Dungeon Writer's Guidelines

[jthilo]

farewell2kings wrote:

Through it all, the only constant was the two spaces after a period. Now even that is going away...sniff!

F2K, cheer up. It isn't going away. Besides, I'm right there with you. :-)

Yes, the practice comes from typewriters, but it still applies in some circumstances. Plain text e-mail is often rendered in a monospace font. So is any plain text file you read/write in a terminal window. When the expectation is a monospace font, two spaces after a sentence are good for the same reasons they're good on a typewriter.

For everything else (in the absence of a monospace font), the convention is pretty much defined by the software or markup format being used. Many typesetting software packages use a single space, but not all. Sometimes it doesn't even matter. HTML renderers (which are admittedly not typesetters) don't care if you use one space or a dozen. But then, they often don't render end-of-sentence spacing very well either.

Paizo, please don't just decry two spaces as archaic, because that argument is context-sensitive and in some contexts you're wrong. It makes you seem a bit less credible. One reading of your responses above might be "your style is old and worn out; our new style is what all the cool guys are using". On the other hand, if you tell people why you want a single space (e.g. your typesetting process expects it), you're being rational and reasonable and people will respond in kind.

Tell it like it is and I think you're likely to see more people comply with your request. If they think you're just espousing one valid style over another, be prepared to use that search-and-replace feature a lot. :-)

[Craig Shackleton]

I just wanted to chime in with a thank you to James for doing this. I'm off to download it now.

The old one did me more harm than good I think, because it seemed to shut off my spellchecker. Not that I rely on it exclusively, but it helps!

[Neeklus]

Here's a question: Should we use these guides for any other article, such as Campaign Workbook etc?

[James Jacobs]

jthilo wrote:

Paizo, please don't just decry two spaces as archaic, because that argument is context-sensitive and in some contexts you're wrong. It makes you seem a bit less credible. One reading of your responses above might be "your style is old and worn out; our new style is what all the cool guys are using". On the other hand, if you tell people why you want a single space (e.g. your typesetting process expects it), you're being rational and reasonable and people will respond in kind.

Tell it like it is and I think you're likely to see more people comply with your request. If they think you're just espousing one valid style over another, be prepared to use that search-and-replace feature a lot. :-)

For our purposes, two spaces after a sentance IS archaic. Sure, the practice may still apply in some circumstances, but it doesn't apply to anything submitted to us for publication, so therefore it's just common sense to avoid it when submitting manuscripts to Paizo. I'm not sure how this makes us seem "less credible," and frankly that seems a bit insulting. How does telling our prospective writers what we expect from them harm our credibility?

In the end, it's certainly easy enough for us to find-replace double spaces for single spaces, but we'd rather not have to take this step. If you find that adapting the style of your writing to align more properly with what we're looking for in a manuscript is too much work (or worse, adapting your style of writing is offensive to you), I'm afraid that you'll also find it's more difficult getting your work published in our magazines, especially if we get the idea that you're deliberately trying to be difficult.

[James Sutter]

Plus, every time you put two spaces after a period, God kills a kitten.

[farewell2kings]

Today at work I really tried to only use one space after a period. I got a headache from all the faint feline screaming I heard in the distance, but I will certainly follow Paizo's guidelines as much as I can in the future.

[Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus]

James Sutter wrote:

Plus, every time you put two spaces after a period, God kills a kitten.

::weeps softly::

I've killed millions.

Millions.

[James Sutter]

Yup... we don't make the rules. We just love kittens.

[Mike McArtor]

Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

Plus, every time you put two spaces after a period, God kills a kitten.

::weeps softly::

I've killed millions.

Millions.

Kittens! ::sobs::

[farewell2kings]

Well, the kittens don't die right away BonsaiKitten

[deClench]

Mike McArtor wrote:

Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

Plus, every time you put two spaces after a period, God kills a kitten.

::weeps softly::

I've killed millions.

Millions.

Kittens! ::sobs::

Fluffy! No!! I... I promise to only use one.

[Great Green God]

You know, I'm allergic to cats. So I guess I have mixed feelings about having learned early to use spaces as appropriate to the medium (like when I'm asked to make thinks easier on an editor or for that matter pretty much everywhere else since the advent of the current century). Now believe it or not back in high school I typed my term papers on a typewritter that must have been built in about 1912 so I feel some of you folks' pain, especially considering the amount of pressure I had to apply to the keys on that machine, but really when you're a lowly freelance article writer for a magazine that looks so professional, but caters to a hobby smaller than crosscountry knitting or Simese midget hurling I think it behooves you to take the time and listen to them the first time. Even if they wanted things submitted in yellow crayon on newsprint I really don't see the point in questioning the decision. They are in the catbird seat, have been doing this for a while, and know what they want and need.

