Imagine, two Greyhawk books published as a sequel to the successful first releases of Dragon Compendium and Shackled City hardcovers. The marketing could be amazing!
Dragon Compendium II: Legacies of Greyhawk - A collection of Greyhawk material that spans 30 years of Dragon Magazine publications.
Age of Worms - A Greyhawk adventure campaign taking characters from 1st level to 20th level.
(Do you think Paizo bought it?)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The chances of this happening are near zero. Another Compendium might contain a Greyhawk article here or there, but as far as a Greyhawk-themed compendium... based on past experience, that dog won't hunt.
We'd love to do an Age of Worms compilation, and it's a natural for us, but the idea has not yet been approved by Wizards of the Coast.
--Erik
The chances of this happening are near zero. Another Compendium might contain a Greyhawk article here or there, but as far as a Greyhawk-themed compendium... based on past experience, that dog won't hunt.
ouch, really?
Why do I feel like a high school kid who just got dumped?
Ouch. Where's the Greyhawk love, WotC?!?!
I guess that's what happens when the original company changes hands twice...we get two new editions (the second of which wasn't needed), the dropping of several campaign worlds, and two pretty lame excuses for Dark Sun....Yeah I think that's why Greyhawk is kinda going by the wayside. I loved all the old campaign settings and have always wanted some sort of offical content for the 3.0 revision. I was never really thrilled alot of the fan-based content, some of it was just too...bad, in my opinion. That's not to say that they didn't work hard on it, I just don't think any of it fits. When the content was finally released, I was very disapointed. Needless to say, the original vision just isn't there. Sure they did a good job trying to make a product without the orginal authors, it just didn't meet my expectations. Maybe that largest critics of Greyhawk are those in WotC itself?
I don't know, I rambled off-topic a few times there, please forgive me. But yes, a company changing hands a few times could do that :)
Or perhaps the fact that Greyhawk doesn't sell.
Don't get me wrong: I like Greyhawk, too. But when compared to the incredibly successful franchises Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or even the ordinary supplements that WotC puts out, Greyhawk cannot even carry a torch.
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Or perhaps the fact that Greyhawk doesn't sell.
Don't get me wrong: I like Greyhawk, too. But when compared to the incredibly successful franchises Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or even the ordinary supplements that WotC puts out, Greyhawk cannot even carry a torch.
But see, you're getting into one of those useless chicken/egg arguments. Did they stop doing Greyhawk because it doesn't sell? Or, did it stop selling because they didn't give it enough support?
I think the latter is more likely. When they got rid of the original creators, they got rid of the guys who cared enough to put some effort into it. Ed Greenwood and that Eberron guy are still around, working with the company. Say what you want about both of them, they care enough about the worlds they created to keep right on plugging.
And just because I can't say it enough - I pray every day to whatever great powers exist in the universe that Eberron will soon go the way of the Dodo. Of course, the gods will probably keep it going just to spite me.
Exactly, when I mention Greyhawk to most newer gamers, and even some who played AD&D, their response is that they know nothing about Greyhawk, or that all they know of it is that it's just generic fantasy. Had Greyhawk received a novel line and more rule books as FR did, more people would be able to explore Greyhawk.
A GH themed Dragon Compendium would be stricken off my list of D&D Books to Purchase.
I admit, I know hardly anything at all about Greyhawk. And I still don't know much other than the Circle of Eight, a few terms and names and famous places, that's about it.
Now I tried learning some stuff on Greyhawk but, no offense GH-lovers, but I find GH pretty boring. I mean, compared to Forgotten Realms and even Eberron. What's funny was I expected Greyhawk to be more unique than Eberron, but a brand new setting just spanked a classic one? Something tells me there's something wrong with GH then.
I admit I agree with the fact it is most likely because GH isn't receiving much support. But, personally, I'd give it up with the GH even if I was a fan. It's beating a dead horse. Not gonna work.
I am glad that when I needed a campaign setting back in 2E because I had no time to develop my own, that I made the right choice that day (it was between FR, Greyhawk, and Dark Sun...obviously we all know what I went with).
Now Ravenloft is making a return, there's no chance in hell we'll see more GH material. (Better for me anyway since I tied my Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Planescape campaigns into my FR ones).
Now PS, that's a campaign to work on!
We'd love to do an Age of Worms compilation, and it's a natural for us, but the idea has not yet been approved by Wizards of the Coast.
I am going to hazard the guess that WotC will be approving that. I look forward to picking that up as soon as it comes out.
