Eberron is a paragon of originality; in some cases this is an advantage because we can relate it to things we know, and in others it's not relevant as long as it works. For example, the northwestern demon wastes housing an ancient city of mixed fiends is very much like the home of the Darklords in the Lone Wolf setting, who reside in a city named Helgedad. The Mourning was just a fantasy equivalent to the nuclear weapons dropped on Japan to end World War 2, and many of the nations bear passing resemblances to real-world countries to some extent.
But when you put it that way, it seems you are implying that only Eberron is capable of providing that kind of 'mature' game play. I would have to disagree.
You are correct. Eberron is geared toward that kind of play, but there's nothing stopping you from doing "kick in the door" in Eberron or "roleplaying and intrigue" in Greyhawk. What Eberron is doing is giving you a lot of tools to play a more modern game, while still fully supporting the traditional style. If you want to dungeon crawl and monster-whomp, you've got Droaam, you've got Darguun, you've got the Valenar elves, you've got expeditions to Xen'Drik. The further you go from Sharn, the more old-style monster whomping and dungeoneering you can find.
|
Dryder:
That is an excellent solution to a game-issue. I hope your players are appreciative.
The closest I ever get to playing anymore is reading these boards. Posts like yours keep me coming back.
Bill - I hope reading these boards will also open you the way to play again!
Reading about D&D is great, but playing is even better! You have to find another game of D&D!!!In the meantime, let us enjoy these boards!
And sorry for kind of hijacking this thread for a short while ;)
Bill - I hope reading these boards will also open you the way to play again!
Reading about D&D is great, but playing is even better! You have to find another game of D&D!!!
In the meantime, let us enjoy these boards!
Preach on, Dryder. Preach on.
My group ran through the first few published Eberron adventures and they're okay (if a little railroad-y). There are some bits of the setting that are interesting and I enjoyed playing a warforged character.
However, it's unlikely that my group will play in Eberron again. I'd say that Eberron is a 'change of pace' setting but no replacement for our other ongoing campaigns.
I personally think that Eberron contains too many disparate elements to get a handle on. I didn't dislike the magical technology elements, as many seem to, but I found the whole Indiana Jones/private eye/noir thing just a really odd fit for D&D. Few of the cultures/countries really inspired me much either.
|
Magical shards that fall from the sky bringing strange materials are very much like meteorites, and if I remember, magical crystals falling from the sky were central to the plot of the Amiga game Dragonstone..
Magical shards falling like meteorites from the sky was also in a series of books that I think were called the Demonwars Trilogy by R.A.Salvatore (the demon awakens was one of the books), but that was something that happened on an isolated island once every few years or so. The harvesting of them was Uber-dangerous and they needed to be gathered almost immediately to retain their magical properties. He is an oft maligned author but can write some good stuff if he lays off the Drow. I own most of his stuff and it really is a mixed bag sometimes.
FH
I am a fan of eberron not because it is perfect, but because I thinks an improvement over the Forgotten Realms. If the Realms has Drizzt, Elminister (sp), and so many other high-level NPCs runnig around, why are there even adventurers. In Eberron, the highest level ruler is King Kaius something like 13 CR, and he's a vampire. There are also some epic-level challenges, like the rakshasa Lords of Dust, the nightmare posessed Inspired, and the draconic Chamber, But there movements are subtle and your probly never going to fight them out right.
Another thing I like about Eberron is how it handles Gods and alignments. Gods aren't even definitely real, and a clerics power comes from there actual faith If you see a Black Dragon, it might be good, and a Gold Dragon might be evil. It's like the real world. If it was like normal alignment in other campaigns, it would be like saying all of this kind of dog are pure evil, but all of this type are lawful good.
I don't know how to quote, but someone mentioned that high magic would have changed the way the world works. The point of Eberron is that it has changed the world. House Sivis uses magic to send messages across the continent. House Orien uses Lightning rails, powered by magic stones and air elementals to speed travel and house Lyrandar uses airships the same way. Much more would have been posible if the Last War hadn't killed off the worlds best minds. If you want to see a setting where magic hasn't done anything to the world, look at the Realms.
Also, everthing is changed , and I find it a relief. Elfs aren't treehuggers, there Death worshippers or war obsessed nomads. Halflings aren't kleptomaniacs, there dino-riding hunter-gatherers. Dwarfs are miners, but also bankers and merchants. Gnomes aren't care-free little humans, they're inventors, assassins, and politians. Some fight with words, while others, like the Trust, fight with blades. In case you like the old stereotypes, theres a small place for them, too.
