I'd like to see an AP that's 'non-linear.' Meaning that instead of taking the characters from 1-20, maybe you take them from 1-5, then 9-11, then 14-18, etc. That gives the DM some control on where to fold in his/her own adventures and/or other Dungeon goodness. I know it's possible to mix and match with the current AP philosophy, but just makes it easier to 'break the path' and then pick it back up in later levels if there isn't a set adventure for every step in the path. Additionally, you could tie adventures tangentially to such an AP. For instance, when the AP leaves off at level 5, you could suggest other Dungeon or published adventures to fill the gap...thus driving up those back-issue sales... :)
That's exactly what I did. I dropped a few SCAP adventures and substituted my own that suited the players wishes' at that moment. And even then they still sort of felt 'railroaded' into that whole Cauldron story.
Ultradan
I have to disagree with one of those suggestions vehemently. While the guys and Dungeon can sort throught every D&D product that has come out over the last few years, not all of us own every book, and whenever I read the whole, "this monster is suppose to be X, but you can substitute Y" it just feels to me like, either stat X or use Y to begin with. And often Y is, "use an advanced Y, or Y with class levels" so its not a quick insert either.
This isn't just about core products either. Often there is a cool monster from an Eberron of FR book that makes sense and is still generic enough to fit an encounter, but I'm not going to buy an Eberron book if I have no desire to run a game there. Heck, one adventure even had a Gear Golem from d20 Modern, which fit the adventure well, but I would hate to have to assume I need d20 modern products to run this, and in that case, trying to get another construct to subsitute just wouldn't have the same impact.
Creative Director
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We are certainly going to draw upon non-core D&D products for Adventure Path 3, but we'll also not assume you have those books. This means full stat blocks for monsters from MM2, MM3, Fiend Folio, etc. No real way around that, unfortunately.
We won't be pulling in anything from the capstone systems like psionics or incarnum, with the exception of the Epic Level Handbook for some of the elements in the last few adventures.
In fact, we just finished part 2 of our "Hammer out AP3's plot" meetings here. I'm going to be writing up the 2nd draft of the outline, which (if we like it here in house) will be going to Wizards of the Coast for approval hopefully by the end of the week. Once it's approved, we can start thinking about where and when we want to start dropping actually for-real hints about what AP3 is going to be about!
In fact, we just finished part 2 of our "Hammer out AP3's plot" meetings here. I'm going to be writing up the 2nd draft of the outline, which (if we like it here in house) will be going to Wizards of the Coast for approval hopefully by the end of the week. Once it's approved, we can start thinking about where and when we want to start dropping actually for-real hints about what AP3 is going to be about!
Ok James, can I table some thoughts for the next meeting. What I really like is when authors create some backstories for items players find. Whether it be a cirlet of wisdom+2 that has further powers to be revealed at a later date, or twinned shortsword/longswords that when used together crate a sonic boom..I love that stuff. I hate modules where the treasure is plain old 4 fighters each with MW half-plate and longswords+1.
The best modules give the treasure flavour. Whispering Cairn was genious beacuse it wasn't just a 200gp rug, it was a golden lammasu fur worth 200gp. These details matter to me almost as much as an overridding, consistent plot thread. I know some designers can't be bothered to sweat the small stuff but it is what makes an adventure memorable.
I still can to this day quote the contents of various adventure encounters because it wasn't generic. For example, the Orge in the moathouse outside Hommlet had 823cp, 16sp, 3 gp and a small elven cloak, I remembered that off top of my head. Sure I read the module a hundred times of so over last 25 years but point is i wouldn't care about it if it was just 50gp in assorted coinage...
so get some authors that are anal for details and i will be happy. rant over. Oh, yeah, I will buy an annual subscription upon the completion of age of worms if the final 4 are as good as the first 8.
Thought I'd add my two cents since James has had the patience and kindness to read and respond to so many of our postings.