- Neomorte
I have to admit, that over the years, i bought a lot of campaign settings, and while Greyhawk does have a lot of supporters, and a lot of wonderful things came out of the Greyhawk line, most of those things can be transplanted over into any other campaign world with very little tweaking. A lot of good campaigns were set aside and support dropped that had unique feels and styles. Greyhawk comes across as a somewhat generic european feel because it really didn't push any sense of culture in spite of a large number of interacting countries.
Dark Sun had a feeling of culture and difference that hit you from page one of the books and the first gaming session. Planescape took something from the initial books, and made a campaign world that, while some seemed indifferent to, i found totally absorbing and fascinating, and worth deep exploration. Ravenloft managed to add a feel to d and d that had usually only been hinted at before. I have to admit that i never got into Mystara, so i never got the handle on them.
Forgotten Realms did get a full novel line going, and yes, this was a part of how they became successful, but Dragonlance did that as well, and its world was every bit as unique, and it didn't fare as well in support.
Part of it, as much as whether or not it sells well, could well be a business decision based on who one has to interact with to maintain licenses. Greyhawk was originally dropped by TSR because of the falling out between TSR and Gygax, the nature of which is no one's business but theirs, but it had a major impact on the game. I suspect that sales and licensing issues were combined in every decision on which campaign worlds were supported and which were allowed to languish.
But all of them are still out there, and all of them are still playable.
And my campaign world uses aspects of many of them, as appropriate. (end ramble)
I am an OLD school D&D player. I got involved back in the late 70s with the original "blue book" basic set after seeing a article on the game in magazine called Fantastic Films. My oldest brother had the original three white books, which could still be found at the time.
That being said, I never got into Greyhawk. I brothers used the original City State of the Invincible Overlord world setting (Wilderlands and all). Most of the stuff was turned over to me when they got out of gaming years later.
Most of my games were set in a game world that I and two friends created. We drew the world out on a large poster board and worked out the details from there.
It was not until I got into college that I started using a pre-created game world. I had liked the 1st edition Forgotten Realms setting and decided to run the new 2nd edition game in it. Since then, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and the new Eberron setting have been my worlds of choice.
I can understand the love of Greyhawk by some people, but I am not one of them. Back during 1st edition, a number of companies produced setting books compatable with D&D (or AD&D as it was called). For me, it was the Judge's Guild stuff that I have fond memories off. So, something that is strictly Greyhawk would be of limited use. I would prefer to see a more of a mix in the next Dragon Compendium.
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CEO
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Or perhaps the fact that Greyhawk doesn't sell.
Don't get me wrong: I like Greyhawk, too. But when compared to the incredibly successful franchises Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or even the ordinary supplements that WotC puts out, Greyhawk cannot even carry a torch.
Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
Uff-dah! Word from the top...and just what are you doing up at this hour missy?!? (Just kidding! :-D)
I still wanna feel the Greyhawk love, though. *sighs* I missed out completely on that period of D&D history.
Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
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I can understand the nostagia that people feel for Greyhawk, though I am not one of them - I only began to play D&D seriously from 3E, so Greyhawk is a pretty peripheral concern to me (I used to play RQ as my main game when I was a nipper, as I found 1E and 2E D&D clunky). As a high level overview, I don't see anything very definitive about Greyhawk. It seems to me that the "world" of Greyhawk has been cobbled together from a series of basically unconnected adventures by St Gary of Lake Geneva and given a sort of "significance" as a world as an afterthought. Maybe a lot of worlds start that way, but as it is the generic world for D&D it fails to feel very special.
I also think think it, and FR to a slightly lesser extent (especially the western bits of Faerun) suffer from seeming a bit old hat - dodgy Tolkien rip-offs (though again, that's a question of taste - a player in my Eberron campaign is suffering from culture shock as it doesn't feel sufficiently medieval or "fantasy" enough for him, though I think it is actually wilder and more "fantastic" than the more "standard" settings). I'm not saying they are not a lot of fun to play, but they are hardly cutting edge. And FR pips Greyhawk, in my opinion, with the detailed back history that gives the setting a lot of depth.
That said, I understand that lots of people love Greyhawk. It seems a little cruel of WotC to just let it wither away unsupported even if they (for perfectly sensible commercial reasons - and let's face it, none of us want the D&D product line cancelled by the faceless Hasbro corporation because it is unprofitable) don't want to do anything with it. I feel they should let it "run free" with an oranisation that would want to issue products, since there is doubtless a demand. And another company may be more free to innovate and develop the setting in interesting ways.
However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
That just doesn't make sense to me. If that's how the manager at the time saw multiple campaign settings, and if that was thre reason for never releasing a Greyhawk hardcover, then why did WotC release the Wheel of Time hardcover for 3e, and Dragonlance and Eberron for v3.5? Does the manager now still have the same opinion?
