So if you've read the Overload you know what the PC's get if they live through (and prevent) the Age of Worms; their own freakin' kingdom. Nice reward, but it might not necessarily work in all campaign settings, like Eberron.
So my question is...for those of us looking down the line and planning conversions already, what have you got planned for your individual "Redhand"s?
For example: I'm thinking Redhand in Eberron will actually end up being Q'Barra. It's the only truly independent nation with any semblance of a monarchy that could be turned over to the PCs without a massive shift in the campaign setting. It's isolated, near where the Spire of Long Shadows is apparently set... it seems perfect. Of course, it's mostly swampland, and then there's the lizardfolk and the Riedran armies...
Then again, Breland has figured prominently in the conversions of the campaign so far. And King Boranel is concerned about who his heir will be, but he doesn't strike me as the type that would fall on his own sword.
I'm interested to see what others are thinking for their own settings' endgame.
So if you've read the Overload you know what the PC's get if they live through (and prevent) the Age of Worms; their own freakin' kingdom.
SPOILERS - SPOILERS
Seems to me like it's going to be quite a minor "kingdom", if one at all.
I don't know Greyhawk so well, so it might be that Redhand is large. But in the Forgotten Realms adaptation notes, Eric has said that it would be "Longsaddle" replacing the Redhand thing. So it will be a minor city of the North. Nothing too big.
I don't know how Keith will do it for Eberron, but the heroes might end up leading a relatively minor city of Breland and will have to report to King Boranel...
Bocklin
Seems to me like it's going to be quite a minor "kingdom", if one at all.
Bocklin
And probably pretty much in ruins after the events of the Adventure Path...
Stefan
Even in Greyhawk, the PCs will really only get control of one city, Alhaster. All of Redhand is overrun by evil forces, as is pretty much all of the former Shield Lands. In all, the forces of the Shield Lands have only retaken two cities back, and the actions of a band of PCs aren't going to suddenly liberate an entire province.
Even then, rule of Alhaster will be difficult. There are evil forces in the city and all around. Prince Zeech has no allies among the bordering nations, and the PCs will inherit that ill will. They will have to quickly find allies that will be willing and able to supply forces and supplies to protect against the impending reaction from Iuz.
The forces will most likely come from Urnst, but who knows. I don't see the Shield Lands providing forces, as they have their own set agenda on where and when to attack. Their military heirachy doesn't seem to bend with the events around them.
As for Eberron, I wouldn't be surprised if they took over a small city in Darguun, but I haven't been following the Eberron conversions at all.
So where would "Alhaster" be in the Forgotten Realms?
Woops. Please correct my first post in this Thread.
Here are the correct FR equivalents (from the web enhancement of Dungeon #124):
Greyhawk / FR
Magepoint = Longsaddle (in the North)
Alhaster and Redhand = the Western Heartlands
So I really don't know what it would mean for the heroes surviving the final episode of the saga. Obviously they can't end up as "leaders of the independent nation of the Western Heartlands [Redhand]" (to quote the AoW Overload). It does not make much sense, the WH being this area of various cities and settlements without common leadership...
So I still think that the heroes would end up leading a medium sized city of the Western Heartlands. But we will see.
Bocklin
I had a big brainstorm about what's going to happen in my Greyhawk AOW campaign when Red Hand, formerly a tiny evil principality under nominal fealty of the very evil empire of Iuz, is suddenly ruled by a Hieronean paladin (assuming said PC makes it through the next 10 1/2 adventures alive). Redhand is a small rock, but it could make ripples across the whole lake. At the least, the news of its sudden fall to the forces of good will bring embassies from half a dozen powers seeking to turn this event to their own good, and the Old One himself will probably take notice, whether or not he can get his minions to stop squabbling long enough to mount a serious attack. (He might try the corruption route instead). Anyway, without putting all the political details up, this could lead to an interesting follow-on campaign, with the option of doing near epic level diplomacy/spying/roleplaying or having players roll up some lower level players to do a warfare & spying campaign.