Before I begin, let me just say that I'm a recent subscriber, and I've not played either adventure path. I have an idea of what happens in Shackled City, but no idea how it happens. I've read only the last three adventures for Age of Worms, so what I'm about to say is based entirely upon limited information.
What I'd like to see in AP3 -- that I don't see in Age of Worms -- is some sort of thematic integrity, for lack of a better term. The antagonists presented in Worms are undead led by an evil cleric turned demigod, Kyuss. Wouldn't Kyuss' natural enemies -- and therefore the PCs natural allies -- be clerics? After all, divine affairs are their concern. Instead, the PCs are bounced from one wizard to another. Worms would have been more satisfying to me if the PCs had been aided by a church. Good clerics, bad clerics, whatever. To defeat Kyuss, maybe the PCs would have to find the lost relics and holy scripture of a good church whose influence has waned over the centuries. Or maybe they find themselves allied with an evil church that doesn't want Kyuss ruling the world because they've got world-ruling plans of their own. You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That kind of thing.
Regardless, thanks to everyone at Paizo for their hard work, and thanks to everyone on these boards. It's a great community.
I'd love to see environmental challenges in AP3 too. How about a long travel, crossing thousands and thousands of miles in an continent spanning quest. I was planning an epic campaign arc once in which the PCs had to reach the distant Empire of the Elves in order to warn them of a threat. A campaign like this could include several adventures on (or under) the sea and on long mountain trails, in jungles, deserts, the Underdark...
Would be great to give the rangers and druids something to do.
Great work by the way!
If it was either of those, it would be the first time (that I can recall) that Paizo used a non-WotC product.
I want to see you guys do a Pirates & Ninjas (... & Robots?) theme in the AP. That would make my day! ;)
I want to see you guys do a Pirates & Ninjas (... & Robots?) theme in the AP. That would make my day! ;)
Ninja Golems of the Free City! Watch them destroy the Rhenee Pirates of the Nyr Dyv! Avast, ye maties, there be shurikens off the starboard bow!
=)
...there be shurikens off the starboard bow!
There's... Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow!
There's Klingons on the starboard bow! Scrape them off, Jim!*ahem*
Sorry - Dr. Demento flashback. :D
Staaaaaaar trekkin across the universe!
On the Starship Enterprise, under Captain Kirk!
Staaaaaaar trekkin', across the universe,
Boldly going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse!
*everybody together now!*
There's... Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow!
There's Klingons on the starboard bow! Scrape them off, Jim!*ahem*
Sorry - Dr. Demento flashback. :D
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We are certainly going to draw upon non-core D&D products for Adventure Path 3, but we'll also not assume you have those books. This means full stat blocks for monsters from MM2, MM3, Fiend Folio, etc. No real way around that, unfortunately.
We won't be pulling in anything from the capstone systems like psionics or incarnum, with the exception of the Epic Level Handbook for some of the elements in the last few adventures.
In fact, we just finished part 2 of our "Hammer out AP3's plot" meetings here. I'm going to be writing up the 2nd draft of the outline, which (if we like it here in house) will be going to Wizards of the Coast for approval hopefully by the end of the week. Once it's approved, we can start thinking about where and when we want to start dropping actually for-real hints about what AP3 is going to be about!
About that, how do you go about designing a 1st to 20th level adventure path? So far most of the campaigns I have played in have been a series of seemingly unconnected adventures with no real body or consistency (No, I'm not talking about SC or AoW), reminds me of the Clinton administration...
Anyway, you guys have done a great job on the AP's so far, so how about sharing how you went about coming up with an entire series of adventures like the Shackled City or the Age of Worms?
Just a thought...
I want to see you guys do a Pirates & Ninjas (... & Robots?) theme in the AP. That would make my day! ;)Ninja Golems of the Free City! Watch them destroy the Rhenee Pirates of the Nyr Dyv! Avast, ye maties, there be shurikens off the starboard bow!