My guess is that Wizards of the Coast doesn't want to release Greyhawk products for one or more of the following reasons.
1. It's a legacy setting with too much history and too many elements based on older rules, unlike Eberron which was designed for everything v3.5 (no need for Eberron cracks; everyone has expressed their opinions of the setting already).
2. As a legacy setting, Greyhawk has a lot of baggage in regards to controversy over canon. Too many gamers would get mad over the slightest mistake or the most inane nuances, or completely flip their lids over major changes in canon.
3. WotC thought making it the default setting for 3e would have been an easy way of maintaining support without publishing specific Greyhawk supplements, but then realized having skeletal rules might be the better approach so that anyone can use any of the rules in any setting without struggling with converting the context (i.e. - "Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom" in 3e vs. "Knight Protectors" in v3.5).
4. If Paizo continues publishing Greyhawk material in the context of Greyhawk being a current setting, newer gamers will begin to demand content about this legacy setting (as I did when 3e came about), which is why Paizo uses its "Paizohawk" method of presenting Greyhawk material.
Contributor
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That just doesn't make sense to me. If that's how the manager at the time saw multiple campaign settings, and if that was thre reason for never releasing a Greyhawk hardcover, then why did WotC release the Wheel of Time hardcover for 3e, and Dragonlance and Eberron for v3.5? Does the manager now still have the same opinion?
I think you're assuming that it's been one manager since Lisa was the manager of Greyhawk. Although I don't know for sure (Lisa or Erik could confirm or deny this), I think the brand manager for D&D has changed at least a couple times since then.
Wheel of Time, Like Ghostwalk and d20 Call of Cthulhu, was never meant to be a long term campaign setting. That is more of a "how many people will buy a one shot" gamble than a long term commitment. (yes, I know, there was one supplement for Wheel of Time)
DragonLance is a special case, because I think that this has to do with how people perceived Ravenloft being farmed out. WOTC still sells a lot of DL novels, and when they farmed out Ravenloft, a lot of fans felt that Ravenloft was just treading water and wasn't really "official" in its new incarnation. DragonLance, by having an official Dungeons and Dragons sourcebook, could still be considered official, while it was farmed out to Sovereign Press.
I think you're assuming that it's been one manager since Lisa was the manager of Greyhawk. Although I don't know for sure (Lisa or Erik could confirm or deny this), I think the brand manager for D&D has changed at least a couple times since then.
No, I assumed it was a different manager. When I wrote "manager now" I meant "current manager" as opposed to the "manager then" (as written by Lisa).
And concerning one shot books such as Wheel of Time and Dragonlance, a one shot player's intro to Greyhawk would have been sufficient, and would still be. DM's had the D&D Gazetteer or the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, yet when a DM tries to introduce player to Greyhawk, what do player's have as a reference to the world? Nothing. Something on par with Player's Guide to Eberron would have been enough.
I actually started buying Eberron books just to be at ground zero if I ever decide to play Eberron or run an Eberron game, but then I realized something really imortant. Eberron has so many exceptions to the core rulebooks such as how races are portrayed and how demographics are different. Player's wouldn't easily be able to jump in and dig into the setting. Instead, they have to buy a rather large and relatively expensive book and read through the whole thing to dig up the peices they want to understand more about the world and how their races are portrayed. Player's Guide to Eberron is great at introducing the world, but it doesn't elminate the need for a player to have the ECS. Additionally, players have to "forget" a significant portion of the content in the Player's Handbook because it's different in Eberron.
When started a player who is new to Greyhawk, it's difficult for me to introduce them to the major nations, events, and politics of the world. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has too much information for players to be easily introduced, and the D&D Gazetteer has too little.
As a DM, my only reason for wanting more Greyhawk is for my players. They need material a one stop resource that is easily accessible and that can introduce them to the framework of the setting.
Granted, I could refer them to copies of out-of-print resources such as the 2e Player's Guide to Greyhawk, but they have no incentive to spend money on a seemingly defunt setting.
Seriously, what is so bad about publishing a hardcover player resource that supports the core/default/generic D&D setting?
PS - For the record, I like Eberron as a setting, and I am eager to play it, but the appeal of Greyhawk being default for my players who are all new to D&D worked well for getting them to jump in. This is why, however, I wish there was a player's resource. I faced the same issue when I first started playing 3e D&D in Greyhawk. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil was my first real campaign, and I wanted to know more about where my character would have come from.