GGG

[jthilo]

James Jacobs wrote:

For our purposes, two spaces after a sentance IS archaic. Sure, the practice may still apply in some circumstances, but it doesn't apply to anything submitted to us for publication, so therefore it's just common sense to avoid it when submitting manuscripts to Paizo. I'm not sure how this makes us seem "less credible," and frankly that seems a bit insulting. How does telling our prospective writers what we expect from them harm our credibility?

James, I suppose I didn't come across as clearly as I'd hoped and I didn't mean to twist your knobs, so I apologize that I seemed insulting. However, my point hinged around exactly what you just said: for your purposes it's archaic. Maybe I didn't read correctly but what I saw was someone asking about the use of two spaces after a sentence-ending period and one of your editors responding "no, that's incorrect and archaic". He did not say (and sorry, Jeremy, I don't mean to pick on you, really) "that's archaic in typesetting" (which, of course, it usually is). Maybe this remark simply assumed there are more people who know how typesetting works than there really are. Do you understand how it might have been interpreted to encompass more than Dungeon submissions?

I have to dispute your use of the phrase "common sense" here. :-) It's only common sense if you tell people that that's not how things are done in magazine typesetting. I think it's clear from some of the other responses that this style is in fact not common sense to the many people who learned how to use a typewriter as just another life skill. I suspect there are far more of those people than there are professional magazine publishers (although you wouldn't know it to look at some newsstands!). Following the guidlelines when submitting to your magazine is common sense. Understanding why the guidelines exist without explanation is not.

James Jacobs wrote:

In the end, it's certainly easy enough for us to find-replace double spaces for single spaces, but we'd rather not have to take this step. If you find that adapting the style of your writing to align more properly with what we're looking for in a manuscript is too much work (or worse, adapting your style of writing is offensive to you), I'm afraid that you'll also find it's more difficult getting your work published in our magazines, especially if we get the idea that you're deliberately trying to be difficult.

Hey, an off-hand comment got blown out of proportion by both parties, okay? I agree with you.

At no point did I advocate that your prospective writers ignore the guidelines you set forth. You seem to think I'm criticizing the guidelines or belittling them or something, and I'm not. Typing two spaces is a deeply-ingrained habit in a lot of people, and it's easy to overlook. Many of us do it without even thinking about it. All I mean to say is that if people understand that you and the other editors have to do extra work because of this entrenched habit, then I think at least some of them who would otherwise have missed the difference will expend the extra effort to change it when writing for you, out of simple human decency. I certainly would, you crazy single-spacer, you.

[Steve Greer]

farewell2kings wrote:

Well, the kittens don't die right away BonsaiKitten

Damn, dude. That's just wrong. Not even laughing, man. Maybe someone should "body sculpt" one of those sick f*!!ers!

[Gary Teter]

Steve Greer wrote:

Damn, dude. That's just wrong. Not even laughing, man. Maybe someone should "body sculpt" one of those sick f!%!ers!

Ummm.... You know that's a hoax, right? :-)

[farewell2kings]

It's a hoax, Steve--I'm sorry!!! Here's the snopes on it:

Bonsai Kitten Snopes Entry

Sorry if I offended anyone else, not just Steve....I thought more people knew about this being a sick joke. Something like a bonsai kitten sounds like it was thought up by a bunch of gamers whose horsing around at the game table got out of hand.

[jthilo]

farewell2kings wrote:

Well, the kittens don't die right away BonsaiKitten

And here I was worried about how far off-topic I was going. ;-)

Seen this one?

http://www.toohipfortheroom.com/secret/odds/catglass.jpg

[farewell2kings]

Well, you can't expect to post "God kills a kitten" in a thread and not expect some off-topic responses.

[Steve Greer]

OK, then. To recap. Two spaces bad. One space good. Never heard of any of these joke web sites. Animal cruelty humor. Not so good. Not everyone knows it's a joke, apparently. Got me good, there.

[farewell2kings]

::hangs his head in shame::

I should know better. I equated that site to satire sites like theonion.com, but....I really should have known better.

[Matrissa the Enchantress]

Steve Greer wrote:

deClench wrote:

Just an FYI, in Word you can replace (Ctrl+H) "two spaces" with "one space" for the entire document in one go. How do you think I format all my submissions? ;)

Great tip. Thanks. I love any cheater way of saving work. Any more time saving tips, deClench?