=)
I always did like Rhenee Pirates. I know the ship has probably already sailed, but I remember reading a Greyhawk supplement that mentioned a Sargasso sea with numerous ships caught in the Mystical Sargasssum. One ship had a lich, along with the usual Sahuagin, Merchant survivors, etc. That always sounded very, very cool.
My 2 cents.
Mmm...hasn't this been done before - ir maybe it was Aboliths.mind flayers
not just a few--a whole city of them
later modules would take you astral, maybe there would be some githyanki involved tooAre you thinking of the Night Below boxed set?
Sebastian
Probably.
ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES!Too few campaigns make good use of the rules for environmental hazards presented in the DMG. Let's have some scenarios that pit the heroes against the frozen elements, others that find them navigating treacherous mountain paths, and yet another set at sea or another area where drowning is a very real danger. In general, let's get the action outside of the towns and cities and out to places where only the brave or foolish tread.
The problem is this clashes with the desire to have the setting be static so that the NPCs can be a constant part of the campaign. Not that I really care which way one jumps actually.
As long as the plot is either about the NPCs or about really interesting locations I'm on board. Its when these two are flubbed that I get unhappy.
Thought I'd add my two cents since James has had the patience and kindness to read and respond to so many of our postings.
Before I begin, let me just say that I'm a recent subscriber, and I've not played either adventure path. I have an idea of what happens in Shackled City, but no idea how it happens. I've read only the last three adventures for Age of Worms, so what I'm about to say is based entirely upon limited information.
What I'd like to see in AP3 -- that I don't see in Age of Worms -- is some sort of thematic integrity, for lack of a better term. The antagonists presented in Worms are undead led by an evil cleric turned demigod, Kyuss. Wouldn't Kyuss' natural enemies -- and therefore the PCs natural allies -- be clerics? After all, divine affairs are their concern. Instead, the PCs are bounced from one wizard to another. Worms would have been more satisfying to me if the PCs had been aided by a church. Good clerics, bad clerics, whatever. To defeat Kyuss, maybe the PCs would have to find the lost relics and holy scripture of a good church whose influence has waned over the centuries. Or maybe they find themselves allied with an evil church that doesn't want Kyuss ruling the world because they've got world-ruling plans of their own. You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That kind of thing.
Regardless, thanks to everyone at Paizo for their hard work, and thanks to everyone on these boards. It's a great community.
I think this is just the campaign setting's (Greyhawk) roots in 1st edition showing through. Once you get to the top of the pecking order in Greyhawk its all about powerful mages.
Oh, more dinosaurs in the next AP, please - everyone loves 'em, YAY!
Dinosaurs are where its at!
I'd quite like to see:
- Statues which do not, at any point at all in the campaign, become animated, turn out to be golems, turn out to be gargoyles, or otherwise come to life
- An evil religion whose members do not wear robes, nor do they hide out in the city's sewers, nor do they keep undead down there in a secret temple
- An adventure which doesn't spend time making winks, nudges and tips-of-the-hat to the author's favourite 1st edition AD&D campaign
- Patrons other than old, bearded male human staff-carrying wizards, who give the player characters their missions for reasons of personal profit rather than just being nice guys
Haven't been around for a few seconds. Any teasers revealed yet?...
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Creative Director
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Look for the first bits of information about Adventure Path 3 in the editorial for Dungeon #135. Once that issue hits the newsstands, you can expect us to talk a bit more about it on the messageboards. Until then, all I have to say is that the outline has been approved by WotC and that we're currently in the process of assigning chapters to authors.
The problem is this clashes with the desire to have the setting be static so that the NPCs can be a constant part of the campaign.