I can understand the nostagia that people feel for Greyhawk, though I am not one of them - I only began to play D&D seriously from 3E, so Greyhawk is a pretty peripheral concern to me (I used to play RQ as my main game when I was a nipper, as I found 1E and 2E D&D clunky). As a high level overview, I don't see anything very definitive about Greyhawk. It seems to me that the "world" of Greyhawk has been cobbled together from a series of basically unconnected adventures by St Gary of Lake Geneva and given a sort of "significance" as a world as an afterthought. Maybe a lot of worlds start that way, but as it is the generic world for D&D it fails to feel very special.
No offense to you in particular, but I find it extremely telling how gamers expressing this sentiment almost never have any direct experience with the setting. They haven't sat down and read through a good Greyhawk primer like the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and, more importantly, they haven't had the good fortune of being a player in a good Greyhawk campaign.
There's a lot to be said for not judging a book by its cover. I myself knew nothing about Greyhawk before I picked-up a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 2000, so there's clearly a lot more appeal to the world than just idle nostalgia.
I'd give it a real test-drive with an open mind if I were you. You may be pleasantly surprised.
Suggestion for Dragon Compendium II: why not include in the collection some of the new items, monsters, etc. that make their first appearances in Dungeon? Yes, the content wouldn't technically be Dragon, but why not create a collection of those too?
What About PDF's
If a Greyhawk Dragon Compendium isn't going to be do able since it's not broad enough. Then some PDF's would be nice. GH Collection, FR collection, EB (when there is enough) Collection. If it's just 3.0 and 3.5 that would still be very cool (I think).
Also a collection of all the Dark Sun Articles would be cool, OR how about putting all the parts of Incursion into one PDF.
Just a few thoughts - it would beat going through STACKS of back issues all the time trying to find an article on Feats of GH and Paladins of GH.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Since the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the slimmed down Greyhawk Gazetteer assume that the campaign begins in 591 CY, you can easily use the Player's Guide to Greyhawk or Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins alongside them to start up a good campaign. Those two books are second edition, but neither is really about rules.
The LGG was set in 591 specifically to build off of those two releases.
--Erik
Since the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the slimmed down Greyhawk Gazetteer assume that the campaign begins in 591 CY, you can easily use the Player's Guide to Greyhawk or Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins alongside them to start up a good campaign. Those two books are second edition, but neither is really about rules.
The LGG was set in 591 specifically to build off of those two releases.
--Erik
I have all three and they are great, but I was suggesting was a PDF of the 3/3.5 stuff, like the Feat 2 parter, the Living GH Bright Desert from Polyhedron. Monsters from issue 339 collected into one PDF.
Since the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the slimmed down Greyhawk Gazetteer assume that the campaign begins in 591 CY, you can easily use the Player's Guide to Greyhawk or Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins alongside them to start up a good campaign. Those two books are second edition, but neither is really about rules.
The LGG was set in 591 specifically to build off of those two releases.
--Erik
That's true, and I have recommended Player's Guide to Greyhawk to others.
Still, a single resource that contained regional feats, PrCs, and brief synopses of regions and nations to which DMs could refer players would be extremely convenient for players who are completely new to the world and want to know their options without having to hunt down and buy multiple publications, some of which are out of print.
Face it, no matter how many quasi-solutions or speculative arguments there are, such a book specifically for D&D v3.5 would be a great addition to a Greyhawk player's library.
The chances of this happening are near zero. Another Compendium might contain a Greyhawk article here or there, but as far as a Greyhawk-themed compendium... based on past experience, that dog won't hunt.
We'd love to do an Age of Worms compilation, and it's a natural for us, but the idea has not yet been approved by Wizards of the Coast.
--Erik
Well, that's past experience, and that's only worth so much. If you had asked me or any member in my group a year ago if we would buy such a supplement we would have answered "No". At that time we were running all our games in Forgotten Realms, and although we had heard of Greyhawk we had no thought what-so-ever to run anything in that setting.
Then came first the Istivin triology, and after that... Age of Worms. As a result of that we started looking into World of Greyhawk, and the more we looked the more we got hooked. Now, we've decided to stop using Forgotten Realms, and are running all our games in World of Greyhawk instead.
Personally I think that the biggest selling point for a Greyhawk supplement at the moment is the Age of Worms campaign. I think that there's probably more gaming groups that have started looking into World of Greyhawk as a result of that campaign, and is now looking for more information about that world.
Sure, they can buy Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, but speaking for the international gamers (I'm swedish) I can say that it's not easy to get your hands on overseas. I tried ordering it from Amazon.co.uk, but after getting the order bumped for the third time I finally cancelled it. When I tried to order it from Amazon.com it was listed as out-of-print there and none of the stores they listed as alternatives shipped outside North America. I finally found a seller on E-Bay that was willing to ship to Europe, but that was only after looking hard.