Here's another "Nifty Word Trick" for those who are having trouble kicking the "two-spaces-after" habit:

* Select the Tools > Options menu item
* Select the Spelling & Grammar tab
* Toggle the Check grammar as you type checkbox on
* Click the Settings... button
* Set the value of the Spaces required between sentences drop-down box to 1
* Click OK
* Click OK

Now, as you type, if you enter two spaces after final punctuation, Word places a wiggly green line that means "problem grammar" under the punctuation mark and the following two spaces, instantly reminding you to correct it. It's helped me improve in this area immeasurably.

If you also have trouble with passive voice, the Grammar Settings dialog can be used to turn this, and many other gammar and style checking functions on or off.

Jenni

[Zherog]

I love that feature for passive voice, Jenni. It's been an amazing helper for me improving in that area.

Thanks for the drections on how to add the two space/one space thing to the grammar checker, too. I won't be able to use it, though - unfortunately. I produce technical documents for my employer on the same PC, and they require two spaces after the period. And all those squigly green lines would drive me bonkers. I mean, even more bonkers. ;)

[Llowellen]

James Sutter wrote:

Hey guys-

There have actually been a few last-minute touch-ups on the style guide, so the definitive version should hit tomorrow in all its glory. Thanks!

-James

DO we need a better example of why Dungeon Magazine and this community is the best in the industry?

Thanks a bunch!

Cheers
Llowellen

[teknohippy]

Zherog wrote:

Thanks for the drections on how to add the two space/one space thing to the grammar checker, too. I won't be able to use it, though - unfortunately. I produce technical documents for my employer on the same PC, and they require two spaces after the period. And all those squigly green lines would drive me bonkers. I mean, even more bonkers. ;)

Why not have a seperate user setup where you can have different word default options?

[Zherog]

teknohippy wrote:

Why not have a seperate user setup ...

A who what where? A word thing, or a Windows thing? If you're talking about a Windows user thing - it would be difficult to handle. I do a lot of my writing while I'm actually at work; my job has moments where I have to wait 15-20 minutes here and there, and I use that time to crank out a paragraph or two on various things I'm working on.

If you're talking about a Word thing - I have no idea how to do that.

[Steve Greer]

Zherog, nice article in Dragon. (I think that's you. Right?)

[Zherog]

Which? I had three this month, actually. *grins and blushes* I shared the Initiate feats and spells with "the dragon staff." I also had the Bazaar of the Bizarre and the Warrior Class Act.

If it's one of those you're talking about, Steve, then thanks. :)

-- John

[Steve Greer]

Wow! You did have several. Way to go, busy guy.

[Timault Azal-Darkwarren]

Quick question... we only send queries in for adventures now, correct? So if I have an article idea I can just send that in and see what Mr. Sutter chooses to do with it.

[The Finn]

I went looking around the main Dungeon page for the updated style layout but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a direct link?

[Zherog]

Timault Azal-Darkwarren wrote:

Quick question... we only send queries in for adventures now, correct? So if I have an article idea I can just send that in and see what Mr. Sutter chooses to do with it.

If by "article idea" you mean a Campaign Workbook, then yes.

[Zherog]

The Finn wrote:

I went looking around the main Dungeon page for the updated style layout but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a direct link?

On this page, scroll down to a section labelled "Contribute to Dungeon!" It's right above the Messageboards links. In that section are links to the guidelines and the style sheets.

And for those who are too lazy ( :P ), here's a direct link to the dungeon style word doc.

[Timault Azal-Darkwarren]

Zherog wrote:

Timault Azal-Darkwarren wrote:

Quick question... we only send queries in for adventures now, correct? So if I have an article idea I can just send that in and see what Mr. Sutter chooses to do with it.

If by "article idea" you mean a Campaign Workbook, then yes.

Thanks, Zherog. I did indeed mean Campaign Workbook.

[The Finn]

Zherog wrote:

The Finn wrote:

I went looking around the main Dungeon page for the updated style layout but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a direct link?

On this page, scroll down to a section labelled "Contribute to Dungeon!" It's right above the Messageboards links. In that section are links to the guidelines and the style sheets.

And for those who are too lazy ( :P ), here's a direct link to the dungeon style word doc.

Thank you, I swear I checked before I asked. :D

Thanks for the effort in creating the new sheet as well, it really comes in handy.