There was some talk earlier about AP3 having a larger outdoor element to it. I think that you could have both non-static settings with NPC continuity if you're willing to set up some situations where NPCs move along with the party. This can happen through pursuit (NPCs chase party or vice-versa), through infiltration, or if a BBEG tracks the party's progress (scrying, aerial surveillance, etc.) and throws lieutenants at them, or even teleports in at key moments to confront them and teleport out. (Latter kind of encounter would need to be managed as probing--the BBEG is assessing the party, shows up with a number of minions who do most of the fighting, while he stands back and watches; BBEG is probably protected by some sort of contingency spell that pulls him out if he takes any serious hits.
Static settings don't necessarily lead to NPC continuity--since they tend to push the plot toward a series of pitched battles where first you fight the minions, then you fight the lieutenants, then you fight the boss bad guy. The overall coordinators of the AP and the individual adventure writers just need to think in terms of Maoist guerrilla warfare instead of classical fixed positional warfare (when the enemy advances, we retreat; when the enemy advances too far we disrupt his supply lines and isolate him, when the enemy retreats, we harrass him). They should also think in terms of alliance politics (cf. Wheel of Time series or Romance of the Three Kingdoms) where the good guys are aiming at different goals that don't necessarily get the mission accomplished and where some of the seeming bad guys can be useful allies--instead of the quasi-Manichean model used in AOL (bad guys are slightly disunified and occasionally capable of manipulating the good guys, but basically its clear who's on what side). Between guerrilla warfare and alliance politics, you could create a lot of interesting long-term NPCs that are neither clear good guys (Allustan, Manzorian) nor clear bad guys (Lashonna), and where even those who are clearly adversaries hang around for a long time (and maybe advance parallel to the party).
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I'd like more emphasis on roleplaying and skill use. The first AP started well but turned into a series of dungeon hacks. I haven't played the AoW so can't really comment, though the Prince of Redhand looked like a very interesting adventure with the block of roleplaying at the end at the party. As a DM, I get a bit bored with a series of "kill the baddie, take his stuff" adventures - though, as a significant caveat, there are lots of players (incluing some of mine) who love it.
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Creative Director
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Adventure Path 3 will certainly have a stronger wilderness/outdoor element to it than did the first two adventure paths.
With Age of Worms, we also tried to tone down the dungeon crawls and punch up the roleplaying opportunities. I've tried to make sure that each adventrue has a significant portion that'll give players who enjoy role-playing a chance to have fun. The point is to put in stuff for everyone to enjoy, role-players and hack-n-slashers alike.
so...when is the Overload for AP3 going to be available?
it'll be out when it's out
i want it NOW!!
give the dungeon staff a break, they do a good job and this is free bonus material
i don't know you but you must acknowledge my outrage and senses of betrayal and entitlement, waaah!
hahahaha
can we break 700 posts next time pls
:)
I didn't play or read the first AP except for the first or second adventure, but I now have a subscription and I am whole-heartedly into the AoW. I would like to say that I too love roleplaying adventures filled with skill use, although to be honest I thought that the first two posts had somehow infested my mind before I read this thread: my current campaign-in-the-making: Quori aligned with daelkyr, with puppet armies serving as a diversion. I had been thinking about this for about four days, and today I saw this thread and started reading it.
Get out of my head, it's not safe.
Myself, I would like to see the Rod of Seven Parts get more play. Though I have DM'd the 2nd edition Rod of Seven Parts (and still own it....being a packrat pays off), it would be nice to see a new spin on the Rod, and another series of adventures regarding that. Another well known artifact of that caliber would be great also. It would be very very interesting to see a campaign that could place the plot around a very powerful artifact, yet keep the focus on the player characters.
The trend I noticed is that elements of one AP appear in the one following (the Triad cultists, for example).
The bottomline, though, is that I will be pleased no matter what, as Dungeon's AP's have an amazing track record already.
And... PLEASE release AoW in hardcover. SCAP looks so nice on my shelf, but needs a companion! ;)
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Creative Director
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so...when is the Overload for AP3 going to be available?