Sorry if this was a rant, or if it offended anyone. I also just noticed that I repeated what other posters had said sometimes. And I didn't mention GREYHAWK because i've never played in it. Just for the record, I also like Dark Sun.
|
Contributor
|
I might be missing the boat on this one but...
Perhaps, I'm just easy to please as I can pretty much find something to love in every setting. Still, I have great difficulty running published settings stock; as the players inevitably read everything beforehand, removing the elements of wonder and suprise that were my initial attraction to the game so many years ago. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I really don't care what name anyone slaps on a published setting or even if the material was designed for a published setting, I'll always have use for a good concept (or perhaps even a few bad ones).
I just noticed I was only reading the first 50 posts. I'm a new poster, but I've been around the boards for a while, and I never noticed that. What an idiot I am. Sorry if my post is horrorably outdated,then.
Do you think I am bashing Eberron? I certainly don't think I am. The original poster just asked why we disliked it and I honestly replied. I believe it to be a black and white starter campaign world that might be good for those people who are just starting out in this game, say for the last 5 years, but for me and my group; it doesnt rock; it doesn't fufill the hype; and it doesnt fill the undiscovered country that this game has yet to explore; If the only thing that people liked about Eberron was the races and other fluff; I would have no problem integrating any of that into mine or any other campaign world, but like I said; perhaps I dont know Eberron as well as all you who live and dream it; with my semi casual interest and looking through various things. I am just dissappointed enough to wait for the next new thing. Perhaps then, I will like it and all of you will hate it; but hey; no biggie.
|
|
...I am just dissappointed enough to wait for the next new thing. Perhaps then, I will like it and all of you will hate it; but hey; no biggie.
No Biggie? Correct!!!
Use it, or leave it - that's all.No need to be hateful so nobody gets hurt.
I never quite understood why such discussions always become a flamewar... :(
I agree with what someone said over on the wizards boards, (paraphased a bit) "the Eberron previews didn't show off the cool stuff, it showed off the different but not so great stuff." Also, I'm not totaly againest other campaigns. After a good deal of carnage in the Second War I started, my players are going looking for a WMD to stop it, but in the process stumble on to a portal to Dark Sun. things from other settings are never useless, it just takes a bit of work. I'm geting pretty tired of this confersation/arguement now. Its like that song "Why Can't we be Friends". **Bursts into Song**
**Bursts into Song**
With that avatar, that song becomes downright frightening... :-P
I've been drawn to Eberron for much the same reason as I'm drawn to Star Wars or Fading Suns, for examples. It isn't a setting that's limited to a single genre. FR and Greyhawk, I've found, work best for traditional fantasy games and don't lend themselves well to shifts in genre (FR as a Western; etc.). The two settings possess a very specific tone and deviations from that tone feel awkward and artificial.
Eberron, by contrast I feel, is somewhat more adaptable. I can run a Spagetti Western campaign one time, then High Adventure the next without the shift feeling foreign. In short, a single setting that accomodates the moods and styles of those at my table is definitely a prize...
I think that the problem with Eberron is that it's lesst Final Fantasy 1&2 and more FInal Fantasy 9&10. less fantasy and more Scifi. If I wanted to play that, I'd go back to playing Rifts.
I think that the problem with Eberron is that it's lesst Final Fantasy 1&2 and more FInal Fantasy 9&10. less fantasy and more Scifi. If I wanted to play that, I'd go back to playing Rifts.
I'm not seeing the FF 10 references, but FF 9 is a good match for it. But is FF 9 really all that "sci-fi"? Not really... the most it's got for sci-fi is airships and mist machines. Eberron doesn't even use machines, it uses elemental-bound crystals to power its airships. Every major advancement in the history in Eberron is done through magic. Sounds like fantasy to me.
LordofXoriat wrote:
**Bursts into Song**
Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
With that avatar, that song becomes downright frightening... :-P
**sings louder** ;)
How do you quote?
How do you quote?
Well, the simplest way is the reply button on the top right side of every post. You can also type {quote="username"} put what they said, paraphrase if needed {/quote} with brackets rather than... er.. these wavy bracket things...
You can also type {quote="username"} put what they said, paraphrase if needed {/quote} with brackets rather than... er.. these wavy bracket things...