As well as I know the rules (I like to think I tell an equally good story), I know very little about Forgotten Realms, even less about Greyhawk, and next to nothing about Eberron.
So, I hope that as the adventures are published, Dungeon authors fill people like me in on how the lands (we play Greyhawk) are loosely organized, both politically and geographicly.
I found it quite difficult understanding the Overload document- So you set up this 'frontier kingdom' for half a dozen adventures, assume your PCs like and will want to keep it, and then (after they've beaten hell out of a demigod thing), the ruler (a fallen paladin who half of my PCs will want to be and the other half will want to smite down) just challenges one of them to a battle and kills himself?
Boy, I'm not sure if I can score initiative against my players to say "anticlimax" before they do.
I believ Redhand is actually one of the old Bandit Kingdoms rather than a part of the Shield Lands. Its on the opposite side of the Rift from most of Iuz's concentration of force so it probably doesn't get much attention. But it's definitiely a backwater, little place considering it was kind of a no-man's land overrun with criminals even before Iuz got rolling.
So probably no Shieldies running to the rescue. And I doubt Iuz has much time to spare with a place he never had much use for anyway. Then again, maybe he'll send an invading army and give some 20th-level PCs something to do.
If memory serves, Redhand was once part of the Shield Lands, but broke away and became a "bandit" kingdom shortly after Zeach came to power. When Iuz invaded the area, Zeach signed on. In a way, Zeach saved his people from the fate of the Shield Lands, or at least so he tells himslef when he's trying to feel like a good guy. It does add some interesting deapth to his character.
I'm running the Age of Worms in Eberron.
My Redhand is none other than Karrnath. The 'prince' is going to be King Kaius himself, with Lashona being replaced with Lady Vol.
Hey, it fits... the PC's probably won't be taking over the kingdom (given that they consist of two Brelanders, a Thrane, and two Aerenal elves) but will probably root out the blood of Vol in Karrnath and undo Kaius' vampirism.
I found it quite difficult understanding the Overload document- So you set up this 'frontier kingdom' for half a dozen adventures, assume your PCs like and will want to keep it, and then (after they've beaten hell out of a demigod thing), the ruler (a fallen paladin who half of my PCs will want to be and the other half will want to smite down) just challenges one of them to a battle and kills himself?
Boy, I'm not sure if I can score initiative against my players to say "anticlimax" before they do.
I think the climax is supposed to be when the PCs battle Kyuss underneath Alhaster. The thing with Zeech is more like the epilogue. The campaign is basically done once Kyuss is defeated. "So now what?" Well they get this little principality to rule over from which they can launch new adventures.
I don't think it's anticlimactic per se, considering he's not supposed to be a threat. It is a good point for the PC's to sit back and say "Wait a minute...should we fight this guy? Why is he doing this? We're obviously more powerful than him; I mean, we did just slay a burgeoning DEITY, right?"
I'll admit, Kaius was where I first wanted to go with the 'fallen ruler of rogue nation' in Eberron, but that was when I was thinking Kyuss could be Vol. I think it's more interesting in Eberron just to make the PC's a new ruler on the scene, and Q'Barra doest that in spades. It involves them completely in the political mess after the Last War, plus the possible Riedran threat; not to mention you've got a huge swamp full of lizardfolk possibly at the beck and call of another corrupted dragon.
Another option besides giving up the whole kingdom is to just award land in your country o' choice. In Eberron, Breland makes a great place because of all the work the PC's have done rooting out the Ebon Triad in that country.