Well... if we do things right, there won't BE an Overload for AP3. Because we'll plan things better and be able to fit everything into the magazine. If instead you mean, "When will the outline for AP3 be made available?" then the answer is:
Probably sometime later this year to coincide with the first issue containing an AP3 adventure.
I am not sure what an AP is as there is no list of common acronyms and it is considerable blaise to not spell it out the first time you use it, but...
I ran a story like this in my campaign about 2 years ago; the well of life from which all life and natural healing comes from was captured and polluted by bad guys, everyone began healing back undead points though in the bigging no one knew why or any causes; undead could walk the land with no fear of sunlight and undead armies conquered most of the region; which in my game has a greek heroic flavor. Remnants of various armies pooled together on another continent and hire the pc's to investigate various areas, perform scouting missions and seek to find the origin of the problem; during this time the Remnant leaders are gaining allies and building a force to retake the area; the force I had helping them were Egyptian as they were nearby and hate undead. In the end it amounted to a big battle with the pc's fighting bad guy heroes for control of the well of life; which was in a swamp. PC's win; they clean the well and sunlight destroys most of the undead; pc's lose; the fallen in battle become undead and things get worse.
If instead you mean, "When will the outline for AP3 be made available?" then the answer is:
Probably sometime later this year to coincide with the first issue containing an AP3 adventure.
This thread makes me feel like I'm a junkie and your my fix, James. I just want you to know that. =)
I am not sure what an AP is as there is no list of common acronyms and it is considerable blaise to not spell it out the first time you use it, but...
Gotta get out from under that rock, Valegrim :p
The AP is Dungeon's Adventure Path series.
Bumpity bump....I think the people who are in the AP3 thread might want to read this one as well.
Spooky, worryingly spooky!The Styes would make a perfect backdrop for an AP, as Richard suggested, but he's probably talking about his latest backdrop, which I have not read yet, as I'm hoping to play in the AoW someday.
I think a lot of the gritty seaside locations in Dungeon could be revisited in an ocean-going AP. While I don't have Stormwrack, I understand it's a pretty good book, and an oceanborne AP would be a lot of fun.
The military afficionados (I'm one of them, but I don't think a military AP would sell) could be given some fixes in the form of naval battles. There could be some extraplanar and underwater stuff as well.
Arch-enemy for the AP? How about some extremely organized and highly motivated Sahuagin cities seeking to devastate the mainland?
F2K, it seems like you might have been on something back then!!!
If it is indeed confirmed, I can only quote Richard: "Spooky, worryingly spooky!"
Bocklin
Purely accidental, Bocklin. I just like sea adventures. I saw that some posters on the other thread were stating that they didn't think it necessarily going to be an ocean-going AP, but when Richard Pett (who I'm sure knows much more about the AP3) replied that I was spookily close, I figured I was on to something.
Ok, here’s what I’m hoping for.
“The Styes” was awesome, and an AP with that flavour would make me a happy, happy DM.
Take a few pages of China Mieville’s books, a dollop of old-school “Thieves’ World” Sanctuary, an unhealthy dose of H.P. Lovecraft, a slimy chunk of “Night Below”, and a pinch of aberration-ridden Planescape, and you have my ideal AP.
How about a campaign that begins in a run-down seaport, and draws the PCs into conflict with any number of seaborne menaces – Scarlet Brotherhood raiders, pirates, ghost ships, sahuagin, etc. Then on to the really good stuff.
“The Jungle of Lost Ships” is how it was known in the original Greyhawk boxed set - it was renamed the Seagrave in my campaign. Whatever you want to call it, the vast sargasso patch somewhere between Sulward and Hepmonaland was filled with trapped, overgrown vessels from over the centuries. It also happened to be the final resting place of a couple of ships from the Lost Treasure Fleet of the Sea Princes. The idea has been used in a few novels, namely “The Sargasso Ogre” (A Doc Savage novel), and “The Warrior’s Tale” by Allan Cole & Chris Bunch, but mannnnnn, would it make for a legendary adventure site.