Braces. They're called "braces".
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
WotC (Hasbro) are only interested in profit, after all this is the reason why it is a company and not an org. So a 'new' setting (like Eberron) has to be for the 'broad' clientel. And this means Anime, Harry Potter, 'Matrix'-Action and common elements like Elves, Dwarves etc.
While this is true I think it diminishes the PEOPLE who design the settings. Keith Baker created a setting submission for WotC's massive setting search--and it won. I doubt he was only thinking about the market place--I bet he mostly thought the idea was cool and potentially fun. I don't think any of the countless others who have worked on the project to date stand around the water cooler going "How can we drain money off the masses today."
I was more disapointed to find the 'old' races in Eberron, then to find the 'Mecha' (Warforged). To be true, the next time, I see Drow in a Setting I'm going to puke.
Part of the design credo was if it has a place in D&D then it has a place in Eberron. And while the setting has all the old stuff it doesn't always have the same flavor. Have you looked at the Drow of Xen'Drik? Not your average Drizzt knock off.
Braces. They're called "braces".
Thanks. It was rattling around in my head somewhere, on vacation or something...
While this is true I think it diminishes the PEOPLE who design the settings. Keith Baker created a setting submission for WotC's massive setting search--and it won. I doubt he was only thinking about the market place--I bet he mostly thought the idea was cool and potentially fun. I don't think any of the countless others who have worked on the project to date stand around the water cooler going "How can we drain money off the masses today."Part of the design credo was if it has a place in D&D then it has a place in Eberron. And while the setting has all the old stuff it doesn't always have the same flavor. Have you looked at the Drow of Xen'Drik? Not your average Drizzt knock off.
I agree to a certain degree, but on this thread are some people who are quite blue eyed about business. I've read some interview with Keith Baker, who was sorry about the lot of changes he had to do in his setting for WotC and if he had his way, there where no elves, dwarves etc. Like I said I'm quite a nostalgic guy myself, but the moaning of the old times where all things were so much better (and please don't change a thing) making me feel old...very old. I can remember a time, when roleplaying was an outrageous hobby and new ideas came from everywhere, not only explicitly designed settings, where things have to be 'canon'. And yet exactly this seems to be done with the older settings like GH anf FR and already some try it with Eberron.
Firstly I'll start with the negatives about Eberron. People who play keep referring to it as a "fresh new setting" when realisticly its not very fresh at all. Many things seem to have been borrowed from 2nd edition rehashs. Magic in place of technology was touched upon in the "book of lairs" series. To me it seems very Athasy without all the pyramidal angst,or low tech Shadowrun and IMO it'll wind up in the same bin as Dark sun soon enough, when the die hard eberron fans will complain about the setting that killed eberron.
Also its release conspicously coincided near the Iron Kingdoms relase of its RPG, but Privateer didn't have the ability to compete with Hasbro. (for you die hard Eberron fans check out Iron kingdoms, Even if I'm WAYYYY off base on this there will be ideas you can use there.)
Furthermore in Forgotten realms, Greyhawk, and to a lesser degree, Dragonlance, and old school basic D&D there was a certain level of compatibility, The Slavers of Greyhawk could be retouched to be Zhentarium, or Red Wizards easily. The Drow that are tripped over in FR were invented in Greyhawk. This is not the case in eberron.Eberron for the most part will join Dark sun in that corner table of the cafeteria. huddling over their salibury steak and avoiding eye contact with passersby..........
Now I don't see all this as nesscessarily bad. Its a symtem of new faces being drawn into the hobby. In the end Eberron is just a setting no better or worse than any other. It does seem like WOTC are tryign to reinvent the wheel at best, or seperating AD&D from its roots at worst.
So you necro'd a thread from 8 years ago just to say you hate how everything can be of any alignment and that magic is treated as technology? Did someone force you to play in the setting?
I personally love the things that were done with the setting, though I am not a fan of its world. I love the flavor of the setting, but don't care for the world. It is nice to see good orcs, evil elves that aren't drow, lightning-powered trains, walking metal-and-wood sentient golems, CE gold dragons, LG red dragons, evil dwarves that aren't gray-skinned duergar, good ogres, etc. I am tired of the good awesome civilized humans/elves/dwarves/gnomes/halflings and evil primitive tribal orcs/goblins/gnolls/ogres/etc that is in practically every other setting (Golarion included). And the only evil civilized areas are those ruled by evil humans.