If memory serves, Redhand was once part of the Shield Lands, but broke away and became a "bandit" kingdom shortly after Zeach came to power. When Iuz invaded the area, Zeach signed on. In a way, Zeach saved his people from the fate of the Shield Lands, or at least so he tells himslef when he's trying to feel like a good guy. It does add some interesting deapth to his character.I believ Redhand is actually one of the old Bandit Kingdoms rather than a part of the Shield Lands. Its on the opposite side of the Rift from most of Iuz's concentration of force so it probably doesn't get much attention. But it's definitiely a backwater, little place considering it was kind of a no-man's land overrun with criminals even before Iuz got rolling.
So probably no Shieldies running to the rescue. And I doubt Iuz has much time to spare with a place he never had much use for anyway. Then again, maybe he'll send an invading army and give some 20th-level PCs something to do.
My thoughts were that Iuz might pay more attention if an openly declared enemy got a toehold in the bandit kingdoms--certainly his local satraps in Balmund next door would, and possibly their superiors at Riftcrag, who might have heard rumors of the PCs' exploits in the Wormcrawl Fissure. The plot would develop slowly--first with threats and/or attempts to win the new ruler over to Iuz, then with minor military activity, and finally, the possibility of a war. This last would depend very much on what diplomatic alliances the new prince made with outside powers. Iuz's minions will certainly be contesting to see who can bring Redhand back to the fold, and thus earn favor with their master . . .
This is where the shield lands comes in--Redhand/Alhaster used to be part of the Shield Lands, and when news arrives in Critwall, the Knight Commander is torn between competing impulses to demand that Alhaster "return to fealty" and to be more diplomatic--an alliance with the new prince of Redhand could help the Shielding reconquer Axeport, advancing on Iuz's forces there along two fronts. This in turn would cut the Old One's forces on Admundfort Island off completely and make the Nyr Dyv, once again, a preserve of the forces of Good.
Meanwhile, the Countess of Urnst sees the regime change in Redhand as a chance to maneuver against Iuz's forces in Balmund and perhaps restore her relative, the rightful ruler of the Bandit Kingdom known as the Duchy of Artonsamay--i.e. Redhand would serve as the C. of Urnst's proxy without requiring Urnst to go to war openly with Iuz. Redhand's help might also be useful in supporting Duke Ehyeh's quest to regain Tenh, which would please the Countess, but she doesn't want an open war with Iuz or Stonehold over it.
Other nearby powers, like Furyondy, Greyhawk, Dyvers, and the Duchy of Urnst, may have their own diplomatic agendas, or may just want to get trading concessions in exchange for loans allowing the new prince to buy some much needed mercenaries to bolster his army (what's left of Zeech's force has been deserted by lots of the more devout Hextorians who used to serve in it, if the new ruler is openly patronizing a good deity).
Alhaster is a small place, but located where the Artonsamay empties into the Nyr Dyv. It has both economic potential and strategic significance, and a regime change there could even spark "The Second Greyhawk War" if the PCs don't play their cards right. And there is lot's of potential for a great "spy campaign" even if they do, with the PCs maneuvering covertly to ally with discontented elements in the Bandit Kingdoms and the forces of Iuz maneuvering to subvert Alhaster.
After re-reading the Overload, I discovered that the AoW "Alhaster" will be "Starmantle" in the Forgotten Realms. Fits well: some godforsaken, lawless city overrun by monstrous humanoids.
If the PCs manage to bring order to that city they will have deserved ruling it! If that's possible.
Bocklin
Well, by now the heroes probably have access to both scrying and safe teleportation magic. So it should not be too much trouble to "hop" to Starmantle without mishap.
Or one could have them travel overland a bit and add a couple of random encounters (in case they had been lagging behind in terms of XP).
But what do you mean: are you running AoW around Starmantle (instead of Waterdeep) or is your other campaign in Starmantle?
Bocklin
Perhaps I missed it up above, but where's the Wormcrawl Fissure supposed to be in the Realms? I can't help but think of the image of a giant crater, like in FFVII.
Yes, I use the roman numerals. Yar.
Off the top of my head, I think Eric made it the Skull Gorge. But you'd have to check the Overload.
Bocklin