Tie the treasure fleet in with an artifact sought by aboleth minions (the Ebon Mirror mentioned in the ‘Codex Anathema’?). Have a means for the PCs to transport their ship from the wide-open ocean to the lightless underdark sea (the Sunless Sea, perhaps?) where the aboleth broods and plots. The Blood Queen and the Elder Evils would have to figure prominently of course, maybe with Tharizdun’s deluded, delusional followers being used as puppets.
Then on to the planes. The Far Realm or Limbo would lend themselves nicely to a high-level aboleth enclave. Carceri would have been great as well, if it hadn’t been used In SC already. Baator is probably the ideal location, however. Literally limitless possibilities for a grand finale. I’m picturing the PCs in a pimped-out plane-jumping ship getting into sea battles on the River Styx or one of the seas of Baator. * whoo *
There’s my two bits. Any thoughts?
P.S. In my campaign, flumphs are known as t’thaggua (*Nod to Lovecraft*), and my PCs respect and fear them. (Although maybe they WOULD respect them more if they had ninja levels.) Now I’m off to rename the C.I.F.A.L. and the protein polymorph...
Spooky, worryingly spooky!The Styes would make a perfect backdrop for an AP, as Richard suggested, but he's probably talking about his latest backdrop, which I have not read yet, as I'm hoping to play in the AoW someday.
I think a lot of the gritty seaside locations in Dungeon could be revisited in an ocean-going AP. While I don't have Stormwrack, I understand it's a pretty good book, and an oceanborne AP would be a lot of fun.
The military afficionados (I'm one of them, but I don't think a military AP would sell) could be given some fixes in the form of naval battles. There could be some extraplanar and underwater stuff as well.
Arch-enemy for the AP? How about some extremely organized and highly motivated Sahuagin cities seeking to devastate the mainland?
F2K, it seems like you might have been on something back then!!!
If it is indeed confirmed, I can only quote Richard: "Spooky, worryingly spooky!"
Bocklin
This is very nice of you but I was talking about a submission called the 'Maelstrom of Sekolah' - a three part adventure arc which featured sahaugin, a place called the Stormlands and lots of monsters fighting monsters with sahaugin battles against mankind and tritons.
Gosh, it's easy to see how conspiracy theories start now!:)
Rich
I see, you're also with "them" and would have us believe that there is nothing wrong, but I know better!!! You won't catch me!!
Bocklin
I appreciate that several of the editors for Dungeon take the time to not only read these boards but are willing to converse with the fans via them.
I'll join in the fun of 'wish lists' and state that I'd like to see one part (or more) of the Adventure Path set in the Sea of Dust. I'd enjoy seeing an accomplished author/game designer flesh out some detailed ruins of the ancient Suel and describe their ancient culture and history in greater detail prior to their fall. I think it would also be fun to incorporate one of the old 1st ed. Greyhawk based adventures as a locale/site where the action in AP3 occurrs, example, something's new and sinister is afoot in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, that wasn't there when everyone went stomping through it 20 years ago. Additionally, very little has been said of Iuz since 3rd/3.5 came about. It might be nice to have him featured in some of this, unless of course we're following the story line of Bruce Cordell's Die Vecna Die where he buys the farm.
I think it would also be fun to incorporate one of the old 1st ed. Greyhawk based adventures as a locale/site where the action in AP3 occurrs, example, something's new and sinister is afoot in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, that wasn't there when everyone went stomping through it 20 years ago.
*MMmmmmmm....* 1st ed goodness... I can picture it now: The Lost Levels of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. TLCoT was one of my all time favourite adventures. I'd love to see it revisited. Nice call, Allen.
If there's a single sahuagin in AP3, my mad vision will be validated, Richard, LOL!! I'll be the next Chloe on Pychic Network (or is it Sidekick Network?)
I hope that other adventure of yours also sees print, because you write some very enjoyable material. Your arch-rival that keeps picking on you does as well.